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Title: WHAT'S WITH THIS GUY?
Source: Life
URL Source: http://none
Published: Aug 27, 2008
Author: Me
Post Date: 2008-08-27 15:25:40 by iconoclast
Keywords: Division, Us vs Them, Healing
Views: 1165
Comments: 62

Ladies and gents, I feel the urge this afternoon to elaborate a bit on factors underlying my full throated, heart felt support of Barack Obama, so often scorned here. I fully realize it violates one of my favorite earthy propositions (Henry Ford II's "never apologize, never explain").

Let me first say that I fully understand a goodly amount of the revulsion at the prospect of a black President. Many of my fellow Americans and good friends have been turned off for decades by an irritating exposure to welfare queens, affirmative action, and the downward spiral of the black underclass. I feel your pain, sincerely. But if I may, and without condescension, I venture to suggest that many here are viewing the 21st century American racial scene "through a glass darkly".

Let me quickly add that I also appreciate that much of the revulsion arises from the leftist philosophy that taints all Democrats. And, I have two things to say about that. One, at least the Democrats remain true to their principles as contrasted to the abysmal abandonment of anything resembling conservatism by the Republicans. Second, and I grant you this is just my opinion, Obama is a decidedly moderate left-winger.

I have not come to my circa 2008 conclusions via any measure of "white guilt", a charge often made at me or about me in this forum. Also, I do not arrive at them based on some inflated impression of my own "insights". They are simply based on my own life experiences and my observation of American history.

First, the experiences. I was born, and have spent almost all my life, in what has become a middle America rust-belt city .... just forty years ago it was home base for five Fortune 500 companies. It now has one(?), zero (?) .. (it's not a fun thing to watch and keep score on). GWB and his minions certainly did not solely bring this about but, again IMHO, they quite possibly have applied the a death blow to the middle class and to American industry (never mind sovereignty, solvency, and worldwide respect). This morning's paper carried a list of the ten U.S. cities with lowest median household income. Yeppers, we made it.

My Dad was a UAW member, not a zealot, but one of the faceless mass that made up that association. The father of one of my best friends (Jim) in high school and college and was a Christian immigrant from Lebanon (I joked that my Dad immigrated from Tennessee). Jim's Dad and mine retired from the Chevy transmission plant in Toledo. We each got the importance of education lectured into us. Jim and I invested in a Christmas tree lot one year while we were in college. We both later started separate small businesses. He became a millionaire but died in a tragic auto accident out on Rt. 23. I emerged solvent but not wealthy from my twenty-year venture.

Jim went to Catholic schools, I to public. Our community has long been ethnic blue-collar.... Poles, Germans, Hungarians, Blacks, Mexicans, Arabs and Heinz 57 varieties like me. In grade school I developed a close friendship with a Black kid from two districts away. He occasionally came all the way over to my house to play backyard basketball. Later we went to high school and he played quarterback behind me. He was killed a couple years after high school. The more things change, the more they stay the same. In that same high school I had a few black classmates in my bookish classes (tracking was well established then) but i had a random sample of the population in homeroom. gym class, etc., so I got a broad exposure. Oh sure, I had some scrapes with black kids but never enough to shake me from my conviction that there are good folk and bad apples in every grouping or class of people.

In my adult years, as happenstance would have it, I made the acquaintance of a black guy in my golf league who later became my league partner (he's a lot of fun and a damned good golfer). An attorney, he also later represented me on several occasions. I have had black employees including managers and, late in my business career had the privilege of working under a an outstanding black executive .... one of the two best leaders I have personally encountered in my many working years. My kids had some black teachers, more good ones than bad (similar to the apocryphal little girl who, when she was good, was very, very good but when she was bad she was horrid ).

The history part? I attribute much of the long standing racial bad blood partly to historical circumstance (a divided nation for many decades). But it's at least equally attributable to well meaning(?) but not very intelligent politicians,

Number one, Lincoln. We are the only western nation on earth that resorted to a bloody internecine war to eliminate slavery. Skipping over the Klan and Jim Crow all the way to LBJ, the idiot (what is it about Texas pols?) that set integration back almost a hundred years and destroyed black family structure with his Great Society. This wonderful system of rewarding sloth and immorality brought a couple of previous decades of progress to a screeching halt and slowly but surely turned black communities into hellish social cesspools led by poverty pimps. This was followed by our long period of affirmative action that was encouraged by one party and abetted by the other. Thinking people of all hues recognize this nonsense as being as wrong-headed as other such schemes like forced housing integration and bussing to schools.

