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Title: The Trinity – a Bible teaching, or, a false teaching?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 10, 2008
Author: Richard
Post Date: 2008-09-10 23:04:00 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1468
Comments: 77

The Trinity – a Bible teaching, or, a false teaching?

Before we start, I wish to point out a couple of important things. First off, this is not being written in an attempt to convert anyone. That is not possible. Only you can make such a decision. I am not capable of making such a decision for you, nor, do I wish to be responsible for such a decision.

This paper is being written in the desire to give to you, each and everyone, a reason to begin to study the Bible. The Truth, and Jehovah, awaits all men, but it is available only to those who will make the effort to discover it, and Him.

John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

If you understand this Scripture, you know that everlasting life is only available to those who make the effort to learn the Truth. For that reason, my only desire is to motivate you to begin your quest, just as I have continued my quest. That being said, let us begin this study.

Trinity Definition: Within the nature of the One True God, there simultaneously exists three eternal Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All three Persons are co-equals in all the attributes of the Divine Nature.

The Trinity Dogma

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

There, that is so that we all know what we are talking about, and, so we each understand exactly where this dogma originated; with the Roman Catholic church.

Even people who profess to hate the Roman Catholic church, accept this dogma. Why is that? And especially since we have a witness from the Roman church that tells us this;

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

WHAT!! Since Scripture was finished in the first 100 years C.E., then the Trinity CAN NOT BE A BIBLE TEACHING!! Note this comment above;

Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective

What does that mean? It means that the Apostles, those who personally knew the Christ Jesus, did not teach, nor write about, the Trinity. And we have another witness that many consider to be very, very good;

The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4)…. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies…. By the end of the 4th century … the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.” – (1976), Micropaedia, Vol. X, p. 126.

Let us repeat part of what is here revealed;

“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers

What can we gather from this? That the Christ Jesus DID NOT TEACH the dogma known as the Trinity. And if He did not teach it, by what right does man hold to it?

Proverbs 30:6; Add nothing to his words, that he may not reprove you, and that you may not have to be proved a liar.

It is interesting, to me, that the Roman church uses as a major part of their proof of the Trinity; Proof of the doctrine from Tradition

It is also important to note what the Roman church says about dogma;

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm

"But according to a long-standing usage a dogma is now understood to be a truth appertaining to faith or morals, revealed by God, transmitted from the Apostles in the Scriptures or by tradition, and proposed by the Church for the acceptance of the faithful. It might be described briefly as a revealed truth defined by the Church -- but private revelations do not constitute dogmas, and some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office. A dogma therefore implies a twofold relation: to Divine revelation and to the authoritative teaching of the Church."

It is pretty clear from this that the Roman church does not restrict itself to Scriptures.

Were we warned, in Scripture, about such teachings? Remember, as witnessed above from the Roman church, the Trinity came into Christianity late in the 4th century;

Acts 20:28-30 "Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock ... I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies."

2 John 7; "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh: such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist."

In view of this clear prediction by the Holy Spirit that the primitive faith would be corrupted, the modern church needs to do more than justify its belief in the Trinity by claiming uninterrupted acceptance of the doctrine back to the third or fourth century. It needs to demonstrate that the tradition went back further still, right to the days of the apostles. This it cannot do. It can only point to a gradual growth of a doctrine that reached maturity at the Council of Nicea. This introduces the possibility, which the authors sincerely believe to be the reality, that the doctrine of the Trinity was not an original Christian belief, but a prime example of the development of false teaching as predicted by the apostles.

Only one authority

Faced with this possibility the only satisfactory course is to accept as authoritative nothing but the original teaching expressed by the founders of the Christian church. In other words our knowledge of God must be obtained exclusively from the words of Jesus and the Apostles and any writings whose trustworthiness they endorse. This means that the Bible, and that alone, is the source of the information about God that is so vital for human salvation. Every genuine follower of Jesus should therefore agree wholeheartedly with Paul's assessment of the authority of Scripture as the infallible guide to Christian doctrine and behaviour:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is inspired by God, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

There is no escaping the meaning of these words. The Scriptures are inspired by God, and are the source of all doctrinal information.

