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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: The Conservative Movement: From Failure to Threat
Source: Rockwell
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 19, 2008
Author: Paul Craig Roberts
Post Date: 2008-05-19 09:39:44 by ghostdogtxn
Keywords: None
Views: 2116
Comments: 154

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#115. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#70)

Is there a difference between a Marxist and a Fascist? Definitely. Does it mean that I'll be voting for one or the other? Definitely not.

Accepting your straw man, let me raise you one so that we have two.

The scenario is this. You have preteen kids and it's very likely that their future environment is going to be either communism or fascism. These are the only choices, nothing else is possible because nothing else would be considered by 98% of your fellow citizens but you do have the ability to peacefully select one of the two and help tip the balance to favor one or the other.

Knowing that your kids future depends on it, are you going to do nothing and express superior indifference because you believe that it doesn't matter which camp wins because, you say, one is the mirror image of the other?

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-19   22:05:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#115)

This would be the moment when men should fight the system for themselves, their freedom and their children. I'd be ready to kill. Would you?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-19   22:08:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Jethro Tull (#116)

So you're going to drop a third straw man into the soup?

Like I said, 98% of your countrymen can't see any other possibility. It's either communism or fascism as far as they can comprehend. If you get yourself violent you'll just end up in a straight jacket and your kiddies are going to be worse off for that because they'll be raised in an institution.

Dr. Lenin gave a lot of thought and worked hard at developing the science of revolutions. He was pretty good at it. Lenin would never advocate that people go postal on their own. They stand no chance to win anything and all they get is hatred, ridicule and kicks in the groin from their fellow consumers.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-19   22:25:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#117)

I'm perplexed as to why you Obama supporters try to talk to us. Do we seem so easy to convince? Or is it the challenge we present?

buckeye  posted on  2008-05-19   22:27:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: buckeye (#118)

'us'? Who is 'us'? Who is 'we'? I am only speaking for myself. Are you speaking for some group?

As for why do we talk about things on this forum... well... isn't this a forum where discussions and debates are supposed to take place? What do you suggest should happen here?

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-19   22:31:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Hayek Fan (#112)

I am unaware of any GOP supporters on this site.

Posters have posted of their hopes that Hillary will miraculously come back to beat Obama. Some posters have even posted outright that they prefer McCain to Obama.

Both preferences indicate a willingness to continue Bush-Clintonism for 4-8 more years rather than take a chance on a President Obama.

Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.

Arator  posted on  2008-05-19   22:32:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#119)

Are you speaking for some group?

Yes, the ones who'll vote for Obama when hell freezes over.

I don't mind you talking to us. I just wonder if there's a point. You might be bored?

buckeye  posted on  2008-05-19   22:33:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: buckeye (#121) (Edited)

I am tempted to say that your intervention is rather boring but I will not say that. It is interesting to observe that someone who posts on a site dedicated to discussions and debates finds that discussions and debates are uncalled for and boring.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-19   22:36:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#122)

I don't deny the boring part!

buckeye  posted on  2008-05-19   22:39:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Jethro Tull (#114)

ah..one of my very favorite oldies.

christine  posted on  2008-05-19   22:42:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Dakmar (#108)

The R party was infiltrated by a bunch of Marxist creeps who, with the backing of Marxist Media hijacked the very definition of Conservative; so that renders the original theory inoperative and the hijackers the fucking heroes?

good way to put it

christine  posted on  2008-05-19   22:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: Hayek Fan, James Deffenbach (#112)

"if you don't vote for George Bush you're a liberal?"

That stupid remark never worked when the republicrats on TOS1 and TOS2 tried it and it sure the hell isn't going to work when you or the other democans on this site try it.

it's absolutely galling. we are not the ones who have changed. they have...and we're for mcCain and brownshirts.

christine  posted on  2008-05-19   23:04:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Jethro Tull (#89)

A clumsy wannabe provocateur at best.

Exactly.

"HOLODOMOR" is Ukrainian word for "FAMINE-GENOCIDE"

angle  posted on  2008-05-20   6:45:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Dakmar (#103)

Now...how to use them?

Call on the Universe to act on your behalf in vanquishing the perps. The perps can be chosen individually or collectively. Allow the Universe to respond without directives from you. Spoken word is even more effective than thinking alone. Two people using their powers together is very effective. Choose your words carefully and say at the end something like "with the highest good and in a perfect way."

Try it.

"HOLODOMOR" is Ukrainian word for "FAMINE-GENOCIDE"

angle  posted on  2008-05-20   6:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Dakmar (#106)

The meek may someday inherit the earth, but it won't be in my lifetime.

I dissolve those words for you. Words and thoughts are powerful. Choose them with care.

"HOLODOMOR" is Ukrainian word for "FAMINE-GENOCIDE"

angle  posted on  2008-05-20   6:59:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: James Deffenbach (#109)

or seemed to

Therein lies the nut. The players are showing their hands.

