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Title: A Visit To Waco Texas- Fifteen Years Later
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URL Source: http://,
Published: May 30, 2008
Author: .
Post Date: 2008-05-30 07:28:25 by Artisan
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Keywords: waco
Views: 611
Comments: 57
A Visit To Waco, TX- Fifteen Years later Waco 15 Years Later- A Visit to Mount Carmel in Waco, Texas; May 2008. I went to Texas last week and while there, went to visit the location of the infamous WACO tragedy. When I first arrived in Waco after visiting some friends in Austin, I asked some locals where the compound was. A few people pointed me in the general direction, but no one had been there or knew exact directions. One guy remarked that "it's sad that is what Waco is known for". So I stopped by the local 'Texas Ranger Museum' and went into the visitor center. They had hundreds of brochures on tourist spots displayed, but no mention of the Waco slaughter. I asked the lady behind the desk how to get to the Dr. Pepper Museum and then asked her if she knew how to get to the Waco compound. Surprisingly, she went to retrieve a map of directions to Mount Carmel which they kept behind the counter, and gave it to me. "MILITARY TRAINING MADE WACO FAMOUS" appears on state plaque We then drove to the compound. I struck me as a beautiful and serene area of Texas. CORNER HEADING TO COMPOUND. The property is straight ahead down this road, DOUBLE EE RANCH ROAD, on the right side. The house to the right is either the caretakers house or the preachers house. The church in the background behind the tree is the memorial church built after the tragedy. The house that was burned was behind and to the left of where the church is. In the foreground is the stone memorials to the victims. Texas Dept of Transportation KEEP OFF Me front of Waco memorial. I have some video of this and the reason for my sign, which I will post later also. I view this Waco atrocity as linked with 9/11 in the sense that it's another in the long history of government terrorism and abuses of the American people. Memorial to the victims While we were there a local woman drove onto the property with some friends. turns out she was a long time resident and college professor who taught at Baylor college. She said that the stones (pictured below) with the victims names were originally set out in the field towards the memorial church, with a tree being planted for each victim, but were later moved to the front and placed onto each other to form a sort of memorial wall. She said the new leader of the church and self proclaimed 'prophet' is a guy by the name of Charles Pace, and that there has been a lot of division and turmoil among the sect in recent years. She was sympathetic to the victims and disagreed strongly with what the government did. The woman relayed the chilling story of the day of the fire, April 19, 1993; she was teaching at Baylor and saw the fire live on TV in the teachers lounge, and at the same time they saw the fire out their window which was 5 miles away from the compound. She rubbed her arms as she said she still gets chills when she talks about it, the goose bumps visible on her arms as she told the story. I asked her what the local reaction was at the time; she said it was mixed. some were outraged, others thought the 'cult' 'brought it on themselves' and some kept their opinion to themselves, unlike herself, who she reiterated, was not hesitant to express her disagreement with the government action. I asked her what the current church leadership's position was on visitors to the property and she said they seem to be very open to visitors and she assumed that any visitors to the compound must be viewed as sympathetic by the property owners. Interestingly, the woman then mentioned that Timothy MckVey visited the Waco compound and was photographed there before carrying out the OKC bombing, and that it was no accident that that occured on April 19th 2 years later. the poor woman did not even seem to know that OKC was yet another government attack. So even those sympathetic to the victims at Waco do not know the whole truth. Mount Carmel is a somber and quiet place and she was there to grieve and honor the victims with her friends, so I did not feel it was the appropriate time or place to talk to her about it. Memorial blocks with all victims names, right side As we walked up the hill from the front of the property and approached the church, all of the sudden a big black lab started running towards me, chasing me. I ran back towards the car but later ventured back towards the church to take a look at it. Here is a portable bathroom that sits next to the church. Notice the little dog standing to the left of the bathroom. The photo on the right is the small pond across from the church. Church plaque and photo of signs on church door MEMORIALS TO ATF AGENTS KILLED AND OKC BOMBING VICTIMS 2 YEARS LATER 'DONT TREAD ON ME' FLAG FLYING IN FRONT OF CHURCH LEAVING WACO After leaving Mount Carmel we stopped by the Dr. Pepper Museum and then went by the masonic lodge. Below is an example of some Dr. Pepper memorabilia showcased in the museum. Entrance is $6 per person for adults. I've drank Dr. Pepper since I was a kid, but I do not recommend visiting the museum; I found it boring and a waste of money. You can, however go inside and enter the gift shop and the snack bar where you can buy a glass of the original formula Dr. Pepper, made with pure cane sugar. You can also buy bottles, or a six pack of cans of the original formula dr Pepper for less than 5 bucks. I try the original forumla of Dr. Pepper after a hot day in Waco. Delicious. More photos here Suggested documentaries on WACO: WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT Also: Waco: the Big Lie and America: WAKE UP or WACO!
