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Title: Judge denies stay, orders discovery of Obama's birth certificates
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 9, 2008
Author: Starwind
Post Date: 2008-10-09 12:18:48 by Starwind
Keywords: None
Views: 2927
Comments: 101

Follow it free at BERG v. OBAMA et al (Justia) (not updated yet)

Follow it via Pacer at United States District Court Eastern District of Pennsylvania (Philadelphia) CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 2:08-cv-04083-RBS (current as of this AM)

This AM, Judge R. Barclay Surrick, J. ordered (document #18):

ORDERED and DECREED as follows:

1. Defendants Motion for Protective Order Staying Discovery pending the Court's Decision on Defendants dispositive Motion is DENIED;
2. Defendants are hereby ORDERED to Answer Plaintiff's Discovery Requests by way of Admissions and Request for Production of Documents by October 15, 2008.

Poster Comment:

This could be a game changer.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

#1. To: Starwind (#0)

Yep......operative word is COULD. So often, everyone gets disappointed cause things come to naught.

I'm not planning to hold my breath.....LOL.

Great to see you posting Starwind. Miss your great comments.

rowdee  posted on  2008-10-09   12:32:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It is rather odd someone would have a problem with producing their birth certificate.

It does seem as tho if one is running for President they would understand the laws.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   12:34:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

From the Pacer filing:

Defendants, Barack H. Obama and the Democratic National Committee are ORDERED to turn over the following documents by October 15, 2008:

1. A certified copy of Obama's "vault" (original long version) birth certificate;

2. Certified copies of all reissued and sealed birth certificates of Obama in the names referred to in the caption of this lawsuit;

3. A certified copy of Obama's Certification of Citizenship;

4. A certified copy of Obama's Oath of Allegiance taken upon age of majority;

5. Certified copies of Obama's Application and Admission forms for Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School; and

6. Certified copies of any Court Orders or legal documents changing Obama's name from Barry Soetoro to Barack Hussein Obama.

Defendant, Barack Hussein Obama is ORDERED to serve upon Plaintiff Answers to the following Request for Admissions by October 15, 2008:

Admissions, Request No. 1. Admit you were born in Kenya.

Admissions, Request No. 2. Admit you are a Kenya "natural born" citizen.

Admissions, Request No. 3. Admit your foreign birth was registered in the State of Hawaii.

Admissions, Request No. 4. Admit your name was legally changed to Barry Soetoro and citizenship status was changed to "natural citizen" of Indonesia.

Admissions, Request No. 5. Admit you were adopted by Lolo Soetoro, M.A. a citizen of Indonesia.

Admissions, Request No. 6. Admit Lolo Soetoro, M.A. a citizen of Indonesia. Signed a Government "Acknowledgement" form legally acknowledging you as his son.

Admissions, Request No. 7. Admit you are an Indonesian citizen.

Admissions, Request No. 8. Admit you are currently not a "natural born" United States citizen.

Defendant, the Democratic National Committee is ORDERED to serve upon Plaintiff Answers to the following Request for Admissions by October 15, 2008:

Admissions, Request No. 1. Admit you have not verified Barrack Hussein Obama's eligibility to serve as President of the United States.

Admissions, Request No. 2. Admit Barrack Hussein Obama was born in Kenya.

Admissions, Request No. 3. Admit Barack Hussein Obama's citizenship status was changed to a "natural" citizen of Indonesia when his stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, M.A. legally "acknowledged" Obama as his son.

Admissions, Request No. 4. Admit Barack Hussein Obama's name was legally changed to Barry Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen.

Admissions, Request No. 5. Admit Barrack Hussein Obama is not a "natural born" United States citizen.

Admissions, Request No. 6: Admit you have not inquired into Barrack Hussein Obama's citizenship status.

Admissions, Request No. 7. Admit the United States Constitution does not allow for a Person to hold the Office of President of the United States unless that person is a "natural born" United States citizen.

Admissions, Request No. 8. Admit you collected donations on behalf of Barack Hussein Obama for his Presidential campaign.

Admissions, Request No. 9. Admit the DNC has promised Plaintiff and all American citizens that the DNC will ensure Open and Honest Government and uphold the United States Constitution to protect the United States citizens.