Well this turned out to be a bit of a wandering diatribe but may it provide a few clues (as opposed to rationalizations) as to my populist attitudes and my chosen screen name. At any rate, as a man once said, "that's my story (or a little part of it) and I'm stickin' to it".

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#1. To: iconoclast (#0)

Second, and I grant you this is just my opinion, Obama is a decidedly moderate left-winger.


FOFLOLROFLMAO

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-27   15:30:57 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: iconoclast (#0)

Ico, what will O do that any other selection wouldn't?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-08-27   15:37:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: iconoclast (#0)

LBJ, the idiot (what is it about Texas pols?) that set integration back almost a hundred years and destroyed black family structure with his Great Society. This wonderful system of rewarding sloth and immorality brought a couple of previous decades of progress to a screeching halt and slowly but surely turned black communities into hellish social cesspools led by poverty pimps. This was followed by our long period of affirmative action that was encouraged by one party and abetted by the other

BHO is 100% on board the affirmative action and "Greate Society" welfare bandwagon. If you're against these things and support Obama, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-08-27   15:39:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: iconoclast (#0)

I'm against Hussein Obama, first and foremost, because he's an un-American marxist-lite doofus. The fact that he is a mulatto and tries to "identify" himself with American blacks is an open-door for me to walk through and damn him for his arrogance. If he wants to make race an issue, I'll give it back to him in spades.

“The best and first guarantor of our neutrality and our independent existence is the defensive will of the people…and the proverbial marksmanship of the Swiss shooter. Each soldier a good marksman! Each shot a hit!”
-Schweizerische Schutzenseitunt (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941

X-15  posted on  2008-08-27   16:04:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Jethro Tull (#2)

Forwarded Email (I'm a GOA/JPFO guy myself)

An Urgent Message From The NRA

NRA 1-877-672-4680
www.nra.org
Barack Obama's Ten Point Plan To "Change" The Second Amendment
1. Ban use of firearms for home defense.
2. Pass Federal laws eliminating your Right-To-Carry.
3. Ban the manufacture,sale and possession of handguns.
4. Close down 90% of the gun shops in America.
5. Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.
6. Increase federal taxes on gun and ammunition by 500 percent.
7. Restore voting rights for five million criminals including those who have been convicted of using a gun to commit a violent crime.
8. Expand the Clinton semit-auto ban to include millions more firearms.
9. Mandate a government-issued license to purchase a firearm.
10. Appoint judges to the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal judiciary who share his views on the Second Amendment.

What's sad is that this is true and the fear this instills in the sheeple is palpable.

Assuming one is too ignorant or stooooopid to know that this is a selection process which has nothing to do with We The People, but everything to do with the Globalist enemies of America - and therefore people 'vote for what they see' - then you really would have to be a dilled pecker to vote for the "D" wing of the National Party. His record is that of a gun grabbing, racist, Marxist, baby-butchering elitist gangster.

What a charade!! ;-)

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2008-08-27   16:07:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: iconoclast, Jethro Tull, Rupert_Pupkin (#0)

When I was about 5, I was riding in the car with my folks, and we stopped at the light next to a bus.

"Look! That bus driver is a woman!" I observed to my parents.

They were ever so silently pleased that I had not observed she was black.

The day care and kindergarten I attended was half-black. But it was a nice area. My father had a paper route through there -- this was back in the day when paperboys still carried money and collected money directly from customers.

My main teacher then was a black woman. What little I can remember about her, I remember fondly. She gave me back rubs at nap time. She called me "John John", as I reminded her of JFK.

Unfortunately, a clearer memory is of an older boy. He had some behavioral problems. My egalitarian teachers thought perhaps it would be a good idea to pair us up, that I might rub off on him. To my parents they suggested a play date, and they agreed. Once was enough for them.

But not for my teachers. They continued to force an association. Until one day he simply terrorized me. The encouragement was quietly dropped.

Still, then, the incident had no racial aspect for me.

Several years after kindergarten, there was a reunion of sorts of the parents of the center. My parents were not normal for this group, as they were still married (and still are today.)

Today, both the kindergarten and surrounding neighborhood are typical black hell-holes.

One day when I was four, my father received an odd phone call from my teacher. She was frantic.

"Your son can read! What do I do?"

"Let him read," replied my father.

And so I have.

Icon, your nice anecdote follows the same media blueprint for stories about some obscene incident of violence committed by blacks -- that yes, there are good blacks, smart blacks who deplore this behavior. What you leave unstated is the implied leap that the incident has nothing to do with race per se.

