4um: Is the NYCPD Pension a Socialist Redistribution Scheme?

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Title: Is the NYCPD Pension a Socialist Redistribution Scheme?
Source: Comprehensive Annual Financial Report of the NYCPPF
URL Source: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycppf/pdf/cafr2007.pdf
Published: May 20, 2008
Author: Liberal New York City Dwellers
Post Date: 2008-05-20 19:54:53 by Arator
Keywords: RNYCPD, Socialist, Parasites?
Views: 323
Comments: 38

On page 172 and 173 of the source document linked above are tables showing the revenue sources and expenses of the New York City Police Pension Fund.
In 2007, member contributions to the fund totaled $132 million. That sounds respectable, until you look at the contributions made by the City (ie NYC taxpayers):
$1,544,341,000!
That's $1.544 BILLION, folks. Overall, NYC taxpayers chipped in 55.8% of annual covered payroll into the NYC Police Pension Fund in 2007. Members? Only 4.78%.
Holy Obama-style socialism, Batman! That's a MASSIVE redistribution of wealth from the taxpayers of NYC to the boys in blue.
Poster Comment:
Damn, if I were a retired NYC police officer, I'd be more careful summarily condemning socialism, socialists or libertarians who plan on voting for a socialist in the fall in order to expedite the demolition of the GOP's fascist freakshow. ;^)
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#1. To: Arator (#0)
Holy Obama-style socialism, Batman! That's a MASSIVE redistribution of wealth from the taxpayers of NYC to the boys in blue.

Do you have any idea how many cops there are in NYC????

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 19:56:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#2. To: a vast rightwing conspirator, Jethro Tull (#0)
The conversation continues...
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2008-05-20 19:58:51 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#3. To: Arator (#2)
Do you know the number of NYC police and do you know the State laws under which their pension system is structured?

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 20:07:54 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#4. To: Arator (#0)
They're really going to be pissed when they realize their pension's been stolen.
"HOLODOMOR" is Ukrainian word for "FAMINE-GENOCIDE"
angle posted on 2008-05-20 20:10:59 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#5. To: Arator (#2)
Jealousy will get you nowhere.
I'm retired since '82, and still pay nearly 5%. Is that what your numbers show? And how is 100% reached? I see 55.8% and 4.78% How is 100% reached?
The city, much as any private 401K, matched every dollar I put in with two of theirs. Nothing socialistic there.
Enough about my personal life. Lets get on to yours. Is it true both you and the poster known as ... are both in your 40s, and still single? How did a couple of studs like you duck the ladies for that long?

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:11:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#6. To: Jethro Tull (#5)
Arator has proven himself lately to be lite in the loafers, a white guilter and easily led by others on 4um.

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 20:17:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#7. To: Cynicom (#3)
Do you know the number of NYC police and do you know the State laws under which their pension system is structured?

If you check the source tables, you'll see that taxpayer contributions have consistently dwarfed member contributions. Over the last 10 years, taxpayer contributions to the NYCPPF have exceeded member contributions by a factor of 8!
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2008-05-20 20:19:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#8. To: Arator (#7)
Do you know the numbers and the laws that dictate the system???
Either you do or you are a BS artist.

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 20:20:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#9. To: Arator (#7)
Here Liberace

As a Tier I (Article II) or Tier II (Article IIA) member, you contribute a percentage of yearly earnings through payroll deductions to the 20-year plan. In order to receive maximum pension benefits, contributions are required for the first 20 years of allowable police service. Contributions may be made thereafter on a voluntary basis. The amount one contributes is based on age at appointment. Employee contributions and interest earnings on them are referred to as "accumulated deductions.61; The amount of accumulated deductions including interest earned on those contributions that should be in the Fund at the member's 20th Anniversary is referred to as your required contributions. Since December, 1989, your regular contributions are not subject to current federal income taxation as per section 414h of the IRS Code, but are subject to current state and local income taxation. Contributions made before December, 1989, were subject to federal taxation. However, all interest earned is federally taxable.
VOLUNTARY EMPLOYEE CONTRIBUTIONS
Members may make additional employee contributions on a voluntary basis equal to 50% of the certified rate of the required employee contributions. These contributions are not covered by section 414h of the IRS code and therefore are subject to federal income taxation. If withdrawn at retirement, these funds are not subject to taxation (tax- free) because they have already been taxed. If these additional contributions are not withdrawn at or prior to retirement, they will provide you with an additional annuity at retirement, provided you do not have a shortage in your account.

