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Religion See other Religion Articles Title: Pagan Christianity I find it interesting how few people understand the Bible. Interesting, but very, very sad as well. We have in our hands a promise from Jehovah God that says we are to be resurrected to live on a paradise earth..... forever. Think about that; forever. Not for a measly 60 or 70 years; FOREVER. Not for a 1,000 years; FOREVER. Not for 10,000 years; FOREVER. Not for a million years; FOREVER!! Now tell me, please, just what is it on this earth that is so important, so interesting, that you would risk FOREVER for?! Please, I want to know, cause I just do not get it. Are the traditions and dogma of the Roman Catholic church that important to you!? You say to me; I ain't Catholic, man! Yet you hold to what the Roman church brought into Christianity with a ferver that belongs to the teachings of Jesus Christ.... but those teachings, you ignore. Just as you ignore the Bible, and if you do open the Bible it is only to find justification for what you wish to do or what you wish to have be so. There are dire warnings in the Bible directed to people who open the Bible, yet do not learn from it. If you have any desire to see what others say about what has happened to Christianity, simply read this post, then, please, think about it. Then, at the site, open up; Finding Organic Church. That is an interesting read! And do you know the amazing thing; everywhere he says organic church, if you simply inserted Jehovah's Witnesses, it would read correctly. Once again, if you have any questions, please ask, privately if you wish. News Update: 2008 NATIONAL HOUSE CHURCH CONFERENCE, August 29-31. Speakers include Frank Viola, Wolfgang Simpson, William P. Young ("The Shack"), Tony and Felicity Dale, etc. For information, go to www.ptmin.org/enewsletter.htm Book Description: Pagan Christianity Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we "dress up" for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices. Many Christians take for granted that their church's practices are rooted in Scripture. Yet those practices look very different from those of the first-century church. The New Testament is not silent on how the early church freely expressed the reality of Christ's indwelling in ways that rocked the first-century world. Times have changed. Pagan Christianity leads us on a fascinating tour through church history, revealing this startling and unsettling truth: Many cherished church traditions embraced today originated not out of the New Testament, but out of pagan practices. One of the most troubling outcomes has been the effect on average believers: turning them from living expressions of Christ's glory and power to passive observers. If you want to see that trend reversed, turn to Pagan Christianity . . . a book that examines and challenges every aspect of our contemporary church experience. Endorsements "Most contemporary Christians are massively ignorant as to how the church got to where it is today and of how much current church practice is due simply to accumulated tradition, with little or no roots in Scripture. This book provides a useful service in peeling back the layers of tradition, showing the origins of much that we today call "church." Christians who want to be biblically faithful, regardless of their particular tradition or church form, can learn and benefit from the book." Howard Snyder, Professor of History and Theology of Mission, Asbury Theological Seminary, author of "The Problem of Wineskins" and "The Community of the King." "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY is an interesting book that will be eye-opening to many and that confronts head-on many unscriptural, unhelpful, pagan aspects of traditional Christianity. At a time when God is clearly 'shaking the foundations' of the way many think about the church, this book is timely and helpful. For this reason I heartily recommend it." Greg Boyd, author of "Letters from a Skeptic," "Myth of a Christian Nation," and "God at War." "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY is a landmark, a true milestone in the overall task of bringing in a new style of responsible, interactive Christianity to replace the old, severely paganized ecclesiastical forms. Frank has done us a great favor, drawing together revealing tidbits from hundreds of sources to create a continuous picture of the formation of today's institutional church. There's nothing like it in print. It is now THE book on church history from the point of view of the underground, open church." James Rutz, author of "Megashift" and "The Open Church." "Anyone interested in the worship of the New Testament church and how that was altered through the centuries will find Frank Viola's PAGAN CHRISTIANITY very useful. The authors' position is clear and quite well documented." Graydon F. Snyder, Professor of New Testament, Chicago Theological Seminary, author of "Ante Pacem: Church Life Before Constantine." "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY contains a wide