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#1. To: Artisan (#0)
It's hard to believe that this happened 15 years ago! Those murdered kids would be in college now. The Davidians make the mistake, in hindsight, of letting the ATF go when they ran out of ammo. THat is a mistake that is not likely to be repeated.
As in any home/business invasion, I think it's wise to use necessary force to terminate the felony.
Where we might differ is in how to determine when the felon(y) is terminated.
Necessary force has a different meaning to different people. For me it's when my life or that of others, is no longer in jeopardy.
thank you for sharing. excellent pics and summary. i got goosebumps like the lady you were speaking to there. everyone, be sure to hit the link Artisan posted at the end for more pics.
Thanks much for this report.
Good vid. government terrorism and abuses I think there is a better term for this: State Muti.
No no, b-b-BOP-p-p-bop bop bop...
Thank you for posting this.
Have you posted your TX DPS video yet?
Rabbi Abraham Cooper Dear Rabbi Cooper: The Fifth Anniversary of the April 19, 1993 burning of the Mt. Carmel Center in Waco, Texas is fast approaching. I write in the hope that you and the Simon Wiesenthal Center will use your considerable resources to mark the occasion. As we have not met, allow me to give you a little information about my background. I am a resident of Virginia, but a New Yorker by birth. I could be described as a "concerned citizen," a mother with a young daughter, concerned with teaching my daughter to do the right thing. When I was a young woman, I attended a convent school where the nuns taught me about the rise of the Nazis in Germany. I could not understand why the German people, with their great history of learning and culture, could allow such to happen in their country. Why did they not speak out and say "No"? I resolved that, should history bring similar circumstances to my life, I would step forward and say "No." . . . Still today, five years after Waco, the words "Never Again" are unspoken by our nation. It was indeed a coincidence that the burning of the Mt. Carmel Center took place hours before the US Holocaust Museum was dedicated in Washington, D.C. (on April 19, 1993, the 50th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising). Yet, as far as the public knows, not one of the dignitaries at the dedication condemned the slaughter of the innocents at Waco. To compound the irony, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians apparently had a warm regard for Israel and things Jewish. * David Koresh personally visited Israel. http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/doc/d_doc15.html According to that Jerusalem Post Magazine article, I long accepted this dictum as true: Jews feel concern for the downtrodden and are champions of the Bill of Rights and due process. Therefore it has been a great personal disappointment to me that, almost five years after the incident, not one American Jewish leader of prominence has condemned the butchery and demanded the prosecution of the murderers. Sadly, no one from organized Jewry has spoken out to condemn the hatred and denigration leveled against the Waco victims, either. You doubtlessly witnessed the hate campaign conducted by the media during the 1993 siege, but do you realize that the campaign still continues? Review the hate cartoon published by ESQUIRE magazine in January, 1996: http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/fig/b_fig01.html I enclose a copy of the cartoon, along with a copy of the magazine's masthead. (Note that Edward Kosner is no longer the editor of ESQUIRE.) Have a look at the cartoon on pg. 66. The banner over the top reads: "MILITIA CAFE . . . The Finest Theme Restaurant in the Zionist States of Amerika!" . . . I would like to make a formal public request that the Simon Wiesenthal Center (1) call for the prosecution of the murderers of the Branch Davidians, and, (2) publicly condemn the hate and vilification campaigns leveled against the Davidians. I ask you to join me in affirming Article I of America's first Bill of Rights, the Virginia Declaration of Rights: "That all Men by Nature are equally free and independent, and have certain inherent Rights, of which, when they enter into a state of Society, they cannot, by any Compact, deprive or divest their Posterity; namely, the enjoyment of Life and Liberty, with the Means of acquiring and possessing Property, and pursuing and obtaining Happiness and Safety." (Adopted on June 12, 1776; written by George Mason of Gunston Hall, Virginia.) We Americans have come from a variety of religious, cultural and ethnic backgrounds. My own ancestors were Irish and Italian. When they came to this country, they did so with the intention of giving their full loyalty to America and its ideals--liberty and justice for all. Surely our first civic duty is to the nationality that unites us, rather than ethnic, religious or cultural differences that may divide us. Let us seek common justice even for the "least of these" who live among us. Naturally I would be delighted if you persuaded other leaders of organized Jewry to join in these efforts. I would be pleased to offer you whatever assistance I can in this regard. My e-mail address is . I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Carol A. Valentine
I never met one.