----------------
[Starwind: note in the above 'admissions', the Judge is ordering responses to Berg's assertions, i.e. the Judge is not ordering they 'admit the truth' of Berg's assertions, only that they answer and those answers (whatever they are, including denials) will be 'admitted as testimony'.]

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-09   12:40:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It is rather odd someone would have a problem with producing their birth certificate.

True. I know exactly where mine is and could provide it within hours if necessary.

duckhunter  posted on  2008-10-09   12:45:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

One minute here.

In file cabinet next to me puter.

filed under...OTHER...

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   12:48:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I know exactly where mine is and could provide it within hours if necessary.

I couldn't provide mine if my very life depended on it.

Iran Truth Now!

Lod  posted on  2008-10-09   12:54:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Lod is an illegal most likely.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   12:57:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Most days, I wish that I were...the advantages of being totally 'under the radar' much outweigh being a 'citizen.'

Iran Truth Now!

Lod  posted on  2008-10-09   12:59:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I couldn't provide mine if my very life depended on it.

On a good day, I'm lucky if I can remember where I put my car keys.

I wonder though - if Obummer were disqualified, would Biden have to run in his place, or would the DNC find some way to replace him with Hillary?

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-10-09   12:59:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I have a new scam...

Ran off an urgent letter to my Congress thief begging for another stimulus package, only larger. I told him I needed a new roof. Actually I want a vacation in Mexico.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   13:02:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ran off an urgent letter to my Congress thief begging for another stimulus package, only larger. I told him I needed a new roof. Actually I want a vacation in Mexico.

Your letter to the Congressman would be more effective if you were Mexican, as opposed to wanting to vacation in Mexico. You should have signed the letter "Cynicompadre."

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-10-09   13:04:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So often, everyone gets disappointed cause things come to naught.

Indeed. The wheels of Justice grind slowly, and often go flat (e.g. Libby's pardon and the end of Plamegate investigation).

In this case, it would not have gotten this far if there weren't a lot of evidence demonstrating ambiguity of Obama's status. Further, this isn't a case that can be pardoned away. It could only be suppressed on appeal, and I don't see the basis for Obama prevail on appeal to prevent discovery.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-09   13:06:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Your letter to the Congressman would be more effective if you were Mexican,

Now you tell me.

After this, try to anticipate when I need help.

If the Wall St. people can swindle the government out of billions, I deserve a few bucks for vacation.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   13:06:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I couldn't provide mine if my very life depended on it.

They didn't invent them til the 20th Century ... yours is probably etched on the side of a mountain somewhere !

Don't worry ... Cynicom can vouch for ya !

noone222  posted on  2008-10-09   13:06:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This could be a game changer.

hmmmm..i've been saying all along that this wasn't going anywhere since it's been an issue in question from the beginning of obama's candidacy. more than likely, nothing will though. it's getting crunch time since the election is only 4 wks away. i know there has been much speculation on the net that this is a plan by the PTB to unseat obama and replace him with guess who.

Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com

christine  posted on  2008-10-09   13:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They didn't invent them til the 20th Century ... yours is probably etched on the side of a mountain somewhere !

Don't worry ... Cynicom can vouch for ya !

Lod....

You gonna put up with that disrespect from kids??????

Dig out your Civil War uniform and.....uhhh, never mind.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   13:11:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

i know there has been much speculation on the net that this is a plan by the PTB to unseat obama and replace him with guess who.

Replace him with ummmm... hmmmm... let me think... Ron Paul?

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-09   13:12:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Check Post 14 here for possible banning. Just horrible.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   13:14:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

noone's skatin' on thin ice here. ;P

Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com

christine  posted on  2008-10-09   13:25:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I wonder though - if Obummer were disqualified, would Biden have to run in his place, or would the DNC find some way to replace him with Hillary?

Excellent question.

I would think that they'd go to the next highest vote-getter - the shrill one.

Iran Truth Now!

Lod  posted on  2008-10-09   13:29:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I've got one around here somewhere, but in any event the hospital and the County Registrar of Births would have an "original" on file. I could have a certified duplicate within 2 weeks. They also produce a Wallet-sized one which I used to carry with me, but managed to lose it when I changed wallets.

"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken

Original_Intent  posted on  2008-10-09   13:35:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I can't imagine ever needing one, especially since I'm not getting a passport or flying any more.

