See other (s)Elections Articles
Title: Obama says he opposes slavery reparations, apology
Source:
[None]
URL Source: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92A5GCG0&show_article=1
Published: Aug 2, 2008
Author: Chris Wills
Post Date: 2008-08-02 10:15:47 by christine
Keywords: None
Views: 617
Comments: 54
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama opposes offering reparations to the descendants of slaves, putting him at odds with some black groups and leaders. The man with a serious chance to become the nation's first black president argues that government should instead combat the legacy of slavery by improving schools, health care and the economy for all. "I have said in the past—and I'll repeat again—that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed," the Illinois Democrat said recently. Some two dozen members of Congress are co-sponsors of legislation to create a commission that would study reparations—that is, payments and programs to make up for the damage done by slavery. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People supports the legislation, too. Cities around the country, including Obama's home of Chicago, have endorsed the idea, and so has a major union, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Obama has worked to be seen as someone who will bring people together, not divide them into various interest groups with checklists of demands. Supporting reparations could undermine that image and make him appear to be pandering to black voters. "Let's not be naive. Sen. Obama is running for president of the United States, and so he is in a constant battle to save his political life," said Kibibi Tyehimba, co-chair of the National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America. "In light of the demographics of this country, I don't think it's realistic to expect him to do anything other than what he's done." But this is not a position Obama adopted just for the presidential campaign. He voiced the same concerns about reparations during his successful run for the Senate in 2004. There's enough flexibility in the term "reparations" that Obama can oppose them and still have plenty of common ground with supporters. The NAACP says reparations could take the form of government programs to help struggling people of all races. Efforts to improve schools in the inner city could also aid students in the mountains of West Virginia, said Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP's Washington bureau. "The solution could be broad and sweeping," Shelton said. The National Urban League—a group Obama is to address Saturday—avoids the word "reparations" as too vague and highly charged. But the group advocates government action to close the gaps between white America and black America. Urban League President Marc Morial said he expects his members to press Obama on how he intends to close those gaps and what action he would take in the first 100 days of his presidency. "What steps should we take as a nation to alleviate the effects of racial exclusion and racial discrimination?" Morial asked. The House voted this week to apologize for slavery. The resolution, which was approved on a voice vote, does not mention reparations, but past opponents have argued that an apology would increase pressure for concrete action. Obama says an apology would be appropriate but not particularly helpful in improving the lives of black Americans. Reparations could also be a distraction, he said. In a 2004 questionnaire, he told the NAACP, "I fear that reparations would be an excuse for some to say, 'We've paid our debt,' and to avoid the much harder work." Taking questions Sunday at a conference of minority journalists, Obama said he would be willing to talk to American Indian leaders about an apology for the nation's treatment of their people. Pressed for his position on apologizing to blacks or offering reparations, Obama said he was more interested in taking action to help people struggling to get by. Because many of them are minorities, he said, that would help the same people who would stand to benefit from reparations. "If we have a program, for example, of universal health care, that will disproportionately affect people of color, because they're disproportionately uninsured," Obama said. "If we've got an agenda that says every child in America should get—should be able to go to college, regardless of income, that will disproportionately affect people of color, because it's oftentimes our children who can't afford to go to college." One reparations advocate, Vernellia Randall, a law professor at the University of Dayton, bluntly responded: "I think he's dead wrong." She said aid to the poor in general won't close the gaps—poor blacks would still trail poor whites, and middle-class blacks would still lag behind middle-class whites. Instead, assistance must be aimed directly at the people facing the after-effects of slavery and Jim Crow laws, she said. "People say he can't run and get elected if he says those kinds of things," Randall said. "I'm like, well does that mean we're really not ready for a black president?"
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: christine (#0)
I actually can't help but like this guy. That's why I DO NOT want him to be President. I was relieved when Hillary was winning because of this. He doesn't deserve to be hated for anything he has actually done to date in his life, as far as I can tell. He is hated because of what people fear he might do. So I say give the White House to McThuselah and then everyone REALLY WILL see their worst fears (or most "wargasmic" desires, in the case of the Judeocons) realized.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
"What steps should we take as a nation to alleviate the effects of racial exclusion and racial discrimination?" Morial asked So............who they gonna vote for? ROTF..........same ol story, different party!
