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Science/Tech
See other Science/Tech Articles

Title: No smoking hot spot
Source: The Australian
URL Source: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.a ... /0,25197,24036736-7583,00.html
Published: Jul 18, 2008
Author: David Evans
Post Date: 2008-07-18 13:33:59 by farmfriend
Ping List: *Agriculture-Environment*     Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*
Keywords: None
Views: 1785
Comments: 126

No smoking hot spot

David Evans | July 18, 2008

I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector.

FullCAM models carbon flows in plants, mulch, debris, soils and agricultural products, using inputs such as climate data, plant physiology and satellite data. I've been following the global warming debate closely for years.

When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects.

The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.

But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:

1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.

Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.

If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.

When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.

Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.

2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.

3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.

4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.

The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion.

Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming.

So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.

In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.

If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.

What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.

The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.

Dr David Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005. Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*

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#27. To: FormerLurker (#18)

I'm not really sure if that is true or not, as I don't really pay Al Gore much attention. How is he making a fortune?

Are you serious? You should pay attention to crooks and thieves who tell you the sky is falling but they will keep any of the big pieces from hitting you if you will just make an "investment" in one of their companies or buy some of their bs "carbon credits." LOL!

As NewsBusters reported here, here, and here, there are huge dollars to be made from global warming alarmism. However, conceivably no one is better positioned to financially benefit from this scam than Dr. Global Warming himself, former Vice President Al Gore, a fact that the media will surely not share with Americans any time soon.

Yet, if America’s press would take some time out of their busy schedules covering the earth-shattering details surrounding Anna Nicole Smith’s demise, they might find a deliciously inconvenient truth about the soon-to-be-Dr. Gore that is significantly more fascinating and diabolical than anything likely to emerge from that courtroom in Broward County, Florida.

As reported by Dan Riehl (emphasis mine throughout):

Former Vice President Al Gore has built a Green money-making machine capable of eventually generating billions of dollars for investors, including himself, but he set it up so that the average Joe can't afford to play on Gore's terms. And the US portion is headed up by a former Gore staffer and fund raiser who previously ran afoul of both the FEC and the DOJ, before Janet Reno jumped in and shut down an investigation during the Clinton years.

Think Katie, Charlie, or Brian will be all over this tonight? Regardless, that was just the tip of the questionably melting iceberg as reported by Bill Hobbs in Nashville, Tennessee:

[H]ow Gore buys his "carbon offsets," as revealed by The Tennessean raises serious questions. According to the newspaper's report, Gore buys his carbon offsets through Generation Investment Management:

Gore helped found Generation Investment Management, through which he and others pay for offsets. The firm invests the money in solar, wind and other projects that reduce energy consumption around the globe...

Gore is chairman of the firm and, presumably, draws an income or will make money as its investments prosper. In other words, he "buys" his "carbon offsets" from himself, through a transaction designed to boost his own investments and return a profit to himself. To be blunt, Gore doesn't buy "carbon offsets" through Generation Investment Management - he buys stocks.

Fascinating. So, as Dr. Global Warming travels the world in his private jet while spending 20 times the average American on energy for his home, all the time telling us its okay because he’s buying carbon offsets, he’s actually purchasing these investments from himself.

Furthermore, and maybe more important, Gore stands to benefit financially in a potentially huge way if more and more people buy into this junk science.

Isn’t that special?

Yet, it is not clear that Gore’s money is going to purchase carbon offsets at all. Riehl reported:

Here's a list indicating what it takes to make money along with Al. Funds associated with these companies have placed millions of dollars under Al Gore's control. And, as you'll see below, Gore's selection for the US President of GIM might raise a few eyebrows as well.

AFLAC INC - AQUANTIVE INC - AUTODESK INC - BECTON DICKINSON & CO BLACKBAUD INC - GENERAL ELECTRIC CO - GREENHILL & CO INC - JOHNSON CTLS INC - LABORATORY CORP AMER HLDGS - METABOLIX INC - NORTHERN TR CORP - NUVEEN INVTS INC -STAPLES INC - SYSCO CORP - TECHNE CORP - UBS AG - VCA ANTECH INC - WATERS CORP - WHOLE FOODS MKT INC

According to their own documents, GIM intends to invest in, or buy companies poised to cash in on Global Warming concerns.

