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Title: Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles
Source:
Yahoo - AP
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815 ... e_eu/russia_us_missile_defense
Published: Aug 15, 2008
Author: JIM HEINTZ
Post Date: 2008-08-15 13:51:07 by Rotara
Keywords: None
Views: 1800
Comments: 90
1 hour, 2 minutes ago MOSCOW - A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported. The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations. Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force. "Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying. He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax. At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words. U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia. Russian forces went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of its small, pro-U.S. neighbor, which has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or even to force its government to collapse. "I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, when asked about Russian threats against Poland as a result of the missile defense agreement. He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program may be reevaluated considering the latest developments. Under the agreement that Warsaw and Washington reached Thursday, Poland will accept an American missile interceptor base. Washington says the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. The Kremlin, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force and warns it will worsen tensions. In an interview on Poland's news channel TVN24, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the Eastern European country. He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble." That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia. Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil. "Simply the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said Friday. ___ Associated Press writers Lolita C. Baldor in Washington and Vanessa Gera in Warsaw, Poland contributed to this report.
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#33. To: orangedog, All (#30)
Bump. Excellent observations. I like your last statement in particular. And if Poland for example has missile intercepter bases, and if in theory, Russia and the USA begin hostilities in earnest, won't Russia's missiles rain over Poland and kill the Poles in order for the Continental nations - old Europe - like France and Italy - to be kept safe and unscathed??? So why is the Polish government volunteering for this suicidal job?
Russia did not become the worlds largest nation as a gift from God like some other people. They took it by force, threat and intimidation. Two things come to mind on that subject... During our Civil War, Russia was meddling, in that by sending a fleet here in support of the North. The Russians in the 1930s had plans of going to the English channel. That is why they pushed and aided Hitler to move WEST first, in hopes he would be so weakened they could attack from behind and march to the channel. When the West caved in weeks, Stalin knew he was next. I have zero sympathy for the Russians. They are friends to no one.
I did not cite reasons for why Russia has been trying to keep Poland and the Ukraine under its thumb as a matter of being sympathetic to Russia. I merely gave you and others the reasons why I thought Poland and Ukraine were continually victimized by Russia. Russia's reasons are not good for Poland and the Ukraine - they are good reasons for Russia only. Russia acts in its own interests as most countries do except for America. Since the 6 Day War, America has re-ordered its priorities. It no longer acts solely in its own interests. Since the LBJ Administration, America been acting in 2 nation's best interests - ie. Israel's and America's. Unfortunately Israel's interests are not America's best interests and in fact are the opposite of America's best interests. And that's why we are having the problems we do in the Middle East today. Professors Mearsheimer and Walt do an excellent job in their 400 page book "The Israel Lobby" in illustrating how our gov't is putting Israel's interests first in our ME foreign policy and how America is suffering terrible consequences for that very reason. ( examples being the situation with Iraq and Iran)
Yup. Good to see ya.
It may be time to start donating in lead... If we begin to unload the type and quantity of ordnance required to push the Soviet troops out of Georgia (Abkhazia/South Ossetia), then hide the young people because a draft will be on it's heels imo. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Russia acts in its own interests as most countries do except for America. Since the 6 Day War, America has re-ordered its priorities. It no longer acts solely in its own interests. Since the LBJ Administration, America been acting in 2 nation's best interests - ie. Israel's and America's. Unfortunately Israel's interests are not America's best interests and in fact are the opposite of America's best interests. And that's why we are having the problems we do in the Middle East today. Professors Mearsheimer and Walt do an excellent job in their 400 page book "The Israel Lobby" in illustrating how our gov't is putting Israel's interests first in our ME foreign policy and how America is suffering terrible consequences for that very reason. ( examples being the situation with Iraq and Iran) We've already determined that you don't know your head from your ass when it comes to the international globalist power structure. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
The only 'winners' will be the MIC and the banksters.
