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(s)Elections
See other (s)Elections Articles

Title: A Conservative For Obama?
Source: Andrew Sullivan's Daily Dish
URL Source: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.c ... ish/2008/05/who-am-i.html#more
Published: May 27, 2008
Author: Andrew Sullivan
Post Date: 2008-05-27 13:26:19 by aristeides
Keywords: None
Views: 461
Comments: 28

A Conservative For Obama?

27 May 2008 12:56 pm

Packer attempts to summarize me:

Sullivan, a Burkean by philosophy but a radical by temperament, is the most interesting critic of his former conservative allies, and I’ve learned a lot about conservatism agonistes from reading his blog. He says that conservatism isn’t about solving problems but about recognizing the limits of man’s ability to do so, especially in the form of organized activity called government. His breakdown can’t help stacking the deck: conservatism is modest, skeptical, narrowly focussed on what can be done; liberalism tries, promiscuously, to satisfy everyone’s needs. Sullivan believes that the Republican Party went astray when it forgot its philosophical principles and started throwing more feed at the hogs of the electorate than Democrats. He is, in the terms of my article, a purist rather than a reformist, but his unhappiness with the movement is so great that it’s driven him into the arms of his exact opposite, Barack Obama, who is philosophically liberal and temperamentally conservative.

Sullivan knows that his Oakeshottian version of conservatism is a very hard sell in a country that expects problems to come with solutions, and he seems to acknowledge that its future here belongs with the reformists like David Brooks, Ross Douthat, and Reihan Salam, who are readier than he is to accept that people have a right to want their government to improve their lives, not just to instruct them in the vanity of human effort. I read Sullivan every day, partly to find out how far his disenchantment will carry him in the very strange direction of Obama-style uplift—how long his temperament will win out over his ideas.

It's a little hard to know how to respond to such a perceptive critique. But, yeah, it's true. Intellectually, I find so much of Obama's substance domestically to be anathema. (This is not true of his tilt back toward realism and diplomacy in foreign policy, which could be seen as a return to conservative principles after Bush's Wilsonianism). I haven't sat through a single Obama speech without ideologically wincing at something. I fear that in the general election, his recourse to liberal tropes will begin to wear thin.

So why do I find myself still longing for him to win?

Because, I can't see how domestic policy could become more statist and less responsible than the past eight years. Because I want to see such a record punished with electoral defeat for fear they still don't know what they did wrong. Because I think Obama's diplomatic skills and public relations brilliance could serve this country very well. And because of what Obama represents in our collective consciousness.

His candidacy is about renewing what America means to the world and to itself. It is about a collective cultural healing - especially on race. It is about representing the next generation and America's less domineering but more inspiring place among nations. It is about transparency in government. It is about getting past this brutal cultural polarization for a while. It is about putting reason back into our discourse after the emotional manipulation of the Morris-Rove era. It is about ending torture, restoring Constitutional balance, and adding the power of words, of great words, to restore hope again. :

This may sound lofty, but I do not think it is lofty in the way utopian liberalism suggests. It is lofty the way Reagan was lofty and Kennedy was lofty, which transcends ideology. Set apart from their actual achievements in office (on which scale Reagan dwarfs Kennedy), they both recast this country's self-understanding - and the world's understanding of America. This shift occurs in the heart, and it is not about promising heaven on earth. It is about being all we can be at this moment in history. It is about us - not policy; our self-understanding - not self-recreation.

This is why even as I disagree with him, I want him to win. My heart says so. And the conservative part of my head has a few months to talk me out of it.

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#1. To: aristeides (#0)

Sullivan isn't conservative, not in any traditional sense.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-27   13:28:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: aristeides (#0)

Should of called it gay guys for Obama!

robnoel  posted on  2008-05-27   13:29:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Jethro Tull (#1)

Sullivan isn't conservative, not in any traditional sense.

Sullivan regularly writes in praise of Oakeshott and Burke.

