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Science/Tech
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Title: No smoking hot spot
Source: The Australian
URL Source: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.a ... /0,25197,24036736-7583,00.html
Published: Jul 18, 2008
Author: David Evans
Post Date: 2008-07-18 13:33:59 by farmfriend
Ping List: *Agriculture-Environment*     Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*
Keywords: None
Views: 1756
Comments: 126

No smoking hot spot

David Evans | July 18, 2008

I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector.

FullCAM models carbon flows in plants, mulch, debris, soils and agricultural products, using inputs such as climate data, plant physiology and satellite data. I've been following the global warming debate closely for years.

When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects.

The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.

But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:

1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.

Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.

If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.

When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.

Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.

2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.

3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.

4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.

The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion.

Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming.

So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.

In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.

If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.

What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.

The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.

Dr David Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005. Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*

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#41. To: farmfriend (#38) (Edited)

Understand, it is not the evil oil companies against the environment and science. It never has been. That's the NWO disinformation you are swallowing hook line and sinker.

Oh, so the kind, loving, and wonderful oil companies only wish to do good and to help the world, eh? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They had NOTHING to do with 9/11 in terms of UNOCAL's desire to build a pipeline through Afghanistan, giving us a reason to INVADE that country and BUILD the f'ing pipeline.

They had NOTHING to do with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, in order to STEAL the Iraqi oil that big bad ole Saddam Hussein was sitting on.

They had NOTHING to do with bleeding us dry for bare essentials, due to the price of fuel these days.

No, they are VERY nice people who just love us dearly and want to help us.

And damn those people who don't see it that way, they are NWO disinfo agents.

You people have found a nice trick, I must admit. I never thought people would swallow such utter crap, but sure enough, they have, and they do.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:24:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: farmfriend (#38)

Hansen is not righteous in this by any stretch.

Oh, so what dirt do you have on Dr. Hansen?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: FormerLurker (#35)

And that is precisely what your pals are doing. He who controls the world's energy controls the world. The oil companies control the world's energy, so THEY are the ones who control the world.

Sigh. You are missing a big piece of the picture here. It is not the "oil companies" who are in control. It is the Rockefeller's et al and their foundations. You know this yet you refuse to see it when it comes to AGW.

Do you honestly believe that "the oil companies" want the status quo as you have stated? No they want government regulation driving prices up so they make more profits. This is done through foundation law suits, funding of "government science" and environmentalism.

Where do you think environmental and AGW funding comes from? Ford Foundation, Pew Foundations and the like.

Here is a quote from Carry_Okie again that I urge you to read in full:

The supply regulation game is at least as old as the Dutch East India Company's manipulation of coffee prices by controlling access to the plants. Understanding that sorry history of economic tyranny by European corporate royalty, the founders of this nation tried to design a limited government, one that didn't have the power to control private property or have control of resources. Control of access to resources is too much temptation for the wealthy to purchase corrupt influence that depresses everybody else. They Founders failed.

The key to cracking the Constitutional system was international law, a loophole in Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution, governing the adoption of treaties and the scope of their powers (IMO the rat Patrick Henry and others smelled only too clearly; if you want a good chuckle read Hamilton's defense of the manner of treaty ratification in Federalist #75). To implement the plan European investors needed a foothold in the US before they could get into the market. Until the Civil War, corporations were haltered in the US because they were not allowed to own land and were not protected under the Constitution in a manner co-equal to citizens. After the Civil War the US was deeply in debt to that very European investor class. The 14th Amendment changed that balance of power between the individual and corporate. Once the appropriate Supreme Court cases were in place interpreting persons "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as including corporate persons, corporations then derived equal protection under the laws and could own property, the investment floodgates opened, and that not only created an American industrial colossus, it produced an American investor class owning enormously influential private tax-exempt foundations.

So it isn't exactly by coincidence that it is those same colossal foundations that are making all those "charitable" donations to those icky Greens. The Environmental Grantmakers Association? That's Rockefeller. The Pew Charitable Trusts? That's Sunoco. W. Alton Jones? That's Citgo. The World Wildlife Fund? BP and Shell. You do see a pattern, don't you?

These are more than investors in energy, their assets include timber, mining, banking, food production… They aren't fools. They use the same simple and ancient recipe as did their European forbears by which to manufacture a predictable return: Kill the competition with regulations, create a shortage, and cash in. It's become so common there is even an excellent book out on the topic that I suggest you read, .

It's a simple process that has accelerated over the last five decades.