If only we could get the boots to turn on their MIC puppets and we the people could rout out the scum banksters from America. We'd have half a chance. Too many people, though, have their craniums lodged in their sphincters. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
"We" is I presume "you." And you know so much about international ggggggglobalists. That's the depth of your political analysis - it's always one liners about ggggglobalists, ttttraitors, ttttrilateralists, and CCCCCFRers being the cause of every problem in the US and the world. You never dissect or identify any event. You never see permutations, complexities of situations. You rarely offer insightful opinions. It's always the gggglobalists and traitors, and new world orders - those same old same old "safe" all encompassing labels you turn to. Btw in as much as you talk about the terms have you ever gone to the library and read foreign policy magazines like what's published by the CFR? They do publish one btw - it's not secret at all - and its been published since the 1920's I believe. Or have you bothered to browse through reference textbooks like Axelrod's "The international encyclopedia of secret societies and fraternal orders"? Bet you haven't - I have. I actually use academic and public libraries for expanding my knowledge - do you? I suspect not. Try wrapping your brain around this immutable fact, bucko - the US has 1000's of secret societies. They have always been and they always will be. It's not the societies that are the problem, it's the influence of certain individuals who might be in them. And these individuals - like Henry Kissinger, for example - would be influential and anti-America, regardless if they were in CFR or not. Richard, Gere, a pretty boy light weight political dilatant is a member of CFR and he has zero influence on US foreign policy and CFR membership does not help him. Sheldon Adelson, to my knowledge, is not a member of CFR. However Sheldon Adelson is the 3 richest man in the USA. Sheldon Adelson is a bigtime Zionist and he brings the power and influence of his riches to bear on the White House and Congressmen and Senators to promote his singular interest in life - Israel, and Adelson presses Israel's interests on our federal law makers even when Israel's interests are in conflict with America's interests. Here's some examples of how I see individuals influencing foreign policy today. When Sheldon Adelson calls any US President, they answer the phone no matter what they are doing, no matter what meeting they are in. If Richard Gere calls, a message is taken. If Henry Kissinger calls, more than likely the call is taken on the spot but sometimes a message is taken and a call back is done later in the day - there's not the urgency as when Adelson calls. Kissinger is a powerful man because of his personal stature in politics and his contacts with powerful people like Adelson, some of whom he has met through his CFR membership but many whom he has met outside CFR. Times have changed and especially so the past 10-15 years. Power and influence in world political affairs have been re-configured to accomodate the amazing personal wealth accumulated by a handful of very very rich individuals in the world. CFR is a powerful organization - absolutely - but is its influence as great today as it was during the 30's, 40's 50's, 60's ? I would suggest to you that the answer is "no." Organizations like CFR have had to take a back seat to MONEYED INDIVIDUALS like Adelson. Look at the Forbes list of billionaires - those are the people who rule Presidents, Kings, and Queens. And they don't need no CFR membership to give them the clout they have today. You don't have to agree with my opinions. Frankly I could care less what a shallow intellect like youself thinks of my opinions. I have opinions because I analyze. And I take the time and energy to support my opinions. You have no opinions. You do not analyze. You have only safe labels. So for a person like you to be critical of me and my knowledge of foreign affairs is beyond laughable. Stuff it where the sun don't shine, rotorooter.
You are beyond laughable. You're an old school joke who's obsessed with everything BUT our solution. You running around telling people what YOU think reality is and YOU don't even know what the CFR's (and I'm sure the Trilateralists or the Bilderberg Society or any of the others) mission statement is. You're an idiot. And a NAZI. Now run along, there's a secular jew under your bed waiting to get you. Better go kill him. Ya dumb beotch. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
You running around telling people what YOU think reality is and YOU don't even know what the CFR's (and I'm sure the Trilateralists or the Bilderberg Society or any of the others) mission statement is. You're an idiot. And a NAZI. Now run along, there's a secular jew under your bed waiting to get you. Better go kill him. Ya dumb beotch. ;-) Catch a clue, genius. Your self-promoted highly vaunted oh-so deep foreign policy knowledge about CFR's Trilateralists, Bilderberg Society is accessible to elementary school age children using Google. Duh. Your stomping around and shouting obscenities and calling me a NAZI 1000 times does not scare me or turn me into a NAZI, she-man. And it's rather rich irony that a Rapturenutter like yourself - whose religious beliefs revolves around hoping and cheering for Israel's ultimate destruction and lotsa Jewish Israelis being killed, well except for those few Israelis and Jews who convert to your warped version of Christianity - accuses me of being a Nazi and of hating Jews. Riiiiighttt, that's rich irony indeed. Listen up, Mr. Pretend Christian. I don't cheer and hope and pray and look forward to Israel being destroyed in a nuclear holocaust. I don't insult Judaism and its beliefs like you do, secretly looking down it Judaism, and wanting to prostelyze Jews and convert them because you think your sick version of Christianity is the only way to Heaven. And another thing, rotorooter, I actually have Jewish friends and neighbors and professional acquaintances who look forward to seeing me and spending time with me, who respect and trust me, as opposed to your situation, no doubt, wherein you scare off Jews once they discover what a dis-respectful attitude you have to Judaism and what you want to happen to Israel so you can leap frog over death and destruction to Heaven. March on, brother, the cataclysmic event you so wish for might be right around the corner. Gack.
