[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Visualizing The Number Of Farms In Each US State

Let her cry

The Secret Version of the Bible You’re Never Taught - Secret History

Rocker defames Charlie Kirk threatens free speech

Paramount Has a $1.5 Billion South Park Problem

European Warmongers Angry That Trump Did Not Buy Into the ‘Drone Attack in Poland’

Grassley Unveils Declassified Documents From FBI's Alleged 'Political Hit Job' On Trump

2 In 5 Young Adults Are Taking On Debt For Social Image, To Impress Peers, Study Finds

Visualizing Global Gold Production By Region

RFK Jr. About to DROP the Tylenol–Autism BOMBSHELL & Trump tweets cryptic vaccine message

Elon Musk Delivers Stunning Remarks At Historic UK March

Something BIG is happening (One Assassination Changed Everything)

The Truth About This Piece Of Sh*t

Breaking: 18,000 Epstein emails just dropped.

Memphis: FOUR CHILDREN shot inside a home (National Guard Inbound)

Elon Musk gives CHILLING WARNING after Charlie Kirk's DEATH...

ActBlue Lawyers Subpoenaed As House GOP Investigation Into Donor Fraud Intensifies

Cash Jordan: Gangs EMPTY Chicago Plaza... as Mayor's "LET THEM LOOT" Plan IMPLODES

Trump to send troops to Memphis

Who really commands China’s military? (Xi Jinping on his way out)

Ghee: Is It Better Than Butter?

What Is Butyric Acid? 6 Benefits (Dr Horse says eat butter, not margarine!)

Illegal Alien Released by Biden Admin Beheads Motel Manager In Dallas,

Israel Wants to Unite Itself by Breaking the World -

Leavitt Castigates Journalists To Their Faces Over Lack Of Iryna Zarutska Killing Coverage

Aussie Students Spend The Most Time In School, Polish Kids The Least

Tyler Robinson, 22, Named As Suspect In Charlie Kirk Assassination

How They Control the World and Their Secret Weapon

Newmont Pulls Out of Canada, Delists TSX

Eva Vlaardingerbroek's Warning: Elites Plan to Make Humans Immortal in the Cloud


(s)Elections
See other (s)Elections Articles

Title: Super-amazing: McCain POW Story Lifted from Solzhenitsyn
Source: AOL
URL Source: http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en ... dden=true&filterUnhidden=false
Published: Aug 19, 2008
Author: Various
Post Date: 2008-08-19 15:14:57 by a vast rightwing conspirator
Keywords: None
Views: 237
Comments: 12

"Cross in the Dirt" story stolen from Solzhenitsyn

 
by rickrocket Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:32:42 AM PDT
 

I was watching the forum last night and decided that since I hadn't eaten yet, I would try to listen to John McCain speak.  I was doing OK with the "my friends" and the evil chuckle when I heard him talk about his POW story of the cross in the dirt.  That was when I couldn't take it anymore.

 

It just sounded so fake and so contrived, so I did a little research about it.  Someone on here said it sounded like a scene from Ben-Hur, so I did a google search about Ben-Hur and cross in the sand and such.  No dice.  But I searched around a little bit more and here is what I found.  A story about Alexander Solzhenitsyn from his times in the Soviet Gulags.

 

Along with other prisoners, he worked in the fields day after day, in rain and sun, during summer and winter. His life appeared to be nothing more than backbreaking labor and slow starvation. The intense suffering reduced him to a state of despair.

 

On one particular day, the hopelessness of his situation became too much for him. He saw no reason to continue his struggle, no reason to keep on living. His life made no difference in the world. So he gave up.

 

Leaving his shovel on the ground, he slowly walked to a crude bench and sat down. He knew that at any moment a guard would order him to stand up, and when he failed to respond, the guard would beat him to death, probably with his own shovel. He had seen it happen to other prisoners.

 

As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly he looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him. The man said nothing. Instead, he used a stick to trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work.

 

As Solzhenitsyn stared at the Cross drawn in the dirt his entire perspective changed. He knew he was only one man against the all-powerful Soviet empire. Yet he knew there was something greater than the evil he saw in the prison camp, something greater than the Soviet Union.  He knew that hope for all people was represented by that simple Cross. Through the power of the Cross, anything was possible.