The dictums continue in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Janet Reno being a prime example.
Guessing that Ms.Valentine is still waiting for a response to her thoughtful letter.
Guessing Ms. Valentine is now on the Weisenthal list of enemies of the Jews.
Butch Reno and Lon Horiuchi are two people I would like to see face the hangman.
Butch and Lon are excellent candidates for a good neck-stretching.
Check out the artist's website: www.McKenzyHuntyr.com Looks like iTunes and MusicNet now have this music. That's a major step forward from when I last checked. Word is getting out. Artisan: one more example of how liberty-minded artists can truly change the world. Thank you.
Thanks for the RW video - strong stuff.
If you watch that whole movie, you learn that Randy was being targeted as a potential informant with a potential conviction hanging over his head -- what they hoped to get by his sawed off shotgun evidence. They really wanted to go after the Aryan Nations crowd using the fact that the group trusted him. He wasn't one of them, really. He sympathized with their ideas, and attended their picnics. He was worried about Zionist influence in the US, and wanted no part in modern American life, which he believed was becoming more and more dominated by Zionism. He thought of himself as a racial separatist, not a supremacist. The media makes the two sound the same, but to people like Randy Weaver, they are not. Needless to say, Randy wouldn't oblige the ATF/FBI and spy on his friends, even if he didn't agree with everything that they said.
Butch and Lon could use an "adjustment" to their cervical vertebrae.
I know you guys are angry at the specific people who gave the orders and participated. But I find myself more angry at the average Americans I talk with, who refuse to admit that the government should have limits. We've all been told how the Nazis had too much government power, and they started attacking groups of people that were very unpopular but no one did anything to stop them because they mostly didn't like those people, either. Those stories mean nothing to the average American when it comes to his own country, his own people, and his own politicians. Everything gets a pass, as long as the media tells them it's OK. Sooner or later, they are responsible themselves for failing to even acknowledge that excesses are dangerous. The recent FLDS situation is a strong case in point.
I had the pleasure to have breakfast with RW when he was in town a few years ago. Just an everyday Joe who wished nothing more than to be left alone with his family. Much like the Davidians...
I blame the congress for creating and funding these obscene agencies.
Most people with an open mind sooner or later comes to realize that "government" is the enemy. Not a political party, not a president, not one ideology, it is the government as an ever increasing cancer.
Exactly correct.
They really weren't average, but that's another point worth making. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave, or it isn't. Randy wanted to keep his family separate from everyday life. So be it. It's not up to the government to ask why. A note on the Waco story: it apparently all started because a neighbor complained to the sheriff about automatic weapons fire. The average soccer mom thinks justice was served at Waco and Ruby Ridge.
They cower the American people into believing that these things are necessary for their safety. Sooner or later, the American people have to start saying no. That's the only way.
There is NO cure via the ballot box. Those living in fantasy land that see Obummer as their savior need a strong dose of Ex-Lax and reality mixed in equal amounts.
Saying no can come in several ways.
The blood will run, words are useless.
Hi, I havent had time to do that yet. I'm still figuring out this youtube stuff..
MY REPLY TO ZEITGEIST: 1John Chapter 2: "21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." Thanks, I'll check out the video and song you posted also. it was quite a powerful experience to be there at Waco. The area seems so peaceful and serene, i wouldnt mind living there.
MY REPLY TO ZEITGEIST: 1John Chapter 2: "21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." Good luck with it.
www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=13037 The song is about Thatcherite unemployment in the UK, apparently.