Very well stated. I wouldn't vote for either of them for dog catcher, let alone for president of this country.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Now run along, there's a secular jew under your bed waiting to get you. Better go kill him. Ya dumb beotch. ;-) This bullshit is totally uncalled for. Grow up, please, for the sake of this forum. Scrapper is one of the best posters the forum has because she does her homework on various topics and issues.....it isn't just 'blather' or 'bleating'. Certainly not the same old, same old. You don't have to agree with her, or anyone else, for that matter, but you should at least be civil. If you think she is so far off base, why not back up YOUR contentions with the same degree of information that she posts?
LOL - now THAT is a good one!!! ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
This is beginning to get worrisome. It is obvious that the missile emplacements that are being scheduled for Poland are NOT defensive systems. The undercurrent is that the NWO/Globalists are using the US to encircle Russia and the Russians are not going to go meekly into the night while their perimeter is set up with missiles aimed at Russia. The idiots pushing this strategy are courting Global Thermonuclear War. It is almost as though the nihilistic Sociopaths/Psychotics are trying to instigate such a scenario. Of course the elite have deep bunkers interconnected via rail systems and regard a nuclear war as survivable for them. Those of us not so privileged are sitting ducks. However, the Russian mainland is much more survivable than ours. Hit the Yellowstone shield volcano and you could possibly bury much of the continent in radioactive volcanic ash. So, the apparent confrontation of Russia via USrael's cat's paw, Georgia, takes on much larger implications, and the attempt to ring Russia with missile emplacement pushes the Russian buttons to the point where they might feel that they must act to take out those emplacements before they can be used against them. This is not good.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
With that I must agree. Your ungentlemanly behavior toward Scrapper is something I find inexplicable. I understand that tempers do become frayed and a forum is not always run by Marquis De Queensbury rules, but there has to be a reason for your "Brass Knuckle" behavior as it was out of place given what Scrapper had to say - agree or disagree. What has she done or said that has you so fired up?
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
I was paying attention from the start. For what it's worth, in my opinion Rotara is one of the good guys, but although I understand it, I agree that the behavior is very ungentlemanly... Edit: ...and uncalled for.
She's no lady. She's a Zbig shill that has no answers for America, only contempt for Israel. Loser. FWIW, I held back. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I went ahead and spent the afternoon retracing it, post by CFR-Trilat post. I got so freaking angry again I had to go hit the heavy bag for awhile. I have it all documented, be sure of that. I apologize for offending your sensibilities. You see the whole board as well as anyone out there and if you're another one of these RNCFR shills - you sure have me fooled! ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I think at one time or another I have managed to piss off the Rinobots, the Israbots, Anarcusts, Oh'Bummerphiles, Hitleryites, Goldi-Pox, and the slack jawed drooling mouth breathing FReeptards. All modesty aside I am filled with pride at having been a bit of a burden on their disinformational careers and a disturbance to their "Rosy Scenarios".
