4um: Obama, One Worlder Nutcase

Title: Obama, One Worlder Nutcase
Source: breitbart
URL Source: http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=138183
Published: Jul 24, 2008
Author: Obama (or his idiot speechwriters)
Post Date: 2008-07-24 20:30:29 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 1227
Comments: 120

Talking to a crowd in Germany, he said: "Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen -- a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world."

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

I still can't understand why that nitwit is campaigning over there: the votes are HERE.

“The best and first guarantor of our neutrality and our independent existence is the defensive will of the people…and the proverbial marksmanship of the Swiss shooter. Each soldier a good marksman! Each shot a hit!” Schweizerische Schutzenseitunt (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941

Like all good puppets he goes where he is told to go by his handler/puppeteer. And he will follow the orders of his master(s), just like McCain does. The only difference in them is their color--both of them are just establishment toadies.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

Because we have dimwits here in America that look to Europe as 'enlightened' and believe that we should follow their example of an all powerful nanny state.

Germany was a mob of socialists welcoming one of their own to the power table. We haven't fallen yet boys and girls, and damn if we will.

At least McCain knows his limitations and attributes - he is a sold-out senile husband of a rich and pretty heiress.

Facts are he will be Americas next President which means Israel will attack Iran within the month....

July 24 (Bloomberg) -- Israel's top military commander said he told U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney and Pentagon officials that both countries must be ready to use force to stop Iran's nuclear development program if diplomacy fails.

``We all realize, both the Americans and us, that all options must be prepared,'' Lieutenant-General Gabi Ashkenazi said in an interview from Washington on Israel Radio. ``There is no doubt that diplomacy must be given priority.''

Ashkenazi, Israel's military chief of staff, is in Washington all week for talks with the U.S. on strategic cooperation amid escalating tensions with Iran.

Iran test-fired a missile on July 9 that it said was capable of reaching Israel. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the next day that Iran will have to confront ``the power and capability of the United States'' if it attacks Israel.

Ashkenazi said he met with Cheney and held talks with top military officials at the Pentagon. He is scheduled today to meet with Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Better to wait until T.H.E. Messiah assumes the WH throne what with an overwhelming win in the November elections. Then there were will be all those Obamaphile freedom fighters and/or their children and nephews and nieces waiting in the wings and so eager to respond to their hero's call to "National Service", ie fighting for Israel...ahem, I mean, America...in the desert sands of Iran...that can be a their "cakewalk" tour of military action before they are "re-deployed" to hunting OBL in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan and to liberating the genocided Darfurians and starving Zimbabians.

Everyone on s2's ping list: come back, you've been missed. You know this is going nowhere good.

Market about to implode and in the McCain camp it would be seen as a positive....

I have argued against ridiculous Obama attacks that only distract from valid ones. I have voluntarily stayed away as such argument was pointless. Things such as his vote for telecom immunity, for example, are very valid.

Obama will likely win in November because Bush is a disaster, McCain is an inept campaigner reminiscent of Bob Dole, and the economy will largely drive the election against the party that has been in power. Had there been a Dem administration the past eight years, it would work the other way.

For the general ballot, the electorate should probably identify the incumbents and vote for anyone else. What the electorate will do is return the vast majority of incumbents to office. Having gained another vote of approval from the electorate, they will carry on with the competition of seeing who can deliver the most pork. The competition between the Dems and GOP is akin to the competition between the AFC and NFC. The victor is temporary champion, but regardless of which it is, the corporate NFL sitting above, wins.

For the American neocon and Israeli warriors who advocate bombing Iran, the little provocation in South Ossetia at the start of the Olympics, with American- and Israeli-trained and Israeli-assisted Georgian troops, may be seen as a harbinger of the likely Russian response to a larger scale adventure in Iran. Call it a Russian Monroe doctrine. The Russian response appears to have been wildly underestimated by the nutcases who decided to start the South Ossetia crap. Israel should not plan on Russia being a passive bystander if they bomb Iran which also borders Russia.

A good term for it. While I greatly understand why nations like Poland or Hungary would want NATO membership after their last 50 years of "relations" with Moscow; NATO has been much too brazen and in your face about it with Russia.

Over the last 500 years most of Russia's miseries have marched in from the west, so it's no wonder that German and French NATO troops cruising around Poland on training manuvers upsets them to no end.

