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Religion See other Religion Articles Title: Pagan Christianity I find it interesting how few people understand the Bible. Interesting, but very, very sad as well. We have in our hands a promise from Jehovah God that says we are to be resurrected to live on a paradise earth..... forever. Think about that; forever. Not for a measly 60 or 70 years; FOREVER. Not for a 1,000 years; FOREVER. Not for 10,000 years; FOREVER. Not for a million years; FOREVER!! Now tell me, please, just what is it on this earth that is so important, so interesting, that you would risk FOREVER for?! Please, I want to know, cause I just do not get it. Are the traditions and dogma of the Roman Catholic church that important to you!? You say to me; I ain't Catholic, man! Yet you hold to what the Roman church brought into Christianity with a ferver that belongs to the teachings of Jesus Christ.... but those teachings, you ignore. Just as you ignore the Bible, and if you do open the Bible it is only to find justification for what you wish to do or what you wish to have be so. There are dire warnings in the Bible directed to people who open the Bible, yet do not learn from it. If you have any desire to see what others say about what has happened to Christianity, simply read this post, then, please, think about it. Then, at the site, open up; Finding Organic Church. That is an interesting read! And do you know the amazing thing; everywhere he says organic church, if you simply inserted Jehovah's Witnesses, it would read correctly. Once again, if you have any questions, please ask, privately if you wish. News Update: 2008 NATIONAL HOUSE CHURCH CONFERENCE, August 29-31. Speakers include Frank Viola, Wolfgang Simpson, William P. Young ("The Shack"), Tony and Felicity Dale, etc. For information, go to www.ptmin.org/enewsletter.htm Book Description: Pagan Christianity Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we "dress up" for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices. Many Christians take for granted that their church's practices are rooted in Scripture. Yet those practices look very different from those of the first-century church. The New Testament is not silent on how the early church freely expressed the reality of Christ's indwelling in ways that rocked the first-century world. Times have changed. Pagan Christianity leads us on a fascinating tour through church history, revealing this startling and unsettling truth: Many cherished church traditions embraced today originated not out of the New Testament, but out of pagan practices. One of the most troubling outcomes has been the effect on average believers: turning them from living expressions of Christ's glory and power to passive observers. If you want to see that trend reversed, turn to Pagan Christianity . . . a book that examines and challenges every aspect of our contemporary church experience. Endorsements "Most contemporary Christians are massively ignorant as to how the church got to where it is today and of how much current church practice is due simply to accumulated tradition, with little or no roots in Scripture. This book provides a useful service in peeling back the layers of tradition, showing the origins of much that we today call "church." Christians who want to be biblically faithful, regardless of their particular tradition or church form, can learn and benefit from the book." Howard Snyder, Professor of History and Theology of Mission, Asbury Theological Seminary, author of "The Problem of Wineskins" and "The Community of the King." "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY is an interesting book that will be eye-opening to many and that confronts head-on many unscriptural, unhelpful, pagan aspects of traditional Christianity. At a time when God is clearly 'shaking the foundations' of the way many think about the church, this book is timely and helpful. For this reason I heartily recommend it." Greg Boyd, author of "Letters from a Skeptic," "Myth of a Christian Nation," and "God at War." "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY is a landmark, a true milestone in the overall task of bringing in a new style of responsible, interactive Christianity to replace the old, severely paganized ecclesiastical forms. Frank has done us a great favor, drawing together revealing tidbits from hundreds of sources to create a continuous picture of the formation of today's institutional church. There's nothing like it in print. It is now THE book on church history from the point of view of the underground, open church." James Rutz, author of "Megashift" and "The Open Church." "Anyone interested in the worship of the New Testament church and how that was altered through the centuries will find Frank Viola's PAGAN CHRISTIANITY very useful. The authors' position is clear and quite well documented." Graydon F. Snyder, Professor of New Testament, Chicago Theological Seminary, author of "Ante Pacem: Church Life Before Constantine." "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY contains a wide variety of interesting and helpful historical information of which most Christians - or non-Christians - will be completely unaware. The book identifies - in part or in whole - the pagan roots of many of our current church practices, as well as indicates some borrowed from earlier Jewish or, occasionally, more recent Customs." Robert Banks, New Testament scholar, author of "Paul's Idea of Community" and "The Church Comes Home." "This feisty book attacks the incipient paganism that has been absorbed into historic Christianity over the years. It exposes the syncretistic weak spots in what we assume to be basic in our way of doing church. Thoroughly iconoclastic, it is also at the same time a good apologetic