It will be interesting to see if this brings BHO down...

Iran Truth Now!

Lod  posted on  2008-10-09   13:40:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

game changer.

You think, it's not covered much, and frankly, I don't think anyone cares.

Obama has inoculated himself so well that all this is preaching to the choir.

Why won't this work? Because Stanley Dunham Obama Soetero was an American, and all the quibbling over where Obama was born won't matter to most, and government regulations of the time stipulating the birth mother must reside in the US for this period or that, before or after the birth, strike most as irrelevant.

It's the diving market and only that right now.

McCain has two hopes, market gains 3K, or some war flares up.

swarthyguy  posted on  2008-10-09   13:40:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Check Post 14 here for possible banning. Just horrible.

I knew you were a Jew !!! [An old one at that !]

Ha hahahahaha !!!

noone222  posted on  2008-10-09   13:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ha hahahahaha !!!

Today is your lucky day, I told Christine you were a fellow tar heeler and to cut you some slack.

See...

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-09   13:46:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I've got one around here somewhere, but in any event the hospital and the County Registrar of Births would have an "original" on file. I could have a certified duplicate within 2 weeks. They also produce a Wallet-sized one which I used to carry with me, but managed to lose it when I changed wallets.

Assuming the Socialists don't burn all the files if not make them unaccessible / hard to get just to 'code' everyone in a 'tamper proof' way. ;-)

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2008-10-09   13:47:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

IT is indeed interesting that the judge, rather than just tossing the case out or declaring he has no standing or some other horsepockey reason to stymie the very real questions, has given them a week to come up with some answers.

I think maybe I am starting to see some that is sort of being alluded to, or suggested.

rowdee  posted on  2008-10-10   13:06:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A news blog has now picked up the story:

Obama's Citizenship?:

I have just recently found a lawsuit being "fought" to determine the citizenship of Barack Obama. I simply cannot believe the mainstream media has not informed the Country of the presence and details of this lawsuit.

[Starwind: lol - go figure]

[...snip...] The heart of the lawsuit appears to be a request Obama produce: (1). "Obama's "vault" version (certified copy of his "original" long version) birth certificate; (2). A certified copy of Obama's Certificate of Citizenship; (3). A certified copy of Obama's oath of allegiance. Apparently Obama has refused to supply such documents. He has recently been ordered by the Court to produce the documents. [....snip]

And the Justia copy of the dockett has been updated:
http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/ pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/

and the Crt Order I excerpted above can be down loaded free from Justia:
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/ district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/18/0.pdf

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-10   16:41:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A conservative news/comment site has picked up the story:

Finally! It's Berg vs Obama In Federal Court!

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-10   19:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ping to Starwind's #28 and #29.

Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com

christine  posted on  2008-10-11   16:05:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's another:

This could be the game changer

There is a youtube video at the link from "illuminati productions" about Obama's questioned birth certificates. I've not seen the full video, only first couple of minutes, .... youtube seems to hang a lot lately. The video is:

"I Invented The Internet (Ep. 6: October Surprise)"

at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA6_k3NtXZs

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-11   19:33:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Good stuff Star, thanks.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-10-11   19:40:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Good stuff Star, thanks.

Enjoy... but I gather everyone has been.

lol - I just now realized the video "I Invented The Internet (Ep. 6: October Surprise)" is the "October Surprise" video everyone is posting about hither and yon.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-11   20:04:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So I have now seen the full "October Surprise" video. I watched at a different link than I posted above :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyspCRmJv7w&NR=1

(but it seems identical to "I Invented The Internet (Ep. 6: October Surprise)" linked in my post #31)

Note carefully, the video was made before the Judge denied Obama's move to stay discovery, and the Judge just two days ago Ordered Obama and the DNC to produce the documents and answer the questions as part of Berg's discovery. The Judge gave Obama until Wednesday, Oct 15th to provide documents and answers. Given a couple days grace, by Friday Obama will:
a) Appeal, which in itself will be newsworthy
b) Provide answers, which will again be newsworthy
c) do nothing, missing the deadline, which will again be newsworthy

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-11   21:37:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Where's Obama's proof of citizenship?