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
I lost ancestors in the Civil War who fought in the Union Army. I'm also descended from slaves. Debt is paid, jerk. Go away.
"A leader, for a change." - Jimmy Carter, 1976 campaign slogan. Sound familiar? Here it comes again!
Show me de money! In a 2004 questionnaire, he told the NAACP, "I fear that reparations would be an excuse for some to say, 'We've paid our debt,' and to avoid the much harder work." Let's mosey on down de hill, crawl under the fence, and screw all de white bitches.
"To do the useful thing, to say the courageous thing, to contemplate the beautiful thing: that is enough for one man's life." - T. S. Eliot
Affirmative action and head-start programs are slavery reparations in everything but name. Their liberal supporters are just more nuanced and subtle than reparations race-baiters like Sharpton and Jackson.
He doesn't deserve to be hated for anything he has actually done to date in his life, as far as I can tell. He is hated because of what people fear he might do. So I say give the White House to McThuselah and then everyone REALLY WILL see their worst fears (or most "wargasmic" desires, in the case of the Judeocons) realized. I think you're trying to find something deep and wonderful in a blank slate. What's to like about Obama? There's lots to dislike about McCain, I'll agree with you there, but otoh what little Obama has shown thusfar imo is not very likeable. The world tour made me want to kick the teevee screen. His game playing with the "lost and found" note at the Wailing Wall and his devotional visit with yarmulke on his head to the Holocaust Museum and meeting with BoomBoom Netanyahu ( who btw gave the thumbs up re: Obama after their tete-a-tete about eeevil Iran) was enough to make me gag. His current bill to up the ante to the UN Third World thugocracies using our tax $ as our economy nose-dives is nothing short of ludicrous. His stupid advice to fill tires more as an answer to rising fuel prices is beyond laughable. His flip flopping about off shore oil drilling is a preview of what will come to be re: his position on reparations. The guy is an empty suit and a phony. I would not trust him as far as I could throw him. Read his book called "Dreams of My Father" - he says he wished he could get rid of the white blood coursing through his body. What does that tell you? He is so conflicted about his own personal situation - how could he possibly be an unconflicted head of state when the question of reparations will come and surely it will if Conyers has any say in the matter. Reparations would tear this nation apart - I have no doubt about it. There is alot of resentment as it is about affirmative action - reparations would be the final blow and cause racial hatred and back biting for years to come. Here's who your "likeable" Barry hangs with:
I didn't say I was going to vote for him. I'm in "Red State" Texas, so I'll vote Libertarian as always. I just said I couldn't summon up any hatred for him. I couldn't care less who he "hangs with." Couldn't be any worse than some of McInsane's associates. "Hanging with" Lieberman is enough for me to write him off forever. I see classism as the key issue in this era and not racism. Barack Obama is from a higher class than I am or ever will be. So is McCain. Obama's stated policies on the economy are more favorable to the middle class than are McCain's. I can't trust either one of them to follow through, but if Obama actually is able to get enacted the tax policies which are in his platform, I will come out ahead compared to what McPain is proposing. If my vote were for sale, Obama has just made me a better offer than McStrangelove did. A country without a middle class, which is where we're headed, is going to be so doomed that racism will be one of the least of our problems. BTW, I wish I could get rid of my English blood and be fully German. We can all wish a lot of things, to pass the time of day, but it doesn't change who we are.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
I can't trust either one of them to follow through, but if Obama actually is able to get enacted the tax policies which are in his platform, I will come out ahead compared to what McPain is proposing. If my vote were for sale, Obama has just made me a better offer than McStrangelove did. I think you are confused about which candidate would do more damage to the middle class. Obama is considering raising the capital gains class from 15% to 28%. Middle class taxpayers typically have their $ tied to owning homes in nice middle class neighborhoods, pension plans that are invested in a variety of stocks, commodities, etc - so under Obama's plan, profits from increased values and sales of any of the aforementioned would be subject to almost double the tax rate that exists now. Obama also does not want to allow the death tax to sunset, so middle class people who want to give their children a leg up in life since affirmative action gov't programs put them at a disadvantage, will have their legacies taxed and sent to the US Treasury. Middle class under Obama's plan will have saved their legacy for FedGov's use not for their children/grandchildren's use. Obama has waffled on what his definition of "rich" is - at first it was supposed to be those eeevil Marie Antoinette-Sun King people earning lotsa $. Then Obama began spouting salary figures defining "the rich" to be $150,000. Depending on what state you live in, a married couple earning $150,000 or more are mainstream, not "the rich" - a