4um: Obama would send 2 more brigades to Afghanistan

WASHINGTON - Democrat Barack Obama said Monday that as president he would send at least two more combat brigades to Afghanistan, where U.S. soldiers face rising violence and endured their deadliest attack in three years on Sunday.

The proposed force increase is part of Obama's plan to pull combat troops out of Iraq and focus on the growing threat from a resurgent al-Qaida in Afghanistan.

But, but, but so many OPILES didn't buy into the entire al-Qaida thingie...what happened?

They found their inner arm chair warrior. It won't be long till they're slapping yellow stickers on their car and hanging a US frag off the front porch. Most of them don't object to the war as opposed to how it's being run. They pine for the glory days of lop sided fights where the ignorant savages don't even have a chance to shoot back. Those that do object have been placated by Obama's promise of plenty of Guns and Butter for everyone at the same time. Just so long as the war(s) don't cut into their social programs they'll be happy.

And those Obama supporters that truly want to see the US stop trying to dictate how other nations live? With the way the election is going their usefulness is about at its end. Might as well save a step and throw themselves under the bus.

"If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.

Two brigades? Why even bother? If you don't get the troop levels at least up to Iraq levels, nothing is going to change there at all. I don't think we should even be there any longer, but damn, if he's going to act like he wants action, take action.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

I think it's a much harder assignment that Iraq, given the terrain. If Iraq took five years and counting, Afghanistan is forever.

Afghanistan is vastly more difficult than Iraq. All those mountains, and the primitive road networks, the barrenness of the country, all those things make the occupation more difficult. Not to mention that at some point, looking at all the rocky nothing, one is apt to wonder "Why are we even here?"

The Soviets landed nearly half a million soldiers on one day in 1979, had "control" of the entire country in 24 hours and then bled slowly from thousands of duck bites over the course of 10 years. They really didn't have that many deaths, only around 15K, but they had vast numbers incapacitated due to preventable disease. I think their occupation force was around 150K, but I'm trying to recall only using my memory, so I could be low.

We've used similar tactics that the Soviets had some success with, until we stated importing Stingers into the country. They would detect, using various electronic and human means, the presence of enemy, and then send Spetznaz in HINDs to eliminate them. For anyone who says "We need to take the gloves off," Russian soldiers and the Russian military tend to leave the gloves at home, and still they couldn't pacify that land, even after prodigious use of firepower. We remarked that there wasn't a whole lot for the USAF to bomb, since everything was only a quarter inch tall.

The absolute best solution is to ignore the SE corner of that land (even though the TAPI pipeline is going to run through there-sorry oil guys, you've got to fund your own defense of your material), find a way to set up a legitimate government for Kabul, while walking away. Sadly, the sharp dressed Mayor of Kabul Karzai would have to flee, but I'm sure someone could be found who could put a modicum of stability on that city. And that's about as far as that authority will go. If we could convince all the other nations that have been funding various factions in the country to stop doing so, they might be able to revert back to the way it's aways been, just with a little less fighting.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

This works in favor of defenders familiar with the land, not a hi-tech military. I honestly don't think our kids (with weak support at home, and having served in Iraq) have the fire in the belly for this mess.

Afghanistan has a border with China. A route that has been used many times for invasion of the ME and beyond.

Can you imagine how badly the Ruskies are salivating over these events? This is get even time.

Afghanistan has never been "conquered" for any length of time that I can recall. Afghans don't care to be anyone's colony. The Afghan men are about 7 feet tall [ slight exaggeration but my point is they are BIG] and are rugged fighters. The terrain of Afghanistan is unwelcoming and unforgiving to invading forces and favor Afghans defending themselves against invasion.

Pakistan and Iran and China and 3 former Soviet nations share borders with the Afghans. The Soviet Union fought the Afghans 1979-1989 and the Soviets learned a hard lesson.

Sending 150,000 troops to Afghanistan is peanuts. The Afghans, when riled up, will bleed all 150,000 troops slowly but surely and Russia will enable the Afghans to do it, laughing every time they sell the Afghans weaponry.

Here's what the Russians deployed and lost over a 10 year period in Afghanistan according to wiki - someone should send Obama a memo with this information before he commits us to fighting a full-fledged Afghanistan War.

"...Between December 25, 1979 and February 15, 1989 a total of 620,000 soldiers served with the forces in Afghanistan (though there were only 80,000-104,000 force at one time ), 525,000 in the Army, 90,000 with border troops and other KGB sub-units, 5,000 in independent formations of MVD Internal Troops and police. A further 21,000 personnel were with the Soviet troop contingent over the same period doing various white collar or manual jobs.