More at Media Ignore Al Gore’s Financial Ties to Global Warming

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-23   16:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: RickyJ (#26)

Scientists are no more moral than any other person is.

And many of them are completely immoral. They are just people, some of them good and some not so good.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-23   16:38:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: farmfriend (#22)

You still don't understand the concept of cycle 23 and 24 do you?

Don't play that game with me. I know, and you know, the impression the following sentence conveys;

"Three very tiny spots lasting 1-2 days during the last half year."

Most people could care less if it's solar cycle 0 or 999,999, the words, "Three very tiny spots lasting 1-2 days during the last half year", to most people mean ONLY THREE VERY TINY SPOTS DURING THE LAST SIX MONTHS.

And you know, and I know, and I'd bet even RickyJ knows, that is ONE BIG HUGE F'ING LIE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-23   17:50:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: RickyJ (#24)

The guy is a troll for the global warming scam. He must be on the payroll.

Fuck you pal. I bet you're taking money from AIPAC and the ADL, you certainly play the role of the forum Jew hater quite well.

People that care about the safety of the world and the environment are your enemies, where you pretend to care about the future of America so much, yet loathe those that actually try to fix what is wrong.

I bet you are one of those that posts on other forums against "Paultards" and suck up to Obama.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-23   17:54:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: James Deffenbach (#27)

So what would you rather do, sell all your worldly possessions in order to put gas in your tank and heat (or cool) your house, then cry about what went wrong, or try to realize that by enriching those whose only concern in life is making MORE money will simply make those people richer, and the rest of us poorer.

Those who are AGAINST alternative energy and power have an agenda, and that is to derail any serious consideration of those alternatives in order to ensure the oil companies will continue to monopolize the world's energy supply for the forseeable future.

I truly believe that those scientists who are the pioneers in the global warming theory are simply reporting the facts, and have not taken sides on the issue due to politics or promises of future fortunes.

When you look at exactly WHO IS behind the ANTI-global warming cabal however, you'll see those that DO stand to make enormous profits if the status quo stays the same.

I don't buy into this "carbon credit" idea, and think there has to be better and more realistic solutions to the problem. But just because the solution isn't perfect, or that there are those who are trying to profit from the problem that confronts us, doesn't mean that there is no problem.

So far, I've seen mostly bullshit and outright lies coming from global warming critics, yet have not seen ANYTHING like that coming from REAL scientists who have studied the matter over decades.

I am also surprised and saddened that I have seen those I once trusted and thought of as friends behave in ways I wouldn't have expected.

I would have thought the few people that that I've thought of as friends across both forums to be more skilled at discerning between facts and bullshit.

Apparently I was mistaken.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-23   18:13:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: FormerLurker (#31) (Edited)

So what would you rather do

I would rather not be taken in by Al Gore's stupid scam like so many have been.

Global Warming: A Chilling Perspective

I don't buy into this "carbon credit" idea, and think there has to be better and more realistic solutions to the problem. But just because the solution isn't perfect, or that there are those who are trying to profit from the problem that confronts us, doesn't mean that there is no problem.

There IS a problem with global warming... it stopped in 1998

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-23   19:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: FormerLurker (#31) (Edited)

When you look at exactly WHO IS behind the ANTI-global warming cabal however, you'll see those that DO stand to make enormous profits if the status quo stays the same.

If you look at who is pushing the AGW you will see the same folks who are pushing NAU and the NWO and for the same reasons. This has nothing to do with the environmrnt or saving the world. It has everything to do with global control.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-23   20:22:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: farmfriend (#33)

If you look at who is pushing the AGW you will see the same folks who are pushing NAU and the NWO

So you're trying to tell us that the Rockefellar's and the other oil tychoons are NOT trying to bring us the NAU and the NWO? How is Dr. James Hansen involved with the NAU?

What I HAVE noticed is that those who ARE involved with the NWO are painting their victims with the NWO brush, and projecting thier own crimes onto their targets.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:03:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: farmfriend (#33)

It has everything to do with global control.