firefighter married to a teacher would qualify as "rich" in many states under Obama's grand plan. Furthermore, with regards to Obama's SS plan - raising the 6% payroll tax level to $250,000 is not exactly striking out at "the rich." At that level, it's small fry - small business owners, doctors, lawyers. All it means is that the small business owners professional partnerships will hire more part-timers with no benefits. As we have already seen - "the rich" - the real ones know how to hide their $ abroad - Halliburton took its corporate head office to Dubai to diminish its US corporate tax burden. Count on this happening more frequently if Obama wins the Oval Office and the Dimwits win a majority in the House - off shore flight of capital. As it is "the rich" - the top 1% of US taxpayers support 60% of Fedgov's programs - do you honestly believe they'll allow their $ to be seized to a greater degree than now only to support the growing of a useless gov't bureaucracy and an expansion of a dependent underclass? I don't think so. The rich didn't get that way being stoooopid with their finances. Until and if ever Obama starts talking about CUTS TO GOVERNMENT SPENDING, he's not giving any credible solutions to what ails our nation's economy. The likes of Obama only will exacerbate the problems.
I don't pay much attention to McCain, has he promised any kind of 'chicken in every pot' programs? What worries me about Obama is that he plans to pander to both the MIC and an LBJ style great society at the same time. We've seen what damage has been done by the back and forth funding used up until now. To fund both at the same time is unsupportable at any tax rate. Well, you could get the tax rate high enough, but then the US would look like late 1980's Russia. To club America with taxation and inflation at the same time will break the country.
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me. "If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.
Our own .gov wouldn't do that to our own Middle Class all in the name of Globalization, would they? LOL ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Stupid cs. How long should white people be expected to keep "paying a debt" that no white has owed in half a dozen generations (or more)? And it is also true that not all that many white people owned any slaves and that some blacks owned slaves. But they never want to talk about that. I think the best thing anyone can do when Jesse, Al or any of the rest of the poverty pimps start agitating for reparations is to tell them to piss up a rope.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He doesn't deserve to be hated for anything he has actually done to date in his life, as far as I can tell. He is hated because of what people fear he might do. So I say give the White House to McThuselah and then everyone REALLY WILL see their worst fears (or most "wargasmic" desires, in the case of the Judeocons) realized. You're slipping, Sam. Don't you know that if Obummer were actually worth a d@mn that he would have never made it to the nomination of the Rockedem half of the Party?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. What worries me about Obama is that he plans to pander to both the MIC and an LBJ style great society at the same time. To club America with taxation and inflation at the same time will break the country. McCain has not promised chickens for every pot so far or at least that I've heard. McCain is a leftie socially, but I don't think he's an FDR/LBJ New Deal leftie. Obama, otoh, is so way left he makes Hillary Clinton look centrist by comparison. I very much share your well articulated concerns about Messiah Obama.
Sam hasn't fooled anyone. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I can tell you and I do not have the same definition of "middle class." From where I live, you are describing the "wealthy." I live in a rural area and anyone with a six-figure income is very, very well off to me. Hardly ANYONE has a pension plan. Lots have bass boats, F-150s and SUVs. These remain parked the majority of the time these days. Many, perhaps the majority, have negative net worths. I own two homes free and clear, but they weren't in a "bubble" and are not equal to one of your so-called "nice" homes. There are more than just "two Americas," to paraphrase John Edwards. There are dozens of them and it's why I say, almost every chance I get, that Lincoln was BY FAR the worst president in our history, because he prevented these dozens of new countries from flourishing, each with its own set of policies. So if I am not even in the middle class, I even more can say that if my vote were for sale, I'd have to give it to the guy so many on this site seem to love to hate.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
I don't know how it can be done, but I'd LOVE to see the country broken up into a dozen new ones. Lincoln will turn over in his grave. Good.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
So you would sell your vote to a marxist establishment tool for your own self interest. STUNNING I TELL YA! ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I don't know how it can be done, but I'd LOVE to see the country broken up into a dozen new ones. Lincoln will turn over in his grave. Good. Let me guess, you're going to settle in Mississippi? ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
But does he support additional Holocaust reparations, including judgments against the insurance industry and the American people for not stopping the Holocaust earlier?