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
With which I also agree, which is part of why I am puzzled by the behavior. I know there is a reason, but still even fundamental disagreements can be handled without personal epithets.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
FWIW, I held back. ;-)
Rotara, you are such a boorish ignorant ill-informed
cartoonesque moron that words cannot properly describe you. FWIW, I held
back. ;-) a. when have I "shilled" for Zbig? Just because I don't listen
to Genesis Network or read Hal Lindsey fiction, that hardly makes me a Zhib
shill by default. b. of course I've given answers for America - they are
not flashy impractical recommendations like what others have said when they
harkened back to the American Revolution. Nonetheless my ideas if implemented
by all US voters would reap very positive results for America. For
example, we voters must impose our own version of term limits for
congresscritters to deflect the deleterious influence of lobby groups - a
continual revolving door bringing fresh new faces of critters every 8 years
would lessen the opportunity of lobbyists getting their tentacles into elected
politicians who are supposed to serve us not them. Ergo, I have always
advocated that we should always vote against the incumbent. Secondly we
need to pressure our critters to pass legislation that would prohibit dual
citizens from serving in an policy level position with the US government. This
would send a message that only unhyphenated Americans without split loyalties
need to work in our government. Thirdly the Israel Lobby needs to be
required to register as a foreign lobby group - the legislation is in place,
it just needs to be implemented. A foreign lobby group registration would not
only make clear to prospective contributors that Israel is a separate nation
and government from America but it would also disallow tax deductible
donations for US citizens. There would be no financial incentive for US
citizens to donate as exists today if the Israel Lobby was properly
registered. The Israel Lobby is the #2 ranked lobby group in DC. It follows
the AARP. The goals of senior citizens are not what is killing America today
re: wasted American blood and treasure in a foreign war and occupation. Otoh,
the Israel Lobby's goals are. Fourthly we need to pressure federal
politicians to end foreign aid except in response to natural events like
earthquakes, etc. Wasting US tax $'s abroad to bribe Third Word thugs and keep
the First World nation of Israel financially afloat has zero to do with taking
care of American citizens and America's infra structure and sovereignity needs
stateside, which is the federal government's mandate. If it takes a while to
get this foreign aid black hole of waste changed 100% to our satisfaction, we
can get the ball rolling by enlisting pro-constitution legal organizations to
make a legal challenge to the US government giving taxpayer support to foreign
nation-states that have theocratic aspects - as in the case of Iran, Israel,
Saudi Arabia - which are in direct conflict with US Constitutional principles
specifically the Constitutional Amendment mandating freedom of religion. Right
off the bat, $3 -$5 Billion annual foreign aid to Israel would be stopped and
would be re-directed to America for Americans instead, and as it should be, if
the lawsuit were judged in the US constitutional legal advocates' favor.
Those are places I'd start - in order to win the big battles often it starts
with winning small skirmishes and building on those winnings - ground floor up
philosophy, if you will. c. as for Israel, my primary concerns revolve
around the well documented issue of Israel and Israel's advocates meddling and
compromising the US government for the sole purpose of having our government
put Israel's interests first, which causes America's best interests to take a
secondary priority and worse putting Israel's interests first actually
threatens America's best interests. In my opinion, the single greatest
threat to America's future survival is our misguided ME foreign policy. This
disastrous AmericaLast foreign policy is bleeding American blood and treasure
in Iraq to a point where America is on its knees. And this AmericaLast foreign
policy would most certainly spell America's demise if it led us to attack Iran
for Israel's benefit or if we provided logistic, military, financial support
to Israel for its attack on Iran. Open borders and outsourced jobs and
industry and abortion on demand pale in comparison to the deadly - and
literally so - consequences of the course we are have been on since the LBJ
Administration - in regards to our foreign entanglement with Israel - a nation
with whom we have no mutual defense treaty because Israel pointedly refuses to
sign one and put Israeli blood or treasure at risk for America's security.
If supporting Israel brought America and Americans benefit, perhaps such
support could be justified at some level. But Israel is not a strategic asset
in the ME nor does it offer resources we need. If anything opening up
diplomacy and trade with Iran might be in America's best interests. Israel
prevents America from forming any type of relationship with Iran other than
one involving war. My secondary concern and this is only because my
government is currently tied to the hip of Israel is related to Israel's
thuggish behavior of the Palestinians, which reflects exceedingly poorly on
America and causes us - yes,us as in American unhyphenated citizens - deadly
blow back consequences. Fyi, OBL's #1 stated grievance and confirmed by
Michael Scheuer, the CIA's own former house resident expert on OBL and the Al
Quaeda organization and the best recruiting tool for the aforementioned, is
America's unqualified support for Israel in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
In terms of your accusation that I only have "contempt" for Israel. Are
you kidding? Contempt? Ha! That remark demonstrates how ill-informed and
poorly read you are and especially with regards to postings on this board.