The Authority of the Roman Church

But some will say "Surely, this is also the position of the Church. No Christian would deny that the Bible is the ultimate source of appeal in theological questions." It is true that this is the theoretical position, but in practice the authority of the Church itself is given equal or even greater weight than that of Scripture. One of the dominant ecclesiastical figures of the nineteenth century was John Newman, an Anglican vicar who in later life switched to Rome and eventually became a Catholic Cardinal. If he is at all remembered today it is for his hymn "Lead, kindly Light", but in his day he was well known for his prolific doctrinal writings. He wrote about the doctrine of the Trinity as follows:

"It may startle those who are but acquainted with the popular writings of this day, yet, I believe, the most accurate consideration of the subject will lead us to acquiesce in the statement as a general truth, that the doctrines in question (viz., the Trinity and the Incarnation) have never been learned merely from Scripture. Surely the sacred volume was never intended, and is not adapted to teach us our creed; however certain it is that we can prove our creed from it, when it has once been taught us ... From the very first, the rule has been, as a matter of fact, for the Church to teach the truth, and then appeal to Scripture in vindication of its own teaching".

Notice the clear implication of these words. The Church formulates the doctrines and then appeals to Scripture in an attempt to support them. This is very different from coming to the Bible with an open mind in order to learn what it teaches.

Another Catholic priest, the Rev James Hughes, was even more outspoken about the real source of Church doctrine in general and the Trinity in particular:

"My belief in the Trinity is based on the authority of the Church: no other authority is sufficient".

But not all Christians are members of an Established Church. Many non-conformists and evangelical groups claim to have by-passed the Church and to have gained their teaching directly from Scripture. And they, almost without exception, believe the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet how accurate is their claim that they are guided solely by the Bible and not by church tradition? Professor F.F. Bruce, the noted Manchester University theologian, keenly observed:

"People who adhere to sola scriptura (as they believe) often adhere in fact to a traditional school of interpretation of sola scriptura. Evangelical Protestants can be as much servants of tradition as Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox Christians; only they don*t realise that it is ‘tradition*"

The seeker after truth, then, will test every belief by Scripture, and will accept nothing that cannot be clearly demonstrated by the Word of God.

All this being said, where, exactly, does the Trinity come from? Can we actually believe the Roman church when they claim that it is a Divine revelation?

First, let us define Divine Revelation. A Divine Revelation would be something new, something first being revealed from God, directly to someone on the earth. The last book of the Bible, Revelation, is a good example. A Divine Revelation revealed to the Apostle John, the last of the Apostles to die. The book of Revelation contains information never before revealed to mankind. Therefore, it should be an historical fact that the Trinity did not exist on the earth prior to the Divine Revelation made to the Roman Church sometime prior to the end of the 4th century.

Is this a historical fact?

No, it is not. The Trinity doctrine has been around for more than 4,000 years.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/Lost-Doctrines-Christianity009.htm

“All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon have adopted in one form or another a Trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods. In Babylon it was Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz. In Egypt it was Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Within Israel paganism it was Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah. In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul. In the book, A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity:

We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy … The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.

(MY NOTE: It is important to note that the original Trinity doctrine was from Babylon, and was comprised of Nimrod, his wife, Semiramas, and their son (the son of god) Tammuz. Nimrod has been worshipped as the Sun god, and under various other names, such as Baal and Marduk, down through the ages. The son of god noted in Roman Catholic theology, Tammuz, was supposedly born on December 25th. This celebration, Xmas, has been going on more or less continuously for about 4,000 years, in conjunction with the worship of a triune god in various forms and in many different parts of the earth.)

Historians also know that the Trinity doctrine is not authorized in the New Testament.

There is no evidence the Apostles of Jesus ever heard of a Trinity.

The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word Trinity itself, nor such language as one in three, three in one, one essence or substance or three persons, is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient Church, taken not from the Bible but from classical Greek philosophy.

Long before the founding of Christianity the idea of a triune god or a god-in-three persons was a common belief in ancient religions. Although many of these religions had many minor deities, they distinctly acknowledged that there was one supreme God who consisted of three persons or essences. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to represent this three-in-one god, now the symbol of the modern three-in-one believers. The Greek triad was composed of Zeus, Athena and Apollo. These three were said by the pagans to 'agree in one.' One of the largest pagan temples built by the Romans was constructed at Ballbek (situated in present day Lebanon) to their Trinity of Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. In Babylon the planet Venus was revered as special and was worshipped as a Trinity consisting of Venus, the moon and the sun. This triad became the Babylonian holy Trinity in the fourteenth century before Christ. Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the Trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ. That there was no formal, established doctrine of the Trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact. Clearly, historians of church dogma and systematic theologians agree that the idea of a Christian Trinity was not a part of the first century church. The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it. So how then did a trinitarian doctrine come about? It gradually evolved and gained momentum in late first, second and third centuries as pagans, who had converted to Christianity, brought to Christianity some of their pagan beliefs and practices.