LOL, you're as bad about the Jews as neocons are about the mohammedans. There's a ditch on both sides and almost everyone seems to be in one. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I'm already settled and the state in which I live already has experience as a sovereign nation.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
I'm already settled and the state in which I live already has experience as a sovereign nation. You can address me directly if you dare. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
You need to read the entire thread. Up near the top I already said I was voting Libertarian. I said "if" I were selling my vote. I replied to "All" by accident. Sorry to "All" but "Rotara."
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
From where I live, you are describing the "wealthy." Middle class by my definition, wealthy by your definition - who cares - none of the people who have more than you have owe you anything. Why do you believe you are entitled to more of the income earned by those who are in an economic class above you? What do you bring to the pot? The middle class and the wealthy pay way more than their share to keep Fedgov afloat. The worker bees are maxed out in income taxes. Re-distribution of wealth, punishing hard work and success did not benefit the Soviet Union and it will not benefit America.
Concentration of wealth through bailout of Wall Street bankers is not going to work either. I owed them nothing either, but look who "won" in D.C. the other day.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Libertarians would not muse aloud about increasing taxes. Ron Paul would never dream about arguing the benefits of higher taxes, even in a theoretical way. You may believe you are Libertarian but it sure doesn't seem that way to others reading this thread.
I know what you're saying. And not saying. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Would he sign this type of legislation? What ever we've done, will never be enough. We will always be asked to do more. I think Obama would gladly sign this kind of legislation.
I owed them nothing either, but look who "won" in D.C. the other day. No offense but it doesn't sound like you have much to worry about your modest income tax contributions being what is used to bail out Wall Street bankers. Fyi, the Dems were just as much on board with the bail-out as the Gopers.
You need to come to grips with the stage of the game, the lack of rules and the fact that there's nothing short of revolution (again) for us to regain what was lost. When you get that, then the next step is more clear. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I wish it were modest. Then I wouldn't have had to pay the AMT last year. If the GOPigs had wanted to stop this, they could have. Paulson ORDERED Bush to reverse his stance on this and he complied. For months before that, the Chimp was going bananas threatening to veto it.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Partisan is partisan, but D is committed Socialist. R was turned into that as well. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Of course Obama will support the Holocaust Reparations Bill just as he will ultimately support Slavery Reparations. He's a consummate flip flopper. His actions thus far and the people he supports - slavery reparations advocates - would suggest he's currently playing his white Dem supporters for the gullible stooges they are.
Come on, by now surely you know that there's only one Party with two faces; one goal. The Dildos and the Reptiles have America completely played out.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I'm confused. First you're talking about ditches. Next you're talking about lawlessness. Then you're talking about revolution. I can't keep up with you. Between Hal Lindsey and the rapture, I'm pretty much out of your cultural milieu.
You and I don't have much in common, I've concluded. Take care and be well. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Likewise.
Me, too.
I didn't know about those pro-reparations people he knows. Martin seems to focus on Chicago City Council, Alderwoman Dorothy Tillman. He also mentions Rep. John Conyers, Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. We know that on that committee, Dennis Kucinich has called for reparations.
And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot
Candy Corn! And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot
Comments (42 - 54) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#2. To: christine (#0)
Urban League President Marc Morial said he expects his members to press Obama on how he intends to close those gaps and what action he would take in the first 100 days of his presidency.
#3. To: christine (#0)
"I fear that reparations would be an excuse for some to say, 'We've paid our debt,' and to avoid the much harder work."