  1. Foist the necessary treaty law via (primarily American) NGOs at UN environmental agencies (largely funded by the US government).
  2. Get the implementing legislation through Congress.
  3. Use lawsuits by those same NGOs in federal courts to alter the meaning of the law.
  4. Overwhelm the agencies with graduates brainwashed by professors who subsist of government and foundation grants.
  5. Establish the regulatory power on the local level to control the decision- making with the cheapest politicians money can buy.
It's a vertically integrated racketeering system that extends over the entire planet. American investors in multinational operations are perfectly happy taking a hit on US operations destroying domestic production because their investments abroad get the business. They either convert domestic resource land to real estate or mothball it under tax exempt conservancies, Federal monuments, and such.

It's been done in industry after industry: timber, energy, mining, beef, fish, agriculture, real estate development, soon water… ALL taking advantage of economies of scale in environmental compliance and sometimes selective enforcement. Tax-exempt foundations buy the research "data" they need, fund a few ideological groups trained by the same professorate that lives off their grant money, and not a word need be breathed to the companies in which they are invested. Their pet executives wail about the regulations and scream how stupid and counterproductive they are, just like you do. It makes great theater. There is virtually no way of getting caught.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-24   6:29:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: farmfriend (#43)

Where do you think environmental and AGW funding comes from?

The taxpayers pay for NASA, and that is where Dr. James Hansen works. He is one of the early pioneers of the global warming theory, and is NOT working for those who you claim.

So your premise is flawed, and you misrepresent who the Rockefellar's et al actually support. For one, the entire idea of oil companies WANTING the government to impose higher taxes on fuel is insane, as it would REDUCE the demand for their products, not increase it. Secondly, a TAX does not go to THEM, it goes to the US government.

Besides all that, the REASON the tax would be imposed is to FORCE the development of alternative energy and fuels, either by existing companies or by new companies that could spring up IF viable alternate fuels and energy sources could be developed.

So no, the oil companies WOULD NOT benefit from the proposed taxes on fuel. I don't see it as a good idea to impose higher taxes on fuel at this point, however. I think the oil companies should be kicked off the corporate welfare and subsidies that they've been handed by their lackeys in Washington, if anything.

I also think the government should impose price control on gasoline, and not allow the obscene profits that the oil companies are currently raking in at the expense of the American People.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: farmfriend (#43)

It is not the "oil companies" who are in control. It is the Rockefeller's et al and their foundations.

Those two sentences conflict with each other. It is the Rockefellars et al and their foundations WHO OWN and CONTROL the oil companies.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   6:42:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: FormerLurker (#36) (Edited)

Global warming would have happened with or without Al Gore. Have you ever read about Dr. James Hansen?

You mean the shill who flacks for George Soros and wants us to believe the sky is falling? That Hansen? Another member of the Al Gore posse, at least he sounds like it.

And surely, global warming would happen with or without either of them or any of the people who pull their strings. The earth's climate is cyclical and goes through periods of warming and cooling. Most people knew that before all these folks started yammering about the sky falling. But don't be too alarmed, it isn't likely that any of the really big pieces will fall on you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:14:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: James Deffenbach (#46) (Edited)

You mean the shill who flacks for George Soros and wants us to believe the sky is falling?

I mean the Director of NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), at Columbia University.

You know, the one with the following education..

Hansen was trained in physics and astronomy in the space science program of Dr. James Van Allen at the University of Iowa. He obtained a B.A. in Physics and Mathematics with highest distinction in 1963, an M.S. in Astronomy in 1965 and a Ph.D. in Physics, in 1967, all three degrees from the University of Iowa. He participated in the NASA graduate traineeship from 1962 to 1966 and, at the same time, between 1965 and 1966, he was a visiting student at the Institute of Astrophysics at the University of Kyoto and in the Department of Astronomy at the University of Tokyo.

You know, the guy that has a whole bunch of peer reviewed papers published in scientific journals concerning planetary science and climate change dating back to 1966, with his climate change observations first published around 1976. I don't think Al Gore even knew what climate change was back in 1976, so I don't think Al invented the idea. I don't think Soros was much interested back then either.

Publications by James E. Hansen


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:31:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: FormerLurker (#37)

I don't find an editorial from a UK newspaper to be valid scientific evidence.