But it's a complete non-sequitur. Worse than that really. It is cant.

That's the real campaign slogan. "Yes we cant".

The races are different. Profoundly. And at least partly for biological reasons.

I will say this though: Given blacks' limitations -- and ours, since we're certainly never going to slaughter them or deport them -- I simply have no idea WHAT the hell to do with them, any more than my black teacher had any idea about what to do with me when she discovered I could read.

But whatever reasonable, ethical solution there may be, it will certainly never be based on cant.

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-27   16:41:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Tauzero, Rotara, all (#6)

it's time to fight.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-08-27   16:54:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: iconoclast (#0) (Edited)

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I grant you this is just my opinion, Obama is a decidedly moderate left-winger.

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Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-27   17:35:19 ET  (6 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: iconoclast (#0)

while i disagree with you about voting for the lesser of two evils (and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the race of the candidates), i can understand why you might HOPE that a democrat administration could at least buy us some more time. at any rate, i enjoyed reading about "iconoclast." thanks for sharing with us.

Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com

christine  posted on  2008-08-27   18:49:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Tauzero, Jethro Tull, Rupert_Pupkin (#6)

The races are different. Profoundly. And at least partly for biological reasons.

T, no disagreement from this quarter. But my initial reaction is "so what". I am decidedly "racist" or tribal if you will. In terms of intellect I would put Asians (as a group) at the top. I do not have enough knowledge or exposure to attempt break them down by regions but I'm pretty sure differences do exist. My next "acquainted-with group" would be Jews, followed perhaps by Germans, Brits, other northern Europeans, etc. (Hell, I'm sure all of us could compile their own "guessed-at" list) and yes, Blacks in general would rank quite low (but I have a hunch that there again there would me measurable differences between "tribes" or regions). In short, and again IMO, the biggest problem blacks have in mixed societies is that they carry their "difference" so obviously.

I simply have no idea WHAT the hell to do with them

My mouth simply dropped at this statement. I have no idea of it's implication. I would simply reply that "we ain't in Kansas Eden anymore, Dorothy".

I would, and not facetiously, suggest we start with and end with the golden rule. I am simply left mouth agape and I certainly hope you don't have some thought like identifying "bad" genes and eliminating people on such a basis. One thing for damn sure that we could do is work to (further) reduce government programs that encourage the procreation of the least fit.

That being said, I still don't know quite where you are going with this. I think it inarguable that it is immoral to pre-judge persons based merely on appearance or any other cursory criteria. I look forward to more exchange because I am honestly unclear on just what you are trying convey.

Finally, with respect to your final word being "cant", I can assure you my views are sincere and by no means intended to be or rooted in triteness, sentimentality, or piousness.

Regrettably we have an engagement tonight (I tend to forget them, but my wife never does) so I to have to get out of here. I wouldn't have posted this today had I remembered it the damned thing. I hope we can continue tomorrow.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-27   18:53:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: christine, iconoclast (#9)

while i disagree with you about voting for the lesser of two evils (and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the race of the candidates), i can understand why you might HOPE that a democrat administration could at least buy us some more time. at any rate, i enjoyed reading about "iconoclast." thanks for sharing with us.

Amen, and thank you.

Thanks for explaining our screwed up society.

Hoping that things are leveled out and much better, with the passage of time.

A nation of idiots, ruled by tyrants.

Lod  posted on  2008-08-27   19:48:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: lodwick, JETHRO TULL, christine (#11) (Edited)

Hoping that things are leveled out and much better, with the passage of time.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing...but "hope"..which will buy you a trainride to the nearest concentration camp. Hope my ass. All these years we've hoped, and continued down the toilet towards the sewer.

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx

"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." © IndieTx

IndieTX  posted on  2008-08-27   21:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: iconoclast (#0)

He's a puppet. He'll just do what he's told. He's put there as a lame representative to please the stupid masses.

Get with the program.


"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman) in everlasting ignorance that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer

wudidiz  posted on  2008-08-27   22:01:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: IndieTX (#12) (Edited)

The asshats who are here and who have left, who still believe in the political system, are hopeless. I'm walking past them all from this day forward.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-08-27   22:10:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: iconoclast (#10)

One thing for damn sure that we could do is work to (further) reduce government programs that encourage the procreation of the least fit.

Better clear that with Obummer. Sounds like you will be working at cross purposes.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-27   22:13:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: iconoclast (#10)

But my initial reaction is "so what"

The Wichita Massacre is what. Channon Christian and Chris Newsome are what.