The "October Surprise" video is linked therein, and the Examiner journalist, Dan Spencer, does not seem to be aware that since then the Judge has Ordered Obama to answer Berg's discovery requests.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-12   11:01:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Barack Obama's Secretive Nature

This report links, and is another that seems 'triggered' by, the "October Surprise" video.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-12   12:57:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Even when the document is entered into evidence and all can see that he was indeed born on Hawai'i, you can always argue that as Hawai'i is admittedly illegally seized and conquered territory anyone born there has no constitutional standing to serve as POTUS.

Just as the Democrats could have vigorously fought McCain's eligibility fir this office based on his birth in Panama. They had the good character not to, and the Rove World/Swift Boat world producing this bizarre and pointless lawsuit shows they are character deficit.

This is a side show and a tempest in a teapot. It has gone nowhere and will go nowhere. That's just how it is.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-12   13:38:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Barry Hussein is NTBT - not to be trusted. I'll never refer to his ilk as 'president.'

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-10-12   13:45:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That's just how it is.

agreed...

Just have Obango show the birth certificate, settle the matter.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-10-12   13:45:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

great video, thanks.

farmfriend  posted on  2008-10-12   14:14:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here is an international news report, referencing Berg's lawsuit and a video but no link, and seemingly unaware yet that Berg has prevailed in court ordered discovery.

Obama Born In Kenya? His Grandmother Says Yes

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-12   21:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Barry Hussein is NTBT - not to be trusted. I'll never refer to his ilk as 'president.'

And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot

Dakmar  posted on  2008-10-12   21:32:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Great to see you posting Starwind. Miss your great comments.

Likewise.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-12   21:33:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I couldn't provide mine if my very life depended on it.

What, you a wetback or something? ;^)

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-12   21:39:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Another 'hat tip' to the "October Surprise" video:

Does Barack Obama Meet the Qualifications to be President of the USA?

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-13   13:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's the first report I've seen that is now aware Obama has been ordered to produce his birth certificate, etc.:

Unconvinced Obama's a citizen

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-14   9:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's some Washington Times commentary wherein the reader responses are more current than the 'commentariat':
GAFFNEY: The jihadist vote

And a summation from Fox News in Toledo Ohio but still seems unaware the Court has Ordered discovery:
Former UT law grad sues Obama, questions citizenship

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-14   10:00:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Every community college student takes a trip to Pakistan, don't they? And think back to what that region looked like in '81....martial law....government turmoil...the Soviets shaking their fist.... What a pant load

Barry is as dirty as a Times Sq. hooker

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-10-14   10:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

By: Tunes59 "Curiously, Mr. Obama has, to date, failed to provide an authentic birth certificate which could clear up the matter"

I find this slightly more than curious! I think this will cause a Constitutional crisis if not resolved before the election. Every American citizen needs to call on Mr. Obama to prove his Constitutional qualifications.

So far Mr. Obama has refused to produce the documents and is trying to fight the court order to produce the documents. Any American should be able to prove citizenship in less than a day. Why can’t Mr. Obama?

what constitution? /sarcasm

if this is true, those who selected obama knew it and also knew that it wouldn't matter. the PTB are proving they can place anyone they want for whatever purpose. we shall soon see what that purpose is.

Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com

christine  posted on  2008-10-14   10:43:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Barry is as dirty as a Times Sq. hooker

Now, now. Let's not insult Times Square hookers. They at least make an honest living, if not a sincere one.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-14   10:53:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Replace him with ummmm... hmmmm... let me think... Ron Paul?

Ron Paul has stated he is a Republican and will stay a Republican so I guess he would have to turn it down if the Democrat party offered it to him. Why he wants to stay a Republican is beyond me.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-10-14   11:04:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

if this is true, those who selected obama knew it and also knew that it wouldn't matter.

Actually, I've wondered what they knew and when they knew it. I've wondered how much Obama even knew. He may have believed, uncritically, most of his life that his citizenship status was no different than anyone elses. When he ran for national office, his ambiguous status was overlooked. The FEC is to blame for not rigorously enforcing and publicizing eligibility.

So when he considered the presidency and was nominated, his eligibility may have been overlooked again and assumed by most, except Hillary who I would expect knew and is using the info as a well-played trump card.