………………………

There is only one passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible used by Trinitarians to support their view.

I John 5:7-8, For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. AV

Editors added the bracketed words in the early fourth century to the Latin Vulgate translation. They are not in the older Greek manuscripts. For this reason, modern translations omit them. Bible commentaries explain that these words were never in the apostle John's manuscript or any existing early copies of it.

You are more than welcome to go to the site quoted and read more information. Or, simply type trinity and Babylon into any search engine, and start reading. The pagan roots of the Trinity dogma are easy to find and verify.

And is this the only witness that we have on this subject?

Certainly not. On the net here is a free book;

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

The title of this book is The Two Babylons by Rev. Alexander Hislop. Another name for this book could be; The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife.

The basis of the book, and after you read it there is no doubt about it, is that the Roman church is the same as the old mystery religion of Babylon. Same festivals, same rituals, same gods, everything is the same right down to the vestments of the pope and the priests. This book is free, it is a good read and well worth your time. Especially if you believe, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, the trinity dogma of the Roman Catholic church.

I will also tell you this. If you will simply open up the internet site listed above and read the chapter and sub-chapter headings you will get a very, very good idea of just how far off of Christianity the Roman church truly is.

But that creates a very, very big problem for anyone who attends and professes to believe in any of the mainstream so-called Christian churches. To be sure you understand, this includes the Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Church of England, and all other organized religious groups who accept the Roman church dogma of the Trinity, all of the holy days and festivals that originated in Babylon and were passed on through the Roman church, the immortal soul dogma, and all other pagan beliefs that have entered into Christianity through the Roman church.

If you are confused about what that means, perhaps we should return to Scripture for just a moment;

Revelation 12:9; So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Misleading the entire inhabited earth. Would you think that this has something to do with this Scripture?

Revelation 17:5; And upon her forehead was written a name, “Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.”

Babylon the Great refers to organized religion, and all of the disgusting pagan beliefs that they have brought into the Christian faith to mislead the people of the earth. We are told, in the Bible, that all things of the world are enemies of Jehovah, because it is all under the power of the evil one.

1 John 5:19; We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the(power of the) wicked one.

This is why we are told the following;

John 17:15,16; "I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

To be separate. Is that so difficult? And then there is this Scripture;

John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

After you begin to see some of the deceptions that have deluded mankind for so long, it is difficult, at least it is for me, not to begin to be serious about learning. Perhaps this Scripture will also explain some of the reasons why;

Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it.

How can you not understand that if you are a part of organized religion, if you believe as the vast majority of mankind believes, then you are headed for destruction? How much clearer does it need to be made? What does it take to make you accept the need to study the Bible, to learn the Truth, and to get the veils lifted from your eyes?

I can not do it for you. You must act; not I. I already have, and have been doing so for many years. Now, it is your turn. Blessings, Richard

If you have any questions, please ask, privately if that is what you wish. Subscribe to *Bible facts*

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#1. To: richard9151 (#0) (Edited)

If the Greek fathers say there is a Holy Trinity then it so. Why would I rely on the formulations of the children of northern barbarians who wore animal skins and painted themselves blue?

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2008-09-10   23:41:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Destro (#1)

who wore animal skins and painted themselves blue?

You would be blue also if you lived where they did and you only had animal skins to cover yourself with. And no paint neccessary!!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-10   23:46:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: richard9151 (#0)

The Trinity – a Bible teaching, or, a false teaching?

Can't it be both.

Rhino369  posted on  2008-09-10   23:50:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: richard9151 (#2) (Edited)

The Nicene Creed (In English)

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2008-09-10   23:51:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Rhino369 (#3)

Can't it be both.

That is for you to decide. Depends on if you actually believe in God or not. This I will tell you; the Bible is far, far different from what most people think it is.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-10   23:55:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: richard9151 (#0) (Edited)

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies."

Yet you do not heed these words.

There is God, the one true God. God the son or the Word of God. In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Holy Spirit or God in action. Not three separate beings but three aspects of God.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-09-11   1:19:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: richard9151 (#0)

After you begin to see some of the deceptions that have deluded mankind for so long, it is difficult, at least it is for me, not to begin to be serious about learning. Perhaps this Scripture will also explain some of the reasons why...

Forget "Bible facts." Your Scriptures constitute a Semitic document, for Semitic people -- not at all suitable as a guidebook for preservation of European Man. They are not grounded in reality, therefore it is foolish to look to these for answers to European Man's very real, current problems.

