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Science/Tech
See other Science/Tech Articles

Title: No smoking hot spot
Source: The Australian
URL Source: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.a ... /0,25197,24036736-7583,00.html
Published: Jul 18, 2008
Author: David Evans
Post Date: 2008-07-18 13:33:59 by farmfriend
Ping List: *Agriculture-Environment*     Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*
Keywords: None
Views: 1798
Comments: 126

No smoking hot spot

David Evans | July 18, 2008

I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector.

FullCAM models carbon flows in plants, mulch, debris, soils and agricultural products, using inputs such as climate data, plant physiology and satellite data. I've been following the global warming debate closely for years.

When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects.

The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.

But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:

1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.

Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.

If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.

When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.

Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.

2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.

3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.

4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.

The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion.

Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming.

So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.

In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.

If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.

What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.

The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.

Dr David Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005. Subscribe to *Agriculture-Environment*

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#87. To: farmfriend (#85)

Did you read the recent study showing that the deserts are a bigger carbon sink than forests? Quite the surprise. Do you think we will see enviros calling for increasing desert size to offset carbon emissions?

It all depends on what Al tells them to do I suppose.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-24   18:45:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: FormerLurker (#71)

FL, you need to get over the concept of a "cabal" controlling oil interests and over the fact that whether or not their is a cabal, it's irrelevant to the climate debate.

The western oil companies comprise about 15-20% of total world oil companies, with most of the rest, far bigger, being government owned.

The planet is awash in hydrocarbons, they're use is not, and won't perceptibly for quite a while if ever, contribute significantly to the climate dynamics.

The KEY point is that their use is widespread enough, and the conundrum posed by the government paid fear mongerers is nebulous enough, that you can force policy through it and gain greater control.

Haven't you noticed that it's like the freakin' Borg lately, Ads everywhere, R's and D's laying side by side on the issue???

Government blows and that which governs least blows least...

Axenolith  posted on  2008-07-25   1:37:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: farmfriend, James Deffenbach, Axenolith, Original_Intent, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, angle (#82)

FL never appologizes for the personal attacks he lobs and he spends more time doing that then arguing the science. For my part, I'll continue to post science information.

Hey farmgirl, for one I don't spend 24/7 on Internet chat boards or forums, I actually work for a living. For two, I see you as an agent provocateur here on this forum, leading the sheep to the slaughter.

You post mostly propaganda, and use that propaganda to troll for a response to it, pinging people that you know will find the material false and/or misleading. After baiting said people, you launch attacks on them and then cry that you've been personally offended.

You are playing a game here, and it's a game only played by those who either collect money for their efforts, or who are quite insane.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   14:14:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Axenolith (#88)

The planet is awash in hydrocarbons, they're use is not, and won't perceptibly for quite a while if ever, contribute significantly to the climate dynamics.

You don't know that, and scientists with much more knowledge and experience in the matter than you or I have said the opposite.

Remember, it's not the government that is warning us about global warming, it's a neutral body of scientists who are simply doing their job that are doing so.

Cheney and his oil buddies are on YOUR side, where they oppose the concept of global warming. Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   14:50:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: farmfriend (#85) (Edited)

Did you read the recent study showing that the deserts are a bigger carbon sink than forests?

Uh uh. There is a team of Chinese scientists who have made that claim, yet they can't account for where the CO2 would go if the sand actually did absorb CO2 as they claim. The evidence is shakey at best, and it isn't for certain that the claim is valid.

Of course you treat it as gospel.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   14:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: FormerLurker (#89) (Edited)

I suggest the bozo.

angle  posted on  2008-07-25   14:56:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: farmfriend (#84)

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/varv07192008a.jpg

Speaking of ad hominem attacks....


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   14:57:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: angle (#92)

I suggest the bozo.

I've never bozo'd anyone here, and don't intend to. I like to know what's being said about me, especially by one as determined as her to trash me here on the 4um.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   14:59:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: James Deffenbach (#78)

Just got tired of all that stuff about how people who worked for the government were so smart and how it would be almost impossible for them to be wrong (and that is the way you come across on this issue).

I was trying to point out that dedicated scientists who work at NASA and who have the most advanced equipment available to gather and collect data are a bit more believable than some "consultant" who works for Exxon/Mobil in order to debunk the claims made by NASA scientists.

That is especially true when one considers the fact that those claims WOULD negatively impact oil company and coal industry profits if they resulted in corrective measures such as alternative fuels and energy sources.

But anyway, I apologize to you for saying what I did about getting your meds adjusted, it was uncalled for.