"we ain't in Kansas Eden anymore, Dorothy".

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

I mean three things.

1) I am fed up.

2) I am open to suggestions.

3) My choices are mine to make; the conscience I will be ruled by is my own.

I would, and not facetiously, suggest we start with and end with the golden rule.

Moral rules are typically justified by their teleological consequences. Their function is teleological; they exist because they promote adaptive social behavior.

The golden rule fails, however much we might like it to succeed.

The problem is not, alas, that blacks are immoral, or less pejoratively differently moraled, i.e. having a different set of rules they would like to see universalized. If two people have different values, but both have a very high regard for universalizing rules, they may be able to work together in good faith on a consistent synthesis. This, I think, is multiculturalism in the good sense.

An abysmal number of blacks are simply amoral. There is simply no lever to be grasped there besides their egoistic self-interest. Carrot and stick.

And this is at least partly biological.

I think it inarguable that it is immoral to pre-judge persons based merely on appearance or any other cursory criteria.

People sort and classify all the time. It is unavoidable. The question is whether it will be done correctly and which kinds of classification errors you are willing to tolerate. The question will be settled by how adaptive the rule is.

If a classification is based on experience, it is post-judice.

I would never judge a person based solely on appearance. But I might very well choose to merely avoid or exclude them on that or another basis.

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   1:30:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: James Deffenbach (#15)

Sounds like you will be working at cross purposes.

I have no more to learn about cross purposes after 8 years of GWB.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   11:36:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: iconoclast (#17)

I have no more to learn about cross purposes after 8 years of GWB.

Uh huh. If I were you I wouldn't wait for that hero that you tout on here all day every day to reduce or end any government entitlement program. At least you shouldn't stand on one foot and hold your breath while you wait on it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   12:06:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Tauzero (#16)

First let me say that I find your comments thoughtful and concerned and I appreciate that.

The golden rule fails, however much we might like it to succeed.

At the risk of coming across as simplistic or naive,

I find it works when I try it.

I fear it has gone the way of responsible representative government and common sense for lack of application.

The problem is not, alas, that blacks are immoral, or less pejoratively differently moraled, i.e. having a different set of rules they would like to see universalized. If two people have different values, but both have a very high regard for universalizing rules, they may be able to work together in good faith on a consistent synthesis. This, I think, is multiculturalism in the good sense.

Well said.

And this is at least partly biological.

Certainly a tempting thought, (OTOH) the devil alcohol, temper, and combativeness may be due to the genes in those of us who are Irish. But again, don't go messin with my genes.

I would never judge a person based solely on appearance. But I might very well choose to merely avoid or exclude them on that or another basis.

Inarguable.

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

I find that to be another puzzler. What color are "they", white or black?

Lastly, I offer the following for your consideration.

1) Blacks were dragged over here in chains from an uncivilized environment.

2) During the period of slavery and (a) for many decades following blacks were generally regarded and treated as sub or partially human. There reaction was to master shucking, jiving, damcing and laughing. That represented adapting to western civilization for them. (b) After emancipation a few were Christianized and educated yielding Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Benjamin Banneker, Thomas Jennings, Dr. Daniel Hale Williams, Rebecca Cole ... and on and on.

Imagine, if you will, what our present day outcome might be had we widened path (b) and never followed super highway (a).

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   13:11:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: James Deffenbach (#18)

If I were you I wouldn't wait for that hero that you tout on here all day every day to reduce or end any government entitlement program.

Is that really your major concern at this moment in history?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   13:15:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: iconoclast (#19) (Edited)

I find it works when I try it.

From a behaviorist perspective the distinction between "working together in good faith" via the golden rule vs. carrots and sticks is false, as verbal behavior is just another form of behavior.

It may well often work on an individual basis. But we aren't just individuals. It doesn't address the problem. I do care about the Wichita Massacre, and wish to avoid further instances.

Another problem with the rule is that in interacting with someone according to it, I might change them. Indeed, sometimes that may be the only reason for interacting with them. But I like my values, and don't particularly want them changed, and so, according to the rule, I should respect another person's wish not to be changed. If I do change them, and they later discover this, they may well get angry with me -- and I could hardly blame them.

But even if they acquiesce afterwards, they still might not have agreed had they first been informed of how they would change.

And with someone who is amoral, it is literally impossible to get informed consent on this point.

These are the kinds of reasons why the Federation has a Prime Directive. Brazil tries to practice something similar today with respect to the few remaining primitive tribes. But it is not an option available to us, since it has already been violated.