On top of that you now have NATO control of Yugoslavia, which during the cold war was off limits to either side. The US in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus a desire to place troops in Iran. I'm not amazed that the Kremlin is starting to feel a bit boxed in.

The Russian response appears to have been wildly underestimated by the nutcases who decided to start the South Ossetia crap.

I think Russia has multiple goals with their current war effort. The first, and this is just my opinion, is that Georgia would make an good base for US bombers to strike Iran. Hence, they wish to deny that to the US. Second, I think they are rubbing the Kosovo mess and their double standards on the issue in NATO's face.

"If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.

Russia also has a long history of transporting and inflicting misery upon others.

Russia also sent two small fleets to the US during our Civil War. They were hiding from the French and Brits and showing support for Lincoln.

They share a recognized international border on what is called the Caspian Sea but which is recognized as a lake.

I was talking about land borders. I even went back and looked it up as I was pretty sure Russian and Iran didn't share a land border.

Despite the puzzlement and disappointment of Obama's actions and statements re Israel, even taken all together they do not trump the WMD/Fear/War mantra of McCain's intentions for a Bush III administration.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Ico, I'll send you $100 dollars to be forwarded to the Obama campaign if you can give me one solid reason we should become entangled in Afghanistan, Obama's war of choice.

JT, not only becoming more involved in Afghanistan but also Obama's stated intention to challenge ie. provoke Pakistan, which has a sizable Muslim population and which also has a sizable contingent of existing anti-American Pakistani military and intelligence officers, whose numbers would grow, if Prez Obama antagonized Pakistan. We cannot afford to alienate or take on Pakistan - that would be an absolute calamity for America.

Obama is also big on peace-keeping forces ( we know how easily that can morph into military action) to be sent to intervene in African disputes and conflicts. Together with Obama's stated policy on NATIONAL SERVICE future plans for young people, where do you think that might lead???

And I might remind everyone of Obama's speech at AIPAC and his promise to BoomBoom Netanyahu in a meeting they had together during Obama's recent visit to Israel that Israel's defense is Obama's major priority. After that meeting, Netanyahu gave his thumbs up endorsement of Obama. What does that tell you? Is there any difference between Obama and McCain re: their tied at the hip loyalty to Israel? I don't see a difference, do you, iconoclast? Obama even went so far as to say that Israel should get Jerusalem as its undivided capitol. What??? If Pres Obama tried to make that come to be, the whole ME would be inflamed with bloodshed.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

If a withdrawal timeline was the best way to inspire Iraqis to sort out their own bloody differences, does that not hold for Afghans? After all, we have been in Afghanistan longer than in Iraq and the question of civil war there is so academic it’s not even questioned. If diplomacy is the key to peace with Iran, why not try this tact with AQ and bin Laden? The truth be known these arguments have caused the Piles to retreat to the confines of their steril cocoon, where such reality is ignored rather than discussed.

Liberalism, even in small doses, causes massive mental conflictions that only copious amounts of alcohol can resolve.

At least he doesn't believe in the rapture, or that Jews continue to be God's chosen people, or that Israel's disposition matters one iota to us.

It's a mute point, JT. I don't believe Obama has any intention of getting entangled in another Iraq type debacle.

His goal, his intentions, and his strategy fall far short of another "dumb" war.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Obama has never mentioned an all out invasion of Pakistan, but to sit here while bin Ladin has a free pass for eternal sanctuary in an area beyond Pakistan's control is madness.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Huh? He has been completely clear re; Afghanistan. Iraqi combat troops to be moved there to seek and destroy bin Laden and AQ. The Collective refuses to discuss this, but he will continue Bush's psychotic War on Terror.

The only ones "not right in the head" were those that pre-emptively invaded Iraq, those that supported that invasion and those that continue to fail to recognize the difference in the two situations.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Madness is antagonizing Pakistan, a nation that maybe has not been the best ally 100% of the time, but which has not been too bad all things considered. Pakistan would make a very bad enemy if we provoke and meddle with the Paki military. If OBL is still alive, he's hiding and being protected by the Paki civilians in the mountainous region known as No Man's Land. Lots of luck Prez Obama in finding him there.

Besides which unless we get our self-defeating and very destructive pro-Israel obsession out of the shadows and changed, we are creating 100 new volunteers for AQ and OBL daily by allowing Israel to snuff the Palis.

Obama is not planning to change the master-servant relationship that Israel has with us. Obama got endorsed, 2 thumbs up by BoomBoom Netanyahu after their closed door meeting in Israel.