variety of interesting and helpful historical information of which most Christians - or non-Christians - will be completely unaware. The book identifies - in part or in whole - the pagan roots of many of our current church practices, as well as indicates some borrowed from earlier Jewish or, occasionally, more recent Customs." Robert Banks, New Testament scholar, author of "Paul's Idea of Community" and "The Church Comes Home." "This feisty book attacks the incipient paganism that has been absorbed into historic Christianity over the years. It exposes the syncretistic weak spots in what we assume to be basic in our way of doing church. Thoroughly iconoclastic, it is also at the same time a good apologetic for the house church movement which has strong restorationist impulses. My guess is that it will anger some readers and thrill others. I am one of the latter. Whatever, it won’t be too easy to dismiss as it is really well researched and substantiated. I think it is definitely worth the read even if I do think it is a tad purist in tone. Just don’t drop it–it is likely to explode." Alan Hirsch, author of "The Forgotten Ways" and "The Shaping of Things to Come." "Driving out demons is easy - compared with changing habits and traditions of man that develop into idols, to give us what only God should give us: identity, security, destiny. As in a child, the original God-given conscience is clean and clear. Many new born Christians feel the same and have an automatic feel for what is right. But in the case of organized Evangelicalism in the West, they are swiftly taken into a religious system that basically believes everything that Mom and Pap says -- and happily embrace "church practices" that are not in the Bible. Many just "know" at some point something is terribly wrong with Church-as-they-know-it. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY not only substantiates these ill feelings in millions of Christians with hard facts, but it provides us with a road map for the journey ahead. Once we know where we went wrong, repentance and finding the right way forward comes much easier." Wolfgang Simpson, author of "Houses That Change the World." "As a Christian Artist/Musician I've had a chance to experience many different kinds of churches all over the world, from huge cathedral services to bizarre charismatics and strange Third World stuff to stiff denominationals-- and good and bad "house churches". For nearly 35 years in North America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Australia I've been involved with almost every conceivable kind of Christian expression. I've even served on staff as Worship Pastor at a large church here in the U.S. The result? I've already learned from study and experience what Frank Viola and George Barna have proven by historical documentation in PAGAN CHRISTIANITY: The traditional model of how we "do church" is very wrong -- and it's strangling Christ's Body. No matter where you are in your Christian journey, you need to read this book. It's truth whose time has come. Those who have never experienced His tangible presence as a regular occurrence when they meet will find it hard to believe that there is something more than what they know: It's very hard to walk away from what you've invested your life in when you don't know anything else. And the very grace of God Himself can be confusing: He'll fill whatever cup we lift to Him, no matter how small." Don Francisco, Christian musician/songwriter "It's a great read and my copy has already been STOLEN by my neighbor who is probably just as fascinated in its contents as I was. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY by house church guru Frank Viola and researcher/author George Barna who have teamed up to give us the most thorough treatment yet of the pagan origins of many of our most cherished Sunday church traditions. Actually, Jim Rutz nailed a few of these in his book "Open Church," but Viola and Barna have gone far beyond Rutz, or anyone I know, in exposing more elements of Protestant church traditions to the scrutiny of historical research. Like dressing up for church. Pulpits and 3 point sermons. Clerical dog collars. Church steeples and seminary training. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY lets George Barna unpack his argument why the new Revolutionaries mentioned in his previous book are not rebelling against God by setting up organic house communities. And it gives Frank Viola the chance to put forward his best thinking yet in a series that has already assisted thousands of people in dealing biblically and historically with accusations of "lack of covering" or "neglecting church" or more recently, of adopting "pagan" practices in starting emerging churches. Ha! Watch as Franky and Georgy turn the tables! Controversial? Yes . . . DUH! . . and the backlash has already started. Frank has responded to questions and objections on his site: www.ptmin.org/answers.htm Anyway, the book is a great read. Andrew Jones, tallskinnykiwi.com "Why do we 'do church' the way we do? Most folks seem to assume that our Christian religious trappings can be traced all the way back to the first century. But they can't. The things we hold dear-sacred buildings to meet in, pulpits, sacramental tables, clergy, liturgies, etc.