Certainly a tempting thought

The opposite is even more tempting to a man of conscience. (This should be obvious.)

(OTOH) the devil alcohol, temper, and combativeness may be due to the genes in those of us who are Irish.

Absolutely. And as an American of Irish descent myself I have absolutely no qualms about exploring that.

I find that to be another puzzler.

Diversity negates common grounds that could otherwise be relied upon without mention; articulated rules, typically laws, are erected to navigate the interfaces. Diversity destroys trust. The state fills the vacuum. The resulting laws have all the epistemological problems of other laws.

Diversity is the other Road to Serfdom. (No pun intended.)

Imagine, if you will, what our present day outcome might be had we widened path (b)

That might have been nice.

The problem I pose to you is this: Suppose I am right. What should I do?

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   14:07:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: iconoclast (#17) (Edited)

I have no more to learn about cross purposes after 8 years of GWB

So you hide your head in the sand and ignore all of Obama's faults, just like Bush voters in 2000 ignored all of the warning signs about their candidate after "8 years of Clinton."

That's what the DNC and RNC rely on. Both do pretty much the same thing, but take turns holding office by "blaming" the incumbent in the "opposing" party for doing exactly what they would have done. And voters eat it all up - thinking Bush to be an antidote to Clinton Democrats and Obama an antidote to Bush Republicans. It's all a big scam, and none of it will change until people start walking away from the two party duopoly and start taking independents seriously.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-08-28   14:12:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#22)

In celebration of the elections, I'm dusting off my old VCR tape of "The Prisoner" and watching the "Village" Election episode.

"I am not a number, I am a free man" - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

swarthyguy  posted on  2008-08-28   14:15:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: iconoclast (#20)

Is that really your major concern at this moment in history?

My concern is that either the Marxist loon you support or the fascist loon that some others are supporting will be the next president. And no matter which one of them "wins," America loses. That should be the concern of all Americans.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   15:20:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#22)

Excellent post. It is amazing to me how otherwise intelligent people--or people who seem to be intelligent in other ways and about other things--haven't figured out yet that there is one evil bird of prey with two wings and that they can vote all they want to, but as long as they are voting for one of those wings, the flight plan ain't gonna change.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   15:26:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#22)

So you hide your head in the sand and ignore all of Obama's faults, just like Bush voters in 2000 ignored all of the warning signs about their candidate after "8 years of Clinton."

Actually I voted for the party (R)... same as I had done for the previous 36 years. Never gave a thought about pulling the (D) (I may have voted for PJB in 2000, I honestly don't remember). Most here seem to still be locked into that mindset (i.e, (R) or third party).

Never again for me.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   15:27:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: swarthyguy (#23)

--

I am not a number!


"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-08-28   15:45:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Ferret Mike (#27)

Ages ago, I was lucky enough to be in Texas when a channel ran the original "Secret Agent Man" series, also starring Patrick McGoohan.

Got to tape all of them.

Another gem, and who couldn't love a scriptwriter named Wilfred Gatorex!

swarthyguy  posted on  2008-08-28   15:50:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: swarthyguy (#28)

'Secret Agent' was my favorite series when it ran the first time. I also loved 'The Prisoner,' and would say it has been shown to sadly be more prophetic then I wish would be the case.


"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-08-28   15:56:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Ferret Mike (#29)

Secret Agent was before my time, but one thing I would like to do is to go to that hotel complex in Wales where the Prisoner was filmed. That list just gets longer.

SA was just one intelligent TV show. Very well done. It's aged rather well.

swarthyguy  posted on  2008-08-28   16:01:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Tauzero (#21)

Imagine, if you will, what our present day outcome might be had we widened path (b)

That might have been nice.

Glad to see you gave it a lot of thought.

What should I do?

Considering your fixation on a miraculous "fix" for adults, damned if I know. I take it you've never been to an AA or Al Anon meeting.

I'm going to point back to education. That black executive I alluded to earlier (an educator, BTW) said the only answer to the enigma represented by the black underclass is to place all their children into residential schools (of course, it was not an idea he posted for public consumption). That's right, 365/24/7 with home visits rare and short.

Before everyone has a shit fit about cost pause to consider the cost of incarcerating 30+% of young black males and the cost of mis-raising the thousands of offspring of the females compounded by their rodent-like reproductive rate ... thus recycling and perpetuating the problem.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   16:16:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: iconoclast (#31)

The only thing I see that is 'rodent-like' is you here as you verbally jerk us off with your message of theft and hatred.