Obama is just as willing and eager to go to war on Izzy's behalf as McCain. Get a grip.

For all intents and purposes we cut and ran from Afghanistan as soon as GWB and his ilk convinced themselves we were prepared to establish our first imperial province in the ME.

If diplomacy is the key to peace with Iran, why not try this tact with AQ and bin Laden?

Iran is not now and never has been our enemy (they supported us against the Taliban which they detest perhaps more than we do). OTOH, bin Laden INVADED our nation, first time for a foreign invasion of our nation since when? 1812?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

True. Read on and you'll know what I do believe in .... a once proud, sane and courageous republic.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

And Obama did not vote for the Iraq invasion because he was not in Congress yet. We're really not sure how he would have voted if he had the opportunity. He talked the anti-Iraq War talk when he was a state politician, but that's easy when there's nothing on the line.

However, once Obama was elected to Capitol Hill as Senator his anti-Iraq war talk was betrayed by his actions. He voted yes for funding and continuing the Iraq occupation madness, yes? Or am I wrong?

He has been completely clear re; Afghanistan. Iraqi combat troops to be moved there to seek and destroy bin Laden ~~and AQ~~.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Obama tells Karzai he plans to continue terror war

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama pledged steadfast aid to Afghanistan in talks with its Western-backed leader Sunday and vowed to pursue the war on terror "with vigor" if he is elected, an Afghan official said.

On the second day of an international tour designed to burnish his foreign policy credentials, Obama and other U.S. senators held two hours of talks with President Hamid Karzai at his palace in the Afghan capital.

Obama has chided Karzai for not doing more to build confidence in the Afghan government, whose grip remains weak after the ouster of the Taliban in 2001.

U.S. Embassy spokesman Mark Stroh said the senators had discussed issues including the painstaking rebuilding of the country's government and economy, the security situation and corruption with Karzai.

The Afghan presidency said Obama's message was positive.

"Sen. Obama conveyed ... that he is committed to supporting Afghanistan and to continue the war against terrorism with vigor," said Humayun Hamidzada, Karzai's spokesman.

Both Democrats and Republicans "are friends of Afghanistan and no matter who wins the U.S. elections, Afghanistan will have a very strong partner in the United States," Hamidzada said.

Obama has made Afghanistan a centerpiece of his proposed strategy for dealing with terrorism threats.

The Illinois senator has said the war in Afghanistan, where Taliban and al-Qaida-linked militants are resurgent, deserves more troops and more attention as opposed to the conflict in Iraq.

While officially part of a congressional delegation on a fact-finding tour also expected to take him to Iraq, Obama traveled in Afghanistan amid the security accorded a likely Democratic nominee for president rather than a senator from Illinois.

Media access to Obama was limited, and his itinerary in the war zones was closely guarded. Traveling with him were Sens. Chuck Hagel, a Nebraska Republican, and Jack Reed, a Democrat from Rhode Island.

Obama made no public comment after the meeting with Karzai, which included a traditional lunch of mutton, chicken and rice washed down with a yogurt drink.

Earlier in the day, he praised U.S. troops during breakfast with soldiers at Camp Eggers, a heavily fortified military base in the city.

"To see young people like this who are doing such excellent work, with so much dedication ... it makes you feel good about the country," Obama said.

"I want to make sure that everybody back home understands how much pride people take in their work here and how much sacrifice people are making. It is outstanding," he said in footage filmed by the military and obtained by The Associated Press.

On Saturday, the delegation received briefings from U.S. commanders and a former Afghan warlord who is now the governor of Nangarhar, a province in eastern Afghanistan where militant attacks are spiraling.

Obama's first overseas tour since securing the Democratic nomination _ he is scheduled to travel to Europe through next week _ could be key to honing his foreign policy strategy with less than four months before the Nov. 4 election. His rival for the presidency, Republican Sen. John McCain, has criticized Obama for not spending more time in the region.

Obama advocates ending the U.S. combat role in Iraq by withdrawing troops at the rate of one to two brigades a month while increasing the military commitment to Afghanistan. Obama has proposed sending two more combat brigades _ about 7,000 troops _ to Afghanistan. McCain also is advocating sending more forces to the war-battered country.

U.S. military officials say the number of attacks in eastern Afghanistan, where most of the U.S. forces in the country operate, has increased by 40 percent so far this year compared to the same period last year.