And that is precisely what your pals are doing. He who controls the world's energy controls the world. The oil companies control the world's energy, so THEY are the ones who control the world.

It is those oil companies that are the biggest critics of global warming, and it is they who pay "consultants" to spew their anti-global warming propaganda.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:05:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: James Deffenbach (#32)

I would rather not be taken in by Al Gore's stupid scam like so many have been.

Global warming would have happened with or without Al Gore. Have you ever read about Dr. James Hansen?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:06:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: James Deffenbach (#32)

There IS a problem with global warming... it stopped in 1998

I don't find an editorial from a UK newspaper to be valid scientific evidence.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:09:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: FormerLurker (#34)

So you're trying to tell us that the Rockefellar's and the other oil tychoons are NOT trying to bring us the NAU and the NWO?

No, I'm trying to tell you that is who is behind AGW. I've even pointed it out to you in web sites and articles yet you refuse to see. You have bought into the NWO kool-aid with AGW. And yes, Hansen is not righteous in this by any stretch.

What I HAVE noticed is that those who ARE involved with the NWO are painting their victims with the NWO brush, and projecting thier own crimes onto their targets.

Understand, it is not the evil oil companies against the environment and science. It never has been. That's the NWO disinformation you are swallowing hook line and sinker.

AGW is part of Agenda 21, funded and pushed by the same foundations and for the same reasons.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-24   6:15:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: James Deffenbach (#32)

BTW, here's a little info on the author of that editorial you linked;

From Wikipedia

Carter is a prominent global warming sceptic and has consistently opposed the consensus view on global warming [1]. A March 2007 article by Sydney Morning Herald environmental reporter Wendy Frew said that "Professor Carter, whose background is in marine geology, appears to have little, if any, standing in the Australian climate science community." [2] While Carter is a frequent commentator on climate change, he has no published peer reviewed papers providing evidence to discredit the climate change consensus.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:16:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: farmfriend (#38)

No, I'm trying to tell you that is who is behind AGW.

You can tell me martians are behind it, but that doesn't mean I have to believe you, especially when you provide ZERO evidence.

You have bought into the NWO kool-aid with AGW

You're the one selling the kool-aid here sweetie, and I'm not buying it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:18:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: farmfriend (#38) (Edited)

Understand, it is not the evil oil companies against the environment and science. It never has been. That's the NWO disinformation you are swallowing hook line and sinker.

Oh, so the kind, loving, and wonderful oil companies only wish to do good and to help the world, eh? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They had NOTHING to do with 9/11 in terms of UNOCAL's desire to build a pipeline through Afghanistan, giving us a reason to INVADE that country and BUILD the f'ing pipeline.

They had NOTHING to do with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, in order to STEAL the Iraqi oil that big bad ole Saddam Hussein was sitting on.

They had NOTHING to do with bleeding us dry for bare essentials, due to the price of fuel these days.

No, they are VERY nice people who just love us dearly and want to help us.

And damn those people who don't see it that way, they are NWO disinfo agents.

You people have found a nice trick, I must admit. I never thought people would swallow such utter crap, but sure enough, they have, and they do.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:24:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: farmfriend (#38)

Hansen is not righteous in this by any stretch.

Oh, so what dirt do you have on Dr. Hansen?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: FormerLurker (#35)

And that is precisely what your pals are doing. He who controls the world's energy controls the world. The oil companies control the world's energy, so THEY are the ones who control the world.

Sigh. You are missing a big piece of the picture here. It is not the "oil companies" who are in control. It is the Rockefeller's et al and their foundations. You know this yet you refuse to see it when it comes to AGW.

Do you honestly believe that "the oil companies" want the status quo as you have stated? No they want government regulation driving prices up so they make more profits. This is done through foundation law suits, funding of "government science" and environmentalism.

Where do you think environmental and AGW funding comes from? Ford Foundation, Pew Foundations and the like.