 

Solzhenitsyn slowly rose to his feet, picked up his shovel, and went back to work. Outwardly, nothing had changed. Inside, he had received hope.

 

[From Luke Veronis, "The Sign of the Cross"; Communion, issue 8, Pascha 1997.]

 

So, it is very interesting that Mr. Solzhenitsyn and Mr. McCain had the same Christian guard experience.  Maybe the Soviet guard and the Vietcong guard were trained by the same Christian/Communist person.  Or maybe it is all just a made up story.  Somehow I doubt that Alexander Solzhenitsyn heard John McCain's story and copied it.

 

UPDATE:  This story was actually excerpted from "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, which was definitely written before John McCain's books.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: All (#0)

McCain told the cross story last Sunday at that 'faith' forum. There were thousands weeping, young virgins fainting, stage lights exploding... And, it turns out, it was all a fake. The only way he can escape a 'fraud' charge would be for him to claim that his age causes him to often confuse reality or his own past with the stuff he reads in books.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-08-19   15:17:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#0)

Good stuff - thanks.

Lod  posted on  2008-08-19   15:18:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#1) (Edited)

This is in the same class as Hillary's story about dodging bullets in Sarajevo, or Al Gore's stories about inventing the internet and cleaning up Love Canal.

The only way he can escape a 'fraud' charge would be for him to claim that his age causes him to often confuse reality or his own past with the stuff he reads in books

That means he's either a pathological liar or senile. Either way, he's unfit to be President.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-08-19   15:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#3) (Edited)

Here we go, from the John McCain for Prez site:

______________________________________
Smears the Left Can Fight For

In the least credible and most vicious corner of the internet, liberal bloggers at the Daily Kos are accusing John McCain of plagiarizing from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. The story Solzhenitsyn told was of a prisoner who drew a cross in the dirt in a Soviet Gulag. McCain's story is of a guard who drew a cross in the dirt in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp.

The only similarity between the two stories is a cross in the dirt, but it is hardly an unlikely coincidence that there were practicing Christians in both Russia and Vietnam, or that in the prisons of those two Communist countries the only crosses to be found were etched in the dirt, as easily disappeared as the Christians who drew them.

But those desperate to discredit Senator McCain's record will have to impugn his fellow prisoners as well. Orson Swindle, who was held as a prisoner of war along with McCain, tells the McCain Report that he heard this particular story from McCain "when we first moved in together." That was in the summer of 1971, Swindle said, though "time blurred" and he couldn't be sure. He said it was some time around then that the Vietnamese moved all "36 troublemakers" into the same quarters, where they "talked about everything under the sun."

It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others. John McCain has often said he witnessed a thousand acts of bravery while he was imprisoned, and though not every one has been submitted into the public record, they are remembered by the men who were there (one such only recently reported by Karl Rove though it escaped mention in any of Senator McCain's books). But as Swindle said, this is a "desperate group of people trying to make something out of nothing."
_____________________________

Note the excellent rebuttal above. McCain clearly did not plagiarized Solzhenitsyn because his story happened in Vietnam while Solzhenitsyn's took place in Russia. See the difference? They are COMPLETELY different story. Vietnam... Russia. Different places.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-08-19   15:37:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#4)

Orson Swindle

With a name like that, he should definitely consider a career in politics.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-08-19   15:39:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#0)

It has a much greater chance of not being fraudulent than anything Martin Luther King wrote.

“All I have to do is to raise my voice and tell them that they are not sufficiently liberal.” -- Peter Verkhovensky, The Devils

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-19   15:55:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Tauzero (#6)

Hmmm... how would McCain compare vs. Baron Munchhausen?

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2008-08-19   15:58:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#1)

David Hackworth, a retired Army colonel with five years' distinguished service in Vietnam who is a frequent commentator on military affairs on network television, is a longtime critic of McCain. He tells Insight that McCain's actions during the Senate Select Committee hearings were a "flash point" with a lot of veterans. "McCain should turn off his handlers," says Hackworth, "because he's presenting himself in a very poor light. I have read hundreds of letters and e-mails from members of the military and there's no question that there is a keen divide when it comes to McCain. There are many who challenge his conduct when he was a POW."