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told The Associated Press on Saturday that after intense U.S. assaults there, al-Qaida may be considering shifting focus to its original home base in Afghanistan, where American casualties are recently running higher than in Iraq.

Obama also has expressed weariness with efforts by Afghanistan's neighbor, Pakistan, to go after militants in its territory. That frustration may strike a chord with Karzai, who has accused Pakistan's intelligence service of supporting the Taliban insurgency _ a claim that Pakistan denies.

But Obama also has chided Karzai and his government, saying it had "not gotten out of the bunker" and helped to organize the country or its political and security institutions.

If ANYONE knows the truth about 911, it's Fobama and mcCain. So, the 'War on Terra' continues regardless. ;-)

Pakistan is a desperately impoverished, ill educated, rag-tag excuse for nation. What do you expect them to do ... march across two continents and then march on top of the Atlantic to attack us? We have no intention invading them in any real sense of the word (we only just recently carried out bombings in the wasteland where bin Laden is holed up).

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Says the one who believes God cares more about Israel than any other place on the planet? Says the one who can quote Hal Lindsey with a straight face? Says the one who thinks the rapture is actually a biblical doctrine?

Give me a break mister. These are the ways that Americans are being sucker-punched in the gut by secular Israel. Now who would want that to happen?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

What does the Bible actually say about all that? And when have I ever said anything about the 'rapture' other than whenever He comes, I'm going with Him?

Do you even know anything on the subject or do you just parrot other bizarros that hate Jews and Israel??

No, genius, the Pakis won't travel across 2 continents and an ocean to fight us here. If we mess with the Pakis, they'll drag us into an increasingly dragged out conflict there. First it will be Special Forces then it will be the Marines and then we've got ourselves into a guerilla warfare situation with Paki civilians nailing our soldiers left and right.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

Oh my, buc, I think we've got ourselves a Christian Zionist in our midst. Who knew but you? I must have been blind.

Yo, rotara, He has already come - it was about 2000 years ago. Sorry you missed Him.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

The Bible does not lend itself well to Lindsey's tortured interpretations, and if you can extract that out of it, you're twisting it around as well as anyone is. The fact is that this doctrine was injected into the Protestant church for the benefit of the British empire.

And one more thing: putting America and its own land first in my allegiance in no way has anything to do with hating Jews and Israel. Obviously things our out of proportion here with our pro-Israel warring in the Mideast. Until Israel means no more than the Falkland islands to Americans, this will go on, guaranteed.

That it goes on is going to be the destruction of America. American Jews are welcome to join me in putting America first. We know of many who do. The fact is that without bastardized interpretations of the bible haunting their every thought, most American Christians would be content to protect America first and treat Israel like any other country. That's impossible as long as they believe in mistaken doctrines.

You that claim to be (maybe) and yet hate Israel and Jews will have much to answer for, as much or more than the monsters in America and Israel that do their master, the anti-Christ's, bidding.

Also, never let any other human, past or present, come between you and your God.

Saying you're America first, but believing Israel is hallowed ground and that you believe in a final conflict over Israel that requires you to participate are incompatible.

Every subsequent administration will not be a carbon copy of GWB's (at least not if McInsane is defeated).

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

I know you're right, but this is one of the top three issues of our time. Americans have to recognize that America is their promised land, not somewhere else. It was promised to them by their forefathers and the men and women who founded this country. I think God would want them to appreciate that worldly gift above most others.

I'd be interested in some articles post-AIPAC and post-Telecom-immunity that would support that argument.

It does not tell me to fight for Israel, or that my town is less hallowed than Palestine today.

I'm not advocating that our nation defy the Constitution for Israel or anyone else.

However, it appears that most here on Freedom4um that have issues attacking and destroying sovereign nations don't give Israel the same turn.

One could say they hardly blame Israelis/Hebrews/Jews for saying "never again" as this ugly anti-Christ spirit gains more strength. Yet again.

That is their right, but it is not our concern, not at all. However, they are demanding that it be made our concern. On what basis can they make this claim? None. Absolutely none at all.

Furthermore, it would not be Biblical to suggest that the Islamic people are in any way associated with the anti-Christ, and it would be an ideal gem of propaganda for the Israelis to succeed in twisting the Bible around to mean that to American Christians.

I am starting to hear this foul smelling meme from other sources, and it must not be allowed to pass unnoticed. That way leads to madness. The real threat to Americans comes from excessive government power and corruption, for that is what has brought us lawlessness and chaos. The threats Israel faces are not the same ones we face, and mixing the two up was their first goal.

