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Neocon Nuttery
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Title: Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles
Source: Yahoo - AP
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815 ... e_eu/russia_us_missile_defense
Published: Aug 15, 2008
Author: JIM HEINTZ
Post Date: 2008-08-15 13:51:07 by Rotara
Keywords: None
Views: 1797
Comments: 90

1 hour, 2 minutes ago

MOSCOW - A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.

The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.

Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force.

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.

He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax.

At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Russian forces went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of its small, pro-U.S. neighbor, which has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or even to force its government to collapse.

"I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, when asked about Russian threats against Poland as a result of the missile defense agreement.

He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program may be reevaluated considering the latest developments.

Under the agreement that Warsaw and Washington reached Thursday, Poland will accept an American missile interceptor base.

Washington says the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. The Kremlin, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force and warns it will worsen tensions.

In an interview on Poland's news channel TVN24, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the Eastern European country.

He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble."

That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia.

Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil.

"Simply the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said Friday.

___

Associated Press writers Lolita C. Baldor in Washington and Vanessa Gera in Warsaw, Poland contributed to this report.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

#17. To: Rotara (#0)

"Simply the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said Friday.

Of course it increases their security. It also unfortunately makes them much more dependent on the USA for protection. It's not good to be dependent on any foreign nation for any thing.

RickyJ  posted on  2008-08-15   14:36:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: RickyJ (#17)

Of course it increases their security. It also unfortunately makes them much more dependent on the USA for protection. It's not good to be dependent on any foreign nation for any thing.

Entangling alliance. ;-)

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-15   16:11:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Rotara (#25)

Russia has been at Polands throat for centuries.

The last time with Stalin and Hitler.

" * The First Partition: August 5, 1772. * The Second Partition: January 23, 1793 (in which Austria did not participate). * The Third Partition: October 24, 1795.

The less often used term "Fourth Partition of Poland" may refer to any subsequent division of Polish lands, specifically:

* after the Napoleonic Era, the 1815 division of the Duchy of Warsaw at the Congress of Vienna; * the 1832 incorporation of the "Congress Kingdom" into Russia, and the 1846 incorporation of the Republic of Kraków into Austria; and * the 1939 division of Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union pursuant to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.[4]

Cynicom  posted on  2008-08-15   20:52:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Cynicom (#28)

Russia has been at Polands throat for centuries.

I think there are a number of reasons for this and it's not just Poland, it's also the Ukraine that Russia has always tried to get under its thumb, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. But there has always been tension with those 3 countries.

1. Both Poland and the Ukraine represent important geo-political buffer states to Mother Russia that an invading army needs to cross to get at Russia so Russia would like to have both nations under its sphere of influence to keep a watchful eye on the leanings/loyalties of the Poles and Ukies so they don't engage in treachery and offer a back door easy access to Russia.

2. Poland and the Ukraine offer Russia ice free seaports for trade and commerce with European nations and for Russia's navy for defense purposes.

3. Poland and the Ukraine have always been culturally and intellectually advanced because of their proximity to European nations like Austria Germany the Netherlands and Scandanavia. Poles and Ukrainians offer Russia an educated and highly trainable pool of subjects to subjugate if necessary.

4. Poland and the Ukraine had land and climate that made them the agricultural bread baskets of Eastern Europe and since much of Russia's terrain and climate were not as hospitable to farming, Poland and the Ukraine were assets for providing food to Russian peoples.

5. Both Poland and the Ukraine have always been fervently nationalistic and if these 2 nations could be put under Russia's thumb, they would serve as object studies to other Eastern European nations who were less populous annd who had less of an innate independent drive or nature - "See, if the Poles and Ukies were thwarted in their efforts to separate from Russia's long hand, what chance do you folks in Estonia or Belarus or Czech Republic have?"

scrapper2  posted on  2008-08-15   21:52:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#32)

and it's not just Poland,

Russia did not become the worlds largest nation as a gift from God like some other people. They took it by force, threat and intimidation.

Two things come to mind on that subject...

During our Civil War, Russia was meddling, in that by sending a fleet here in support of the North.

The Russians in the 1930s had plans of going to the English channel. That is why they pushed and aided Hitler to move WEST first, in hopes he would be so weakened they could attack from behind and march to the channel. When the West caved in weeks, Stalin knew he was next.

I have zero sympathy for the Russians. They are friends to no one.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-08-15   22:00:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Cynicom (#34)

I have zero sympathy for the Russians. They are friends to no one.