If you were who I thought you were, I doubt you would have even thought of saying that since we had come to each other's defence countless times on another forum.

I've never personally attacked you nor made you appear to be an idiot, which I COULD have done if I was so inclined.

Anyways, apology accepted. I reacted harshly due to the surprise and betrayal I felt from your words.

I apologize for those comments.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   15:11:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: James Deffenbach (#80)

Under the so-called "politicization of science" program, George Soros' (the favorite fundraiser of many democrats) has reportedly given as much as $720,000 to Hansen to help package his alarmist claims and get them pushed by the mainstream media (The Soros Threat to Democracy):

That is a claim made in an editorial, with NO supporting evidence. One link I found referred to a Soros PDF file, where if you look through it closely, there is NO reference to Hansen receiving money from Soros.

Besides, from what I've seen, Soros has been a huge pain in the ass for neocons and zionists, but I don't see why people who claim to be patriots would have a problem with him.

As far as Hansen, yes, he did have quite a few media interviews largely BECAUSE of NASA's former policy of censoring his remarks and articles concerning global warming.

But he and his team WERE being censored for a period of time...

Watchdog: NASA misled on global warming studies

So are you a fan of Dick Cheney all of a sudden?

Report Links Cheney Office, Oil Giant to Global Warming Policy Shift


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   15:30:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: FormerLurker (#89)

Hey farmgirl, for one I don't spend 24/7 on Internet chat boards or forums, I actually work for a living. For two, I see you as an agent provocateur here on this forum, leading the sheep to the slaughter.

I work as well and I don't give a shit how you see me. I have a well documented internet history. Too many people know who I am and what I do. Remember this crap was tried on me over at LP when I came out against the MCDC. People tried to lob these same accusation against me. What happened? People who knew me but were on the oppisite side of the argument came out and spoke in my favor. It didn't work there and it won't work here.

You post mostly propaganda, and use that propaganda to troll for a response to it, pinging people that you know will find the material false and/or misleading. After baiting said people, you launch attacks on them and then cry that you've been personally offended.

*shakes head* I post interesting articles on a subject I've dealt with for many years now going back to the Klamath Basin Crisis. I ping people who have signed up for a list. I don't care what side of the argument they are on. I've maintained a similar list on FR, LP, and LF. As I recall you were the one whining about being personally attacked not me.

You are playing a game here, and it's a game only played by those who either collect money for their efforts, or who are quite insane.

I'm not playing any game. I take our freedoms including property and water rights very serious. AGW is just the latest issue used to take our rights from us.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-25   18:19:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Axenolith, FormerLurker (#90) (Edited)

You don't know that, and scientists with much more knowledge and experience in the matter than you or I have said the opposite.

Now that is just plain funny.

Remember, it's not the government that is warning us about global warming, it's a neutral body of scientists who are simply doing their job that are doing so.

That's even funnier.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-25   18:21:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: FormerLurker (#94)

I like to know what's being said about me, especially by one as determined as her to trash me here on the 4um.

Where exactly have I tried to trash you? As I recall you were the one trashing me in PMs to everyone. I am not the one making unfounded accusations against your character thread after thread after thread.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-25   18:27:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: FormerLurker (#95)

1. I was trying to point out that dedicated scientists who work at NASA and who have the most advanced equipment available to gather and collect data are a bit more believable than some "consultant" who works for Exxon/Mobil in order to debunk the claims made by NASA scientists.

2. I've never personally attacked you nor made you appear to be an idiot, which I COULD have done if I was so inclined.

3. Anyways, apology accepted. I reacted harshly due to the surprise and betrayal I felt from your words.

I apologize for those comments.

1. You wouldn't seriously suggest that ALL of the scientists who say that global warming is a bunch of bs work for Exxon/Mobil, would you? I find that pretty incredible.

2. I suspect that gate swings both ways. And if you think that mild comment about getting your meds adjusted, a comment I have made before to my friends who thought nothing of it, was an "attack" all I can say is that we have a different idea about what constitutes an "attack." Telling someone to "eat shit bud" probably qualifies but I could let it pass because I can see how dedicated you are to your beliefs about global warming.

3. I am glad you accepted the apology. Likewise, I accept yours. And I will refrain from posting directly to you on this issue since your mind is made up about it. I have no problem with that but have no desire to beat my head over a brick wall either.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-25   18:55:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: FormerLurker (#96)

So are you a fan of Dick Cheney all of a sudden?