If Americans acting in a private capacity want to or feel obligated to help Israel, more power to them.

It's UNConstitutional for our Government to be handing out foreign aid or entering entangling alliances.

Wow, buckeye, you hit a raw nerve - you got to catch this 'net spectacle - it's like something out of the Exorcist movie - head revolving on a stick, eyes blazing, mouth spitting out these words:

"You that claim to be (maybe) and yet hate Israel and Jews will have much to answer for, as much or more than the monsters in America and Israel that do their master, the anti-Christ's, bidding."

I'm all scared now, buck. Rotara is a definite shape-changer, I swear. I thought he only hated "The New World Order" and "The Globalists" but he actually hates anyone who dares criticize Precious Israhell!!!! Critics of Israel - such as ourselves yesiree, that's you and me, dear buck - we are "monsters" and we do the "bidding of the anti-Christ." Eeeeeeeek, powerful judgment from Mr. Perfect Christozionazi, also known as Rotara. I'm shocked and saddened beyond words.

Rotara first revealed to me earlier today - between his signature :'s and )'s - that he "did not like me very much" and then in a few short hours those expressed feelings escalated to calling me ( and you) a Monster and Agent of the anti-Christ. I was wondering why Rotara tails my posts around like a heat-seeking missile - now the truth is out - Rotara doesn't like the fact that I use credible sources to support my criticisms of Israel examples: Professors Mearsheimer and Walt, noted scholars, and verbatim press reports from Haaretz and YnetNews, which are Israeli newspapers, and also the insightful observations from Philip Weiss's news blog, who just happens to be a very articulate JEWISH journalist who is ashamed of Israel's thuggish actions and he's also aghast at the Zionazi chickenhawks and foreign policy influence peddlers posing as American gov't policy advisers and lobbyists who get the USA to waste US treasure and blood fighting Israel's battles. Just because I don't quote gobblygook drive-in theatre dial a pastor crap from Hal Lindsey crackerjack sources, Rotara has a hissy fit and reveals himself completely as the 1-dimensional shallow christozionutter he always has been.

And you are THE WORST NAZI on this site and among the worst I've ever encountered anywhere.

You are simply a disgusting individual, in spite of all the other things you DO get right.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

Bravo, well said. You're on a roll today, buck. You nicely separated the wheat from the chafe and clarified the real issues at hand as opposed to the superficial ones.

You can find scrapper2 defending American Jews on this site if you look. It may be that your views differ on how to best not be a Nazi.

I've read PLENTY from both of you and when it comes to Israel/Jews/Hebrews you two go WAY past the point of America first.

I think in the meantime - as the story goes - we're supposed to live our mortal lives as best we can and when we die we leave our mortal shells behind on earth and our souls join the Heavenly Father and His Son and the Holy Ghost in Heaven.

But you and Rotara are free to just hang around here waiting for Him to come back - yep, that sounds like a sound plan. Just keep watching what happens with Israel in all the ME conflicts it causes, and eventually there should be a signal when His flight is earth bound.

Aside from the rapture nonsense, here's how it works: Zionism and Manifest Destiny are ideologically linked, and this makes it difficult for Christians who believe in Manifest Destiny not to accept Israel's claims to Palestine. It's a form of cognitive dissonance.

There's an easy way out of this dilemma. The liberal, self-hating approach is to reject both. Unfortunately, there is the other, more troublesome route of attaching a Christian identity to the American people. This is problematic, as well, because it welds race and religion where they do not belong. On the other hand, we can simply accept that America is a wonderful place, it was founded by freedom-loving people, and it was given to us by immigration or birth, and that makes it "ours."

Freedom unites very well. Ron Paul lectured the evangelicals, whose coreligionists had barred him from the Values Voter Debate, at the Revolution March saying "keep your religion to yourself." Indeed. I think he might have also been directing his vitriol at some of the Moral Majority types who were there, as well.

a. Oh really quoting from Professors Mearsheimer and Walt and posting news articles from Israeli newspaper and linking to criticisms made by Jewish journalists is going way past America First. Riggggght. No what pisses you off, Rotara, is that by supporting our criticisms of Israel by presenting credible links and connecting the dots on how IsraelFirsters put America Last, that's what is real annoying to you. Because you would much prefer to lull everyone to sleep with your cryptic comments about "The Globalists" and "The New World Order". You don't want to read or have anyone else read precise articulate well supported arguments about what it is that poses the greatest threat to our fair nation today. You don't want the secret out about wasted US blood and treasure - who this is being done for.

b. Really? And why are you qualified to make this judgment? You are pathetic, Rotara. You are a stereotypical Christian Zionist, AmericaLaster. You still do not have a clue that Israelis despise you and your ilk, but you'd happily send other people's kids, even your own kids, to fight and die for Israel in useless foreign wars. You are pathetic AND selfish - because in your mind, ME wars and conflagration brings Him closer to you, right?