In 1991, explains Hackworth, "I interviewed Col. Bui Tin in Hanoi, who was presented to me as their authority on POW/MIA issues. In the course of the interview Tin told me that during the war he was involved in the imprisonment of American POWs. When I questioned him further he said that John McCain was a `special prisoner.' Tin later told other POWs that McCain never was tortured. So when McCain embraced Tin during the hearings it seemed to some Vietnam vets to confirm the reports they had heard, and it really angered a lot of people. It was no secret that McCain had admitted to giving information to the enemy. In fact, McCain was given the Silver Star for `conspicuous gallantry' for the time period of 27 Oct. to 8 Dec. 1967 -- one day after he was shot down and admits to having given information to the enemy. McCain is a survivor, not a hero, and I don't think anyone in the history of our nation has been awarded such high military awards for dealing with the enemy."

Charles Bates, director of Veterans for Government Accountability, a government watchdog group, tells Insight that "during a three-day seminar on the Vietnam War at the Center for Vietnam War Studies at Texas Tech University, I and another POW activist, Joe Jordan, spoke to Bui Tin about McCain's treatment in Hanoi. Tin said, `No, McCain was never tortured. He was too important. We called him the prince. He received special treatment.'"

The passion is strong among these veterans, and Bates gives no quarter: "When Tin testified at the 1992 hearings," he says, "McCain ran down to the floor and threw his arms around this guy. Everyone knew that this was the guy that had reportedly tortured him. Try and imagine someone from the Bataan death march throwing his arms around his captor. You can't. So this is why there is concern among veterans that he really may have collaborated with the enemy. I And there appears to be evidence that he did, including his own admissions in the May 14, 1973, U.S. News & World Report":

findarticles.com/p/articl...is_12_16/ai_61487324/pg_1

robnoel  posted on  2008-08-19   15:59:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#3)

That means he's either a pathological liar or senile. Either way, he's unfit to be President.

Well, the first attribute seems to have become a prerequisite for being seriously considered Presidential material by either of the 2 fraud parties.

The second attribute - I would agree - is not useful, so that's why I believe the GOP is throwing the 2008 Pres election by picking senile McCain as its Pres candidate, who has zero elocution skills as well as zero people skills per what older Ronald Reagan brought to the table.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-08-19   16:00:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: robnoel, all (#8)

Why Vietnam Vets Split on McCain.

From:
Insight on the News
Date:
March 27, 2000
Author:
O'Meara, Kelly Patricia
More results for:
McCain and Col. Bui Tin

Vietnam vets are divided on John McCain's status as a hero, citing incongruities in his account of his time as a POW and his actions in Congress concerning POWs/MIAs.

It's a war zone out there for GOP presidential candidate John McCain. While he has worked desperately to broaden his support among Democrats and independents, trouble has been brewing within his core constituency. Among the huge number of voting veterans there is a deep divide concerning whether McCain is the hero he is proclaimed to be or something else.

Not the least of the issues that have military groups spitting mad is the Arizona senator's voting record on veterans' issues. Thomas Burch is a Washington attorney and chairman of the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition, a federation of 102 veterans' groups. Burch tells Insight, "McCain forgot the veterans, and you don't have to search too hard to see where he's dropped the ball." For instance, "McCain would not cosponsor the 1984 Agent Orange Bill, the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, the 1996 Missing Persons Personnel Act, the 1998 Persian Gulf Health Care Act or the 1999 Bring Them Home Alive Bill. He did cosponsor the 1991 Omnibus Agent Orange Bill, but at that point there was no struggle, it was a done deal. Back in the 1980s when we really needed him he wasn't there."

But Burch says it was McCain's conduct during 1992 hearings of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs that turned many Vietnam War veterans against him. "When they held the hearings, it was McCain who handled the family members in a very rough manner, reducing one woman to tears. There are a lot of folks who compared him to Jane Fonda after he hugged Bui Tin, a former North Vietnamese army officer and interrogator/torturer of American prisoners of war, or POWs, who testified at the hearings. Symbolically, it's like seeing Fonda sitting on the antiaircraft gun. If you think that these people are still holding some of our men, as many of these families do, that's not the kind of photo that's going to endear you to him. I don't care what his reason was for doing it. It was an outrage."