Here is a quote from Carry_Okie again that I urge you to read in full:

The supply regulation game is at least as old as the Dutch East India Company's manipulation of coffee prices by controlling access to the plants. Understanding that sorry history of economic tyranny by European corporate royalty, the founders of this nation tried to design a limited government, one that didn't have the power to control private property or have control of resources. Control of access to resources is too much temptation for the wealthy to purchase corrupt influence that depresses everybody else. They Founders failed.

The key to cracking the Constitutional system was international law, a loophole in Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution, governing the adoption of treaties and the scope of their powers (IMO the rat Patrick Henry and others smelled only too clearly; if you want a good chuckle read Hamilton's defense of the manner of treaty ratification in Federalist #75). To implement the plan European investors needed a foothold in the US before they could get into the market. Until the Civil War, corporations were haltered in the US because they were not allowed to own land and were not protected under the Constitution in a manner co-equal to citizens. After the Civil War the US was deeply in debt to that very European investor class. The 14th Amendment changed that balance of power between the individual and corporate. Once the appropriate Supreme Court cases were in place interpreting persons "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as including corporate persons, corporations then derived equal protection under the laws and could own property, the investment floodgates opened, and that not only created an American industrial colossus, it produced an American investor class owning enormously influential private tax-exempt foundations.

So it isn't exactly by coincidence that it is those same colossal foundations that are making all those "charitable" donations to those icky Greens. The Environmental Grantmakers Association? That's Rockefeller. The Pew Charitable Trusts? That's Sunoco. W. Alton Jones? That's Citgo. The World Wildlife Fund? BP and Shell. You do see a pattern, don't you?

These are more than investors in energy, their assets include timber, mining, banking, food production… They aren't fools. They use the same simple and ancient recipe as did their European forbears by which to manufacture a predictable return: Kill the competition with regulations, create a shortage, and cash in. It's become so common there is even an excellent book out on the topic that I suggest you read, .

It's a simple process that has accelerated over the last five decades.

  1. Foist the necessary treaty law via (primarily American) NGOs at UN environmental agencies (largely funded by the US government).
  2. Get the implementing legislation through Congress.
  3. Use lawsuits by those same NGOs in federal courts to alter the meaning of the law.
  4. Overwhelm the agencies with graduates brainwashed by professors who subsist of government and foundation grants.
  5. Establish the regulatory power on the local level to control the decision- making with the cheapest politicians money can buy.
It's a vertically integrated racketeering system that extends over the entire planet. American investors in multinational operations are perfectly happy taking a hit on US operations destroying domestic production because their investments abroad get the business. They either convert domestic resource land to real estate or mothball it under tax exempt conservancies, Federal monuments, and such.

It's been done in industry after industry: timber, energy, mining, beef, fish, agriculture, real estate development, soon water… ALL taking advantage of economies of scale in environmental compliance and sometimes selective enforcement. Tax-exempt foundations buy the research "data" they need, fund a few ideological groups trained by the same professorate that lives off their grant money, and not a word need be breathed to the companies in which they are invested. Their pet executives wail about the regulations and scream how stupid and counterproductive they are, just like you do. It makes great theater. There is virtually no way of getting caught.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-24   6:29:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: farmfriend (#43)

Where do you think environmental and AGW funding comes from?

The taxpayers pay for NASA, and that is where Dr. James Hansen works. He is one of the early pioneers of the global warming theory, and is NOT working for those who you claim.

So your premise is flawed, and you misrepresent who the Rockefellar's et al actually support. For one, the entire idea of oil companies WANTING the government to impose higher taxes on fuel is insane, as it would REDUCE the demand for their products, not increase it. Secondly, a TAX does not go to THEM, it goes to the US government.

Besides all that, the REASON the tax would be imposed is to FORCE the development of alternative energy and fuels, either by existing companies or by new companies that could spring up IF viable alternate fuels and energy sources could be developed.

So no, the oil companies WOULD NOT benefit from the proposed taxes on fuel. I don't see it as a good idea to impose higher taxes on fuel at this point, however. I think the oil companies should be kicked off the corporate welfare and subsidies that they've been handed by their lackeys in Washington, if anything.

I also think the government should impose price control on gasoline, and not allow the obscene profits that the oil companies are currently raking in at the expense of the American People.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: farmfriend (#43)

It is not the "oil companies" who are in control. It is the Rockefeller's et al and their foundations.