"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-08-28   16:31:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: iconoclast (#31)

Glad to see you gave it a lot of thought.

Well it's not like I haven't thought about it before. It very well might have been nice. I just don't see that it has much bearing on the price of white skulls broken like eggs.

Considering your fixation on a miraculous "fix" for adults, damned if I know.

I have no wish to "fix" anybody.

I wish to preserve my race and my culture, both of which I happen to like, and nobody else will carry forward the latter.

I take it you've never been to an AA

Well, my father has. If anything, it made him worse when he tried that. And the statistical aggregates show it's no more effective than self-help anyway.

I'm going to point back to education.

On what evidence? The heads are not improved, but Head Start is still funded.

the only answer to the enigma represented by the black underclass is to place all their children into residential schools (of course, it was not an idea he posted for public consumption). That's right, 365/24/7 with home visits rare and short.

Could be worth a shot. But good luck sticking to the golden rule while you carry it out.

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   16:36:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: iconoclast (#26)

Actually I voted for the party (R)... same as I had done for the previous 36 years. Never gave a thought about pulling the (D) (I may have voted for PJB in 2000, I honestly don't remember). Most here seem to still be locked into that mindset (i.e, (R) or third party).

Never again for me.

There you go. You should vote for the D because there is such a huge difference. Uh huh. Really.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   16:45:34 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Tauzero (#33)

The only rule you believe in is "Do unto others before they do it unto you."

And you lie and distort your claims about what that 'something' they would do to you is.


"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-08-28   16:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: iconoclast (#31)

Before everyone has a shit fit about cost pause to consider the cost of incarcerating 30+% of young black males and the cost of mis-raising the thousands of offspring of the females compounded by their rodent-like reproductive rate ... thus recycling and perpetuating the problem.

Just a quick followup.

A much more humane, less direct alternative to taking children from their mothers would be to deny the franchise to the underclass.

That too would be a hard sell, given the idolization of Democracy, but it would be a relatively easy sell to the underclass. It does not riot over abstract causes, precisely because it is amoral.

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   17:04:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: iconoclast (#31)

That black executive I alluded to earlier (an educator, BTW) said the only answer to the enigma represented by the black underclass is to place all their children into residential schools (of course, it was not an idea he posted for public consumption). That's right, 365/24/7 with home visits rare and short.

Another followup.

Isn't a program like that not too far off from what Oprah is attempting in South Africa? Her school seems to minimize contact with student families.

From what I've read, results so far are, um, mixed.

A program like that might have more success here, as the surrounding society is different.

They say they are for "diversity". What they really are for is slavery.

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   17:34:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Tauzero (#33)

I wish to preserve my race and my culture

Lotsa luck on the first .. I believe the second is quite doable but times a'wastin'!.

Let ethnics have their festivals, dancing, and foods, we can all enjoy them as we here have been doing for years with the Poles, Hungarians, Germans, etc., and then they "melt" back into our culture.

That's the limit on my multiculturalism.

it's no more effective than self-help anyway.

Uhh, that was my point.

I'm going to point back to education.

On what evidence?

On the evidence I presented to you (Carver, etc.). Head Start and such is silly liberalism.

the only answer to the enigma represented by the black underclass is to place all their children into residential schools (of course, it was not an idea he posted for public consumption). That's right, 365/24/7 with home visits rare and short.

Could be worth a shot. But good luck sticking to the golden rule while you carry it out.

It took me a while to convince myself that it could be cost effective, but I ultimately came to see it as genius.

I don't think Chris was talking about herding up kids like Japanese immigrants by goons in Garth Vader garb, confiscations only when court ordered ... seems to me it might take a generation or two, but it's a plan.

Re: the golden rule, I regard as applying to one on one ... the other is a bold broad plan. I make a distinction, logical or not.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   18:15:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Ferret Mike (#32)

The only thing I see that is 'rodent-like' is you here as you verbally jerk us off with your message of theft and hatred.

If jerking off is your thing, go to it.

I presented an imaginative solution expressed to me by one of the gentlest, sharpest black men I've ever known ... and he was dead serious.

The "rodent" was inserted only analogically to point to rabbits, prairie dogs, etc. that reproduce in abundance and and live in "underground ghettos".

No, theft, no hatred in the proposal.

Shorten your fuse.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   18:27:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: iconoclast (#38)

I make a distinction, logical or not.

We are all of us of two minds on the subject, and that's really all that can be said about deontological-teleological tension.