I have stated several times on this board that I admire Israel specifically
for the way the Israel government always serves the best interests of Israel
and without fail put Israelis first. In fact I have remarked that I wish that
our American government would do the same for its citizenry and nation as
Israel's government does for Israel and Israelis. Any more clarification
your addled brain needs, Rotara, in terms of the political positions I really
have as opposed to what you wrongly think I have? Btw, Rotara, I am a lady
and I'm a very intelligent lady at that, your opposing opinion
notwithstanding.
Could we have a grade transcript from PG school and a note from your Mother????? Just kiddin. Stop throwing things. Geeezzzz.
FWIW, I held back. ;-) Remind me not to get you really mad at me. ;-)
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
Rotara: I went ahead and spent the afternoon retracing it, post by CFR-Trilat post. I got so freaking angry again I had to go hit the heavy bag for awhile. I have it all documented, be sure of that. What a laugh. You, Rotara, are a certifiable crazed headcase. I've never come across anything like it before. Furthermore the image you depict of you studiously retracing imaginary non-existent "post by CFR-Trilat post" by scrapper serves as further evidence of your brain-addled madness. Frankly I doubt you can retrace your way home, unless there were GPS bread crumbs to mark the way for you, much less so called "documented" pro CFR-Trilat posts by scrapper. As to your irrational anger motivated need to "hit the heavy bag" - this is more evidence of an obsession, a scary hatred for scrapper, a net name, that fore shadows a complete mental decompensation. You, Rotara, need to seek medical help and fast.
I'm defending myself against a crazed headcase who makes hateful remarks to me and about me and presents deliberate mis-representations about my political positions. Are you saying I should not fight back, that I should ignore or turn the other cheek to insults and lies? Maybe that philosophy works for you. It doesn't for me.
You said you were a lady, I can accept that. You also said you were intelligent, so I asked for outside confirmation. And or a note from your Mother. There is a little humor there if you look around.
Maybe that philosophy works for you. It doesn't for me. Actually I think Cyni is more of a broken Beer Bottle and Brass Knuckles kinda' guy. ;-)
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
There is a little humor there if you look around. And if you look around you will notice that I did not challenge the portion of your remarks that were clearly humorous. What I responded to were your remarks which came AFTER the point when you said you were kidding. Those latter comments were not included in your "just kiddin" qualifier and I read that to represent your pointed criticism of the way I have been methodically responding to each and every one of Rotara's hateful insults and lies. This is your message to me: Could we have a grade transcript from PG school and a note from your Mother????? Just kiddin. Stop throwing things. Geeezzzz. I only made a response to what came after "just kiddin" which was: "Stop throwing things. Geeezzzz." Postscript: If you did not mean to criticize me or to give me unsolicited advice, I sincerely apologize for my misunderstanding your intent.