ITHP CONTRIBUTIONS
Along with making employer contributions to the Police Pension Fund, the City of New York also contributes toward a portion of your employee contributions. These contributions called--Increased-Take-Home-Pay or -ITHP- currently are equivalent to 5% of your gross salary. For example, let's assume your full employee contribution rate would ordinarily be calculated as 7.5% of pay. With ITHP in effect, you contribute 2.5% and the City of New York contributes 5%. (Effective October 1, 2000, the 2.5% amount represents the required contributions.) You may elect to waive the ITHP reduction and contribute an additional 5% of your gross salary. These contributions are in addition to your normal pension contributions and would not be subject to federal taxation as per Section 414h of the IRS code. Election of this waiver would not reduce the ITHP contributions of the City of New York. View information that will aid you in understanding ITHP a little better*.

HOW CAN YOU REDUCE YOUR PAYROLL DEDUCTIONS
If you desire to increase your take home pay, you may elect to reduce your required employee contributions by the amount required for federal Social Security (FICA) contributions. Should your required employee contributions are less than your FICA contributions, by electing this option; you will not be making any contributions to the Police Pension Fund.
For example, let's assume you are normally required to contribute 2.5% to your retirement plan, and you are required to pay 7.65% of your salary to Social Security (FICA), by electing this option, you would no longer be making employee contributions because they are less than your FICA contributions. Should your employee contribution rate is greater than the FICA rate; you would be contributing the difference to the retirement plan.
Should you elect this option, your Social Security benefits will not be affected. However, the value of your retirement allowance will be reduced because it is based in part on your required employee contributions and the associated interest.
During any calendar year after maximum Social Security (FICA) contributions have been matched, pension contributions will resume until the end of the year.
To reach the maximum benefits, contributions are required for the first twenty (20) years. They are voluntary thereafter.

EXCESS CONTRIBUTIONS IN POLICE PENSION FUND TIER I AND TIER II (ARTICLE II AND IIA)
If a member has twenty (20) years of service or more and no shortage, an application may be made for a refund of any excess funds in the member's pension fund account. Should no request be made by the time of retirement, the excess will be multiplied by the member's actuarial factor and the pension allowance will be increased for life by the actuarial value of the excess. Shortages result from: (1) discontinuing employee contributions and/or (2) borrowing from your account at 4% loan rate versus the 8.25% interest rate paid by the Fund. Members considering requesting a refund of excess are reminded that this can only be used for tax-free monies.

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:20:48 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#10. To: Cynicom (#8)
Either you do or you are a BS artist.

Another yard artist?
Most are kept on a leash.

Peppa posted on 2008-05-20 20:25:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#11. To: Peppa (#10)
In NYC in particular, when you need a cop with a big gun now to save your sorry butt, you do NOT complain about his pension.

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 20:27:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#12. To: Cynicom (#6)
He isn't the same guy who fought along side me for Buchanan back in '96 on tfR.

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:27:54 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#13. To: Cynicom (#11)
In NYC in particular, when you need a cop with a big gun now to save your sorry butt, you do NOT complain about his pension.

Hehehehe..

Peppa posted on 2008-05-20 20:30:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#14. To: Jethro Tull (#12)
He isn't the same guy who fought along side me for Buchanan back in '96 on tfR.

Medical procedure?

Peppa posted on 2008-05-20 20:31:16 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#15. To: Jethro Tull (#5) (Edited)
Enough about my personal life...

... as a beneficiary of NYC socialism.
As for the ladies, it's simple. I probably spend too much of my time engaged in online forum debates like this one. ;^)
Now, come on JT. Let's not let this get ugly. It's OK that you are a beneficiary of socialism. That doesn't mean you have to like it, right? You didn't make those rules. Those bleeding-heart NYC lefties did. Gotta give ya credit, though, for getting on the receiving end of the plunder. These days, it may be the only way to survive the larger plunder by bigger sharks like Halliburton.
I'm glad some of the money stolen is getting back to good folks like you. I only wish more of it did. That's why I'm willing to cast a tactical vote for Obama come November. ;^)
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2008-05-20 20:31:48 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#16. To: Jethro Tull (#12)
Arator has morphed into a white guilter that hates his own lack of color. Shame.
That is fine with me but posting something he knows nothing about to incite argument is over the top. Having lived there for years, Arator is a BS artist and out of his league on this.