I did not cite reasons for why Russia has been trying to keep Poland and the Ukraine under its thumb as a matter of being sympathetic to Russia. I merely gave you and others the reasons why I thought Poland and Ukraine were continually victimized by Russia. Russia's reasons are not good for Poland and the Ukraine - they are good reasons for Russia only.

Russia acts in its own interests as most countries do except for America. Since the 6 Day War, America has re-ordered its priorities. It no longer acts solely in its own interests. Since the LBJ Administration, America been acting in 2 nation's best interests - ie. Israel's and America's. Unfortunately Israel's interests are not America's best interests and in fact are the opposite of America's best interests. And that's why we are having the problems we do in the Middle East today.

Professors Mearsheimer and Walt do an excellent job in their 400 page book "The Israel Lobby" in illustrating how our gov't is putting Israel's interests first in our ME foreign policy and how America is suffering terrible consequences for that very reason. ( examples being the situation with Iraq and Iran)

scrapper2  posted on  2008-08-15   22:22:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: scrapper2 (#35)

I did not cite reasons for why Russia has been trying to keep Poland and the Ukraine under its thumb as a matter of being sympathetic to Russia. I merely gave you and others the reasons why I thought Poland and Ukraine were continually victimized by Russia. Russia's reasons are not good for Poland and the Ukraine - they are good reasons for Russia only.

Russia acts in its own interests as most countries do except for America. Since the 6 Day War, America has re-ordered its priorities. It no longer acts solely in its own interests. Since the LBJ Administration, America been acting in 2 nation's best interests - ie. Israel's and America's. Unfortunately Israel's interests are not America's best interests and in fact are the opposite of America's best interests. And that's why we are having the problems we do in the Middle East today.

Professors Mearsheimer and Walt do an excellent job in their 400 page book "The Israel Lobby" in illustrating how our gov't is putting Israel's interests first in our ME foreign policy and how America is suffering terrible consequences for that very reason. ( examples being the situation with Iraq and Iran)

We've already determined that you don't know your head from your ass when it comes to the international globalist power structure. ;-)

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-16   10:58:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Rotara, James Deffenbach, rowdee (#38)

We've already determined that you don't know your head from your ass when it comes to the international globalist power structure. ;-)

"We" is I presume "you."

And you know so much about international ggggggglobalists.

That's the depth of your political analysis - it's always one liners about ggggglobalists, ttttraitors, ttttrilateralists, and CCCCCFRers being the cause of every problem in the US and the world.

You never dissect or identify any event. You never see permutations, complexities of situations. You rarely offer insightful opinions. It's always the gggglobalists and traitors, and new world orders - those same old same old "safe" all encompassing labels you turn to.

Btw in as much as you talk about the terms have you ever gone to the library and read foreign policy magazines like what's published by the CFR? They do publish one btw - it's not secret at all - and its been published since the 1920's I believe. Or have you bothered to browse through reference textbooks like Axelrod's "The international encyclopedia of secret societies and fraternal orders"? Bet you haven't - I have. I actually use academic and public libraries for expanding my knowledge - do you? I suspect not.

Try wrapping your brain around this immutable fact, bucko - the US has 1000's of secret societies. They have always been and they always will be. It's not the societies that are the problem, it's the influence of certain individuals who might be in them. And these individuals - like Henry Kissinger, for example - would be influential and anti-America, regardless if they were in CFR or not.

Richard, Gere, a pretty boy light weight political dilatant is a member of CFR and he has zero influence on US foreign policy and CFR membership does not help him.

Sheldon Adelson, to my knowledge, is not a member of CFR. However Sheldon Adelson is the 3 richest man in the USA. Sheldon Adelson is a bigtime Zionist and he brings the power and influence of his riches to bear on the White House and Congressmen and Senators to promote his singular interest in life - Israel, and Adelson presses Israel's interests on our federal law makers even when Israel's interests are in conflict with America's interests.

Here's some examples of how I see individuals influencing foreign policy today.

When Sheldon Adelson calls any US President, they answer the phone no matter what they are doing, no matter what meeting they are in. If Richard Gere calls, a message is taken. If Henry Kissinger calls, more than likely the call is taken on the spot but sometimes a message is taken and a call back is done later in the day - there's not the urgency as when Adelson calls. Kissinger is a powerful man because of his personal stature in politics and his contacts with powerful people like Adelson, some of whom he has met through his CFR membership but many whom he has met outside CFR.

Times have changed and especially so the past 10-15 years. Power and influence in world political affairs have been re-configured to accomodate the amazing personal wealth accumulated by a handful of very very rich individuals in the world.