Oh yeah, I guess that must be it. Of course I have called him just about every kind of jackass and horse's ass you can think of but I guess that makes me a big fan of his.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-25   18:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: farmfriend (#99)

I am not the one making unfounded accusations against your character thread after thread after thread.

Sure your not. It's as I said, you bait people, then when they respond to what you post and call a spade a spade, you accuse them of personal attacks.

Where exactly have I tried to trash you?

The post I responded to, #82, is a glowing example.

As I recall you were the one trashing me in PMs to everyone.

A handful of people does not constitute "everyone", and I wasn't "trashing you", I was simply telling them of my observations. I find some of your past actions and comments "curious" at minimum.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   19:28:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: farmfriend (#98)

That's even funnier.

So how neutral is your friend who works for Rush Limburgh and headed the swiftboat attack team?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   19:29:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: farmfriend (#97)

I'm not playing any game. I take our freedoms including property and water rights very serious. AGW is just the latest issue used to take our rights from us.

I don't believe a word of what you say.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   19:30:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: farmfriend (#97)

As I recall you were the one whining about being personally attacked not me

Uh huh. Who's the one that brought up the phrase "personal attack" on this thread. Check post #82 and see who posted it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   19:33:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: James Deffenbach (#100)

You wouldn't seriously suggest that ALL of the scientists who say that global warming is a bunch of bs work for Exxon/Mobil, would you? I find that pretty incredible.

I'd say just about every one of them are either RNC backed, fossil fuel energy industry backed, or backed by governments who stand to lose if they can't burn all the oil, coal, and gas their little hearts desire, such as China and India.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   19:35:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: FormerLurker (#106)

I'd say just about every one of them are either RNC backed, fossil fuel energy industry backed, or backed by governments who stand to lose if they can't burn all the oil, coal, and gas their little hearts desire, such as China and India.

I still don't think it is too credible to believe that none of the scientists who argue against this stuff are all in bed with the oil companies while all of the ones who argue for it and are financed by Soros and fronted by people like Al Gore--and I think we all know what a crooked sob he is--are all salt of the earth, honest people, who would never, ever lie for money. No, not credible at all.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-25   19:50:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: James Deffenbach (#107)

ones who argue for it and are financed by Soros

You have not proved that ANY of them are financed by Soros. Your reference to Hansen was bogus. At most, Hansen was aided by a whistleblower assistance group, who had once obtained a grant from OSI, a Soros corporation.

It was rather dishonest of the authors whose articles you've read that accuse Hansen of being funded by Soros.

And THAT is what raises the red flag for me, where the level of dishonesty and deception on the side of the global warming critics is absolutely blatent.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   20:03:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: FormerLurker (#103)

So how neutral is your friend who works for Rush Limburgh and headed the swiftboat attack team?

Swiftboat attack team? What the heck does that have to do with global warming or cooling? This issue really should have nothing to do with politics. I have looked at the facts only and have concluded it is utter BS. Noble peace prizes are not usually given to people who are deserving but rather the opposite. Al Gore sure the heck wasn't deserving of such an award.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-25   20:31:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: FormerLurker (#108)

You have not proved that ANY of them are financed by Soros. Your reference to Hansen was bogus. At most, Hansen was aided by a whistleblower assistance group, who had once obtained a grant from OSI, a Soros corporation.

Not responsive whatsoever to my post. And I already told you I was tired of this, it is fruitless. You have your mind made up, to you global warming is real and not part of the natural warming and cooling cycle that the earth goes through regularly. I believe differently, that the earth goes through these cycles on a more or less regular basis. I suspect it will continue to do so after Hansen and Soros are dead. And that will be my last word to you on this issue.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-07-25   22:18:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: RickyJ (#109)

Swiftboat attack team? What the heck does that have to do with global warming or cooling? This issue really should have nothing to do with politics.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You ridicule people who'd rather be cautious about global warming, likening them to Al Gore and other such bullshit.

BUT, when a REAL RNC shillster who executes smear campaigns for the RNC and Rush Limburgh comes along and proclaims global warming to be "junk science" and other such things, you say you can't look at the person's background, you just need to listen to what he says.

In case you don't know who this individual that I'm referring to is, I'd suggest you stay out of other people's conversations. farmfriend knows who I'm talking about, she used him as a "source" for her "scientific info" at one time.

I have looked at the facts only and have concluded it is utter BS.

You believe some huckster who proclaimed there were only 2 sunspots this year, and that we are on our way to an ice age because of it, in fact you posted the article. Yet, you don't believe NASA scientists who have the most advanced equipment at their disposal, and who have been studying this for three decades or so.