When one has no defense for one's unsupportable position, there's always ye old Hitler anti-semite card. It always magically appears thusly from the Speech Fascist Usual Suspects as well as from their despised Christonutter groupies.

Coming from the likes of a smug dissembling christonutter shape shifting IsraelFirster Fascist like yourself, I see I'm hitting the mark, even going past the mark, in connecting the dots of our disastrous foreign policy for America Lovers at 4um and lurkers everywhere.

Your words are inspiring. I will work harder to reveal truth. I will research deeper. I will look at more sources, international news sources perhaps. Yes, maybe I will even learn Hebrew so I can translate blogs from "abroad". You are such a motivator, Rotara. Again, thank you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

What Rotara represents is indeed well-meaning. These are good people whose net effect on our foreign policy has been negative — not because they meant harm, but because their focus was divided between their own country's future and another people's fate. America's people need this kind of selfless care and devotion now, before it's too late.

America is no longer able to be the savior of the entire world, and history is showing us that we never should have believed that we could be in the first place.

Thank you, buckeye, for pointing this out. I have said several times that for example Philip Weiss is one of my intellectual heroes, that he is a very courageous man for speaking truths about Israel and about some of the AmericaLasters in his religious group. My criticisms are always about Israel the nation, when its actions earn criticism and about IsraelFirsters who dissemble and put America last. IsraelFirsters are Jewish and gentile alike. I do not single out IsraelFirster Jews for criticism. I have never ever made a broad brush stroke criticism of Jews in general or American Jews in particular because of their faith. I am always very careful and focused in pin-pointing my criticism and the criticism always relates to politics.

Pakistan's pro-America attitude in government officials is not necessarily shared by the general Paki public or by the intel/military officers. If we start meddling in Pakistan, our pro-American sock puppets in office there will be put between a rock and a hard spot. Do you want a civil war or a military coup to occur in Pakistan because we start making the politicians look weak to the Paki rabbling crowds, while we're "huntin'" for the mythical OBL? And if Pakistan falls into turmoil, then what? We wash our hands and walk away and look for OBL somewhere else? Give me a break. Unless we change our foreign policy in the ME, there'll be OBL's growing everywhere. And Obama has ZERO interest in changing our foreign policy in the ME. Why do you think Bibi likes Obama? Sheesh. Catch a clue.

I know that is good advice--at least the part about not arguing about religion is. Discuss is a different thing. I can discuss it but I never argue about religion.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

Rotara insulted scrapper2 and buckeye and scrapper2 unleashed one mean can of whoop-ass.

Oh brother, religious warfare. Well, I'll add my $0.025 here, including sales tax.

Rabbi Hillel said it best in the First Century. "The sum of the Torah is this: Do not do to your neighbor that which you find repugnant yourself."

"A leader, for a change." - Jimmy Carter, 1976 campaign slogan. Sound familiar? Here it comes again!

Not really at all, no. I don't apologize for being a Bible believing Christian that puts America first and am not ashamed for not wanting any sovereign nation destroyed and all it's people dispersed or destroyed.

"Religious warfare" was not the issue at all. Rotara and I are both Christians. He's of the Protestant right wing variety and I'm a Catholic.

The issue is about Rotara conflating his love of Israel and his love of End Times dogma with what he falsely thinks is the definition of an America Firster. Go figure.

And because I have linked IsraelFirsters - both Jewish Zios and Christozios like himself - to the greatest threat America faces today, Rotara had a hissy fit. He thinks criticizing Israel - the nation - or criticizing IsraelFirsters who use American blood and treasure for Israel's benefit are Nazis, Hitlerites.

It was all about foreign policy and identifying :the enemy" - religious discussion was when Cynicom side-tracked the matter at hand.

Catholics are quite an interesting sort. Unfortunately, most of them don't know their own religion well enough to be able to deal with it.