The total irrecoverable personnel losses of the Soviet Armed Forces, frontier and internal security troops came to 14,453. Soviet Army formations, units and HQ elements lost 13,833, KGB sub-units lost 572, MVD formations lost 28 and other ministries and departments lost 20 men. During this period 417 servicemen were missing in action or taken prisoner; 119 of these were later freed, of whom 97 returned to the USSR and 22 went to other countries.

There were 469,685 sick and wounded, of whom 53,753 or 11.44 percent, were wounded, injured or sustained concussion and 415,932 (88.56 percent) fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed or contracting serious diseases, 92 percent, or 10,751 men were left disabled.[55]

After the war ended, the Soviet Union were published figures of dead Soviet soldiers: Total - 13 836 people, on average - 1 537 people a year. According to updated figures, all in the war Soviet army lost 14 427, the KGB - 576, MIA - 28 people dead and missing [56]. Remains of Soviet trucks in Kandahar, Afghanistan, 2002. Remains of Soviet trucks in Kandahar, Afghanistan, 2002.

* 118 aircraft * 333 helicopters * 147 tanks * 1,314 IFV/APCs * 433 artillery guns and mortars * 1,138 radio sets and command vehicles * 510 engineering vehicles * 11,369 trucks and petrol tankers

One of the first things that struck me in 2001, when I was reading about our operations there was that it seemed like no one had done any simple research about the climate and terrain, let alone the culture there.

They sent the soldiers there with the desert boot (so far so good, it's an arid land) but found that there wasn't much desert, it was mostly mountains and rocky terrain that was absolutely destroying the boot that had been designed for sand. A quick look at what the Spetznaz used showed that they were using Chinese made tennis shoes. They even looked a bit like Chuck Taylors.

The mountains also caused problems. We had to borrow/lease a bunch of Hip-8s creatively named "Afghans" that were specially modified by the Soviets to be able to function at high altitudes. Guess no one bothered to find out what altitude does to rotary wing aircraft.

Afghanistan is a good place to have to defend, but a very difficult one to occupy. If we intend to be there for a long time, there's going to be a tremendous amount of infrastructure improvement required, and there's probably not going to be much return on the investment, since it's really not going to do much to help.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

The Iranian gov't would be very happy too because the Afghan Sunnis have been causing Iran trouble for years with their border intrusions. That's why Iran helped the DOD on the q.t. when Junior invaded Afghanistan. Furthermore, the thought of America getting into a bloody quagmire in Afghanistan after exiting a bloody quagmire in Iraq would leave few troops and $ to invade Iran. Yep, Iran would be cheering President Obama to re-deploy troops from Iraq to Afghanistan, that's for sure.

We need to get serious, the Russians never moved into Pakistan, even though they knew Saudi and American money was flooding into the country, training and arming the muj.

We have similarly treated Pakistan with kid gloves, despite their huge support and creation of sanctuaries for the jihadis.

Most essentially, Americans are sick and tired, don't care and would love to be left alone.

Awfully hard to conduct war in a democracy where the people don't give a shit, they want their cheap gas back and be left alone by the world.

SOVIET SOLDIERS IN AFGHANISTAN USING MORE HEROIN, US OFFICIALS SAY

The use of heroin among Soviet troops in Afghanistan is increasing, according to US officials.

Officials in the Drug Enforcement Administration and the State Department said recent intelligence reports suggest that the increase in heroin use is linked to morale problems among Soviet troops.

The officials said some supporters of Afghan rebels fighting the Soviet forces claimed that they were selling heroin to the soldiers to weaken the Russian war effort.

On Thursday, a spokesman for the Afghan Embassy in Washington called the reports of increased heroin use among Soviet troops "not true." He declined further comment.

Repeated efforts to reach officials at the Soviet Embassy in Washington for comment were unsuccessful.

US officials stressed that not all the Afghans who are trading drugs are doing it to support the resistance efforts. Some, they said, are doing it primarily for money.

Since the Soviet Union intervened militarily in Afghanistan in 1979, hashish use among Soviet troops has been commonplace, officials said. But they said the use of much stronger and addictive opiates, mostly heroin, has increased dramatically in the past year.

Guns, belts, clothing and especially Soviet fur caps, which have in the past been traded by soldiers for hashish, more frequently are being traded for heroin, US officials say.

"Afghanistan is becoming their Vietnam," said Douglas Wankeo, senior staff coordinator for international programs at the DEA, referring to a similar pattern of drug use among American troops stationed in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War.

The reported increase of heroin use comes as Soviet officials have admitted that a drug problem exists in the Soviet Union and as the Soviet leader, Mikhail S. Gorbachev, hints he wants to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.