(Well, all of us except the underclass, but nevermind.)

“There’s less than 1 percent of the population of Iowa that is African American. There is probably less than 4 or 5 percent that are minorities. What is in Washington? So look, it goes back to what you start off with, what you’re dealing with,” -- Joe Biden, Oct. 25 2007

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   18:30:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: iconoclast (#39)

I presented an imaginative solution expressed to me by one of the gentlest, sharpest black men I've ever known ... and he was dead serious.

I wonder if this "sharp black man" you refer to ever bothered to read The Law by Frederic Bastiat. Kinda doubt it since he sounds like a socialist who would use other people's money to implement his plans and further his ideas and goals. If you still have contact with him you should do him a favor and mention that little book to him and if he doesn't want to spend any of his own money it is online and free.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   18:36:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: James Deffenbach (#34)

There you go. You should vote for the D because there is such a huge difference. Uh huh. Really.

The worst administration in American history and you don't believe the situation begs for repudiation and rejection?

Really James, I thought more of you.

Do you like football? Go root for you favorite team. Stay away from politics.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   19:35:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: James Deffenbach (#41)

I wonder if this "sharp black man" you refer to ever bothered to read The Law by Frederic Bastiat. Kinda doubt it since he sounds like a socialist who would use other people's money to implement his plans and further his ideas and goals.

His goal benefits society. Really James, your obsession with "socialism" clouds your mind completely.

I'm pretty sure you'd have no objection to building a new prison weekly and support the upkeep of those incarcerated indefinitely with tax payer money.

But anything aimed at the root problem becomes socialism. You're locked into the prison of your own narrow mind. Ironic.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-28   19:47:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: iconoclast (#42)

Stay away from politics.

Says the man who thinks there is some huge difference in establishment whores. I don't reckon I need any of your advice but thanks anyway.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   19:48:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: iconoclast (#43)

His goal benefits society.

All communists think their schemes and goals "benefit society." But they never consider the fact that their schemes and goals have to be funded by someone and it doesn't bother them that the people who are usually looked to to fund their "goals" do so only under duress. You and your friend have the right to piss away as much of your own money as you want to but no right to steal, or to ask the government to steal on your behalf, that which you have not earned.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   19:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: iconoclast (#43)

His goal benefits society. Really James, your obsession with "socialism" clouds your mind completely.

Sell me some of what you're smoking, I'll pay top dollar no questions asked.

And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot

Dakmar  posted on  2008-08-28   19:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Dakmar (#46)

LOL! I bet it is some of those magic 'shrooms like that little bear had in that movie The Bear. Did you see that? The little bear cub ate those mushrooms, it started raining and he was lying on his back, looking up at all the wild colors in the rain.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   20:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: James Deffenbach (#47)

No, happy cartoons depress me. It's like reading Milton.

And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot

Dakmar  posted on  2008-08-28   20:13:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Dakmar (#48)

No, happy cartoons depress me. It's like reading Milton.

Nah, it wasn't a cartoon but a movie. A good one too. Here is some info about the movie.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   20:23:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Ferret Mike (#35)

Mike, your bullying days are over. I sincerely hope you can make peace with that fact.

“There’s less than 1 percent of the population of Iowa that is African American. There is probably less than 4 or 5 percent that are minorities. What is in Washington? So look, it goes back to what you start off with, what you’re dealing with,” -- Joe Biden, Oct. 25 2007

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-28   20:26:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: James Deffenbach (#49)

Nah, it wasn't a cartoon but a movie

Lost paradise...left behind

And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot

Dakmar  posted on  2008-08-28   21:00:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Dakmar (#51)

Good music, thanks.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-08-28   23:41:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: iconoclast (#39)

Explination accepted, and I'll back off. Understand thoughm the ferret as a rodent thing, and the breeding stereotype is something I have heard too often as a poster on Free republic and elsewhere. And it is really no surprise I reacted to it like I did.


"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-08-29   2:05:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Tauzero (#50)

Strange, but that is much of how I feel about you and your load of crap promoting and celebrating racism.

I am not surprised you feel bullied, but you do it to yourself. I feel great, and you look like a clown.

And that is your doing and your problem, not mine.


"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-08-29   4:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: all (#0)

WHAT'S WITH THIS GUY?

Should read: What's with these Guys ? [And what's with you ???]

The obvious answer to the real question is that the U.S. Inc. is owned by the "federal reserve" and these two creeps are their offerings. These two represent their owners not you or me.