That and holing up in the house rather than expanding their perimeter.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
I wonder why the feds were allowed on the property? ----------------------------------------------------------- www.me xiadailynews.com/st...ocal_story_060094100.html Agents visit Davidian site 15 years after botched raid WACO, Texas (AP) — About a dozen federal agents visited the former Branch Davidian compound site Thursday, 15 years after a botched raid began an armed standoff with authorities and didn’t end until a deadly inferno 51 days later. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms planned a surprise raid on the religious sect’s compound near Waco on Feb. 28, 1993, trying to arrest leader David Koresh for stockpiling weapons and explosives. But gunfire immediately erupted, killing four agents and six Davidians. That led to a 51-day standoff, during which time 21 children and 14 adults left the compound unharmed. But the complex caught fire and burned to the ground on April 19, 1993, killing Koresh and nearly 80 of his followers, including about two dozen children. The government claims the Davidians committed suicide by setting the fire and shooting themselves. But survivors say the blaze was started by tear gas rounds fired into the compound by government tanks, and that agents shot them — even those fleeing the burning building. On Thursday, some law officers stopped by the site in a rural area outside the city to pay their respects to the fallen agents. Then they went to a service, attended by about 100 people, at a law enforcement memorial site in Waco, the Waco Tribune-Herald reported in its Thursday online edition. a.abcnews.com/GMA/story?id=4680793&page=1 Cult Expert Says Waco and FLDS Kids Share Some of Same Problems By CHRIS CUOMO, DENNIS MURRAY and JONANN BRADY April 18, 2008 13 comments FONT SIZE EMAIL PRINT SHARE RSS Fifteen years ago this week, the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, went up in flames, ending a tense 51-day standoff between the religious cult and the FBI. David Koresh's son and wife talk about life after the tragedy. More Photos David Koresh, the group's charismatic leader, and 70 others, including 20 children, died in the inferno. There are some obvious parallels between the polygamist Branch Davidians and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints members whose Texas compound was recently raided by government officials. Both sought refuge in remote parts of Texas, about 200 miles apart. Both involved polygamy and accusations of child brides. And both sects have children who will have to contend with the trauma of having the only way of life they've ever known invaded and upended. Rick Ross, an expert on cults who has worked with former Branch Davidians and Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints members, said that children who come out of closed-off societies or cultlike groups face many of the same problems. But he says the current case in Texas and the fate of the FLDS children poses unprecedented and complex problems. "I've worked with a number of children removed by the courts from cults, and I've never seen a case like this," Ross told "Good Morning America." "These children have no support system on the outside. Everyone they know, they love, everything is tied up in that and that group. The Texas authorities have a tough road ahead," he said. Related Jeffs' Nephew Testifies Against PolygamistsWATCH: Manhunt for Polygamist: The Next Waco?PHOTOS: Cults: From Heaven's Gate to David Koresh Growing Up With Koresh Sky Okimoto was nearly 4 when his mother, Koresh's sixth wife, left the Waco compound. Today he is a 19-year-old college student and still struggling with the confusion and sadness, and the fading memories of Waco. "Being the son of David Koresh, yes it was pretty hard," Sky told "GMA." "I felt like something was wrong with me because so many people hated my father." He continued, "I was angry when I was young because I had just lost my father. It was only until the eighth grade really when I decided to be a happy person again." The Waco Branch Davidians, a splinter group of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, believed they were living in apocalyptic times. Their lifestyle was extremely austere, based on strict discipline, physical labor and intense Bible study. Koresh, the group's self-proclaimed messiah, took multiple wives with whom he had at least 14 children. Koresh was also accused of abusing underage girls -- one of his wives was 14 years old and another was 12. After beginning to question Koresh's doctrine, Okimoto's mom, Dana, left the group just months before the standoff with the government. Still, she said watching her former home go up in flames was horrifying. "That was probably the worst day of my life, because those were my friends, those were my family," she said in an ABC News "Primetime" interview in 2003. "What made it even harder for me was knowing I would have been in there." Dana Okimoto told "GMA" that she has avoided watching TV coverage of the FLDS case because of the similarities she sees between the two groups and the emotions it brings back. Sky Okimoto, who is also a budding actor, says that grappling with mixed feelings about his father has been difficult. (ABC News Photo Illustration) More Photos "I'm pretty much at peace with the fact that he existed," he said. "Sometimes I look up to him because of his charisma. Other times I think he was crazy." Tough Road Ahead for FLDS Kids Ross says that the Okimotos were lucky in many ways. "Sky came out at a very young age and was very fortunate his mother had the critical thinking to leave the compound and he had something to go out to. They had extended family. They could build a life." But the FLDS children and mothers are "like visitors from another planet" who know no other way of life, Ross said Related WATCH: Key Witness Speaks OutNever Too Young to Marry, Sect Girls SaySect Members: Brainwashed or Faithful? "It's a group that's almost 100 years old. It's a group that represents generations of abuse, and the mothers that we're seeing on television were literally born into the group as were their mothers and grandmothers," he said. "The children that we're seeing in CPS [Child Protective Services] custody, they have no one to go out to and their mothers completely endorse the group and continued abuse." Ross said, though, that the state did the right thing in taking the children from their mothers; if the state had not, it would be tantamount to letting sexual abuse continue indefinitely. The key to integrating the children into mainstream society, Ross said, is "communication and the fact that they've removed them from the controlled environment and cut off their information from the group itself." "If they can gain their trust and move forward, and they have good people in Texas, I think they can make headway," he said. Dana Okimoto says Sky is an example of kids' ability to bounce back. "There are times he has been very, very angry." she said of Sky. "And other times where I learned about the resliency of children."