Although McCain's hostile behavior toward the family members of POWs/MIAs is well-known among veterans, vet activists also have taken their share of the senator's wrath. "Whenever you cross McCain," says Burch, "he gets very ugly. One of his people, Orson Swindle, federal trade commissioner and one of the longest-held POWs, called me from his office and threatened to `destroy me' because I had come out in support of George Bush in South Carolina. That's tough treatment from a fellow Vietnam veteran."

David Hackworth, a retired Army colonel with five years' distinguished service in Vietnam who is a frequent commentator on military affairs on network television, is a longtime critic of McCain. He tells Insight that McCain's actions during the Senate Select Committee hearings were a "flash point" with a lot of veterans. "McCain should turn off his handlers," says Hackworth, "because he's presenting himself in a very poor light. I have read hundreds of letters and e-mails from members of the military and there's no question that there is a keen divide when it comes to McCain. There are many who challenge his conduct when he was a POW."

In 1991, explains Hackworth, "I interviewed Col. Bui Tin in Hanoi, who was presented to me as their authority on POW/MIA issues. In the course of the interview Tin told me that during the war he was involved in the imprisonment of American POWs. When I questioned him further he said that John McCain was a `special prisoner.' Tin later told other POWs that McCain never was tortured. So when McCain embraced Tin during the hearings it seemed to some Vietnam vets to confirm the reports they had heard, and it really angered a lot of people. It was no secret that McCain had admitted to giving information to the enemy. In fact, McCain was given the Silver Star for `conspicuous gallantry' for the time period of 27 Oct. to 8 Dec. 1967 -- one day after he was shot down and admits to having given information to the enemy. McCain is a survivor, not a hero, and I don't think anyone in the history of our nation has been awarded such high military awards for dealing with the enemy."

Charles Bates, director of Veterans for Government Accountability, a government watchdog group, tells Insight that "during a three-day seminar on the Vietnam War at the Center for Vietnam War Studies at Texas Tech University, I and another POW activist, Joe Jordan, spoke to Bui Tin about McCain's treatment in Hanoi. Tin said, `No, McCain was never tortured. He was too important. We called him the prince. He received special treatment.'"

The passion is strong among these veterans, and Bates gives no quarter: "When Tin testified at the 1992 hearings," he says, "McCain ran down to the floor and threw his arms around this guy. Everyone knew that this was the guy that had reportedly tortured him. Try and imagine someone from the Bataan death march throwing his arms around his captor. You can't. So this is why there is concern among veterans that he really may have collaborated with the enemy. I And there appears to be evidence that he did, including his own admissions in the May 14, 1973, U.S. News & World Report":

"O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital," reported the then recently returned POW in that article in U.S. News. "I guess the thing is," says Bates, "you have to think that if he's elected president and this did happen, he could be open to blackmail."

To other veterans any such interpretation is outrageous -- and remember that vets tend to split 50-50 on McCain. Joe Schlatter, who served as the chief of the Defense Intelligence Agency Special Office for Prisoners of War and Missing in Action, tells Insight that activist veteran groups have focused on three issues against the senator. "First," says Schlatter, "they argue that not all American POWs were released and McCain has refused to sign up on the `live' POW theory. They're angry because he supports President Clinton's efforts to normalize relations with the Vietnamese, and they're angry because McCain went after those people who he thought were making money off the POW/MIA issue."

Schlatter insists, "If you were alive in captivity in 1973, you came home. There is no conspiracy to cover this up. There are as many different veterans' votes as there are veterans. This is just a sideshow distracting from the real issues. If the other POWs don't care about how John McCain got his medals, why should I?"

And many of the former POWs with whom Insight spoke for this survey take great offense at the attacks on McCain. Mike McGrath, a retired Navy pilot and former POW, sees McCain's more outspoken critics as "activists who play on your emotions on an issue that no one can prove. The story should be about the cottage industry of POW/MIA activists and how John McCain got in the way of their political agenda. They don't want to give up this way of life and, if you say there aren't any more POWs over in Vietnam, it destroys what they're doing. The questions these guys bring up aren't worth answering."