"Mankind" is a little too inclusive at this point as the foundation for a movement of renewal for White people. First, richard, you must acknowledge that you are a White person and that your particular phenotype/genotype is worth preserving as a unique subspecies of your greater "Mankind." Can you do that?

It's Great to be White!

Hypocrisy Cop  posted on  2008-09-11   8:18:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: richard9151 (#5)

If your Jehovas "witness" buddies are teaching there is no trinity. Punch them in the mouth and run as far away from those cultists as you can.

Old Friend  posted on  2008-09-11   8:34:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: richard9151 (#0)

I am going to tell God when I meet Him that I saw much evidence of the fact that there must have been a Creator and always acknowledged this in reverent awe during my limited physical lifespan, but I am going to have to confess honestly, as I am now doing, that such arcane ideas as the "Holy Trinity" are literally beyond my comprehension in the limited mind/brain He gave me.

I am grateful to God for what little intellect I have, but I am not going to try to convince anyone, from God on down, that I understand such abstruse and esoteric concepts.

Another thing I am going to have to confess to God is that I have NO IDEA how "old" the earth is (or even why I feel that "time" is real—during my near-death experience, I understood it to be an illusion). Yet another is that I have no clue whether the species of which I am a member evolved over eons or was the result of a "special creation" in 4004 B.C.

Father, forgive me my limited knowledge and understanding. I have a feeling none of these things matter much. What's much more important is to do simple things such as "loving your neighbor as yourself" (unless, of course, you hate yourself; then, I suppose, using the physician's motto of "first, do no harm," at least avoid your neighbor so that you express no hatred toward him or her).

“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston

Sam Houston  posted on  2008-09-11   9:00:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Sam Houston (#9)

I am grateful to God for what little intellect I have, but I am not going to try to convince anyone, from God on down, that I understand such abstruse and esoteric concepts.

Not many of the DOGMATIC so-called Christians have demonstrated the humility that you've expressed.

Just one example: James 4:6-10 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Man's not so infrequent attempts to reduce God to a comprehensible entity obscures the majesty of the Creation and its Creator.

Thanks for your post, Sam !

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power but the truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States." "Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here that the United States was to be lowered to the position of a coolie country. . and was to supply financial power to an international superstate -- a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the World for their own pleasure."

noone222  posted on  2008-09-11   9:09:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: farmfriend (#6)

Yet you do not heed these words.

What is not to heed? The dogma came from the Roman church, who claimed it was a Divine Revelation, yet the historical record is so clear that it came from Babylon that no one that is not blinded can deny it.

I John 5:7-8, For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. AV

Editors added the bracketed words in the early fourth century to the Latin Vulgate translation. They are not in the older Greek manuscripts. For this reason, modern translations omit them. Bible commentaries explain that these words were never in the apostle John's manuscript or any existing early copies of it.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   10:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: richard9151 (#11)

What is not to heed? The dogma came from the Roman church, who claimed it was a Divine Revelation, yet the historical record is so clear that it came from Babylon that no one that is not blinded can deny it.

You completely missed my point. Interesting.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-09-11   10:35:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Hypocrisy Cop (#7)

not at all suitable as a guidebook for preservation of European Man.

I believe we have been over this before.

What are called Jews today, are not Semitic. Research, which I guided you to before, show beyond any doubt that most of Europe was settled by the remanents of the lost 10 tribes of Isreal. They left their mark all across eastern Europe as they moved west. Those remanents are also where most of the seed stock for America came from. You can argue about it all you want, but most of what you are doing is inciting hatred and anger, both in yourself, and when possible, in others.

Then you sit back and watch while your white leaders use you and anyone else of like mind to murder millions around the world, in the name of greed and money and oil, and anything else that those white leaders and their banking bosses want, while everyone else pays the price for their greed. So go ahead, fill me some more, cause I really do not understand........ NOT!!

As you do, so shall ye reap.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   10:39:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Old Friend (#8)

If your Jehovas "witness" buddies are teaching there is no trinity. Punch them in the mouth and run as far away from those cultists as you can.

So you believe in the Babylonian Trinity, along with the rest of the world, right?

Tell me, what parrt of this do you not understand?

Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it.

If you wish to believe as the vast majority does, and are not willing to do the work neccessary to learn, so be it. But you will remember this day, when you had the opportunity to change, and did not accept even common sense.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   10:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: noone222, Sam Houston (#10)

I am grateful to God for what little intellect I have, but I am not going to try to convince anyone, from God on down, that I understand such abstruse and esoteric concepts.