-were unknown among Paul's assemblies. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY looks at our major church traditions and documents when and how they appeared in the ages long after the apostles. Haven't you ever wondered why people dress up in their best clothes for the Sunday morning service? PAGAN CHRISTIANITY unfolds the answer to this and numerous other questions looming in the back of many folks' minds. Reading PAGAN CHRISTIANITY will open your eyes to the fact that the ecclesiastical emperor really has no clothes on." Jon Zens, editor of "Searching Together" "In recent years, an increasing number of us pastors have recognized a major blind spot in the living out of our commitment to a Biblical lifestyle. That blind spot is ecclesiology (the doctrine of the church). As a former Presbyterian pastor, I believe PAGAN CHRISTIANITY will play a vital role in shaping the growing conversation on this subject now and in the future. Well researched and well written, this book is accessible to both church leaders and those formerly known as the laity." John White, former Evangelical Presbyterian pastor; Community Facilitator for LUKE TEN: A Community of Practice for Church Planters Lk10.com/ "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY documents specific areas where contemporary church life violates Biblical principles. It is painful to read because it requires taking a journey beyond the comfort zone of our present paradigms. Whether you agree with all the conclusions the author draws or not, you will have no argument with his documentation. It is a scholarly work with an explosive conclusion. Particularly for those of us in the modern cell church movement, this is a valuable tool to force rethinking the meaning of the word "ecclesia." The Holy Spirit is not pleased with churchianity as we practice it, nor is the watching unchurched world." Ralph W. Neighbour, Jr., author of "Where Do We Go From Here?" and founder of the Cell Church Movement. "Frank Viola and George Barna have teamed up to create an intelligent, readable, and yet challenging work about the historical roots of the many unbiblical modern church practices that hinder Christian growth in quality and church growth in quantity. Anyone who reads Pagan Christianity with an open mind and heart will never see the church the same way again. May those with newly-gained spiritual eyes not stop there, but go on to do something about it." Rad Zdero, Ph.D., Author of "The Global House Church Movement" and Editor of "Nexus: The World House Church Movement Reader." "In PAGAN CHRISTIANITY, Frank Viola deals with where many of our 'traditions' came from - the order of worship, the sermon, the church building, the pastor, tithing, etc. - much of it came from Greek and Roman pagan culture, not from the New Testament. This is a very radical book. I highly recommend it for the careful reading of any serious Christian who has a hint that today's church seems to have strayed from what we see in the New Testament. I pray that every searching Christian will read Frank's books - they are among the best." Nate Krupp, author of "God's Simple Plan for the Church." "Frank has done a masterful job both researching and then weaving together the threads that have made modern church practices what they are - pagan substitutes for authentic church life. One nice thing about PAGAN CHRISTIANITY is that it provides the history behind a perception that many of us Christians share: The way the modern Western church does things has little to do with the organic life we see in the New Testament. The difference is so great sometimes that one wonders how one could possibly have transmuted into the other." Hal Miller, author of "Christian Community: Biblical or Optional?" "Viola has done us a great service by tracing the origin of all we Protestants practice. My one regret is that this book will be only one out of 100,000 Christian books issued in the year it was printed. Three hundred years ago-or even two hundred years ago-PAGAN CHRISTIANITY would have been one of only a few hundred books . . . and therefore, read by a large portion of Christians. You can help remedy this by telling all your friends about this book." Gene Edwards, author of "A Tale of Three Kings." "This is an important book which demonstrates that many of the practical aspects of contemporary church life, ministry and structure have little or no biblical basis and are, in fact, inspired by a wide variety of non Christian patterns and ideas most of which are inimical to Christian life and growth. Many readers will find this book challenging in the extreme but all who are concerned with the future of the church should read it." Dave Norrington, Lecturer of religious studies at Blackpool and the Fylde College, author of "To Preach or Not to Preach" Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 26.