CFR is a powerful organization - absolutely - but is its influence as great today as it was during the 30's, 40's 50's, 60's ? I would suggest to you that the answer is "no." Organizations like CFR have had to take a back seat to MONEYED INDIVIDUALS like Adelson. Look at the Forbes list of billionaires - those are the people who rule Presidents, Kings, and Queens. And they don't need no CFR membership to give them the clout they have today.

You don't have to agree with my opinions. Frankly I could care less what a shallow intellect like youself thinks of my opinions.

I have opinions because I analyze. And I take the time and energy to support my opinions. You have no opinions. You do not analyze. You have only safe labels.

So for a person like you to be critical of me and my knowledge of foreign affairs is beyond laughable. Stuff it where the sun don't shine, rotorooter.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-08-16   12:44:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: scrapper2 (#41)

So for a person like you to be critical of me and my knowledge of foreign affairs is beyond laughable.

You are beyond laughable. You're an old school joke who's obsessed with everything BUT our solution.

You running around telling people what YOU think reality is and YOU don't even know what the CFR's (and I'm sure the Trilateralists or the Bilderberg Society or any of the others) mission statement is.

You're an idiot.

And a NAZI.

Now run along, there's a secular jew under your bed waiting to get you.

Better go kill him. Ya dumb beotch. ;-)

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-16   12:57:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Rotara, Christine, scrapper2 (#42)

And a NAZI.

Now run along, there's a secular jew under your bed waiting to get you.

Better go kill him. Ya dumb beotch. ;-)

This bullshit is totally uncalled for. Grow up, please, for the sake of this forum.

Scrapper is one of the best posters the forum has because she does her homework on various topics and issues.....it isn't just 'blather' or 'bleating'. Certainly not the same old, same old.

You don't have to agree with her, or anyone else, for that matter, but you should at least be civil.

If you think she is so far off base, why not back up YOUR contentions with the same degree of information that she posts?

rowdee  posted on  2008-08-16   17:22:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rowdee (#45)

Scrapper is one of the best posters the forum has because she does her homework on various topics and issues

LOL - now THAT is a good one!!! ;-)

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-16   18:02:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Rotara, rowdee, Scrapper2 (#46)

You don't have to agree with her, or anyone else, for that matter, but you should at least be civil.

With that I must agree. Your ungentlemanly behavior toward Scrapper is something I find inexplicable. I understand that tempers do become frayed and a forum is not always run by Marquis De Queensbury rules, but there has to be a reason for your "Brass Knuckle" behavior as it was out of place given what Scrapper had to say - agree or disagree.

What has she done or said that has you so fired up?

Original_Intent  posted on  2008-08-17   0:35:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Original_Intent, scrapper2, Rotara (#48) (Edited)

With that I must agree. Your ungentlemanly behavior toward Scrapper is something I find inexplicable.

I was paying attention from the start. For what it's worth, in my opinion Rotara is one of the good guys, but although I understand it, I agree that the behavior is very ungentlemanly...

Edit: ...and uncalled for.

wudidiz  posted on  2008-08-17   15:47:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#49)

She's no lady. She's a Zbig shill that has no answers for America, only contempt for Israel. Loser.

FWIW, I held back. ;-)

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-17   18:33:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Rotara, wudidiz, Original_Intent (#50) (Edited)

She's no lady. She's a Zbig shill that has no answers for America, only contempt for Israel. Loser.

FWIW, I held back. ;-)

Rotara, you are such a boorish ignorant ill-informed cartoonesque moron that words cannot properly describe you.

FWIW, I held back. ;-)

a. when have I "shilled" for Zbig? Just because I don't listen to Genesis Network or read Hal Lindsey fiction, that hardly makes me a Zhib shill by default.

b. of course I've given answers for America - they are not flashy impractical recommendations like what others have said when they harkened back to the American Revolution. Nonetheless my ideas if implemented by all US voters would reap very positive results for America.

For example, we voters must impose our own version of term limits for congresscritters to deflect the deleterious influence of lobby groups - a continual revolving door bringing fresh new faces of critters every 8 years would lessen the opportunity of lobbyists getting their tentacles into elected politicians who are supposed to serve us not them. Ergo, I have always advocated that we should always vote against the incumbent.

Secondly we need to pressure our critters to pass legislation that would prohibit dual citizens from serving in an policy level position with the US government. This would send a message that only unhyphenated Americans without split loyalties need to work in our government.