for the house church movement which has strong restorationist impulses. My guess is that it will anger some readers and thrill others. I am one of the latter. Whatever, it won’t be too easy to dismiss as it is really well researched and substantiated. I think it is definitely worth the read even if I do think it is a tad purist in tone. Just don’t drop it–it is likely to explode." Alan Hirsch, author of "The Forgotten Ways" and "The Shaping of Things to Come." "Driving out demons is easy - compared with changing habits and traditions of man that develop into idols, to give us what only God should give us: identity, security, destiny. As in a child, the original God-given conscience is clean and clear. Many new born Christians feel the same and have an automatic feel for what is right. But in the case of organized Evangelicalism in the West, they are swiftly taken into a religious system that basically believes everything that Mom and Pap says -- and happily embrace "church practices" that are not in the Bible. Many just "know" at some point something is terribly wrong with Church-as-they-know-it. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY not only substantiates these ill feelings in millions of Christians with hard facts, but it provides us with a road map for the journey ahead. Once we know where we went wrong, repentance and finding the right way forward comes much easier." Wolfgang Simpson, author of "Houses That Change the World." "As a Christian Artist/Musician I've had a chance to experience many different kinds of churches all over the world, from huge cathedral services to bizarre charismatics and strange Third World stuff to stiff denominationals-- and good and bad "house churches". For nearly 35 years in North America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Australia I've been involved with almost every conceivable kind of Christian expression. I've even served on staff as Worship Pastor at a large church here in the U.S. The result? I've already learned from study and experience what Frank Viola and George Barna have proven by historical documentation in PAGAN CHRISTIANITY: The traditional model of how we "do church" is very wrong -- and it's strangling Christ's Body. No matter where you are in your Christian journey, you need to read this book. It's truth whose time has come. Those who have never experienced His tangible presence as a regular occurrence when they meet will find it hard to believe that there is something more than what they know: It's very hard to walk away from what you've invested your life in when you don't know anything else. And the very grace of God Himself can be confusing: He'll fill whatever cup we lift to Him, no matter how small." Don Francisco, Christian musician/songwriter "It's a great read and my copy has already been STOLEN by my neighbor who is probably just as fascinated in its contents as I was. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY by house church guru Frank Viola and researcher/author George Barna who have teamed up to give us the most thorough treatment yet of the pagan origins of many of our most cherished Sunday church traditions. Actually, Jim Rutz nailed a few of these in his book "Open Church," but Viola and Barna have gone far beyond Rutz, or anyone I know, in exposing more elements of Protestant church traditions to the scrutiny of historical research. Like dressing up for church. Pulpits and 3 point sermons. Clerical dog collars. Church steeples and seminary training. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY lets George Barna unpack his argument why the new Revolutionaries mentioned in his previous book are not rebelling against God by setting up organic house communities. And it gives Frank Viola the chance to put forward his best thinking yet in a series that has already assisted thousands of people in dealing biblically and historically with accusations of "lack of covering" or "neglecting church" or more recently, of adopting "pagan" practices in starting emerging churches. Ha! Watch as Franky and Georgy turn the tables! Controversial? Yes . . . DUH! . . and the backlash has already started. Frank has responded to questions and objections on his site: www.ptmin.org/answers.htm Anyway, the book is a great read. Andrew Jones, tallskinnykiwi.com "Why do we 'do church' the way we do? Most folks seem to assume that our Christian religious trappings can be traced all the way back to the first century. But they can't. The things we hold dear-sacred buildings to meet in, pulpits, sacramental tables, clergy, liturgies, etc.-were unknown among Paul's assemblies. PAGAN CHRISTIANITY looks at our major church traditions and documents when and how they appeared in the ages long after the apostles. Haven't you ever wondered why people dress up in their best clothes for the Sunday morning service? PAGAN CHRISTIANITY unfolds the answer to this and numerous other questions looming in the back of many folks' minds. Reading PAGAN CHRISTIANITY will open your eyes to the fact that the ecclesiastical emperor really has no clothes on." Jon Zens, editor of "Searching Together" "In recent years, an increasing number of us pastors have recognized a major blind spot in the living out of our commitment to a Biblical lifestyle. That blind spot is ecclesiology (the doctrine of the church). As a former Presbyterian pastor, I believe PAGAN CHRISTIANITY will play a vital role in shaping the growing conversation on this subject now and in the future. Well researched and well written, this book is accessible to both church leaders and those formerly known as the laity." John White, former Evangelical Presbyterian pastor; Community Facilitator for LUKE TEN: A Community of Practice for Church Planters Lk10.com/ "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY documents specific areas where contemporary church life violates Biblical principles. It is painful to read because it requires taking a journey beyond the comfort zone of our present paradigms. Whether you agree with all the conclusions the author draws or not, you will have no argument with his documentation. It is a scholarly work with an explosive conclusion. Particularly for those of us in the modern cell church movement, this is a valuable tool to force rethinking the meaning of the word "ecclesia." The Holy Spirit is not pleased with churchianity as we practice it, nor is the watching unchurched world." Ralph W. Neighbour, Jr., author of "Where Do We Go From Here?" and founder of the Cell Church Movement. "Frank Viola and George Barna have teamed up to create an intelligent, readable, and yet challenging work about the historical roots of the many unbiblical modern church practices that hinder Christian growth in quality and church growth in quantity. Anyone who reads Pagan Christianity with an open mind and heart will never see the church the same way again. May those with newly-gained spiritual eyes not stop there, but go on to do something about it." Rad Zdero, Ph.D., Author of "The Global House Church Movement" and Editor of "Nexus: The World House Church Movement Reader." "In PAGAN CHRISTIANITY, Frank Viola deals with where many of our 'traditions' came from - the order of worship, the sermon, the church building, the pastor, tithing, etc. - much of it came from Greek and Roman pagan culture, not from the New Testament. This is a very radical book. I highly recommend it for the careful reading of any serious Christian who has a hint that today's church seems to have strayed from what we see in the New Testament. I pray that every searching Christian will read Frank's books - they are among the best." Nate Krupp, author of "God's Simple Plan for the Church." "Frank has done a masterful job both researching and then weaving together the threads that have made modern church practices what they are - pagan substitutes for authentic church life. One nice thing about PAGAN CHRISTIANITY is that it provides the history behind a perception that many of us Christians share: The way the modern Western church does things has little to do with the organic life we see in the New Testament. The difference is so great sometimes that one wonders how one could possibly have transmuted into the other." Hal Miller, author of "Christian Community: Biblical or Optional?" "Viola has done us a great service by tracing the origin of all we Protestants practice. My one regret is that this book will be only one out of 100,000 Christian books issued in the year it was printed. Three hundred years ago-or even two hundred years ago-PAGAN CHRISTIANITY would have been one of only a few hundred books . . . and therefore, read by a large portion of Christians. You can help remedy this by telling all your friends about this book." Gene Edwards, author of "A Tale of Three Kings." "This is an important book which demonstrates that many of the practical aspects of contemporary church life, ministry and structure have little or no biblical basis and are, in fact, inspired by a wide variety of non Christian patterns and ideas most of which are inimical to Christian life and growth. Many readers will find this book challenging in the extreme but all who are concerned with the future of the church should read it." Dave Norrington, Lecturer of religious studies at Blackpool and the Fylde College, author of "To Preach or Not to Preach" Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 43.
#3. To: richard9151 (#0)
I've Converted To EVERY Religion (Just In Case)
As long as you believe that is what is neccessary to gain the promises of Almighty God, go for it...... IF, that is to say, you actually believe in Almighty God.
That video is satire. Personally, I have zero use for Christianity. I don't need to be Muslim, Jewish or any other major faith at all. I respect the rights of those in other religions, however quite often the courtesy is not reciprocated at all. And some Christians can be especially arrogant and annoying in that regard.
This is true Mikey. Do you know of any like that? LOL!! And I was being nice; I have not said a single thing to you about UpChuck Obama, AND I WANTED TO!!! LOL!!
Now you are blurring the political with the religious aspect of people which is what I was referring to. And you are seldom nice about anything.
No, I am not. I dislike ignorance, but more than that, I dislike deliberate stupidity. Such as choosing the lessor of two evils, while you wallow in the election fervor. All evidence to the contrary not-with-standing. There are a number of people in the 4um that I respect. They understand, and look for knowledge. The rest? Give me a break. I posted all of the details about the basis of the income tax, and why you CAN NOT DE-TAX! It is a contract. All I hear is, BUT MAN, THERE AIN'T NO LAW SAYS I GOTS TO PAY IT!!!! Yes, there is; in the Constitution, it says; contracts will be enforced. A number of people in 4um have posted excellent info about the deflation that is coming. What do I hear in 4um? ARE YOU READY FOR HYPERINFLATION? Not possible in this system, but rather than study and learn, 'they' can't change. Nope. I am not nice, but I am right about 99+% of the time. You might should think about that some. If, that is, you ever want answers instead of opinions.
Well then get help. I am not a mental health specialist and I can't help your problem here of self loathing. You are also never going to be smart, nor informed in any deep sense, get help accepting that too from a professional. You just embarrass yourself with your skewed logic and lack of command of the facts. That is your problem not mine.