I notice you had nothing to say about the other link I posted for you: Global Warming: A Chilling Perspective. That isn't an editorial form a UK newspaper or any other newspaper. But I have noticed something with most of the firm believers in the global warming scam, it is like a religion to them, one which must not be questioned. Of course it doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket what you believe and I say if it makes you happy to think the sky is falling just keep believing that.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:31:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: FormerLurker (#39)

BTW, here's a little info on the author of that editorial you linked;

From Wikipedia

uh huh. And of course all the people who claim to be scientists and front for Soros and people like him are all climatologists. Yeah, sure they are.

And you do know that any of us can go on wikipedia and write any bs we want, right? At least if they haven't changed it and I haven't heard anything to that effect. Not saying I haven't used wikipedia as a source sometimes but I never take it as the last word on anything.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:41:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

I notice you had nothing to say about the other link I posted for you: Global Warming: A Chilling Perspective. That isn't an editorial form a UK newspaper or any other newspaper.

Oh, you mean that collection of thoughts from Monty Hieb, the Chief Engineer for West Virginia Miners Health, Safety & Training?

How is he supposed to be an "expert" on global warming and planetary science?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

it is like a religion to them

It certainly seems to be a religion to you, and to those whose words you parrot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:50:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: FormerLurker (#47)

All that may well be true but it is also true that global warming and cooling happened before his time. I would imagine that, all things being equal, it will continue that way.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:53:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: FormerLurker (#50)

Oh, you mean that collection of thoughts from Monty Hieb, the Chief Engineer for West Virginia Miners Health, Safety & Training?

Oh, of course. Anyone who doesn't shill for George Soros or Al Gore couldn't possibly know anything beyond the field they work in. How convenient.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:58:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: James Deffenbach (#49)

And you do know that any of us can go on wikipedia and write any bs we want, right?

So this is bullshit, eh?

How about this?

From Minchin denies climate change man- made

Professor Carter told the Herald yesterday the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had uncovered no evidence the warming of the planet was caused by human activity. He said the role of peer review in scientific literature was overstressed, and whether or not a scientist had been funded by the fossil fuel industry was irrelevant to the validity of research.

"I don't think it is the point whether or not you are paid by the coal or petroleum industry," said Professor Carter. "I will address the evidence."

A former CSIRO climate scientist, and now head of a new sustainability institute at Monash University, Graeme Pearman, said Professor Carter was not a credible source on climate change. "If he has any evidence that [global warming over the past 100 years] is a natural variability he should publish through the peer review process," Dr Pearman said. "That is what the rest of us have to do." He said he was letting the fossil fuel industry off the hook.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   10:58:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: FormerLurker (#51)

It certainly seems to be a religion to you, and to those whose words you parrot.

And whose words have I "parroted"?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   10:59:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: James Deffenbach (#53)

Anyone who doesn't shill for George Soros or Al Gore couldn't possibly know anything beyond the field they work in.

You must really hate Albert Einstein, as he didn't shill for the oil companies. You must also hate Isaac Newton, as you can't say he shilled for Soros or Gore, since they weren't alive back then.

Anyone that dares present facts and observations contrary to Exxon/Mobil's bottom line is a shill for Soros in your book.

I didn't think you were that brain washed and gullible, but I guess I was wrong.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:01:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: James Deffenbach (#55)

And whose words have I "parroted"?

Those of the oil companies' henchmen, and RNC smear operatives, such as farmfriend's pal who headed the swiftboat attack on Kerry and finds dirt on political enemies for Rush Limburgh.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

But I have noticed something with most of the firm believers in the global warming scam, it is like a religion to them, one which must not be questioned.

When one won't acknowledge the facts and continue to believe something that has no evidence to support it then you can conclude such a person is insane IMO.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-24   11:04:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: James Deffenbach (#53)

Anyone who doesn't shill for George Soros or Al Gore couldn't possibly know anything beyond the field they work in.

I fail to see how a safety engineer for the West Virginia Office of Miners' Health Safety & Training can be seen as a credible source on global warming.

Do you think NASA hires dummies that are less qualified than coal mine safety engineers to develop spacecraft and space missions?

Do you think they'd put some idiot in charge of their planetary science division?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:09:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: RickyJ (#58)

When one won't acknowledge the facts and continue to believe something that has no evidence to support it then you can conclude such a person is insane IMO.

Exactly. That is why you need stronger meds.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:10:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: FormerLurker (#54)

You know, this is getting a bit boring. I already told you that it doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket if you want to believe the sky is falling. I doubt any of the big pieces will hit you but who knows. Be careful out there, one of them might get you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   11:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: FormerLurker (#56)

You must really hate Albert Einstein, as he didn't shill for the oil companies. You must also hate Isaac Newton, as you can't say he shilled for Soros or Gore, since they weren't alive back then.