You know, Sam, that is fine. I agree with much of what you say.... with the caveat that Jehovah did not expect any less from us than what you expressed. I explained this in the post where I talked about meekness and the new personality.

The point about the Trinity is that it is not in Scripture, and, is not explainable in any fashion that is understandable. To anyone.

But please do not make the mistake of so many and think that Jehovah has left us to wonder in circles never knowing what is expected of us, and what it takes to fulfill His expectations. The Bible is not about what we think about God. The Bible is about what God thinks about us and what He expects from us. It is a manual of responsibilities.

To understand that, simply read the following Scripture a few times and you will see what I mean.

John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   10:50:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: farmfriend (#12)

You completely missed my point. Interesting.

I got your point. I understood exactly what you said.

Now listen very carefully; I have been reading the Bible for more than 20 years. I understood, long before I met my first Jehovah's Witness, that the trinity was a false teaching and was not in the Bible.

That hell did not exist, and was not in the Bible.

That the immortal soul that lives on after death was not a Bible teaching.

That there are no ministers or priests under the New Covenant.

That politics are a sham and are a part of the world, which we are told not to be a part of.

I have yet to find anything in the teaching put forth from the Witnesses that is different from what I had already learned. The few, the very few, differences that I had with them have all been resolved, calmly, quietly, using the Bible for clarification.

They do not deviate from the Bible. Not one whit. And they taught me how to use the Bible to confirm itself.

So please, show me how they are false teachers?

Oh, and another thing they taught me; if it ain't in the Bible, it ain't important....... cause the only thing we are to worry about is salvation and to do that, we need to know what the Christ Jesus expects from us.

Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   10:59:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: richard9151 (#16)

So please, show me how they are false teachers?

I already gave you one example, what would be the point in giving you another. I've learned never to argue with a kool-aide drinker. You want to follow false teaching, I can't stop you.

I have been reading the Bible for more than 20 years.
I've been reading the Bible for 40 years. So what? I am not a convert. There was never a time I did not believe.


"You have delusions of adequacy."

farmfriend  posted on  2008-09-11   11:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: farmfriend (#17)

I already gave you one example,

No, you did not. If you are referring to some comment you made about the lost tribes of Israel, they are lost. We have ideas about where they are, and what became of them, but the New Testament makes it pretty clear that all of mankind is a part of the New Covenant.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   11:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: richard9151 (#14)

Richard, God's will is going to be done whether you're here to witness it or not ... God doesn't need any of us to brow beat others into submissive "belief'.

From what I can tell (speaking only for myself) God will convince the most adamant resistor if that's His will.

Your or my admonishments to others only stimulates aggravation (mostly yours) because the others aren't invited cordially but threatened constantly.

By the way ... where ya been ? Welcome back ... now shut up!

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power but the truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States." "Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here that the United States was to be lowered to the position of a coolie country. . and was to supply financial power to an international superstate -- a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the World for their own pleasure."

noone222  posted on  2008-09-11   11:30:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: noone222 (#19)

From what I can tell (speaking only for myself) God will convince the most adamant resistor if that's His will.

I agree. With the caveat that we have a responsiblity to promote His Word, that the blood of those who could have been saved, if they had been afforded a chance to repent, is on our heads if we did not afford them that chance. That is pretty clear in Scripture.

Your or my admonishments to others only stimulates aggravation (mostly yours)

Not mine. I understand full well that it is an individual choice, and that I have no part in it (it is between Jehovah and each individual), except to present the evidence.

By the way ... where ya been ? Welcome back

Puter crashed. Took a long time to get the material in it recovered and get back on line.

now shut up!

LOL!! Now.... YOU KNOW ME BETTER THAN THAT!!! LOL!!!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   11:36:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: richard9151 (#20)

Puter crashed. Took a long time to get the material in it recovered and get back on line.

Richard, it was a sign from God ...

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power but the truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States." "Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here that the United States was to be lowered to the position of a coolie country. . and was to supply financial power to an international superstate -- a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the World for their own pleasure."

noone222  posted on  2008-09-11   13:04:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: noone222 (#21)

Richard, it was a sign from God ...

LOL!! The thing is, perhaps you are right. I spent a lot more time in the Bible cause I did not waste it on the puter!!

Say, what ever happened with innieway and ladybug? Hear anything from them lately?

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   13:26:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: richard9151 (#13)

To: Hypocrisy Cop

not at all suitable as a guidebook for preservation of European Man.

I believe we have been over this before.