LOL!! I did not get it!! Silly me!! YOU'RE A TRINATARIAN!! There are those days when I is just slllloooooowwww........ This must be one of em. So let me see if I understand.... 1. You 'believe' in the Trinity, but you don't understand it.... 2. But that's all right, cause no one does..... understand it, I mean. 3. Including those who promote it, teach it, and write about it. And if you want chapter and verse on that, be glad to supply it, cause the net is FULL of such info...... directly from those who promote the trinity teachings. 4. So since no one understands it, it is PERFECTLY all right for you to believe in it. I mean, you believe in ol Obambam too, right? 5. (Now, here comes the tricky part.) You have never proven it to yourself in the Bible, cause, I mean, those who teach it, and promote it, and write about it can't prove it in the Bible, so, why should you?! THAT is certainly no reason NOT TO BELIEVE!!! (By the way, did you know that to believe is opposed to knowledge and science? Just curious, that's all.) 6. Course, there, when someone ACTUALLY OPENS A BIBLE, and finds that the trinity teaching is directly opposed to the Bible, THAT IS WHEN WE LEARN THAT TRADITION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE BIBLE. Oh, and more important than the teachings of the Christ Jesus. You know, the one where we get our name; Christians? 7. AND, you have heard it said that there are verses in the Bible which PROVE the trinity. Ummmm, course, of all of those verses, ONLY 1 verse, the baptism verse, has all three entityies listed in it. ALL OF THE REST OF THE VERSES, like John 1:1, list only TWO; the Father and the Word (as Jesus Christ). Strange, isn't it, that John is said to PROVE the trinity, when it only has two. BUT THIS IS JUST MORE OF THE 'MYSTERY'!!!!!!! 7. And then, we have the beginning, when we are told that we are made in 'their' image. Again, only two, but what the hey! I guess this means that the only ones sane on this planet are those with multiple personalities. Cause they have to have at LEAST THREE, to be the same as the trinity. That means that you and I are just nuts... whoops, sorry, I would bet this means that you and Destro have the needed personalities! THIS IS WHY YOU 'BELIEVE' AND I DO NOT!!! Thank you, Mikey, I think I is finally getting it. DO NOT READ THE BIBLE. DO NOT TRUST THE BIBLE. DO NOT THINK FOR YOURSELF. ACCEPT THE MYSTERY, CAUSE MEN HAVE TOLD US IT IS SO!! ABOVE ALL ELSE, TRUST MEN, CAUSE THE CONDITION OF THE EARTH PROVES THAT THIS IS THE BEST PLAN SINCE IT IS SO OBVIOUS THAT MEN KNOW EVERYTHING!! AND FINALLY, PAY NO ATTENTION TO GOD, CAUSE HE DID NOT WRITE ABOUT IT IN THE TWO THOUSAND YEARS PRIOR TO THE REVELATION OF THE TRINITY (while He was causing the Bible to be written) SO WE WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND AND IT WOULD TEST OUR FAITH!!!! Evil, isn't he; if you believe that. Alrighty, mikey, since I never have my facts straight, lead me here and show me my error.
I am not Christian, I am of Wicca. I sure know what the trinity is, I was born in a Catholic family. But what I was forced to deal with as a minor before I could make clear I was not a Christian and celebrate my religious autonomy at my age of majority at 18 years is my family's baggage, not mine.
Ferret many Catholics turn on their faith. I don't blame them. Catholicism is a cult just like the Jehovas witnesses. Go read the Bible again. Pray to God in Jesus name and seek him. You will find the truth.
You really are something! Who the fuck are you to be calling Catholicism a cult? What a big butt plug you are jerko. Are you a commie, a joo, or a paid mcinsane shill? One thing you ain't is you ain't right.
The catholic cult changed the 10 commandments so they can practice idolatry. They also pray to mary. A cult alright.
You bush/mcinsane/palin/joo worshipers are a cult alright and you are a perfect asshole to boot.
www.historicist.com/ articles3/rapturecult.htm Christian Zionists like to say that Catholics, Orthodox, and others aren't "real" Christians. Since Christian Zionism is at most 150 years old (it dates to the time of the Scofield Reference Bible), that would mean that there hasn't been any "real" Christianity for 1800+ years since the death of Christ. Every heretic likes to claim to be the only "real" or "authentic" Christian. Especially when that heretic wants to turn Christianity into Judaism.
I don't know enough about Orthodox personally to criticize them. The Bible goes back furhter then 150 years slow one.
The Scofield Reference Bible, which created the Rapture Cult and Christian Zionism, is barely 100 years old.
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