Is it important for the American people to know what information a presidential hopeful may have provided to the enemy in return for medical care or under torture? Does that have any connection to the support of normalization of relations with Vietnam? "No," says McGrath. "Vietnam is just another country that we're trying to reestablish relations with. It's no different than what we have with Russia or China. Every one of the 661 POWs violated the code of conduct by giving information beyond name, rank and serial number. Does that mean that we're all traitors? If the Vietnamese said that they didn't torture John McCain, they are lying. What do you expect -- they're Communists."

Is it likely that the Communist government is lying about the treatment McCain received while he was their prisoner? This is one of the issues that so deeply have divided Vietnam veterans and leave many wondering why McCain has been so eager to reestablish ties with a government that has called him a liar. According to McGrath, "If anyone has any doubts about the treatment McCain received, they can ask his roommates -- the men who nursed him back to health and feared for his life. No one who lived with or near him has anything bad to say about him."

But not all of the POWs agree about McCain, and those who have come out against him are labeled as "crazies" by the POWs who support him.

McGrath suggests McCain could put all this ugliness to rest by requesting that the transcripts of his postcaptivity debriefing be released. Those transcripts long have been classified, but in 1996 Republican Sen. Robert Smith of New Hampshire moved legislation through Congress effectively making the portions of the debriefings that dealt with other military personnel still unaccounted for available for review. In 1999 Smith managed further to modify the legislation to make it retroactive for the Cold War, Korean and Vietnam debriefings concerning men left behind. The legislation sailed through despite attempts by those no one would name to prevent declassification. The McCain campaign has not returned Insight's calls to ask about these matters.

According to one Capitol Hill insider, "The chances of anyone actually seeing these records is a million-to-one, but if John McCain requested his records I'm sure they'd release them to him." To date that request has not been made. There also appears to be no chance of releasing any records held by the Vietnamese. According to Bill Bell, former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs, "In May of 1993 I attended a meeting in Hanoi with John McCain, Pete Peterson, U.S. ambassador to Vietnam and ex-POW. McCain and Peterson were very interested in getting an agreement from the Vietnamese that the records of the former POWs would never be made public."

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-08-19   16:18:02 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Jethro Tull (#10) (Edited)

McGrath suggests McCain could put all this ugliness to rest by requesting that the transcripts of his postcaptivity debriefing be released. Those transcripts long have been classified, but in 1996 Republican Sen. Robert Smith of New Hampshire moved legislation through Congress effectively making the portions of the debriefings that dealt with other military personnel still unaccounted for available for review. In 1999 Smith managed further to modify the legislation to make it retroactive for the Cold War, Korean and Vietnam debriefings concerning men left behind. The legislation sailed through despite attempts by those no one would name to prevent declassification. The McCain campaign has not returned Insight's calls to ask about these matters.

According to one Capitol Hill insider, "The chances of anyone actually seeing these records is a million-to-one, but if John McCain requested his records I'm sure they'd release them to him." To date that request has not been made. There also appears to be no chance of releasing any records held by the Vietnamese. According to Bill Bell, former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs, "In May of 1993 I attended a meeting in Hanoi with John McCain, Pete Peterson, U.S. ambassador to Vietnam and ex-POW. McCain and Peterson were very interested in getting an agreement from the Vietnamese that the records of the former POWs would never be made public."

Fu*k you juan mcQuisling, you lying, traitorous, scoundrel, low life Globalist POS.

Wake UP people! Throw OFF your chains and TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY while we still maybe can!! This is the 11th hour and it's later than you think!



"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-19   16:33:00 ET  (4 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: scrapper2 (#9)

The second attribute - I would agree - is not useful, so that's why I believe the GOP is throwing the 2008 Pres election by picking senile McCain as its Pres candidate, who has zero elocution skills as well as zero people skills per what older Ronald Reagan brought to the table.

Unless, rather than "throwing" it, they're merely fronting someone they know can win but won't successfully serve out the term, with a sidekick who can't win in the #1 slot but who will get the replacement job...

Government blows and that which governs least blows least...

Axenolith  posted on  2008-08-20   2:41:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]