What are called Jews today, are not Semitic. Research, which I guided you to before, show beyond any doubt that most of Europe was settled by the remanents of the lost 10 tribes of Isreal. They left their mark all across eastern Europe as they moved west. Those remanents are also where most of the seed stock for America came from. You can argue about it all you want, but most of what you are doing is inciting hatred and anger, both in yourself, and when possible, in others.

Then you sit back and watch while your white leaders use you and anyone else of like mind to murder millions around the world, in the name of greed and money and oil, and anything else that those white leaders and their banking bosses want, while everyone else pays the price for their greed. So go ahead, fill me some more, cause I really do not understand........ NOT!!

Sorry if I incited hatred and anger in you by my putting the burden on you to prove your belief in this "Lost Tribes" theory, richard. It's not my burden to disprove your belief. You've proven nothing with your remanent [sic] theory. Are you going to trot out that Saxons are descended from Isaac's sons -- get it? -- and the Danes are from the tribe of Dan, and all that? Puhlease!

Tell me, richard, who are these supposed "white leaders" and their "banking bosses" you say use me and others to murder millions? What's with that? Just name one of these supposed "white leaders." Where's your Xian tolerance for others who aren't into your particular brand of spookcraft?

You don't know me or a thing about me, yet you reflexively go into this rant about hatred and murder and all that because I would dare advocate for the best interests of my people -- non-Jewish European descendants -- and I take a dim view of your Jew-spawned Christinsanity.

You're right about one thing, though, richard. Once you are awakened to the folly of your irrational belief in an imaginary Jewish Superspook, you'll either change your beliefs, or, in the alternative, you'll "go along to get along" and will foreclose your chances of ever becoming a truly honest man.

Nobody ever said it would be easy.

It's Great to be White!

Hypocrisy Cop  posted on  2008-09-11   16:03:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: richard9151 (#14) (Edited)

The bible is bullshit so the fact that the Witnesses are the truest to it really is immaterial to me. As a word of caution I will warn you to be extremely skeptical, question everything, and think critically about what you are doing and I strongly recommend doing so before you go too far down the path you are going. When you get to a place where you've alienated yourself from all of your "worldly" friends and family and you have nothing left but witnesses, you will then find yourself in a precarious position; one that can take years to get away from. I don't think the witnesses are bad people by any means and I've been exactly where you are today. I'm sure they will be quick to tell you I'm someone who was weak in my faith but I can tell you it took a lot more strength to think for myself and remove myself from that environment that it did to go along with what I was being told. Just because they incessantly call it "the truth" doesn't make it anymore true. Ultimately you will make, be responsible for, and have to live with the decisions you make so I strongly advise you to proceed with extreme caution. Beyond that I won't advise you either way because ultimately I became a better person through the experience, but that didn't happen without a cost. Here's a couple of videos I recommend and there's plenty more I could, but I'll leave you to do your own research.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGE8DWaCDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkeZkrtSHS0

All of that said, if you do continue down the path your are on and decide this will be a forum for you to preach what you are learn you should think again. I will be very quick to offer my personal experiences and viewpoints in extremely fierce opposition. I can' think of an unhappier time in my life as when I was associated with the witnesses and if I can serve as a warning to others I will be more than happy to do so.

Ncturnal  posted on  2008-09-11   16:30:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Ncturnal (#24)

The bible is bullshit so the fact that the Witnesses are the truest to it really is immaterial to me. As a word of caution I will warn you to be extremely skeptical, question everything, and think critically about what you are doing and I strongly recommend doing so before you go too far down the path you are going.

That's good advice from one with direct experience.

Some want to believe in something badly enough that they'll fall for anything.

It's Great to be White!

Hypocrisy Cop  posted on  2008-09-11   16:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Ncturnal (#24)

The bible is bullshit

This is by no means questioning your statement and I'm not a bible puncher or a biblical scholar however where did you get your moral direction from? I am assuming you do have a moral direction

robnoel  posted on  2008-09-11   17:05:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: richard9151 (#14)

So you believe in the Babylonian Trinity, along with the rest of the world, right?

Tell me, what parrt of this do you not understand?

Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it.

Show me where there is a Babylonian trinity.

Show me where in Matthew 6:13 it is talking about the trinity.

Old Friend  posted on  2008-09-11   19:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: richard9151 (#14)

Here let me help unbrainwash you.

Jesus is called true God in 1 John 5:20. This proves Jesus is not excluded from John 17:3.