I may be old and stupid but I have also been married nearly 60 years, I well know enough to NEVER criticize a female or give them advice. This olde dog learned early on, doing such is harmful to ones health. (Tag to Scrap...abv is sad humor)
For example, we voters must impose our own version of term limits for congresscritters to deflect the deleterious influence of lobby groups - a continual revolving door bringing fresh new faces of critters every 8 years would lessen the opportunity of lobbyists getting their tentacles into elected politicians who are supposed to serve us not them. Ergo, I have always advocated that we should always vote against the incumbent. Secondly we need to pressure our critters to pass legislation that would prohibit dual citizens from serving in an policy level position with the US government. This would send a message that only unhyphenated Americans without split loyalties need to work in our government. Thirdly the Israel Lobby needs to be required to register as a foreign lobby group - the legislation is in place, it just needs to be implemented. A foreign lobby group registration would not only make clear to prospective contributors that Israel is a separate nation and government from America but it would also disallow tax deductible donations for US citizens. There would be no financial incentive for US citizens to donate as exists today if the Israel Lobby was properly registered. The Israel Lobby is the #2 ranked lobby group in DC. It follows the AARP. The goals of senior citizens are not what is killing America today re: wasted American blood and treasure in a foreign war and occupation. Otoh, the Israel Lobby's goals are. Fourthly we need to pressure federal politicians to end foreign aid except in response to natural events like earthquakes, etc. Wasting US tax $'s abroad to bribe Third Word thugs and keep the First World nation of Israel financially afloat has zero to do with taking care of American citizens and America's infra structure and sovereignity needs stateside, which is the federal government's mandate. If it takes a while to get this foreign aid black hole of waste changed 100% to our satisfaction, we can get the ball rolling by enlisting pro-constitution legal organizations to make a legal challenge to the US government giving taxpayer support to foreign nation-states that have theocratic aspects - as in the case of Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia - which are in direct conflict with US Constitutional principles specifically the Constitutional Amendment mandating freedom of religion. Right off the bat, $3 -$5 Billion annual foreign aid to Israel would be stopped and would be re-directed to America for Americans instead, and as it should be, if the lawsuit were judged in the US constitutional legal advocates' favor. Those are places I'd start - in order to win the big battles often it starts with winning small skirmishes and building on those winnings - ground floor up philosophy, if you will. c. as for Israel, my primary concerns revolve around the well documented issue of Israel and Israel's advocates meddling and compromising the US government for the sole purpose of having our government put Israel's interests first, which causes America's best interests to take a secondary priority and worse putting Israel's interests first actually threatens America's best interests. In my opinion, the single greatest threat to America's future survival is our misguided ME foreign policy. This disastrous AmericaLast foreign policy is bleeding American blood and treasure in Iraq to a point where America is on its knees. And this AmericaLast foreign policy would most certainly spell America's demise if it led us to attack Iran for Israel's benefit or if we provided logistic, military, financial support to Israel for its attack on Iran. Open borders and outsourced jobs and industry and abortion on demand pale in comparison to the deadly - and literally so - consequences of the course we are have been on since the LBJ Administration - in regards to our foreign entanglement with Israel - a nation with whom we have no mutual defense treaty because Israel pointedly refuses to sign one and put Israeli blood or treasure at risk for America's security. If supporting Israel brought America and Americans benefit, perhaps such support could be justified at some level. But Israel is not a strategic asset in the ME nor does it offer resources we need. If anything opening up diplomacy and trade with Iran might be in America's best interests. Israel prevents America from forming any type of relationship with Iran other than one involving war. My secondary concern and this is only because my government is currently tied to the hip of Israel is related to Israel's thuggish behavior of the Palestinians, which reflects exceedingly poorly on America and causes us - yes,us as in American unhyphenated citizens - deadly blow back consequences. Fyi, OBL's #1 stated grievance and confirmed by Michael Scheuer, the CIA's own former house resident expert on OBL and the Al Quaeda organization and the best recruiting tool for the aforementioned, is America's unqualified support for Israel in the Israel-Palestinian conflict. outstandingly articulated and well reasoned, scrapper.
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
stupid you are not, Cyni. neither you or scrapper need take a backseat as far as intelligence.
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
This olde dog learned early on, doing such is harmful to ones health. Then I offer you my sincere apology for misunderstanding the intent of your post #55.
No apology needed but welcomed anyway. I charge Christine ten cents a post here on the forum. Some days very lucrative.
And I second christine's opinion of your intelligence, cyni. I may not always agree with your opinions, but I always learn from and truly appreciate the historical context you often bring to bear in the course of explaining the political positions you take.
the check's in the mail ;)
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
I agree. And I like your tagline, the quote by Herbert Spencer. I used to use that one myself on another board.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. I think at one time or another I have managed to piss off the Rinobots, the Israbots, Anarcusts, Oh'Bummerphiles, Hitleryites, Goldi-Pox, and the slack jawed drooling mouth breathing FReeptards. All modesty aside I am filled with pride at having been a bit of a burden on their disinformational careers and a disturbance to their "Rosy Scenarios". The only One that was perfect got smashed, spit on and nailed to a tree. ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
I agree. I love you guys, too. Just don't ever piss on my leg and tell me it's raining! LOL ;-)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
This is not good. I'm sure the Russians are thinking the same thing, and are planning what their next step will be. With all of the hate directed at them from our "leaders" and bullshit masters, I'm certain they aren't ready to have an ice cream party and just brush it off.