Every election cycle it's like we lose our memory, get caught up in the "he said" / "she said" nonsense about which candidate is WORSE and think we're voting for the lesser of two evils when in fact we're chugging the Kool-Aid and become equally evil but too stupid to realize it.

They (candidates) truly exist in another dimension or STATE of being than any honest people. Their dimension is one of fraud through fiction that extracts the life out of reality, turns truth into a lie and eventually transforms people into "persons" (straw-persons) so that they too can commit fraud upon their neighbors.

We cannot serve two masters. We owe our existence to the Creator of the Universe not the criminals you think you are "voting" into office. By participating in the fraud you become "ONE OF THEM" and assist in the maintenance of the criminal dimension that most claim to hate. This makes you (at a minimum) a hypocrit, a thief, a liar and an accomplice to international genocide.

Most of the people participating on this forum are intelligent people with good intentions. Most fear the government yet maintain it by complying with every ordinance they think threatening enough to their CONvenience. Values are rationalized and in most cases people compromise them in order to avoid confrontation with the (beast) system.

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power but the truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States." "Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here that the United States was to be lowered to the position of a coolie country. . and was to supply financial power to an international superstate -- a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the World for their own pleasure."

noone222  posted on  2008-08-29   5:20:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: iconoclast, ferret Mike (#31)

All proposed solutions to "the problems of youth" would have to be racially neutral. Otherwise it don't pass muster with the "special peepul" behind the scenes.

And, rich white suburban folks ain't going to allow their kids to be warehoused to help with the "other problem".

If America had the political will to even discuss certain problems as inner city urban poor or "black" problems, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Instead, we'll see politicians trying to take guns away from law abiding whites in order to appease The Southland Corp (7/11 Stores) and others NGOs that work to disarm us, while never having the courage to speak the truth as former NAACP President Kweisi Mfume did when he said, "Blacks cannot responsibly own firearms."

And, if blacks demonstrate that they cannot peaceably assemble, then we'll have to forfeit that 1st amendment right, too.

IRISH CONFETTI!___Photobucket

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-08-29   6:13:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Ferret Mike (#54)

Mike, you can hop up and down like a wigger all you want, it still won't change the facts. But what other choice do you have, when the facts don't support you? So, you have my sympathies, and my tolerance.

“There’s less than 1 percent of the population of Iowa that is African American. There is probably less than 4 or 5 percent that are minorities. What is in Washington? So look, it goes back to what you start off with, what you’re dealing with,” -- Joe Biden, Oct. 25 2007

Tauzero  posted on  2008-08-29   9:53:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Ferret Mike (#53)

And it is really no surprise I reacted to it like I did.

I understand your reaction, Mike.

I also acknowledge that my friends idea is radical but I don't think it is by it's nature Draconian (though it could be if not implemented with extreme caution).

It's just that the black/white irreconcilability and the insolubility of the black underclass cycle seem to cry out for extreme measures.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-29   10:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: iconoclast (#58)

It's just that the black/white irreconcilability and the insolubility of the black underclass cycle seem to cry out for extreme measures.

Here's a radical idea re; the black 'family. Since more than 70% of the black men get in the wind upon the birth of their children (see Mr. Oooga Booga Obama), why not find them and toss their black asses in hard labor until they're capable of supporting their progeny?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-08-29   10:18:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: HOUNDDAWG (#56)

All proposed solutions to "the problems of youth" would have to be racially neutral.

I think you may have unintentionally swerved into a piece of truth there, as Lamebaugh might put it. ;-)

It occurs to me that there may be more than few young people out of there of colors other than black that could profit from residential schooling. Also, nothing to prevent such from being carried out by the private sector or on a state basis as opposed to national.

I wish we could hear Fr. Flanagan's opinion on the matter.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-29   10:23:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Jethro Tull (#59)

Here's a radical idea re; the black 'family. Since more than 70% of the black men get in the wind upon the birth of their children (see Mr. Oooga Booga Obama), why not find them and toss their black asses in hard labor until they're capable of supporting their progeny?

Here's another idea as long as we're tossing around radical ideas.

Why not undo LBJ's zany programs and give give black men back their manhood?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-08-29   10:27:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: iconoclast. all (#61)

Why not undo LBJ's zany programs and give give black men back their manhood?

That, and declare victory in all our 'Wars:' poverty, illiteracy, drugs, crime, terror, hunger, and however many others I forgot to mention.

If we want more of any problem, just have fedgov declare war on it.

A nation of idiots, ruled by tyrants.

Lod  posted on  2008-08-29   10:37:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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