MY REPLY TO ZEITGEIST: 1John Chapter 2: "21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." Thanks for the vid, very interesting. The waco footage of the stones at the trees was before all the stones were move to form a wall closer to the front., the woman we talked to had mentioned that they used to be under each tree. funny your video specifically showed the stone of david koresh, but it is not there now. Also interesting is that mckvey visited both the weaver house and waco before his alleged crime. they want to specifically paint any sympathizers of ruby ridge and waco in with the guy they claim is a lone nut murdering terr'ist.
MY REPLY TO ZEITGEIST: 1John Chapter 2: "21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." DIRECTIONS TO MOUNT CARMEL, BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND IN WACO TEXAS here is the map & directions to the Waco compound that I got from the TEXAS RANGER MUSEUM TEXT: (Note, we did not see any 'Holiday Inn'). DIRECTIONS TO MOUNT CARMEL: FROM THE WACO TOURIST INFORMATION CENTER, TAKE 135 NORTH JUST ACROSS THE RIVER TO ML KING BLVD. TURN LEFT ONTO ORCHARD LANE (ACROSS FROM THE HOLIDAY INN). TAKE ORCHARD LANE TO LOOP 340. TAKE A RIGHT ONTO LOOP 340. GO A SHORT DISTANCE ON LOOP 340, THEN TAKE A LEFT ONTO FM 2491. YOU WILL COME TO A SPLIT IN THE ROAD, BUT WILL NEED TO STAY ON 2491. ABOUT 5 MILES FROM LOOOP 340 YOU WILL SEE LARGE CORRUGATED TIN GATES ON THE LEFT. TURN LEFT ON THE DOUBLE EE RANCH ROAD, WHICH COMES DIRECTLY AFTER THE GATES. MOUNT CARMEL IS A SHORT DISTANCE ON THE RIGHT. MY REPLY TO ZEITGEIST: 1John Chapter 2: "21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. 22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." here are some pictures from my 2008 visit. the updated youtube vid is titled 'A visit to waco sixteen years later'.
"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28
The Texas Rangers were just about the only group that wasn't involved. If they had been, some Texans believe, the tragedy would not have occurred. Their reputation at the time was that of grownups as opposed to the adolescent ATF.
Many, including wesley clarke, made their bones that murderous day.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
I think it possible that the Rangers were kept out because they would have prevented the spectacle.
A caller to some talk show here said that he personally loaded four Tomahawk rockets on a 'copter that was sent to Mt.Carmel. When it returned to Ft.Hood, there were only three... Never believe that they won't fire on us.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
When it returned to Ft.Hood, there were only three... Never believe that they won't fire on us. Oh, I believe it. Some have no conscience, the Lon - may he rot in hell - Whorieoochi types would do it just for the fun of it. It was interesting, and eye opening, to me that one of the SEAL Instructors, where I went to boot camp, had a way of looking at you that let you know that cutting your throat would mean no more to him than his morning shave. I have still never settled, in my own mind, what the real purpose was for the Waco Op/murder spree. Certainly it wasn't to arrest David Koresh as they could have taken him down on any of his unarmed trips into town - or his daily jog. So, we can know it was not Koresh personally that the operation was about. And I think the planted story about the ATF being worried about its budget was another false story planted as a limited hang-out to provide some sense to an otherwise psychotically insane operation. It was and is bullshit. Simply another lie to help stop questions about the motivations. There was a deeper reason, a dark one. In part I think it was to see if their murder squads would kill women and children in cold blood, and in part I think it was part of the desensitization process of preparing people here for more such murder sprees of those who are merely different. Certainly the motivation came from some psychotic level, and just as certainly it was evil incarnate.