James Deffenbach: I agree. Why would the two of you, wudidiz and JD, say Rotara "is one of the good guys." What are your points of reference? I'm curious. Okay, wudidiz, I know it's almost second nature for Canadians to be polite and to seek a conciliatory position so perhaps that may influence your tacking thusly to manoeuvre around the storm - for the record, Rotara is this BUT on the otherhand, scrapper does not deserve... But politeness aside, why do you see Rotara one of the good guys, I mean politically speaking, of course? Frankly I view Rotara as representing the Useful Idiot class of American citizenry. Rotara has a little bit of insight so he can sling the catchy political phrases like globalist,TriLat-CFR traitors to give the impression that he's politically knowledgeable. Oh cool Rotara knows where it's at - he's no fool. But in fact what a person like Rotara does is give cover to the greatest threat to America's future survival, which is imo our government's foreign entanglement with Israel, whose interests are not America's interests, and indeed are frequently at odds with America's interests. Israel's threat to America by way of blood and treasure being hemorrhaged in the ME for the benefit of Israel's security, not America's security; by way of enemies we acquire as blow back for our government's unqualified support of Israel in the Israel Palestinian conflict; by way of partnerships we are forbidden from engaging in due to Israel's wishes; and pending wars we may enter that have little to do with America's defense but all to do with Israel's machinations and interests - read: Russia and Iran. It's a Useful Idiot like Rotara that kicks dust up to the otherwise clearly defined enemy, an enemy from without and whose advocates represent the enemy from within. It's Rotara and evangelicals like him who represent the 4th largest voting block in America, whose Israel priorities are antithetical to America's best interests. It's the Rotara evangelical block of voters that openly prays for a nuclear holocaust in the ME - for them Israel is a central player to their ascension to Heaven after the final earthly apocalyptic battle of good versus evil so Israel's image must be protected and preserved as the good little David nation fighting the Goliath of Islam , no criticism, no realism allowed about Israel's imperfections and threats it poses for America or the Biblical story won't come to be from the evangelical perspective but for us as long as we are tied to the hip of Israel and a flawed self-serving Israel at that, this scenario ensures our fair nation's demise - in the real not the Biblical sense. But perhaps you two see in Rotara something that I do not see. Please tell me what those assets, those qualities - politically speaking - are. Imo, unless Rotara acknowledges the serious problem that America's entanglement with Israel poses, but instead avoids and in many cases poisons discussions about the issue, Rotara is not "a good guy". Indeed Rotara's mindset is part of the "elephant in the room" problem for which politically informed Americans are seeking an effective solution in order to stop America's downward spiral.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThose dumbasses need to stop poking the bear with that stick. The idiots obviously still think this is 1994 and Russia is still ran buy an ass grabbing lush and that the bear is de-clawed and toothless. While it's debatable if Iran has carrier killer missiles, Russia has them in spades. They are probably the only force on the planet that can take the US out of the power projection business. You don't have to live in fear of the bear, but you damned well better have some respect for it.
#34. To: scrapper2 (#32)
and it's not just Poland,
#35. To: Cynicom (#34)
I have zero sympathy for the Russians. They are friends to no one.
#36. To: buckeye (#27)
"Hey, FM you're back."
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#37. To: lodwick (#31)
We gave a load. Who knows what it will go for our guys...
#38. To: scrapper2 (#35)
I did not cite reasons for why Russia has been trying to keep Poland and the Ukraine under its thumb as a matter of being sympathetic to Russia. I merely gave you and others the reasons why I thought Poland and Ukraine were continually victimized by Russia. Russia's reasons are not good for Poland and the Ukraine - they are good reasons for Russia only.
#39. To: Rotara (#37)
If we begin to unload the type and quantity of ordnance required to push the Soviet troops out of Georgia (Abkhazia/South Ossetia), then hide the young people because a draft will be on it's heels imo. ;-)
#40. To: lodwick (#39)
The only 'winners' will be the MIC and the banksters.