Old Friend  posted on  2008-09-11   19:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Old Friend (#27)

Show me where there is a Babylonian trinity.

I already did, in this post. But you can find it all for yourself. Just type Babylon and Trinity in any search engine and you will get enough hits to keep you busy for a week.

This is the original Trinity; Nimrod, his wife, Semiramas, and their son (the son of god) Tammuz.

As I explained, Tammuz is the son of god born on December 25th, which holy day has been celebrated in many parts of the world for nearly 4,000 years.

Show me where in Matthew 6:13 it is talking about the trinity.

This Scripture has nothing to do with the Trinity. What it explains is that the mainstream beliefs are always wrong. If the vast majority of people believe in the trinity, then you can be assured it is a lie.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   20:06:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: richard9151 (#22)

Innieway is still here and ladybug is waiting for him in an undisclosed location. He should be on his way there in the not too distant future.

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power but the truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States." "Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here that the United States was to be lowered to the position of a coolie country. . and was to supply financial power to an international superstate -- a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the World for their own pleasure."

noone222  posted on  2008-09-11   20:10:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Old Friend (#28)

Jesus is called true God in 1 John 5:20.

Let us start first with John 5:20, from the King James Bible;

For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

So you are saying that God showed himself all things that himself doeth. Right? And that the Father loveth himself, right? Cause if they be part of a trinity, that is what this Scripture means.

1 John 5:20 King James Bible; And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. Note the period, please. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Archaic language. Diffucult, but still fairly clear; "that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, ... This is the true God, and eternal life.

What is difficult to understand, if you understand the use of commas and periods?

But please. Permit me to show you a clearer translation, in modern English;

But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

Now look at 1 Timothy 2:5 King James Bible; For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

How does God mediate with himself?

Then, there is one more question; did Jesus Christ die, or, did he not?

How is it possible for Almighty God to die? We are told that He can not; that He has existed from time indefinate to time indefinate. And if He did come to the earth to die, who resurrected Him 3 days later?

These are just a couple of the unexplainable mysteries of the trinity that you have been told to accept on faith. From the Roman church.

Judge for yourself.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-11   20:37:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: robnoel (#26)

This is by no means questioning your statement and I'm not a bible puncher or a biblical scholar however where did you get your moral direction from? I am assuming you do have a moral direction.

This is a very common argument to any statement made by someone that discredits the bible, or any other religious guide for that matter. The premise of your argument makes some false assumptions in that it asserts that morality only comes from the bible. If you would like to support how that claim is true, I'm all ears. Conversely I could make a very strong argument that the bible is an extremely poor moral guide. Furthermore, it begs the question, what about those people who have had no exposure to the bible? Where do they get their morals? Where did you get your morals? If you think about it, such a statement is completely ridiculous and probably only comes from religious conditioning. Anyway, all that said, the short answer to a very complex subject is much of it a product of your parents and a your ability to reason (which is a product of evolution and your genetic makeup). The genetic make-up only points to potential though and doesn't necessarily mean that potential will be realized. Brain development plays a part, along with environment and culture (a huge factor). Morality is a product of several factors which explains why people have varying levels of morality and there isn't a universal morality (although religion would like to impose one). Morality is religion's straw man argument against atheism. I really don't want to ramble on about it. Simply do more research and you will easily see that someone absent of religion can have morals, even morals that exceed those provided by religion.

Miracles and morals www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKcx0biHPR0

Penn & Teller - Bible is Bullshit (short version) www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E

Ncturnal  posted on  2008-09-11   22:23:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Ncturnal (#32) (Edited)

Maybe I should of added I come from Africa where unlike America morality is limited I guess I come down on the side of Jefferson who spent the better part of life dealing with this very issue and wrote for his personal use only what is known as

The Jefferson Bible

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels

Compiled by Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to William Canby, "Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus." He described his own compilation to Charles Thomson as "a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen." He told John Adams that he was rescuing the Philosophy of Jesus and the "pure principles which he taught," from the "artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms as instruments of riches and power for themselves." After having selected from the evangelists "the very words only of Jesus," he believed "there will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffintr.html

robnoel  posted on  2008-09-11   22:34:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: richard9151 (#0)

The Trinity – a Bible teaching, or, a false teaching?

My view on this question is thus;

The Trinity relates to many different aspects of Nature, Man, and the Universe.

The Divine Masculine aspect of God is represented in Christian teachings as the Father, whereas the Divine Feminine aspect is hidden, but is represented as the Holy Spirit. The bond between those two forces creates a new Divine aspect, the Created Child (Jesus).