Either of them ever run around like an escapee from a mental institution yammering about the sky falling? No? I didn't think so. I think you might need to get your meds adjusted and as soon as possible.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   11:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: RickyJ (#58)

When one won't acknowledge the facts and continue to believe something that has no evidence to support it then you can conclude such a person is insane IMO.

Either that or they are being paid to promote something.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   11:15:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: James Deffenbach (#48)

Monty Hieb

Oh BTW, it turns out your pal Monty Hieb is a shill for the coal industry. Did you know that coal accounts for 93 percent of the CO2 emissions from the electric utility industry in the US?

My, what a coincidence he'd be trying to smear those who are trying to warn the world about man-made global warming...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:16:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: James Deffenbach (#62)

I think you might need to get your meds adjusted and as soon as possible.

Eat shit bud.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: James Deffenbach, RickyJ (#63)

Let's see, we have a shill for the coal and oil industries and a shill from the ADL posing as a Jew hater playing kissy face and swapping spit. How special.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:20:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: FormerLurker (#4)

I don't believe the rants of those who are biased in favor of their pet theory...

Oh please, are you being for real here? Do you not have mirrors in your house or do you just not cast a reflection???

The whole anthropogenic global warming climate change man does bad things (we might as well lump all the names together since they change for GWers based on public acceptance and multiple reinterpretations of data regularly...) is pet theory ranting with the objective of societal power grabbing...

Scientifically managed technocracy, that's what they want.

Government blows and that which governs least blows least...

Axenolith  posted on  2008-07-24   11:20:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: FormerLurker (#6)

I'd believe a team of NASA scientists before I'd believe a random quack that collects his pay from Exxon/Mobil...

FL - The... Government... Has... Our... Best... Interests... At... Heart...

As for random quack, he DID create the modeling warez, you're not going to weasel oout on a "creds" arguement on this one...

Government blows and that which governs least blows least...

Axenolith  posted on  2008-07-24   11:24:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: FormerLurker (#13)

The atomic bomb was just a theory before they actually put one together and blew it up.

Yea, and they put it together and blew it up AFTER gathering enough QUANTITATIVE evidence that it would work, they didn't think up the concept, then gather a bunch of sand and try to compress it with cap gun caps to intitiate the chain reaction...

Government blows and that which governs least blows least...

Axenolith  posted on  2008-07-24   11:28:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Axenolith (#67)

Scientifically managed technocracy, that's what they want.

The bottom line is that the oil and coal industries lose money if the world stops buying their product.

They can and will fight that to the bitter end.

If you don't understand that, then you need to think long and hard about what money is all about, and what a group of people who control the world's energy supply would do to maintain that control.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   11:38:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Axenolith (#68)

FL - The... Government... Has... Our... Best... Interests... At... Heart...

As for random quack, he DID create the modeling warez, you're not going to weasel oout on a "creds" arguement on this one...

Actually, the government itself sides with the oil companies, as expected. Bush's people have tried to silence scientists such as Dr. Hansen. So are you now a big fan of "W" Bush and Dick Cheney, who is also on the anti-global warming bandwagon?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   12:22:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: FormerLurker (#71)

Bush's people have tried to silence scientists such as Dr. Hansen.

Dr. Hansen is a quack. Global cooling is occurring right now. More CO2 in the atmosphere is good for the Earth and all living things. Do some research and find out how very little infrared radiation from Earth actually is affected by CO2 compared to water vapor and you will then have to acknowledge that CO2 cannot cause runaway global warming on Earth.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-24   12:28:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: FormerLurker (#70) (Edited)

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-24   12:34:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: FormerLurker (#70) (Edited)

The bottom line is that the oil and coal industries lose money if the world stops buying their product.

Yes they will but that doesn't mean that CO2 causes runaway global warming. The oil and gas companies are actively blocking new breakthroughs in solar panel technologies by lobbying the government to block land use for experiments due to "environmental" concerns. Yes, the oil and gas companies don't care about cheap energy or alternate forms of energy and they are hurting us all by being so greedy. But that doesn't change the fact that more CO2 in the atmosphere is actually good for Earth and not bad and in no way can cause runaway global warming.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-24   12:34:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: RickyJ (#72)

Dr. Hansen is a quack. Global cooling is occurring right now.

And who told you that, your mentor George Bush, or your master Dick Cheney?