You are truly a piece of work. I don't know if you are purposely being dumb about this, or if you are just acting like yourself.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   22:57:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: James Deffenbach (#110)

Not responsive whatsoever to my post

Huh? English please.

If you're trying to say I didn't respond, I responded consisely with the fact that what you posted wasn't true. I challenge you to prove what you claim.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   22:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: James Deffenbach (#110)

I believe differently, that the earth goes through these cycles on a more or less regular basis.

Of course there are cycles, but then there are other factors, such as man-made pollution. If you don't think it exists, then there's no hope educating you any further.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-25   23:00:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: FormerLurker (#94) (Edited)

I've never bozo'd anyone here, and don't intend to. I like to know what's being said about me, especially by one as determined as her to trash me here on the 4um.

No one is trying to trash you on this forum.

You continue to ignore all evidence that runaway global warming is not occurring and can't occur with the know greenhouse gasses on Earth. Why?

You also fail to see that those proclaiming global warming are making tons of money off of it. They have an strong motive to keep the myth alive.

Yes, air and water pollution are big issues and should be addressed, but there is no need to throw the fiction of runaway global warming into the picture to address it.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-07-25   23:55:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: RickyJ (#114)

You also fail to see that those proclaiming global warming are making tons of money off of it.

How is NASA making a "ton of money off of it"?

I really can't understand why some people can't comprehend that those who own and control the energy industry do NOT wish to lose that control, and will say or do ANYTHING to maintain it.

And that IS what it's all about, MONEY and CONTROL, and it is not NASA nor Dr. Hansen that is persuing that, it is those who own and control Exxon/Mobil, Standard Oil, British Petroleum, and so forth.

Why do you give a shit if the oil tychoons lose a few of their private jets or yachts? Would it be such a terrible thing to find alternative means of powering our vehicles, and heating our homes?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   13:56:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: FormerLurker (#115)

I really can't understand why some people can't comprehend that those who own and control the energy industry do NOT wish to lose that control, and will say or do ANYTHING to maintain it.

It's not us who don't comprehend what is going on. Go back and read that post I did about the foundations. You know the truth yet you have fallen for the magician’s slight of hand.

In an earlier post you seemed mystified that so many people you have agreed and posted with over the years take the opposite view on this issue. It's because they understand why AGW is being pushed and what the outcome will be. It is not about the environment, it never has been.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-26   14:08:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: FormerLurker (#115)

Would it be such a terrible thing to find alternative means of powering our vehicles, and heating our homes?

No it wouldn't but that's not what AGW is all about. Never has been. It's about control. You know that yet you still take the wrong side. I can't fathom how someone who knows so much about the game can miss one of the biggest pieces in the game.

Here I'll post it again:

So it isn't exactly by coincidence that it is those same colossal foundations that are making all those "charitable" donations to those icky Greens. The Environmental Grantmakers Association? That's Rockefeller. The Pew Charitable Trusts? That's Sunoco. W. Alton Jones? That's Citgo. The World Wildlife Fund? BP and Shell. You do see a pattern, don't you?

These are more than investors in energy, their assets include timber, mining, banking, food production… They aren't fools. They use the same simple and ancient recipe as did their European forbears by which to manufacture a predictable return: Kill the competition with regulations, create a shortage, and cash in. It's become so common there is even an excellent book out on the topic that I suggest you read, .

It's a simple process that has accelerated over the last five decades.

  1. Foist the necessary treaty law via (primarily American) NGOs at UN environmental agencies (largely funded by the US government).
  2. Get the implementing legislation through Congress.
  3. Use lawsuits by those same NGOs in federal courts to alter the meaning of the law.
  4. Overwhelm the agencies with graduates brainwashed by professors who subsist of government and foundation grants.
  5. Establish the regulatory power on the local level to control the decision- making with the cheapest politicians money can buy.
It's a vertically integrated racketeering system that extends over the entire planet. American investors in multinational operations are perfectly happy taking a hit on US operations destroying domestic production because their investments abroad get the business. They either convert domestic resource land to real estate or mothball it under tax exempt conservancies, Federal monuments, and such.

It's been done in industry after industry: timber, energy, mining, beef, fish, agriculture, real estate development, soon water… ALL taking advantage of economies of scale in environmental compliance and sometimes selective enforcement. Tax-exempt foundations buy the research "data" they need, fund a few ideological groups trained by the same professorate that lives off their grant money, and not a word need be breathed to the companies in which they are invested. Their pet executives wail about the regulations and scream how stupid and counterproductive they are, just like you do. It makes great theater. There is virtually no way of getting caught.