"HOLODOMOR" is Ukrainian word for "FAMINE-GENOCIDE"

angle  posted on  2008-05-20   8:32:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Jethro Tull (#97)

I just posted Bob Barr's comments on 4um. Let's see if there's a reaction.

And virtually nobody reacted. To the truth. From Bob Barr, not me.

I guess the truth hurts.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with posting on another forum?

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-20   10:14:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Jethro Tull (#110)

James, elitists liberals have taken issue with me when all I've done is wish socialist, worldwide, failed to wake up in the AM. I had always thought we were on the same page with that one. Obviously frauds walked among us.

Yes, that seems pretty clear.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   10:22:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: angle (#130)

Therein lies the nut. The players are showing their hands.

Yes. The people who want to see America make its last trip around the bowl are pretty easy to spot. Instead of acknowledging there isn't anything to vote for, at least not on the D and R ticket, they fall all over themselves to front for one of the most liberal communists in Washington. One who wants to tell them how much or how little they can eat, how much gas they can use and what to set their thermostats on. How freakin' pitiful is that?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   10:37:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Ragin1 (#113)

James I believe these people have reached the limits of what they will discern. After that they don't want to hear anymore. They don't want to see anymore. They don't want to do the dirty work necessary to reclaim our freedoms. They have had the insights and the discoveries and have come to the conclussion that they or nobody can do a thing about it within the system. They are weak. They are more dispicable than the plain ignorant who really cannot see what havoc they are supporting.

Those are wise comments. I think you are correct. At least ignorant people have an excuse and if they are not WILLFULLY IGNORANT they can be cured of that. But stupid is forever and there is no cure.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   10:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: aristeides (#131)

And what, pray tell, is wrong with posting on another forum?

Nothing. In your case please do it early and often.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-20   10:40:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: christine (#126)

it's absolutely galling. we are not the ones who have changed. they have...and we're for mcCain and brownshirts.

Funny how that works, isn't it? Some of us are still pro America and pro liberty and we get the nazi label attached to us by people who support a communist. I asked one a while ago what color the sun was on his home planet.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   10:41:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: James Deffenbach, Ragin1 (#134)

have come to the conclussion that they or nobody can do a thing about it within the system

I agree that the system today is unworkable and not redeemable.

"HOLODOMOR" is Ukrainian word for "FAMINE-GENOCIDE"

angle  posted on  2008-05-20   11:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#115)

How is pointing out the fascistic side of McCain and the Marxist side of Obama a strawman?

And you haven't told us why, when given a choice between a Marxist and a Fascist, we have a duty to vote for the Marxist.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-05-20   11:26:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#138) (Edited)

That's strawmanning in action. Obama is not a Marxist and McCain is not a fascist. Unless you have some evidence that Obama is into class warfare, the dictatorship of the proletariat, the banning of religion, the expropriation of all means of production and, if he is to take a Leninist enhancement, the imposition of revolutionary terror.

Now, I'm giving it to you to demonstrate why McCain is not a fascist and thus burn both of your poorly-built straw men.

By the way, since you claim that you dislike both Marxism and fascism, can you tell me why you do? I am curious and I hope that you don't use these words just because they carry some bad connotations without having some clear ideas of what they are about.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-20   11:43:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#139) (Edited)

Taking away Peter's money to pay Paul is the core of Marxist social and economic policy. Obama takes this to a new level. Not only does he want higher taxes so that Americans with money can pay for American welfare recipients, but he supports a Global Tax so that we can have the pleasure of paying for third world dregs too. Obama's internationalism - the very idea of a global tax and global authority in place of national sovereignty is also Marxist to the bone.

And when it comes to Class Warfare, perhaps you've noticed that among modern Marxists, race has taken the place of class, with blacks and other minorities taking the place of "the proletariat" and whites taking the place of the "bourgeoisie". Every New Left and neo-Marxist supports Afrocentrism and "sticking it to whitey," as do the people that Obama surrounds himself with.

As for McCain, what other than fascism can describe a worldview that relishes permanent wars and occupations in the name of "national greatness" and "national honor?" McCain seems to want war for its own sake. How are his views on US empire any different than Mussolini's stupid propaganda about reconquering the whole Mediterranean and resurrecting the Roman Empire? McCain also supports expanding the powers of the police state ("Patriot Act") and continuing the crony partnership between megacorporations and the government, his domestic agenda rounds off his fascist credentials.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-05-20   11:56:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#140)

Taking away Peter's money to pay Paul is the core of Marxist social and economic policy.

Wrong! It is not.

The brief and vulgarized description of the Marxist economic policy is: solving all problems by 'expropriating the expropriators' and transferring ownership of all means of production to the society at large with the manager being the socialist state during the socialist phase (communism to follow). Socialism of the Marxist kind is not about taking for Peter to pay Paul because there's nothing that Peter still has that Paul would want. Both Peter and Paul now work for a state-owned and controlled entity. And, by the way, there are no welfare queens. Work is mandatory, avoiding work is criminal and those at the top are not wealthy in the way of Bill Gates. What they hold is not money or assets but power. The only way to hold power is to constantly and frequently demonstrate loyalty to the state or all can collapse in an instant because when they lose power they are left with nothing.