Yours was the definitive post on this topic.
It is a violation of Natural Law to use this document in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.
Thank you for the kind words. That pretty well describes todays' ATF. After the Ruby Ridge debacle, one of the ATF guys commented that their only mistake was not killing everyone and burning all the evidence.
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
The Bureau of Armed Torch Force is little different than any other Nazi or Bolshevik operation. It is composed of psychotics and sociopaths and those who do not go along are off loaded. They are not in the business of law enforcement they are in the business of suppression and intimidation.
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is still missing its idiot.
I took a stopwatch to the FLIR scenes in "Rules of Engagement"... I estimated ROF @ 650/rpm, about right for the cherished tool of the day the MP-5
"The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally — not a 20 percent traitor" - Ronald Reagan
Bin Laden was a kidney dialysis patient. Do you think Bush, or anyone else, thinks he is still alive?
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
I recall when I lived in Illinois, the Buffalo Grove cops were looking for the bearded bandit, and, they were carrying MP-5's.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
They would, without a doubt.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
Great Post - Thanks !
Democracy: “a government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude towards property is communistic-negative property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. It results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.” The 1928 Army Field Manual
#2. To: PSUSA (#1)
The Davidians make the mistake, in hindsight, of letting the ATF go when they ran out of ammo. THat is a mistake that is not likely to be repeated.
#3. To: Jethro Tull (#2)
#4. To: PSUSA (#3)
#5. To: Artisan, ALL, Critter (#0)
#6. To: Artisan (#0)
#7. To: Artisan, Jethro Tull, robnoel (#0)
WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT
#8. To: Artisan (#0)
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS." ~ Mahatma Ghandi
#9. To: Artisan (#0)
#10. To: lodwick, Critter, Artisan, Cynicom, christine, Texe Marrs (#9)
Letter to the Simon Wiesenthal Center
March 20, 1998
Associate Dean
Simon Wiesenthal Center
9760 W. Pico Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90035
* The flag of the Davidians featured the Star of David.
* Vernon Howell changed his name to "David" to honor Israeli King David and "Koresh" (the Hebrew form of Cyrus) to honor the Persian King Cyrus who defeated the Babylonians and freed the Jews from captivity.
* Branch Davidian survivor David Thibodeau visited Jerusalem in 1994; the Jersulam Post Magazine considered his visit significant enough to write a feature story on him (October 14, 1994). See
* The Branch Davidians living at the Mt. Carmel Center studied the Torah.
* One Branch Davidian who died at the Mt. Carmel Center, the late Pablo Cohen, was an Israeli citizen. According to the Jerusalem Post Magazine article, Mr. Cohen was one of the most devoted students of Scripture within the Branch Davidian community.
* David Koresh gave his deepest biblical studies during the Jewish High Holy Days.
* The FBI allowed a Pessah haggada, sent by Pablo's mother, Shulamit Cohen, into the Center during the siege. It was one of the few items the FBI allowed into the Center during the siege.
President, Public Action, Inc.
#11. To: buckeye (#10)
I long accepted this dictum as true: Jews feel concern for the downtrodden and are champions of the Bill of Rights and due process.
#12. To: Cynicom (#11)
#13. To: buckeye (#12)
The dictums continue in the face of evidence to the contrary.
#14. To: buckeye, Cynicom, all (#10)
#15. To: lodwick, Cynicom (#14)
#16. To: lodwick, buckeye (#14)
#17. To: Cynicom, lodwick, christine, Artisan, Cynicom (#16)
#18. To: Cynicom, buckeye, Artisan, all (#16)
#19. To: lodwick, Artisan (#18)
Nashville drew them together like a magnet in 1995, when Chanz Hale & Dallas Pike joined forces - musically as writers. Soon they found themselves on stages around the Nashville area. Now, with the additions of the sultry voiced Paula Hale and the thrilling harmony of Cat Willow Rose, talent, passion, and genius combine to form the living creative force called, McKenzy Huntyr, and this is Project C Their song "Bloody Ridge" is featured in the UK docu-film "The Legend of Ruby Ridge"
#20. To: buckeye (#17)
#21. To: lodwick (#20)
(Edited)
#22. To: lodwick (#18)
#23. To: Cynicom (#22)
#24. To: buckeye, Cynicom, all (#21)
Needless to say, Randy wouldn't oblige the ATF/FBI and spy on his friends, even if he didn't agree with everything that they said.