The above is the main purpose behind AGW. If you believe in AGW then help them in their agenda.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-26   14:16:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: farmfriend (#117)

It's about control. You know that yet you still take the wrong side.

Uh huh. So the oil tychoons are the good guys, and the NASA scientists are the bad guys. Oh, you say the oil tychoons are the ones TRYING to force people NOT to buy their product? Sorry, I'm not buying your sales pitch, no matter how much agiprop you post.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   15:48:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: farmfriend (#116)

Go back and read that post I did about the foundations.

Show me proof that people like Dr. Hansen will personally profit from curbing CO2 in the atmosphere. Show me proof that his team at NASA are cronies of the oil companies, where it is that team of scientists that are trying to inform people that we need to CEASE using petroleum and other fossil fuels.

You try to portray the oil and gas companies as some sort of benevolent group of kind folks, yet you try to associate those who OWN AND CONTROL those companies as the ones behind a movement to END our dependence on oil and other fossil fuels.

As I said, I'm not buying it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   15:53:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: farmfriend (#117)

So it isn't exactly by coincidence that it is those same colossal foundations that are making all those "charitable" donations to those icky Greens. The Environmental Grantmakers Association? That's Rockefeller. The Pew Charitable Trusts? That's Sunoco. W. Alton Jones? That's Citgo. The World Wildlife Fund? BP and Shell. You do see a pattern, don't you?

Even IF the above is true, what is wrong with them hedging their bets IN CASE there are some new technologies that could very well replace petroleum as the major energy source on the planet?

Do you have a problem with new technology? What is your issue with it?

It's been done in industry after industry: timber, energy, mining, beef, fish, agriculture, real estate development, soon water… ALL taking advantage of economies of scale in environmental compliance and sometimes selective enforcement. Tax-exempt foundations buy the research "data" they need, fund a few ideological groups trained by the same professorate that lives off their grant money, and not a word need be breathed to the companies in which they are invested. Their pet executives wail about the regulations and scream how stupid and counterproductive they are, just like you do. It makes great theater. There is virtually no way of getting caught.

So who wrote this piece of scaremongering garbage? It sounds like it was written by a very paranoid individual, or one who knows how to press the right buttons on people who are leery of the Establishment and believe anything and everything written that might fall into their world view.

What IS a fact is that the very people this piece tries to villy ARE the ones in control of the world's energy, and it is THEY that benefit from people like you and this author. Those people you portray as so evil their very association with global warming discredits ALL global warming facts and theories, are the SAME people you wish to give free reign to continue business as usual, and allow them to reap obscene profits at our expense, as well as handing them free US taxpayer money in the form of subsidies and grants.

Of course, it is not the fact that they DO control the world's energy that bothers you, it is the fact that they PRETEND to be sponsoring groups that would lead to their own demise.

This is why I question your motives, especially with some of the ridiculous comments you've made, such as when you thought the figures at the bottom of the sunspot chart were the actual total number of sunspots for the month, where in fact it was the AVERAGE DAILY sunspot number of that month.

Any high school, or even middle school kid would have known what those numbers meant.

Yet you claim to understand things that are well beyond high school level science, and villify those who have not only mastered PhD level Physics, but who have worked at NASA for decades and published a hundred or so scientific papers.

As I said earlier, I'm not buying what you're selling.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   16:11:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: FormerLurker (#119)

You try to portray the oil and gas companies as some sort of benevolent group of kind folks,

I have done no such thing.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-26   16:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: FormerLurker (#120)

There you go with the peronal attacks again.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-26   16:33:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: farmfriend (#122)

There you go with the peronal attacks again.

Stating facts is now considered a personal attack?

Here, let me help you out here. Go play out in the fucking highway and run in front of a few semis. There, now that might be called a personal attack, or maybe it could be good advice, you decide...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   18:19:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: farmfriend (#121)

I have done no such thing.

Then why do you side with them?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   18:20:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: FormerLurker (#124)

Then why do you side with them?

I don't but that won't stop you from twisting what I say into that now will it?


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-07-26   18:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: farmfriend (#125) (Edited)

I don't but that won't stop you from twisting what I say into that now will it?

You side with them by aiding and abetting their agenda, which is to silence NASA scientists who have published scientific papers in regards to global warming.

Their agenda is to continue to rob the people of the world for their daily essential needs such as transportation and heat, and to control the governments and people of this world by using the resources at their disposal, which includes just about anything.

That you are so vehemently against even TRYING to scale back oil consumption is an indication of whose side you are on.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-07-26   18:46:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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