Time and time again I've had to explain what "ex cathedra" means and that just because the Pope issues an opinion, it doesn't mean everyone has to jump.

It gets even more fun with Protestants, most of whom don't even know why they are what they are. What precisely are they protesting again? Do they even know where they got their religion from?

But, Catholics will do one thing very well. Criticize everyone equally. Might be because a lot of them are "traditional" Irish Catholics who see their priests but five times in their existence. Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Last Rites, and Funeral.

"A leader, for a change." - Jimmy Carter, 1976 campaign slogan. Sound familiar? Here it comes again!

You have gone and got lost in the tall grass again. Ugly anti-Christ, bringing down the 10 Commandments, never again but genociding Palestinians is okay, and then there's the crescendo barn burning non-sequiter statement:

"it appears that most here on Freedom4um that have issues attacking and destroying sovereign nations don't give Israel the same turn."

Regarding not violating the constitution - hello, ever heard about separation of state and religion? Why are we supporting a theocractic thug-state that is genociding Palestinian Muslims - true semites, fyi, not Ashkanazi converts - so a racially "pure" Jewish state can expand over the Palis backs? Think about it. And that example is just for constitutional violation starters.

But once again, Rotara and I had our differences primarily about US foreign policy, not religion. Religion was a side issue because his End Times dogma - it's not even proper religion - puhlease- anyways his dogma and Israelilove was tied up with foreign policy, not mine. I keep my religion where it should be - in my heart.

That is precisely where it belongs as, at its heart, it is a personal rather than a group activity.

The problem with a lot of the 60s children and their offspring is that none of them understand where their priorities should be. They trample the flag not understanding what it stands for. The flag stands for the ideals of America and the Constitution, not the current fool inhabiting the White House.

If only more people took the time to understand the idea of America and the Constitution, there would be a lot fewer twinks on the streets to deal with.

"A leader, for a change." - Jimmy Carter, 1976 campaign slogan. Sound familiar? Here it comes again!

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

James and iconoclast, did you actually read and understand what Rotara's unique definition of "America first" involves before you signed up with the plan?

Anyone can call label himself any thing, but the self-described label is meaningless unless you have a frame of reference.

I would wager that everyone who posts on this site - a political discussion forum - loves America. Absolutely. Why else would posters display such passion and invest so much time and energy to discuss how different political events here and abroad affect our nation? We all love America, even when we criticize our government.

But to describe oneself as America First - I use upper case for First unlike Rotara who uses lower case for first - it really means that one puts America FIRST, that there is no other nation on this planet that can share your loyalty or patriotism. America First means undivided and single nation-love.

I am an America Firster. I have zero split national loyalty or patriotism. America comes First. Thusly, I would never ever - no never - advocate American blood and treasure being used for the defense and security for any other nation but America.

But for Rotara, it would appear that his love, loyalty, patriotism for America is divided with his affection for a foreign nation, that nation being, Israel.

Rotara seems to believe that America is inextricably tied to Israel at the hip through Biblical prophecy or at least Rotara's reading of the Bible. Rotara conflates literal Biblical scripture reading of a mythical Israel with what America's foreign policy should be - putting America's and only America's interests first. In Rotara's view America and Israel are not separate nation-states. Rotara sees America as sharing a destiny with Israel. I do not share that view. That shared Biblical destiny view of Rotara's is antithical to what I feel defines being an America Firster. And keep in mind that even when it is not in America's best interests, Rotara believes that we cannot cut our foreign entanglements with Israel. Rotara has intimated that even if Israel's interests are not shared by America, even if Israel's needs are detrimental/at odds with America's needs, he sees the 2 nations as inextricably united come hell or high water.

So James and iconoclast, now that you know the context, the frame of reference of Rotara's unique definition of America first, do you still count yourselves as sharing and supporting Rotara's definition, wherein your loyalties are divided between 2 nations, not just associated with America; that you two like Rotara call yourselves America first believers, the spelling of first being a weak and wobbly lower case "first"?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

So out of the blue with no frame of reference you announced on a thread that you were America first. Nice.

Okeedokee...I guess people can describe themselves with whatever labels they want. But in your case if you want to be honestly viewed as a paleo-con, one sticky-icky political position you need to lose is being pro-universal health care, for example, because paleo-cons believe in limited government intrusions in people's lives and small government bureaucracies and socialized medicine is the opposite. So call yourself whatever, I don't care.