Those two sentences conflict with each other. It is the Rockefellars et al and their foundations WHO OWN and CONTROL the oil companies.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:42:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: FormerLurker (#36) (Edited)

Global warming would have happened with or without Al Gore. Have you ever read about Dr. James Hansen?

You mean the shill who flacks for George Soros and wants us to believe the sky is falling? That Hansen? Another member of the Al Gore posse, at least he sounds like it.

And surely, global warming would happen with or without either of them or any of the people who pull their strings. The earth's climate is cyclical and goes through periods of warming and cooling. Most people knew that before all these folks started yammering about the sky falling. But don't be too alarmed, it isn't likely that any of the really big pieces will fall on you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:14:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: James Deffenbach (#46) (Edited)

You mean the shill who flacks for George Soros and wants us to believe the sky is falling?

I mean the Director of NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), at Columbia University.

You know, the one with the following education..

Hansen was trained in physics and astronomy in the space science program of Dr. James Van Allen at the University of Iowa. He obtained a B.A. in Physics and Mathematics with highest distinction in 1963, an M.S. in Astronomy in 1965 and a Ph.D. in Physics, in 1967, all three degrees from the University of Iowa. He participated in the NASA graduate traineeship from 1962 to 1966 and, at the same time, between 1965 and 1966, he was a visiting student at the Institute of Astrophysics at the University of Kyoto and in the Department of Astronomy at the University of Tokyo.

You know, the guy that has a whole bunch of peer reviewed papers published in scientific journals concerning planetary science and climate change dating back to 1966, with his climate change observations first published around 1976. I don't think Al Gore even knew what climate change was back in 1976, so I don't think Al invented the idea. I don't think Soros was much interested back then either.

Publications by James E. Hansen


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:31:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: FormerLurker (#37)

I don't find an editorial from a UK newspaper to be valid scientific evidence.

I notice you had nothing to say about the other link I posted for you: Global Warming: A Chilling Perspective. That isn't an editorial form a UK newspaper or any other newspaper. But I have noticed something with most of the firm believers in the global warming scam, it is like a religion to them, one which must not be questioned. Of course it doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket what you believe and I say if it makes you happy to think the sky is falling just keep believing that.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:31:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: FormerLurker (#39)

BTW, here's a little info on the author of that editorial you linked;

From Wikipedia

uh huh. And of course all the people who claim to be scientists and front for Soros and people like him are all climatologists. Yeah, sure they are.

And you do know that any of us can go on wikipedia and write any bs we want, right? At least if they haven't changed it and I haven't heard anything to that effect. Not saying I haven't used wikipedia as a source sometimes but I never take it as the last word on anything.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:41:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

I notice you had nothing to say about the other link I posted for you: Global Warming: A Chilling Perspective. That isn't an editorial form a UK newspaper or any other newspaper.

Oh, you mean that collection of thoughts from Monty Hieb, the Chief Engineer for West Virginia Miners Health, Safety & Training?

How is he supposed to be an "expert" on global warming and planetary science?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

it is like a religion to them

It certainly seems to be a religion to you, and to those whose words you parrot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:50:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: FormerLurker (#47)

All that may well be true but it is also true that global warming and cooling happened before his time. I would imagine that, all things being equal, it will continue that way.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:53:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: FormerLurker (#50)

Oh, you mean that collection of thoughts from Monty Hieb, the Chief Engineer for West Virginia Miners Health, Safety & Training?

Oh, of course. Anyone who doesn't shill for George Soros or Al Gore couldn't possibly know anything beyond the field they work in. How convenient.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:58:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: James Deffenbach (#49)

And you do know that any of us can go on wikipedia and write any bs we want, right?

So this is bullshit, eh?

How about this?

From Minchin denies climate change man- made

Professor Carter told the Herald yesterday the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had uncovered no evidence the warming of the planet was caused by human activity. He said the role of peer review in scientific literature was overstressed, and whether or not a scientist had been funded by the fossil fuel industry was irrelevant to the validity of research.