#41. To: Rotara, James Deffenbach, rowdee (#38)
We've already determined that you don't know your head from your ass when it comes to the international globalist power structure. ;-)
#42. To: scrapper2 (#41)
So for a person like you to be critical of me and my knowledge of foreign affairs is beyond laughable.
#43. To: Rotara, buckeye, rowdee, christine, Diana, Original_Intent (#42)
(Edited)
You are beyond laughable. You're an old school joke who's obsessed with everything BUT our solution.
#44. To: Hayek Fan (#21)
Obama and McCain are out of the question. They are part of the problem so cannot be the answer.
Lord Acton
#45. To: Rotara, Christine, scrapper2 (#42)
And a NAZI.
#46. To: rowdee (#45)
Scrapper is one of the best posters the forum has because she does her homework on various topics and issues
#47. To: Rotara, Hayek Fan, Scrapper2, Cynicom, Lodwick, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, Ferret Mike, aristeides, all (#0)
#48. To: Rotara, rowdee, Scrapper2 (#46)
You don't have to agree with her, or anyone else, for that matter, but you should at least be civil.
#49. To: Original_Intent, scrapper2, Rotara (#48)
(Edited)
With that I must agree. Your ungentlemanly behavior toward Scrapper is something I find inexplicable.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer
#50. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#49)
#51. To: Original_Intent (#48)
What has she done or said that has you so fired up?
#52. To: Rotara (#51)
You see the whole board as well as anyone out there and if you're another one of these RNCFR shills - you sure have me fooled! ;-)
#53. To: wudidiz, Rotara (#49)
I was paying attention from the start. For what it's worth, in my opinion Rotara is one of the good guys,
#54. To: Rotara, wudidiz, Original_Intent (#50)
(Edited)
She's no lady. She's a Zbig shill that has no answers for
America, only contempt for Israel. Loser.
#55. To: scrapper2 (#54)
I am a lady and I'm very intelligent lady at that.
#56. To: scrapper2 (#54)
Rotara, you are such a boorish ignorant ill-informed cartoonesque moron that words cannot properly describe you.
#57. To: Rotara, Original_Intent, buckeye, christine, rowdee, Diana, All (#51)
OI: What has she done or said that has you so fired up?
#58. To: Cynicom (#55)
Stop throwing things. Geeezzzz.
#59. To: scrapper2 (#58)
(Edited)
#60. To: scrapper2, Cynicom (#58)
Are you saying I should not fight back, that I should ignore or turn the other cheek to insults and lies?
#61. To: Cynicom, Original_Intent (#59)
(Edited)
You said you were a lady, I can accept that. You also said you were intelligent, so I asked for outside confirmation. And or a note from your Mother.
#62. To: scrapper2 (#61)
Postscript: If you did not mean to criticize me or to give me unsolicited advice
#63. To: scrapper2 (#54)
b. of course I've given answers for America - they are not flashy impractical recommendations like what others have said when they harkened back to the American Revolution. Nonetheless my ideas if implemented by all US voters would reap very positive results for America.
#64. To: Cynicom, scrapper2 (#62)
#65. To: Cynicom (#62)
I may be old and stupid but I have also been married nearly 60 years, I well know enough to NEVER criticize a female or give them advice.
#66. To: scrapper2 (#65)
#67. To: Cynicom, christine (#66)
No apology needed but welcomed anyway.
#68. To: Cynicom (#66)
#69. To: wudidiz, Rotara (#49)
For what it's worth, in my opinion Rotara is one of the good guys
Lord Acton
#70. To: Original_Intent (#52)
You see the whole board as well as anyone out there and if you're another one of these RNCFR shills - you sure have me fooled! ;-)
#71. To: James Deffenbach, wudidiz (#69)
For what it's worth, in my opinion Rotara is one of the good guys
#72. To: Original_Intent (#47)
So, the apparent confrontation of Russia via USrael's cat's paw, Georgia, takes on much larger implications, and the attempt to ring Russia with missile emplacement pushes the Russian buttons to the point where they might feel that they must act to take out those emplacements before they can be used against them.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#73. To: James Deffenbach, wudidiz, Rotara, buckeye, Original_Intent (#69)
(Edited)
wudidiz: For what it's worth, in my opinion Rotara is one of the good guys
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