It can also represent Nature in regards to life, death, and rebirth through offspring. Think about how all plants and animals go through this cycle.

In various religions, it represents birth, death, and resurrection.

Even the Egypians had a trinity, consisting of Horus (father), Isis (mother), and Osiris (son).


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-09-11   23:12:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: robnoel (#33)

I really don't follow what point you are trying to make if you are in fact trying to make one. Your argument is an appeal to authority at best, although I'd argue it more of an appeal to false authority since I don't recall Thomas Jefferson being the authority on morality. Furthermore, it doesn't support your implied argument that one cannot attain moral direction without belief in the bible. I learned many moral values well before I learned to read so I still fail to see how your argument holds any water. Don't even get me started on the logical fallacies of using the bible as some sort of moral guide. If you would like to make a logical argument with factual evidence to support your claims, I welcome the discussion. However, what you have presented so far is a complete waste of time in that you made half-assed assumptions based on false premises. Surely you can do better than this?

Ncturnal  posted on  2008-09-12   0:58:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Ncturnal (#35)

Maybe you are the one that does not get it ...a lost cause if you will maybe a little book learning would be in order the bases of freedom (morality) as outlined by Edmund Burke and Jefferson was that our freedoms come from higher authority and that governments role is to protect those rights even if you are a athieist

robnoel  posted on  2008-09-12   5:54:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: FormerLurker (#34)

Even the Egypians had a trinity, consisting of Horus (father), Isis (mother), and Osiris (son).

Does that give value to such a religion? Is there some hidden strength in the idols of stone that they worshipped that, perhaps, I have missed?

whereas the Divine Feminine aspect is hidden, but is represented as the Holy Spirit.

If you really believe this, my friend, then you need to do some serious reading in the Bible. These are not subjects that are open to interpetation. They either are or they are not; and it is not up to us to make such decisions. We have neither the authority nor the ability to see such. That is why we must be taught what the Truth is.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-12   11:16:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: robnoel (#36)

Maybe you are the one that does not get it ...a lost cause if you will maybe a little book learning would be in order the bases of freedom (morality) as outlined by Edmund Burke and Jefferson was that our freedoms come from higher authority and that governments role is to protect those rights even if you are a athieist

In dealing with people such as Ncturnal, the Bible has some sage advice, knock the dust off of your feet and go on to the next, that you may find fertile ground for the planting of seeds. (I paraphrase, of course.)

Anyone looking around at the world understands how few morals there are in it, but deliberate blindness permits such as Nc. to argue any point of view they wish. Besides which, I would bet that he would give you an excuse for most of the bad morals of the nations, cause it ain't really bad, such as fornication and homosexuality. Its just what people want, don't ya know.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest. ++++++++++ Attention, Shrub; A life of evil is ultimately a life of wretchedness.

richard9151  posted on  2008-09-12   11:24:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: FormerLurker (#34)

The Trinity...can also represent Nature in regards to life, death, and rebirth through offspring. Think about how all plants and animals go through this cycle.

That description generally fits the spiritual beliefs of European peoples before Xianity and the Pale Jew of the Levant were forced upon them. Our people were very much in harmony with Nature and the changing of the seasons. Many are returning to these pre-Xian beliefs as they are being rediscovered. See Asatru, for example:

www.runestone.org/

It's Great to be White!

Hypocrisy Cop  posted on  2008-09-12   12:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: richard9151 (#37)

If you really believe this, my friend, then you need to do some serious reading in the Bible. These are not subjects that are open to interpetation.

The Bible is but a series of interpretations of older works. In fact, the original Hebrew was written in such a way as to present something on the surface to the unenlightened, but it's true and deeper meaning is hidden in Gematria, or so I've read.

But even the original Hebrew has been interpreted through various translations, and a group of mortals decided what was going to go into it and what wasn't.

God didn't write a book, God created the tools that enabled the book to be written, but it is not the only book that exists, nor is it definitive. It was written by a simple people, FOR a simple people. The lineage of the New Testament is highly suspect, and was more than likely assembled with ancient forgeries of the letters of the Apostles.

What matters is the Spirit within you, not your belief in words written on paper that may have nothing to do with what is true.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-09-12   15:06:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: richard9151 (#38)

Genesis in Hebrew states;

God (plural) created Mankind in THEIR own image.

Now that is meant to reflect the masculine and feminine aspects of God, of Man, AND EVERYTHING else. There is a duality of Nature, be it in man, animals, plants, insects, energy, matter, and most anything else.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-09-12   15:13:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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