#1. To: richard9151 (#0)
The Orthodox Church is orthodox (correct), catholic (universal), evangelical, charismatic and baptist (all Greek words and concepts by the way). Protestants tend to just focus on one or some of these traits while Orthodoxy is all these things at once.
The only difference between the so-called Orthodox church and the Catholic church is you do not recognize the pope. That pretty much spells it out. As for you, I assume from your rabid defence of the rituals and beliefs of the Orthodox church, that you must be gaining some benefit from such. Would you be by any chance, a priest? The main thing is, the church and its traditions are superior to the Bible/Scripture. And that pretty well spells out everything I need to know. For those interested, see here; http://www.oca.org/
The Orthodox Church predates the scriptures of the NT. The Orthodox Church composed the NT a generation or so after Jesus. Tradition and scriture both are of equal importance because they complement each other. The New Testament was written as a group of letters over different time periods to specific churches already operating without any scriptures. Have you ever wondered why New testaments were not more detailed in their descriptions of what Christianity was of Jesus' nature or what Jesus did before his ministry and other missing information? Because when the letters that became the New Testament were written to specific churches such facts were known via oral tradition. To repeat them to congregations that were already familiar with them was not needed. That is how tradition complements scripture.
Right. That is why your rituals, vestments, saints and etc. so closely tie to Babylon. Honest, I get it.
The Babylon claim is always amusing - it is the Aliens built the pyramids type claim of you types. Did you mean Mithra? Which is Persian in origin. There is no such Babylonian cult that influenced any Western religion.
Right. I understand; I told you that. Having been raised as a Catholic, including attending a catholic grade school, doing the mass bit and confirmation and etc., I get it. OK? I also read. A lot. Little things, like The Two Babylons. Like about Nimrod and his whore wife, Sammaris, and their 'son of god' Tammuz, born on Dec. 25th. You know, the son of god you types worship on Dec. 25th, falsely calling him Jesus. Hey!! As long as you get the people to pony up, who cares, right?! Well, Jehovah does. That is a clue to you and yours. And your traditions that are more important than the revealed Word of God, through His Son, Jesus Christ. The very idea that Jehovah would trust the likes of you and yours to pass on His Word as tradition!! The very idea that He is not powerful enough to see to it that His Word comes down to us in harmony, so that we can learn what is neccessary to find Him, and, I might add, to live in a manner that is pleasing to Him. You are a priest, aren't you. Go ahead, admit it, get it off your chest. After all, are you ashamed of it?
Tammuz was not born on December 25 according to any reputable sources I have read and the Orthodox Church does not say Jesus was born on that day. It is a day set aside for veneration. Birthdays are a modern concept and the ancient world did not record days of birth since few people would know what day it was when a child was born. Days set aside for veneration of saints are selected to honor saints and are not anniversary dates per say. Tammuz is the Arabic and Assyrian name for the month of July used in the Levant and Turkey, and tenth month of the civil year and the fourth month of the ecclesiastical year on the Assyrian and Hebrew calendar. It is a summer month of 29 days in Hebrew calendar and of 31 days in the Assyrian one. The name of the month was adopted from the Babylonian/Assyrian calendars, in which the month was named after one of the main Babylonian gods, Tammuz (Sumerian: Dumuzid) and known as Month of Harvesting (Not December - so don't you feel stupid now?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz_(month) Wacky mixed up Protestants...
???????????????????????????????? Who cares? That day was picked for obvious reasons; winter soltise. It is simply a TRADITION to mark the day of the birth of the son of god. Concerning those who put their traditions ahead of the Scriptures, Jesus said: “Hypocrites! It was you Isaiah meant when he so rightly prophesied: This people honors me only with lip-service, while their hearts are far from me. The worship they offer me is worthless; the doctrines they teach are only human regulations.” -- Matt. 15:7-9. That is all I need to know. You are welcome to your traditions, and, to the judgment you will face for the promotion of same.