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 20:32:52 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#17. To: Arator (#15)
All is fair in love (hetro for me) and politics. You brought up my personal finances in some odd attempt to link me to socialism so it's only fair that I suggest an unmarried, life-long bachelor, might do boys to men.

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:38:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#18. To: Arator (#0)
Holy Obama-style socialism, Batman! That's a MASSIVE redistribution of wealth from the taxpayers of NYC to the boys in blue.

I am not sure where you are going with this.
There was a time in America when working men and women received a retirement benefit as part of their compensation in exchange for their years of labor.
You think people working and being compensated for their labor is a bad thing?
What is the alternative? Slavery?

honway posted on 2008-05-20 20:38:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#19. To: Cynicom (#16)
That is fine with me but posting something he knows nothing about to incite argument is over the top. Having lived there for years, Arator is a BS artist and out of his league on this.

They'll do anything to damage the forum and thus enhance Obama. He's been outed in more ways than one.

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:40:52 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#20. To: Jethro Tull (#9)
These redistribution schemes are very super-complicated but, in the end, all you get comes from moneys the city and the state extorts from the peaceful citizens.
Like alcoholism, the first step should be admitting that you are a beneficiary of wealth redistributions. Like I said, I was one for a while, when I lived in a rent-controlled apartment in Bay Ridge, New York. That redistribution was very good for me. Maybe it wasn't fair but I've paid back the governments, maybe close to a million in mandatory taxes since and maybe some of that was redistributed back to the landlord.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
a vast rightwing conspirator posted on 2008-05-20 20:41:07 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#21. To: honway (#18)
New York City is a jungle, under control of the police department, withdraw them and the animals will reclaim the jungle.

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 20:43:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#22. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#20)
The system is simple - pay in, get matching monies, invest privately - get out. American investment at it's Finest!

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:44:01 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#23. To: Jethro Tull (#22)
Hmmm... that 'matching money' thing troubles me a little. Doesn't it trouble you?
I do get matching money in my 401k and I know exactly where that money comes from. It's from people who voluntarily buy the stuff that my company sells. No one forces them to buy it. Can you tell me where the matching money came in your case? Oh, I know, from taxes. It's a redistribution scheme.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
a vast rightwing conspirator posted on 2008-05-20 20:48:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#24. To: honway (#18) (Edited)
You think people working and being compensated for their labor is a bad thing?

JT left an impression on another thread that his pension was entirely funded by member contributions and then privately invested. He claimed that he was in no way a beneficiary of NYC socialism.
I have no problem with JT getting a generous pension. But, let's be honest about what it is and who's paying for it.
And, frankly, any government pension is potentially socialist and redistributive, since the ones who are ultimately paying for it aren't doing so voluntarily, unlike pensions provided as compensation by the private sector. There is no employer in the private sector anywhere that is contributing 56% of covered payroll into an employee pension fund. That is, on its face, a MASSIVE redistribution of wealth from NYC taxpayers to the police.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2008-05-20 20:48:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#25. To: Arator (#24)
Maybe if you could share the general nature of your point of reference it would help me understand your anger at people being compensated for their labor, whether it's factory workers,waitresses,doctors, teachers,soldiers, or policemen.
Are you independently wealthy living off of interest income?
Does someone else support you?
Or do you exchange your talents and labor for compensation?

honway posted on 2008-05-20 20:58:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#26. To: Arator (#24)
JT left an impression on another thread that his pension was entirely funded by member contributions

Show me. Impressions and you are questionable.

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 20:58:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#27. To: Arator (#24)
That is, on its face, a MASSIVE redistribution of wealth from NYC taxpayers to the police.

On its face you have not a clue about which you speak, not a clue.
When one signs on with NYPD, a pension is part of your pay, if you live to collect it. No man would be ignorant enough to accept only pay offered.

Cynicom posted on 2008-05-20 21:02:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#28. To: Jethro Tull (#26) (Edited)
Show me. Impressions and you are questionable.