"I don't think it is the point whether or not you are paid by the coal or petroleum industry," said Professor Carter. "I will address the evidence."

A former CSIRO climate scientist, and now head of a new sustainability institute at Monash University, Graeme Pearman, said Professor Carter was not a credible source on climate change. "If he has any evidence that [global warming over the past 100 years] is a natural variability he should publish through the peer review process," Dr Pearman said. "That is what the rest of us have to do." He said he was letting the fossil fuel industry off the hook.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:58:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: FormerLurker (#51)

It certainly seems to be a religion to you, and to those whose words you parrot.

And whose words have I "parroted"?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:59:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: James Deffenbach (#53)

Anyone who doesn't shill for George Soros or Al Gore couldn't possibly know anything beyond the field they work in.

You must really hate Albert Einstein, as he didn't shill for the oil companies. You must also hate Isaac Newton, as you can't say he shilled for Soros or Gore, since they weren't alive back then.

Anyone that dares present facts and observations contrary to Exxon/Mobil's bottom line is a shill for Soros in your book.

I didn't think you were that brain washed and gullible, but I guess I was wrong.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:01:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: James Deffenbach (#55)

And whose words have I "parroted"?

Those of the oil companies' henchmen, and RNC smear operatives, such as farmfriend's pal who headed the swiftboat attack on Kerry and finds dirt on political enemies for Rush Limburgh.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

But I have noticed something with most of the firm believers in the global warming scam, it is like a religion to them, one which must not be questioned.

When one won't acknowledge the facts and continue to believe something that has no evidence to support it then you can conclude such a person is insane IMO.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-24   11:04:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: James Deffenbach (#53)

Anyone who doesn't shill for George Soros or Al Gore couldn't possibly know anything beyond the field they work in.

I fail to see how a safety engineer for the West Virginia Office of Miners' Health Safety & Training can be seen as a credible source on global warming.

Do you think NASA hires dummies that are less qualified than coal mine safety engineers to develop spacecraft and space missions?

Do you think they'd put some idiot in charge of their planetary science division?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:09:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: RickyJ (#58)

When one won't acknowledge the facts and continue to believe something that has no evidence to support it then you can conclude such a person is insane IMO.

Exactly. That is why you need stronger meds.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:10:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: FormerLurker (#54)

You know, this is getting a bit boring. I already told you that it doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket if you want to believe the sky is falling. I doubt any of the big pieces will hit you but who knows. Be careful out there, one of them might get you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   11:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: FormerLurker (#56)

You must really hate Albert Einstein, as he didn't shill for the oil companies. You must also hate Isaac Newton, as you can't say he shilled for Soros or Gore, since they weren't alive back then.

Either of them ever run around like an escapee from a mental institution yammering about the sky falling? No? I didn't think so. I think you might need to get your meds adjusted and as soon as possible.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   11:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: RickyJ (#58)

When one won't acknowledge the facts and continue to believe something that has no evidence to support it then you can conclude such a person is insane IMO.

Either that or they are being paid to promote something.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   11:15:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

Monty Hieb

Oh BTW, it turns out your pal Monty Hieb is a shill for the coal industry. Did you know that coal accounts for 93 percent of the CO2 emissions from the electric utility industry in the US?

My, what a coincidence he'd be trying to smear those who are trying to warn the world about man-made global warming...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:16:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: James Deffenbach (#62)

I think you might need to get your meds adjusted and as soon as possible.

Eat shit bud.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: James Deffenbach, RickyJ (#63)

Let's see, we have a shill for the coal and oil industries and a shill from the ADL posing as a Jew hater playing kissy face and swapping spit. How special.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:20:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: FormerLurker (#4)

I don't believe the rants of those who are biased in favor of their pet theory...

Oh please, are you being for real here? Do you not have mirrors in your house or do you just not cast a reflection???

The whole anthropogenic global warming climate change man does bad things (we might as well lump all the names together since they change for GWers based on public acceptance and multiple reinterpretations of data regularly...) is pet theory ranting with the objective of societal power grabbing...

Scientifically managed technocracy, that's what they want.

Government blows and that which governs least blows least...

Axenolith  posted on  2008-07-24   11:20:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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