#25. To: buckeye (#23)
#26. To: buckeye (#23)
I know you guys are angry at the specific people who gave the orders and participated
#27. To: Cynicom (#26)
#28. To: lodwick (#24)
(Edited)
Davy Aguilera, the ATF agent that had prepared the affidavit, testified later on the trial that a neighbor heard machine-gun fire; but Aguilera failed to tell the magistrate that the same neighbor had previously reported the noise to the sheriff, who investigated the noise. The sheriff found Koresh had a lawful item called a hellfire device, which allows a semi-automatic firearm to fire at a rate approaching that of fully automatic firearms. The affidavit was approved by a U.S. magistrate and was used as a base for warrants.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege
#29. To: lodwick, Cynicom (#25)
I blame the congress for creating and funding these obscene agencies.
#30. To: buckeye, lodwick (#29)
#31. To: Cynicom (#30)
#32. To: buckeye (#31)
Saying no can come in several ways.
#33. To: lodwick (#9)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#34. To: buckeye (#17)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#35. To: Artisan (#33)
#36. To: Artisan, Ferret Mike, christine (#34)
Don't Give Up by Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush
In this proud land we grew up strong
We were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail
No fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my face, I've changed my name
But no one wants you when you lose
Don't give up
'Cos you have friends
Don't give up
You're not beaten yet
Don't give up
I know you can make it good
Though I saw it all around
Never thought I could be affected
Thought that we'd be the last to go
It is so strange the way things turn
Drove the night toward my home
The place that I was born, on the lakeside
As daylight broke, I saw the earth
The trees had burned down to the ground
Don't give up
You still have us
Don't give up
We don't need much of anything
Don't give up
'Cause somewhere there's a place
Where we belong
Rest your head
You worry too much
It's going to be alright
When times get rough
You can fall back on us
Don't give up
Please don't give up
'Got to walk out of here
I can't take anymore
Going to stand on that bridge
Keep my eyes down below
Whatever may come
And whatever may go
That river's flowing
That river's flowing
Moved on to another town
Tried hard to settle down
For every job, so many men
So many men no-one needs
Don't give up
'Cause you have friends
Don't give up
You're not the only one
Don't give up
No reason to be ashamed
Don't give up
You still have us
Don't give up now
We're proud of who you are
Don't give up
You know it's never been easy
Don't give up
'Cause I believe there's the a place
There's a place where we belong
#37. To: PSUSA (#1)
The Davidians make the mistake, in hindsight, of letting the ATF go when they ran out of ammo.
#38. To: buckeye (#36)
Lessons From Waco: What Happens to Kids?
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#39. To: buckeye (#17)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#40. To: All, Christine, lodwick, *Bilderberg and NWO Watch* (#39)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#41. To: Ada, artisan, eric stratton, btp holdings (#40)
#42. To: Artisan (#0)
So I stopped by the local 'Texas Ranger Museum' and went into the visitor center. They had hundreds of brochures on tourist spots displayed, but no mention of the Waco slaughter.
#43. To: Ada, 4 (#42)
#44. To: Ada (#42)
#45. To: Original_Intent, Ada, 4 (#44)
#46. To: Lod (#45)
(Edited)
A caller to some talk show here said that he personally loaded four Tomahawk rockets on a 'copter that was sent to Mt.Carmel.
#47. To: Original_Intent (#46)
There was a deeper reason, a dark one. In part I think it was to see if their murder squads would kill women and children in cold blood, and in part I think it was part of the desensitization process of preparing people here for more such murder sprees of those who are merely different.
#48. To: randge (#47)
#49. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#46)
Certainly the motivation came from some psychotic level, and just as certainly it was evil incarnate.
#50. To: Lod (#49)
After the Ruby Ridge debacle, one of the ATF guys commented that their only mistake was not killing everyone and burning all the evidence.
#51. To: Artisan (#41)
#52. To: Eric Stratton (#51)
visit this site -
#53. To: Lod, Original_Intent, 4 (#45)
Never believe that they won't fire on us.
#54. To: Artisan (#40)
I don't know where Bin Laden is.
#55. To: Flintlock (#53)
the cherished tool of the day the MP-5
#56. To: Lod (#45)
Never believe that they won't fire on us.
#57. To: Artisan (#0)
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