I think it's the neocons, the Bush followers, etc. who are not conservative, at least in any traditional sense.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-27   13:33:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: aristeides, robnoel, all (#3)

Gay, HIV+, non-American, supported Bush in the 2000 Presidential election, he endorsed Kerry for President in 2004. In 2006, he supported the Democratic Party's takeover of Congress. A conservative? Nah,,,

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-27   13:44:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Jethro Tull (#4)

non-American

I guess you must think Burke was no conservative.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-27   13:47:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: aristeides (#5)

We're talking Sullivan.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-27   13:49:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: aristeides (#0) (Edited)

His candidacy is about renewing what America means to the world and to itself. It is about a collective cultural healing - especially on race.

That's some mighty strong stuff to put upon the shoulders of one man.

People have so much emotionally, psychologically, culturally, politically, and racially invested in this man it's hard to see how he would be able to satisfy anybody, from MOVEON who'd want him to snap his fingers and voila!, magically all the troops come home to pundits like Sullivan who see him as a virtual divinity, the hand of the gods upon him to restore America.

I'm afraid that his victory will spark immense disappointment among his aficionados.

swarthyguy  posted on  2008-05-27   13:51:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Jethro Tull (#6)

conservative, at least in any traditional sense

Your words.

If Burke was not a conservative in a traditional sense, I wonder who does qualify.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-27   14:01:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: swarthyguy (#7)

People who talk about Obama as some kind of political Messiah remind me of those who drank the Bush-Cheney Kool-Aid in 2000. After 8 years of Clinton, they convinced themselves that a spoiled moron and a corrupt Halliburton CEO were going to "restore decency and honor to the White House" and crap like that.

Now, after 8 years of Bush, a lot of well-meaning people are looking toward an empty suit as a political saviour.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-05-27   14:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: aristeides (#0)

... His candidacy is about renewing what America means to the world and to itself. It is about a collective cultural healing - especially on race. ... It is about transparency in government. ... It is about putting reason back into our discourse after the emotional manipulation of the Morris-Rove era. It is about ending torture, restoring Constitutional balance, and adding the power of words, of great words, to restore hope again.

Did I think this true I would be on board.

However, it is not true.

One need look no further than Oh'bummers advisers, the convenient death of his alleged gay lover, and the touting he is receiving in the CONTROLLED media which harpooned and minimized Ron Paul for advocating restoration of the Constitution and kicking out the International Bankers.

As well Sullivan is connected to the same Skull and Bones/CFR/Trilateralist/Bilderburger (Buckley) crowd that has already taken us down the road to hell.

While it is possible that the Tiger has changed his stripes to a Zebra I think it unlikely. It is more likely, in my estimation, that this is simply more of the same to make an Oh'bummer Preznitcy palatable to the usual conservative suckers (FReepistan/Fraud Rezpublik comes to mind - as well as Rush's mind numbed Dildoeheads).

I trust Oh'Bummer, and Sullivan, about as far as I can throw the Twin Towers.

"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken

Original_Intent  posted on  2008-05-27   14:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Jethro Tull (#4) (Edited)

Wasn't Sullivan all in favor of the "war on terror" back in 2002? Why the change of tune?

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-05-27   14:26:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: aristeides (#8)

I wonder who does qualify.

American Firsters. Ron Paul, Charlie Reese, Pat Buchanan, Joe Sobran, the late Sam Francis, the paleoconservatives, warts and all.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-27   14:35:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#12)

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/10/16/sullivan/index.html?source=rss

Sullivan supported the WOT before it began to go badly.

Oct. 16, 2006 | Once a fervent supporter of George W. Bush and the "war on terror," Andrew Sullivan, over the past several years, has been one of the president's most passionate detractors. Sullivan, an openly gay Republican, focuses his ire on the debacle in Iraq and the Bush administration's hostility to gay rights, what he sees as a wholesale betrayal of conservatism.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-27   14:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: aristeides, Jethro Tull, robnoel (#0)

I like Burke...

And be it enacted, that the said Protector of Negroes, by and with the consent of the Governour and Chief Judge of each Island, shall form instructions, by which the said Inspectors shall discharge their trust in the manner the least capable of exciting any unreasonable hopes in the said Negroes, or of weakening the proper authority of the Overseer, and shall transmit them to one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State; and when sent back with his approbation, the same shall become the rule for the conduct of the said Inspectors.