Report Links Cheney Office, Oil Giant to Global Warming Policy Shift


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   12:46:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: RickyJ (#72)

Do some research and find out how very little infrared radiation from Earth actually is affected by CO2 compared to water vapor and you will then have to acknowledge that CO2 cannot cause runaway global warming on Earth.

Time for YOU to do some research. By ITSELF, CO2 might not pose as much of a risk, but as there are OTHER greenhouse gases emitted by man, it DOES pose a risk when the other gases are taken into consideration.

Try reading these publications, educate yourself on any science you might not understand, then after a year or more, maybe you could actually make a valid statement concerning the topic.

Publications

As of late, you've posted fraudulent info concerning sunspots and a fraudulent petition with fake names posing as a real petition signed by real scientists. So I take what you post as just the ranting of someone who either doesn't know the first thing of what he's talking about, or one who is deliberately posting false information for profit and/or pleasure.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   12:54:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: FormerLurker (#66)

Let's see, we have a shill for the coal and oil industries and a shill from the ADL posing as a Jew hater playing kissy face and swapping spit. How special.

Yeah, if anyone doesn't buy into Al's bs about the sky falling they just automatically must be a shill for the coal and oil industry. Never mind the fact that I have never received a penny for my "shilling," but have paid them plenty for the gas I use. I couldn't give less than two $#it$ about the "coal and oil industries," never have derived any benefit from them. But your hero, Hansen, takes all the money Soros throws at him. And isn't that "special"?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   14:22:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: FormerLurker (#65)

Eat shit bud.

I was out of line about getting your meds adjusted. I understand that you are passionate about what you believe and that is ok. I tried to tell you more than once that your beliefs are your business and if you want to believe in "global warming" have at it. But I was wrong to make it personal I guess. Just got tired of all that stuff about how people who worked for the government were so smart and how it would be almost impossible for them to be wrong (and that is the way you come across on this issue). But anyway, I apologize to you for saying what I did about getting your meds adjusted, it was uncalled for.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   14:30:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: James Deffenbach (#77)

But your hero, Hansen, takes all the money Soros throws at him.

Soros funds NASA? That's funny, I thought it was the US taxpayers.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-24   14:51:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: FormerLurker (#79)

Soros funds NASA?

That isn't what I said. Soros has provided mega money to Hansen. I didn't say a word about him funding NASA. Here is an article I found about Hansen and I imagine there are more.

Is Global Warming Alarmist James Hansen a Shill for George Soros? By Jake Gontesky

The claims against anthropogenic global warming skeptics are often the same: they're all shills for big oil or other industry wishing to poke holes in the 'consensus theory' of global warming (which isn't a consensus at all). Under the so-called "politicization of science" program, George Soros' (the favorite fundraiser of many democrats) has reportedly given as much as $720,000 to Hansen to help package his alarmist claims and get them pushed by the mainstream media (The Soros Threat to Democracy):

How many people, for instance, know that James Hansen, a man billed as a lonely "NASA whistleblower" standing up to the mighty U.S. government, was really funded by Soros' Open Society Institute , which gave him "legal and media advice"?

That's right, Hansen was packaged for the media by Soros' flagship "philanthropy," by as much as $720,000, most likely under the OSI's "politicization of science" program.

So he got some big paychecks from Soros - but was there a quid pro quo? The evidence certainly indicates as much:

That may have meant that Hansen had media flacks help him get on the evening news to push his agenda and lawyers pressuring officials to let him spout his supposedly "censored" spiel for weeks in the name of advancing the global warming agenda.

Hansen even succeeded, with public pressure from his nightly news performances, in forcing NASA to change its media policies to his advantage. Had Hansen's OSI-funding been known, the public might have viewed the whole production differently. The outcome could have been different.

Did Soros' funding pay off? You be the judge. Do a quick google search on James Hansen to read any of the thousands of mainstream media stories touting Hansen's claims of censorship by the Bush administration. This wouldn't be the first time credibility questions have been raised regarding Hansen and his alarmist claims [see "When does 1,400 Media Interviews = Muzzled" (03/20/07)].

But the alarmist's favorite poster-boy James Hansen is hardly the only benefactor of Soros' funding designed to get more media play for politicized topics important to the left - check out the full article for more on the non-disclosure disclosures regarding immigration and other big topics of the day. ___________________

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   15:51:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Axenolith (#67)

Scientifically managed technocracy,

Now that's a mouthful.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-24   16:33:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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