Thirdly the Israel Lobby needs to be required to register as a foreign lobby group - the legislation is in place, it just needs to be implemented. A foreign lobby group registration would not only make clear to prospective contributors that Israel is a separate nation and government from America but it would also disallow tax deductible donations for US citizens. There would be no financial incentive for US citizens to donate as exists today if the Israel Lobby was properly registered. The Israel Lobby is the #2 ranked lobby group in DC. It follows the AARP. The goals of senior citizens are not what is killing America today re: wasted American blood and treasure in a foreign war and occupation. Otoh, the Israel Lobby's goals are.

Fourthly we need to pressure federal politicians to end foreign aid except in response to natural events like earthquakes, etc. Wasting US tax $'s abroad to bribe Third Word thugs and keep the First World nation of Israel financially afloat has zero to do with taking care of American citizens and America's infra structure and sovereignity needs stateside, which is the federal government's mandate. If it takes a while to get this foreign aid black hole of waste changed 100% to our satisfaction, we can get the ball rolling by enlisting pro-constitution legal organizations to make a legal challenge to the US government giving taxpayer support to foreign nation-states that have theocratic aspects - as in the case of Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia - which are in direct conflict with US Constitutional principles specifically the Constitutional Amendment mandating freedom of religion. Right off the bat, $3 -$5 Billion annual foreign aid to Israel would be stopped and would be re-directed to America for Americans instead, and as it should be, if the lawsuit were judged in the US constitutional legal advocates' favor.

Those are places I'd start - in order to win the big battles often it starts with winning small skirmishes and building on those winnings - ground floor up philosophy, if you will.

c. as for Israel, my primary concerns revolve around the well documented issue of Israel and Israel's advocates meddling and compromising the US government for the sole purpose of having our government put Israel's interests first, which causes America's best interests to take a secondary priority and worse putting Israel's interests first actually threatens America's best interests.

In my opinion, the single greatest threat to America's future survival is our misguided ME foreign policy. This disastrous AmericaLast foreign policy is bleeding American blood and treasure in Iraq to a point where America is on its knees. And this AmericaLast foreign policy would most certainly spell America's demise if it led us to attack Iran for Israel's benefit or if we provided logistic, military, financial support to Israel for its attack on Iran.

Open borders and outsourced jobs and industry and abortion on demand pale in comparison to the deadly - and literally so - consequences of the course we are have been on since the LBJ Administration - in regards to our foreign entanglement with Israel - a nation with whom we have no mutual defense treaty because Israel pointedly refuses to sign one and put Israeli blood or treasure at risk for America's security.

If supporting Israel brought America and Americans benefit, perhaps such support could be justified at some level. But Israel is not a strategic asset in the ME nor does it offer resources we need. If anything opening up diplomacy and trade with Iran might be in America's best interests. Israel prevents America from forming any type of relationship with Iran other than one involving war.

My secondary concern and this is only because my government is currently tied to the hip of Israel is related to Israel's thuggish behavior of the Palestinians, which reflects exceedingly poorly on America and causes us - yes,us as in American unhyphenated citizens - deadly blow back consequences.

Fyi, OBL's #1 stated grievance and confirmed by Michael Scheuer, the CIA's own former house resident expert on OBL and the Al Quaeda organization and the best recruiting tool for the aforementioned, is America's unqualified support for Israel in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

In terms of your accusation that I only have "contempt" for Israel. Are you kidding? Contempt? Ha! That remark demonstrates how ill-informed and poorly read you are and especially with regards to postings on this board.

I have stated several times on this board that I admire Israel specifically for the way the Israel government always serves the best interests of Israel and without fail put Israelis first. In fact I have remarked that I wish that our American government would do the same for its citizenry and nation as Israel's government does for Israel and Israelis.

Any more clarification your addled brain needs, Rotara, in terms of the political positions I really have as opposed to what you wrongly think I have?

Btw, Rotara, I am a lady and I'm a very intelligent lady at that, your opposing opinion notwithstanding.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-08-17   21:43:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: scrapper2 (#54)

I am a lady and I'm very intelligent lady at that.

Could we have a grade transcript from PG school and a note from your Mother?????

Just kiddin. Stop throwing things. Geeezzzz.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-08-17   21:53:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 55.

#58. To: Cynicom (#55)

Stop throwing things. Geeezzzz.

I'm defending myself against a crazed headcase who makes hateful remarks to me and about me and presents deliberate mis-representations about my political positions.

Are you saying I should not fight back, that I should ignore or turn the other cheek to insults and lies?

Maybe that philosophy works for you. It doesn't for me.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-08-17 22:21:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

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