#4. To: christine (#0)
putting him at odds with some black groups and leaders
#5. To: christine (#0)
#6. To: Sam Houston (#1)
I actually can't help but like this guy. That's why I DO NOT want him to be President. I was relieved when Hillary was winning because of this.
#7. To: scrapper2 (#6)
#8. To: Sam Houston (#7)
Obama's stated policies on the economy are more favorable to the middle class than are McCain's.
#9. To: scrapper2 (#8)
I think you are confused about which candidate would do more damage to the middle class.
#10. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#9)
To club America with taxation and inflation at the same time will break the country.
#11. To: christine (#0)
In a 2004 questionnaire, he told the NAACP, "I fear that reparations would be an excuse for some to say, 'We've paid our debt,' and to avoid the much harder work."
Lord Acton
#12. To: Sam Houston (#1)
I actually can't help but like this guy. That's why I DO NOT want him to be President. I was relieved when Hillary was winning because of this.
Lord Acton
#13. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#9)
I don't pay much attention to McCain, has he promised any kind of 'chicken in every pot' programs?
#14. To: James Deffenbach, Sam Houston (#12)
You're slipping, Sam. Don't you know that if Obummer were actually worth a d@mn that he would have never made it to the nomination of the Rockedem half of the Party?
#15. To: scrapper2 (#8)
#16. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#9)
To club America with taxation and inflation at the same time will break the country.
#17. To: Sam Houston (#15)
So if I am not even in the middle class, I even more can say that if my vote were for sale, I'd have to give it to the guy so many on this site seem to love to hate.
#18. To: Sam Houston (#16)
To club America with taxation and inflation at the same time will break the country.
#19. To: christine (#0)
#20. To: buckeye (#19)
But does he support additional Holocaust reparations, including judgments against the insurance industry and the American people for not stopping the Holocaust earlier?
#21. To: All (#16)
#22. To: Sam Houston (#21)
To: All
#23. To: Rotara (#17)
(Edited)
#24. To: Sam Houston (#15)
I can tell you and I do not have the same definition of "middle class."
#25. To: scrapper2 (#24)
#26. To: Sam Houston (#23)
You need to read the entire thread. Up near the top I already said I was voting Libertarian. I said "if" I were selling my vote.
#27. To: Sam Houston (#23)
#28. To: Rotara (#20)
#29. To: Sam Houston (#25)
Concentration of wealth through bailout of Wall Street bankers is not going to work either.
#30. To: buckeye (#28)
#31. To: scrapper2 (#29)
#32. To: scrapper2 (#29)
Fyi, the Dems were just as much on board with the bail-out as the Gopers.
#33. To: buckeye (#28)
(Edited)
#34. To: Sam Houston (#31)
If the GOPigs had wanted to stop this, they could have.
#35. To: Rotara (#30)
#36. To: buckeye (#35)
I'm confused. First you're talking about ditches. Next you're talking about lawlessness. Then you're talking about revolution. I can't keep up with you. Between Hal Lindsey and the rapture, I'm pretty much out of your cultural milieu.
#37. To: Rotara (#36)
#38. To: buckeye, Rotara (#35)
I'm confused. First you're talking about ditches. Next you're talking about lawlessness. Then you're talking about revolution. I can't keep up with you. Between Hal Lindsey and the rapture, I'm pretty much out of your cultural milieu.
#39. To: scrapper2 (#33)
Psst. Ready to pay reparations for slavery? Obama's your man. — A Presidet Barack Obama would force American taxpayers to compensate "victims of slavery" (Andy Martin, 2007).
#40. To: buckeye (#39)
RIPTON, Vermont: Robert Frost wrote once that "good fences make good neighbors." We love Frost - we live on land he once owned in this small Green Mountain town - but that's the poet being cynical. What really makes for good neighbors, as the 562 residents have learned over the years, is a post office like the one this town has enjoyed since the 1800s. Tucked into a tiny corner of the general store, the post office is our town commons, a place where neighbor has no choice but to rub shoulders with neighbor.
#41. To: Rotara, buckeye (#36)
Between Hal Lindsey and the rapture
.
.
.