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Religion See other Religion Articles Title: Please, help me change. I wonder.... so many are mad about what I have to say about the trinity. So I am asking the 4um to help me change. Below is a message sent to me (by whom it does not matter). I established the guide lines in my message. Please note them. Most everyone who is willing to talk about this ignores Scripture in favor of tradition and selected messages from Scripture. Everything has to be brought in; that is the most important part that I have learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses; the Bible is its own Witness. So let me throw out a couple of other things before we start; Phil. 2:9-11; “For this very reason also God exalted him (Jesus Christ) to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to Him.) John 8:54; “Jesus answered (the Jews): ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’” (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.) There are other Scriptures, where Jesus says that the Father is greater than I, and where Jesus says that He judges, but is instructed in how to judge, and that He does the Will of His Father. I can supply any that you wish. Then, there is this; Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it. The trinity doctrine is accepted throughout the world of organized religion. You need to think about that. Now, let the games begin. You are consumed with over-rating yourself I had to think about this.... so here is your chance to prove your point. Read my tag line. Now, about the trinity. If you can prove me wrong, I will change. I have already proven I am capable of that, because over the last year I have completely changed my outlook and perspective by using the Bible. But there is a caveat to that; if I am right, you have to change. Honestly change. Or.... well, I already told you to read my tag line. So one of us will either change, or, prove that they are dishonest. Up for it? You should be, after all: John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. Now, before you agree or disagree, we need to establish a base line. And that base line is understanding where the trinity teaching came from, which is the Roman church. I have already posted this info, but here is the review; The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4)…. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies…. By the end of the 4th century … the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.” – (1976), Micropaedia, Vol. X, p. 126. Now, that is The New Encyclopedia Britannica, and most consider it a good witness. You will note; By the end of the 4th century Whatever church you belong to, that was before it existed. And further note; nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ In addition; The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies Doctrine. Interesting. So is dogma and tradition. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/167440/doctrine#tab=active~checked% 2Citems~checked&title=doctrine%20and%20dogma%20--%20Britannica%20Online% 20Encyclopedia the explication and officially acceptable version of a religious teaching. The development of doctrines and dogmas has significantly affected the traditions, institutions, and practices of the religions of the world. Would you like me to dig out of the Bible what Jesus Christ said about those who teach traditions to the people, instead of the Word of God? Or should we just go on? Well, we all know that the Roman church is certainly one of the religions of the world, so let's hear from them, esp. as we want another witness; The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. Says the same thing, so we have two good witnesses. In addition, this one says; Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” Amazing. So they admit that the Apostles did not teach the Trinity, which means, since they got their information and learning directly from Jesus Christ, that He did not teach the Trinity. Now, since you claim that He is God Incarnate, please explain this to me...... just for a start; why didn't Jesus Christ teach the trinity? Because the only basis for the trinity teaching is the claim, by the Roman church, of a Divine Revelation. Which means, if you accept the trinity teaching, that you trust the Roman church more than you trust the teachings of Jesus Christ. So please, help me change.
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#1. To: richard9151 (#0)
I hope that this helps you.
Lod, thank you very much. That is a good piece, with three exceptions. 1. It is written from the standpoint of a trinitarian, rather than a Biblical standpoint. 2. It is written by a woman. And, 3. Nowhere in the Bible does the Holy Spirit talk to us, unlike the numerous occasions when Jehovah God and Jesus Christ do talk to us, helping us to understand, learn, and come closer to them. Please, permit me to explain. In detail. First off, the Bible is completely harmonious. I will get into that more in the answer to Ricky, and I will ping you with that answer. If the Holy Spirit does not speak, how can anyone refer to such as a person? On the other hand, the Holy Spirit IS spoken of in the Bible as 'filling people,' they can be 'baptied' with it, and they can be 'annointed' with it; Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the Holy Spirit were a person. As to a woman writing the paper, Paul had this to say; 1 Timothy 2:11-15; Let a woman learn in silence with full submissivesness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence, 13 for Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not decieved, but the woman was thoroughly decieved and came to be in transgression. 15 However, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and sanctification along with soundness of mind. More to follow to Ricky. And thanks again for the thoughtfullness.
The Holy Spirit speaks to us individually, as we try to communicate with our Heavenly Father, through his Son, our intermediaoter to eternal life.
Ummmm. Not actually in speech. It can help us to clarify our thinking, and lead us to answers, but the Holy Spirit is incapable of actual, physical speech. This is why there are no words directly from the Holy Spirit in the Bible. And that is a very, very important point about Jesus Christ; 1 Timothy 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. So if someone believes in the trinity, this means that God mediates with himself? Not very likely, and goes to show what I meant about the Bible MUST harmonize with itself. By the way, please do not forget what I have shown about where the Trinity came from; Babylon. Nimrod, his wife Samaris and their son, Tammuz (the son of god born on December 25th), made up the first trinity, which then went to Egypt, Greece and etc. It is also very important to note that all of the rituals, dogma and ceremony of the Roman church came from Babylon, as I pointed out in the post on the trinity.
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