Olin Robison, president of Middlebury College in Middlebury, Vt., who this week returned from a visit to the Soviet Union, said Gorbachev candidly spoke about "drunkenness and drug use" among Soviet citizens during a six-hour speech on Tuesday at a plenary session of the Communist Party's Central Committee.

"You can assume that if Gorbachev has gone public, it's a serious problem," said Robison. "The Soviets in the past have steadfastly refused to acknowledge" drug abuse among citizens.

The intelligence reports also come amid a marked increase of seizures of Afghan-grown drugs bound for the Soviet Union. Last month, Soviet officials in Moscow seized a ton of Afghan hashish in a train bound for Europe. In August, 220 kilograms of heroin hidden in a shipment of Afghan raisins were seized in a Soviet ship in the Netherlands.

"This is all starting a bit of a trade in the Soviet Union," said one DEA agent.

Afghanistan is a major source of opium, of which heroin is a derivative, and marijuana-based products, including hashish. DEA and State Department officials say heroin production in Afghanistan, slowed greatly by the Soviet military intervention and subsequent fighting, has increased steadily since late 1984.

A DEA official said Soviet military leaders did not actively discourage hashish use among troops "because it placated them. Heroin is a different story. They are trying to control it."

Rebel commanders and Russian defectors living with Afghan rebels have told Western diplomats that rebel forces have captured Russian soldiers who were under the influence of drugs, US officials say.

A State Department official said that in recent months, Western diplomats in Kabul, the Afghan capital, heard of plans to teach Afghan health officials about drug rehabilitation methods in Moscow. There are also unconfirmed reports that a facility to treat drug-dependent Russians has been opened in Kabul.

"Hash is a problem in its own sense, probably less a problem than vodka," said one DEA agent who was stationed in Afghanistan before the Soviets intervened, then moved to Pakistan, which borders Afghanistan. "Heroin poses a new and much more serious threat. Heroin is extremely addictive and it can kill you."

Habibullah Mayar, chairman of an organization called the Afghan Community in America, a group of Afghan exiles that supports the Afghan rebels, said that some Afghans are purposely supplying Soviet soldiers with drugs in an effort to demoralize and weaken the troops.

"There are different ways of fighting," said Mayar, in a telephone interview from New York. "You don't have to pick up a gun. Any way to hurt the Russians -- by drug, by heroin, by hashish."

However, Mayar said he did not believe that any rebels were supplying drugs to the Soviets.

He said the drug suppliers are "not the resistance leaders, not the freedom fighters, but those who support the freedom fighters," he said. "These are villagers. Any way you can support the freedom fighters, you do."

Rebel leaders have consistently denied involvement in the drug trade, saying that Islamic teachings spelled out in the Koran are against both drugs and alcohol.

A DEA official who asked not to be identified said US agents have investigated allegations that rebel forces were trading drugs for guns.

"Our assessment is we don't find it, even though it would seem logical," said the official. "With the money the rebels get from the Saudis, Egypt and other Western countries, I think they realize while they've got international sympathy, if they get tagged as drug dealers they would lose some commitment in the form of money."

However, a DEA agent who was once stationed in Afghanistan said he believes that some rebels are involved in drug trafficking, especially in the northern provinces, where government forces do not venture and the lines between nomad, drug dealer and rebel often blur.

"You can be a freedom fighter today, a drug trafficker tomorrow, a loyalist the next day," said the agent. "I do think there's a conscious effort on the part of freedom fighters to cause havoc among the Russians by causing drug addiction. I don't think it's a formal policy of the rebels. Knowing how they operate, they can't get along with each other, let alone agree" on a policy that would violate Islamic teachings.

A State Department official who asked not to be identified said the main reasons Soviet soldiers are apparently graduating from hashish to heroin use are similar to why American troops went from marijuana to heroin in Vietnam: boredom and despair.

"It's hard to put numbers on this, but the drug use is going up as morale tends to go down," the official said. "The morale is going down because a military solution seems farther and farther away. We estimate there are about 115,000 Soviet troops in Afghanistan. A little more than half of them are in the category you might call twiddling their thumbs. They are not in the air force, not on maneuvers, just guarding installations and roadways. It seems they're moving on to heroin."

Mayar said the Soviets' burgeoning drug problem "is their own fault."

"The only way trucks can go from one town to the next is to give hashish to the Russian soldiers," he said.

Mayar said he saw no moral dilemma in supplying drugs to Soviet troops. "They have destroyed our villages; they have killed our people," he said.

Besides, Mayar said, the tactic of destroying the Soviet troops from within seems to be working.

"Russia is admitting it has a drug problem," he said.