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Religion See other Religion Articles Title: Please, help me change. I wonder.... so many are mad about what I have to say about the trinity. So I am asking the 4um to help me change. Below is a message sent to me (by whom it does not matter). I established the guide lines in my message. Please note them. Most everyone who is willing to talk about this ignores Scripture in favor of tradition and selected messages from Scripture. Everything has to be brought in; that is the most important part that I have learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses; the Bible is its own Witness. So let me throw out a couple of other things before we start; Phil. 2:9-11; “For this very reason also God exalted him (Jesus Christ) to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to Him.) John 8:54; “Jesus answered (the Jews): ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’” (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.) There are other Scriptures, where Jesus says that the Father is greater than I, and where Jesus says that He judges, but is instructed in how to judge, and that He does the Will of His Father. I can supply any that you wish. Then, there is this; Matthew 6:13; “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it. The trinity doctrine is accepted throughout the world of organized religion. You need to think about that. Now, let the games begin. You are consumed with over-rating yourself I had to think about this.... so here is your chance to prove your point. Read my tag line. Now, about the trinity. If you can prove me wrong, I will change. I have already proven I am capable of that, because over the last year I have completely changed my outlook and perspective by using the Bible. But there is a caveat to that; if I am right, you have to change. Honestly change. Or.... well, I already told you to read my tag line. So one of us will either change, or, prove that they are dishonest. Up for it? You should be, after all: John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. Now, before you agree or disagree, we need to establish a base line. And that base line is understanding where the trinity teaching came from, which is the Roman church. I have already posted this info, but here is the review; The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4)…. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies…. By the end of the 4th century … the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.” – (1976), Micropaedia, Vol. X, p. 126. Now, that is The New Encyclopedia Britannica, and most consider it a good witness. You will note; By the end of the 4th century Whatever church you belong to, that was before it existed. And further note; nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ In addition; The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies Doctrine. Interesting. So is dogma and tradition. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/167440/doctrine#tab=active~checked% 2Citems~checked&title=doctrine%20and%20dogma%20--%20Britannica%20Online% 20Encyclopedia the explication and officially acceptable version of a religious teaching. The development of doctrines and dogmas has significantly affected the traditions, institutions, and practices of the religions of the world. Would you like me to dig out of the Bible what Jesus Christ said about those who teach traditions to the people, instead of the Word of God? Or should we just go on? Well, we all know that the Roman church is certainly one of the religions of the world, so let's hear from them, esp. as we want another witness; The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. Says the same thing, so we have two good witnesses. In addition, this one says; Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” Amazing. So they admit that the Apostles did not teach the Trinity, which means, since they got their information and learning directly from Jesus Christ, that He did not teach the Trinity. Now, since you claim that He is God Incarnate, please explain this to me...... just for a start; why didn't Jesus Christ teach the trinity? Because the only basis for the trinity teaching is the claim, by the Roman church, of a Divine Revelation. Which means, if you accept the trinity teaching, that you trust the Roman church more than you trust the teachings of Jesus Christ. So please, help me change.
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#11. To: richard9151 (#0)
2 Timothy 4:3 (American Standard Version) Titus 2:1 (American Standard Version) Doctrine is Biblical.
Absolutely.... until it is mixed with dogma and tradition. Then it is something entirely different.
In that case, you don't know the definitions of dogma and tradition.
Th only one that matters; Concerning those who put their traditions ahead of the Scriptures, Jesus said: “Hypocrites! It was you Isaiah meant when he so rightly prophesied: This people honors me only with lip-service, while their hearts are far from me. The worship they offer me is worthless; the doctrines they teach are only human regulations.” -- Matt. 15:7-9.
#18. To: richard9151 (#17)
This is where you are missing something important. Tradition, in the Catholic sense, is "All of those things that the Jesus and the Apostles taught which weren't written down." Not everything makes it to paper. Even the New Testament admits to that when it says things like "And Paul preached all day and all night" but fails to contain the contents of what he was preaching. Tradition fills that gap and the two - Tradition and Scripture - go hand in hand. Put another way, it is in Tradition to use Scripture. The table of contents of the Bible is Tradition, not Scripture, as the table of contents is not contained within written Scripture. You cannot have one without the other.
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