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Religion See other Religion Articles Title: Please, help me change. I wonder.... so many are mad about what I have to say about the trinity. So I am asking the 4um to help me change. Below is a message sent to me (by whom it does not matter). I established the guide lines in my message. Please note them. Most everyone who is willing to talk about this ignores Scripture in favor of tradition and selected messages from Scripture. Everything has to be brought in; that is the most important part that I have learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses; the Bible is its own Witness. So let me throw out a couple of other things before we start; Phil. 2:9-11; “For this very reason also God exalted him (Jesus Christ) to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to Him.) John 8:54; “Jesus answered (the Jews): ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’” (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.) There are other Scriptures, where Jesus says that the Father is greater than I, and where Jesus says that He judges, but is instructed in how to judge, and that He does the Will of His Father. I can supply any that you wish. Then, there is this; Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it. The trinity doctrine is accepted throughout the world of organized religion. You need to think about that. Now, let the games begin. You are consumed with over-rating yourself I had to think about this.... so here is your chance to prove your point. Read my tag line. Now, about the trinity. If you can prove me wrong, I will change. I have already proven I am capable of that, because over the last year I have completely changed my outlook and perspective by using the Bible. But there is a caveat to that; if I am right, you have to change. Honestly change. Or.... well, I already told you to read my tag line. So one of us will either change, or, prove that they are dishonest. Up for it? You should be, after all: John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. Now, before you agree or disagree, we need to establish a base line. And that base line is understanding where the trinity teaching came from, which is the Roman church. I have already posted this info, but here is the review; The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4)…. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies…. By the end of the 4th century … the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.” – (1976), Micropaedia, Vol. X, p. 126. Now, that is The New Encyclopedia Britannica, and most consider it a good witness. You will note; By the end of the 4th century Whatever church you belong to, that was before it existed. And further note; nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ In addition; The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies Doctrine. Interesting. So is dogma and tradition. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/167440/doctrine#tab=active~checked% 2Citems~checked&title=doctrine%20and%20dogma%20--%20Britannica%20Online% 20Encyclopedia the explication and officially acceptable version of a religious teaching. The development of doctrines and dogmas has significantly affected the traditions, institutions, and practices of the religions of the world. Would you like me to dig out of the Bible what Jesus Christ said about those who teach traditions to the people, instead of the Word of God? Or should we just go on? Well, we all know that the Roman church is certainly one of the religions of the world, so let's hear from them, esp. as we want another witness; The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. Says the same thing, so we have two good witnesses. In addition, this one says; Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” Amazing. So they admit that the Apostles did not teach the Trinity, which means, since they got their information and learning directly from Jesus Christ, that He did not teach the Trinity. Now, since you claim that He is God Incarnate, please explain this to me...... just for a start; why didn't Jesus Christ teach the trinity? Because the only basis for the trinity teaching is the claim, by the Roman church, of a Divine Revelation. Which means, if you accept the trinity teaching, that you trust the Roman church more than you trust the teachings of Jesus Christ. So please, help me change.
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#2. To: richard9151 (#0)
(Edited)
I don't really see the big deal here. If you don't want to believe in the trinity, then don't. I think it is more important that you believe that Jesus can save you from your sins than understanding the trinity, which I kind of doubt anyone really does understand. Do I believe in the trinity? Yes. Am I Catholic? No. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The word was Jesus. Jesus was with God in the beginning and Jesus was God. Colossians 1:12-20 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Here Jesus is described as the creator of all things, the image of the invisible God. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. It is not the easiest topic to understand but the trinity is not just a Catholic teaching. I believe it even though I don't understand it. I can only go by the scriptures to guide me on this.
I believe that Zeus was the creator of many things but, wasn't Chronos before him? I forgot. Certainly, Zeus was a big deal at one time - and the Titans were quite fascinating. But Zeus died or he became less relevant and Zarathustra's ratings jumped up. Or maybe he transferred to some other galaxy. Or maybe he got himself sucked into a black hole so that he could experience true, subjective eternity at the event horizon. What if our god got sucked into a black hole? Maybe it did happen, which could explain all the problems we're having with the stock markets and everything.
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