???????????????????????????????? Who cares? It was your claim, fool!!! Here are your words: I also read. A lot. Little things, like The Two Babylons. Like about Nimrod and his whore wife, Sammaris, and their 'son of god' Tammuz, born on Dec. 25th. Your passage states that blind service is meaningless if you don't mean it. It is not an attack on having rituals just on performing them without faith. That is why Orthodox are urged to only take the body and blood of Christ after confession and repentance.
Don't piece the words out. Reply to all of it; That day was picked for obvious reasons; winter soltise. It is simply a TRADITION to mark the day of the birth of the son of god. ------------------------------------ It is not an attack on having rituals just on performing them without faith. Bulls---. It is a condemnation of using tradition instead of the Word of God, and placing the tradition higher than the Word of God, just as the Roman church does, and just as you do. And if that were not the case, you could never call on the divine trinity. As I posted at the beginning of this thread, and which you condemned for using the Bible to disprove the 'divine trinity.'
There was no written scripture by of for Jesus until generations later. The Church began on Pentecost - the 50 days after Jesus rose from the dead and was with the Apostles. To the Orthodox Church tradition is the word of God and scripture came afterwards. To European origin Protestants - they adopted Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus so unlike the Apostolic churches Protestant churches do not have any relation with the Christ when he returned from the dead in their traditions.
That would be funny if I was in a laughing mood. There is to much evidence of dating Scriptures for anyone who understands what happened to swallow what you say. I have books on the subject. And what you say, secondly, blames the Almighty God for an inability to protect His Word. After everything He has caused to be written about the problems of men, that you would even claim that tradition is acceptable; oral tradition, in place of His written record, speaks volume about your mindset, and your adherence to tradition over His Word. But as you write more, I do see more. I grant you that. I thank Him every day for His guidance and help in permitting me to see His plan so clearly, or at least as clearly as is possible for me. And you are certainly helping me to do that!
Nope. The written word is scripture - spoken word is oral TRADITION. When only the word existed the church operated under the oral traditions of the Church which banned practices such as circumcision and kosher foods without any thing appearing on paper. The age and the origins of the New Testament are well established. They are written years after the fact when the Church had already spread far and wide without anything on paper.
Right. How silly of me not to understand. So, when Paul sent a letter to the, ummmmmmmmmmm, to-many-different-to-mention-different-ones, he used, what, a pigeon? Or maybe there were men who had exceptional memories, and he just spoke to them and THEY took the letter, orally, to whomever. I think now I get it; that is how it all worked way-back-then, with those dumba- - backwards people who did not know how to write. And then there is the testimony of the third century theologian Origen, who suggests that Mattew was the first to write a Gospel; "The first is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a publican, but afterwards an Apostel of Jesus Christ, who having published it for the Jewish converts, wrote it in the Hebrew." Want a diffention for publican? OK. In antiquity, publicans (Latin publicanus (singular); publicani (plural)) were public contractors, in which role they often supplied the Roman legions and military, managed the collection of port duties, and oversaw public building projects. In addition, they served as tax collectors for the Republic (and later the Roman Empire), bidding on contracts (from the Senate in Rome) for the collection of various types of taxes. Importantly, this role as tax collectors was not emphasized until late into the history of the Republic (c. 1st century BC). The publicans were usually of the class of equites. And you are going to tell me that such a man could not read or write, correct? But then, what I thought you were going to bring up was the mythical document called Q. Was I ready for that one! What do you think, that you are dealing with a neophyte?
#28. To: richard9151 (#26)
(Edited)
Actually, he is well aware he is dealing with a nincompoop. You know, that little old word derived from the Latin "non compos mentis," which means someone not of a sound mind, numpty.
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