If you will go along with me we'll travel with the tide
And I will always keep you on the sheltered side

Tauzero  posted on  2008-05-27   15:19:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Jethro Tull (#13)

Oct. 16, 2006 | Once a fervent supporter of George W. Bush and the "war on terror," Andrew Sullivan, over the past several years, has been one of the president's most passionate detractors. Sullivan, an openly gay Republican, focuses his ire on the debacle in Iraq and the Bush administration's hostility to gay rights, what he sees as a wholesale betrayal of conservatism.

I think that the gay marriage issue is the tail wagging the foreign policy dog in Sullivanland.

Sullivan would go back home to Bush and the neocons if they'd just back the gay activist agenda.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-05-27   17:08:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#15)

the tail wagging

Hey, I love a clear eyed cynic. Not to mention those Bush tax cuts, as a stimulus for marriage.

What a change from being berated as a "breeder" from the old days.

swarthyguy  posted on  2008-05-27   17:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Original_Intent (#10)

and the touting he is receiving in the CONTROLLED media which harpooned and minimized Ron Paul for advocating restoration of the Constitution and kicking out the International Bankers.

it's pretty simple stuff. ;)

christine  posted on  2008-05-27   18:25:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Original_Intent (#10)

One need look no further than Oh'bummers advisers, the convenient death of his alleged gay lover,

By using either bribe or blackmail or both at the same time, the Powers That Be get our politicians to carry their water once in office.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-05-27   18:35:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: christine (#17) (Edited)

and the touting he is receiving in the CONTROLLED media which harpooned and minimized Ron Paul for advocating restoration of the Constitution and kicking out the International Bankers.

it's pretty simple stuff. ;)

Quite true, yet is amazing to me that people who should know better, and do on other subjects, are blindly and abjectly ignoring the evidence, of which they are well aware, that the Presstitutes are as crooked as a corkscrew.

It reminds me of an H.L. Mencken comment:

"The believing mind reaches it's perehelion in the so called liberals who believe in each and every quack that comes along including the communists. The communists have their faults too, but they fall short of believing in the liberals."

"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken

Original_Intent  posted on  2008-05-28   1:02:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Jethro Tull (#12) (Edited)

I wonder who does qualify.

American Firsters. Ron Paul, Charlie Reese, Pat Buchanan, Joe Sobran, the late Sam Francis, the paleoconservatives, warts and all.

But not Burke, apparently. Hmmm.

Is there some reason why all the people you list are Americans?

You hold it against Sullivan that he supported Bush in 2000, but Pat Buchanan -- who supported Bush in 2004, long after people had had a chance to see what Bush really represented -- makes your list.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-28   10:23:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: aristeides (#20)

Buchanan voted for Bush

I said, warts and all.

And so what if he did? Lots of folks on this and other forums did as well, only to now see the light. When people happen to become enlightened is a variable thing.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-28   13:05:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Jethro Tull (#21)

Well, you're the one who holds it against Sullivan that he supported Bush in 2000. (By 2004, he was not supporting him any longer.)

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-28   14:06:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: aristeides (#22)

See #4

Sullivan supported Kerry in '04 and the D congress takeover in '06

He's no conservative.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-28   14:38:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Jethro Tull (#23)

Sullivan supported Kerry in '04 and the D congress takeover in '06

So you actually hold it against him that he did not support Bush in '04 and the R's in '06?

Hmmm, more or less what I've long suspected.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-28   14:50:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: aristeides (#24)

So you actually hold it against him that he did not support Bush in '04 and the R's in '06?

No, his support for Senator Lurch in '04 and the Ds in '06 nullify his self proclaimed conservative credentials.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-28   15:54:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Jethro Tull (#25) (Edited)

Did you know that Burke's political affiliation was with the Whigs? As a matter of fact, he was a Whig Member of Parliament.

Furthermore, as Paymaster of the Forces and Privy Councillor, he held office in the Whig ministries of Lord Rockingham and Charles James Fox.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-28   15:59:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: aristeides (#26)

Burke? We're discussing Sullivan. Diversion, this gem of a liberal debate tactic is tiresome.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-05-28   16:05:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Jethro Tull (#27)

conservative, at least in any traditional sense

Your words.

Review of Russell Kirk's "The Conservative Mind: from Burke to Eliot" (National Review).

Now, what was that you were saying?

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-05-28   16:25:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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