Click the source document linked atop the thread and turn to page 173 (or pdf document page 192). There you will find a table titled "New York City Police Pension Fund - June 30, 2007 - Revenue by Source (in thousands)".
The rightmost column of that table is titled "Employer Contributions as a Percent of Covered Payroll". Track down to the row for 2007 and you will find the answer - 55.8%!
The second and third columns from the left show "Member Contributions" and "Employer Contributions". To calculate the percentage of covered payroll contributed by members, I first calculated covered payroll by dividing the "Employer Contribution" for 2007 ($1.544 billion) by the "Employer Contributions as a Percent of Covered Payroll" (.558). This yields a covered payroll for 2007 of $2.768 trillion. Dividing "Member Contributions" by covered payroll yields 4.78% for the "Member Contributions as a Percent of Covered Payroll".
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2008-05-20 21:17:48 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#29. To: honway (#25) (Edited)
Maybe if you could share the general nature of your point of reference it would help me understand your anger at people being compensated for their labor, whether it's factory workers,waitresses,doctors, teachers,soldiers, or policemen.

You misunderstand me. I'm not angry. I'm not the one who's insisting on no collaboration or compromise with socialists or socialism for any reason.
I much prefer redistributionism that rewards average working people to that which rewards corporate pirates and thieves.
It was JT who was insisting that I am an apostate heretic for tactically favoring the former in order to defeat (and defund) the latter.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2008-05-20 21:23:52 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#30. To: Arator (#29)
I recall that the original issue was JT demanding that someone declares himself for or against 'redistribution'.
It was going like this: Obama is for redistribution. You are an Obama supporter. Therefore, (unlike me, JT), you are a supporter of redistribution.
It turns out that JT is a BIG beneficiary of redistribution.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
a vast rightwing conspirator posted on 2008-05-20 21:27:59 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#31. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#30)
It was going like this: Obama is for redistribution. You are an Obama supporter. Therefore, (unlike me, JT), you are a supporter of redistribution.

Show me.

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 21:30:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#32. To: Jethro Tull (#31)
Show you what? That you are a beneficiary of redistribution? I've been showing you how many times already?
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
a vast rightwing conspirator posted on 2008-05-20 21:32:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#33. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#32)
Ah....again......the city matched my contribution. The total amount went into the PBA (a union association) for private investment. This is socialism how?

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 21:35:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#34. To: Jethro Tull (#33)
Are you trying to wear me off? If you are, there's good news for you. My laptop's battery is about to run out.
If the city matched your contribution, then you are a beneficiary of redistributions. There's no ifs or butts about it.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
a vast rightwing conspirator posted on 2008-05-20 21:37:36 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#35. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#34)
Cool....

Jethro Tull posted on 2008-05-20 21:38:22 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#36. To: Arator (#0) (Edited)
Damn, if I were a retired NYC police officer, I'd be more careful summarily condemning socialism, socialists or libertarians who plan on voting for a socialist in the fall in order to expedite the demolition of the GOP's fascist freakshow. ;^)

If you're not some sort of anarchist weirdo, you'll probably admit that there are some legitimate functions of the government. Law enforcement is one of them, unless you think that you personally have the time and resources to investigate a murder or incarcerate violent felons on behalf of your neighbors and friends.
So how does one compare the state paying its former employees a pension to paying people who don't, never have, and never will work for the government or anybody else welfare? Especially when the cherry on Obama's welfare cake is a global tax plan, where our money goes not to pay retired cops pensions but to buy food and medicine for people in Africa?

I much prefer redistributionism that rewards average working people to that which rewards corporate pirates and thieves.

I agree. But our welfare state doesn't benefit "average working people." It benefits welfare parasites, unqualified affirmative action hires, illegal aliens, and other dregs.

Rupert_Pupkin posted on 2008-05-21 0:01:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#37. To: honway, Arator, Jethro Tull (#25)
Arator obviously doesn't know what socialism is.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Critter posted on 2008-05-21 0:09:48 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#38. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#36)
But our welfare state doesn't benefit "average working people." It benefits welfare parasites, unqualified affirmative action hires, illegal aliens, and other dregs.

excellent point.

christine posted on 2008-05-21 0:28:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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