The 'taking from Peter to pay Paul' thing is not Marxism. It's 'welfare state capitalism'. If you want to call Obama a welfare state capitalist, you'd probably be close to the mark. Marxist, he is not.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-20   12:26:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#141)

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

A workers paradise!

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-20   12:29:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#141) (Edited)

I'm not talking about Soviet-style Communism or Maoism. There are different versions of Marxist ideology out there, and I'm dealing with the one that is relevant today - neo-Marxism and the New Left. As I said in my post, race has taken the place of class for the New Left, so instead of class warfare, you get the Afrocentric race warfare of Obama's pals.

And the New Left has pretty much made peace with private property, as long as they get to tax and regulate while the welfare queens get a big slice of the pie and minorities enjoy special priveleges.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-05-20   12:31:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: aristeides (#131)

And what, pray tell, is wrong with posting on another forum?

Nothing at all. And I strongly encourage you to spend ALL your waking moments doing just that.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   13:40:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: James Deffenbach, Jethro Tull (#144)

And I strongly encourage you to spend ALL your waking moments doing just that.

Funny. When I encourage Jethro Tull just to refrain from one particularly objectionable kind of posting, he accuses me of censorship.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-20   13:44:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: angle (#137)

I agree that the system today is unworkable and not redeemable.

I agree with you. As it is currently configured with crooks holding the coding for the voting machines with no verifiable paper trail and only those "acceptable" to the bankers running,* it is not redeemable.

*If I need to clarify I can say that I know Ron Paul is his own man and everyone can see how he was marginalized even though he raised more money than almost anyone running on the R ticket. The establishment, those who control it, saw to it that Ron would never be heard that much.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   13:44:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: aristeides (#145)

Funny. When I encourage Jethro Tull just to refrain from one particularly objectionable kind of posting, he accuses me of censorship.

Yeah, but then he didn't say what you accused him of saying either.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-20   13:48:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: James Deffenbach (#147)

That is very much a matter of opinion.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-20   13:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#143)

I'm not talking about Soviet-style Communism or Maoism. There are different versions of Marxist ideology out there, and I'm dealing with the one that is relevant today - neo-Marxism and the New Left. As I said in my post, race has taken the place of class for the New Left, so instead of class warfare, you get the Afrocentric race warfare of Obama's pals.

Okay, so you take some New Age mumbo-jumbo, you call it Marxism and then you attach it to Obama because 'Marxist' sounds bad and it rhymes well with 'fascist' which you attach to McCain and then you claim that they are indistinguishable.

It's a very daring act of acrobatics but it's quite meaningless, as far as real life is concerned.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-20   14:30:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#149)

The German Social Democrats of the Wilhelmine and Weimar periods called themselves Marxist. History shows that they were committed believers in liberal democracy, certainly a lot more so than the German fascists who called themselves Nazis, or even than a lot of conservatives who went along with the Nazi regime. And, when German liberal democracy was restored after World War Two, those Social Democrats played a large role in restoring it.

There are all sorts of Marxists.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-20   14:35:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: aristeides (#150)

True, the Socialist Internationale claims that Marxism is at its roots. A number of West German prime ministers were Social Democrats and there were French presidents, British prime ministers (the Labour Party) and Italian premiers that were Socialists as well.

Somehow, when someone accuses Obama of Marxism, they don't think that he is in any way like Harold Wilson or Willy Brandt.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-05-20   14:46:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: James Deffenbach (#134)

I don't like to admit this James, but in the sake of honesty and clarity, they is we. Just by paying taxes or buying their product, we torture the children in Iraq. We turn Iraq/Afghanistan into stone age civilizations. We starve the Palestinians. We give no bid contracts to the elites private army. The list goes on and on. Very few are the men/women who live off the grid.

So we are left to vote for the Bush cartel, (clinton/mccain), or the war mongering progressive. At the moment I'll do what I have the courage to do. I'll write in Ron Paul.

Ragin1  posted on  2008-05-20   23:31:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Ragin1 (#152)

I will probably vote for Chuck Baldwin assuming the Constitution Party makes it on the ballot in my state. I know from little local elections that they don't even count write ins (they don't show up in the totals and the candidates who have been written in are never shown to have received any votes). So it would be a waste of time, at least in my case, to write anyone in. Maybe it is different where you live--I think they should have to count every vote but unfortunately that is not the way it works. If I knew the vote would count I would write Ron in too.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-21   7:31:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: angle (#129)

The meek may someday inherit the earth, but it won't be in my lifetime. - Dakmar

I dissolve those words for you. Words and thoughts are powerful. Choose them with care.

I keep forgetting about these awesome powers of mind control I possess. Yes sir, I'll just have to buckle down and try do better from now on by golly,

And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot

Dakmar  posted on  2008-05-21   19:23:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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