By the time it was questioned, the die had been cast and was too late to back out - too much egg on too many faces - and he is trying to bluff/delay his way into having his eligibility ignored, again.

I'm confident that Obama knew he had a problem not later than when the issue first surfaced, at which point I'm sure he asked family members where he was actually born and where was the proof. He's been doing damage control ever since.

I've also wondered, if his citizenship status is disproven, what might the consequences be for any legislation and procedural votes wherein the difference was one vote - arguably his illegitimate vote - leading to the Mother of all Mulligans.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-14   11:07:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Except he was born in Hawai'i and this game being played on his birth place is just one of many false E mail spread rumors that have no point but character assasination. This is gaining no traction because it is a falsehood, pure and simple.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   11:13:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This is gaining no traction because it is a falsehood, pure and simple.

lol - the judge obviously thought otherwise.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-14   11:19:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Except he was born in Hawai'i

This was never proven.

Obama said he was born in two-different Hawaii hospitals.

Obama's Grandmother said he was born in Kenya.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-14   12:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This is gaining no traction because it is a falsehood, pure and simple.

That's why Obama won't produce a legitimate birth certificate despite it hurting him in the polls. LOL!

It is going somewhere buddy, and you are going to have to find some other communist to support.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-10-14   12:51:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Nah, it is a waste of time and one of many pointless E mail originated games Swift Boating types are playing.

Oh and Ricky Retardo, just generally, not just related to this topic, go fuck yourself.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   20:15:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"lol - the judge obviously thought otherwise."

The judge has to respect process in civil actions. I am not the least bit worried that this tempest in a teapot will run it's course and die with the same whimper most other 'slap' suits die with.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   20:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And you know, he was born in Hawai'i. And I don't give a shit about this circle jerk you all are doing in here with one of many Swift Boat style liefests about Barack Obama.

Stop bothering me with it.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   20:21:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're still here you left-wingnut loser?

I'm still waiting for you to come over to my place and kill me.

I'm also waiting for monkey boy Barry Soertoro/Obama to produce

His Birth Certificate

His travel/passport records

His medical records

His educational records

WHY WON'T HE PRODUCE THE RECORDS?

It's the second mouse that gets the cheese

Flintlock  posted on  2008-10-14   20:30:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"I'm still waiting for you to come over to my place and kill me."

Heh, OK, where do you live? ;-D

Why would I want to off a wingnut like you?

I mean, better the asshole you know then one you don't, yues? And I bet your replacement in here would be a real stinker, possibly worse then you are.

Stop being such a butthead.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   20:33:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Stop being such a butthead.

You stop being a tool and (as your hero Lenin would say) "useful idiot" for the left

So when is Barry Soetoro aka: Barak Obama going to provide us with his Birth Certificate and the other documents the court ordered?

Or is he going to spend election night in jail on contempt charges? Obama is not only not eligible to run for President. He's not even in the country legally! He's a wetback fraud that needs to be deported!

Now, go climb a very tall tree and with some luck, you'll fall out.

It's the second mouse that gets the cheese

Flintlock  posted on  2008-10-14   20:58:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And you know, he was born in Hawai'i. And I don't give a shit about this circle jerk you all are doing in here with one of many Swift Boat style liefests about Barack Obama.

Stop bothering me with it.

What is Obama Hiding?

Why won't he present his documents?

America does not need another "sneaky" president.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-14   23:33:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"Now, go climb a very tall tree and with some luck, you'll fall out."

Too late, already did that; have the scars to prove it too.

And I like Tori Amos a hell of allot more then I like a dead Soviet leader.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   23:46:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you can't get a clue, buy a vowel.

Do you fucking think that by spamming me I am going to suddenly take nonsense seriously?

No. Now your delusions and myopia are your problem, you deal with it, I cannot help you.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   23:48:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you can't get a clue, buy a vowel.

The heart of Berg’s lawsuit claims three things.

1. Senator Obama is not a naturalized citizen and/or

2. Lost his citizenship when he was adopted in Indonesia and/or

3. Has dual or conflicting national loyalties because of his citizenship with Kenya and Indonesia.

Senator Obama is not a naturalized citizen and/or 2. Lost his citizenship when he was adopted in Indonesia and/or 3. Has dual or conflicting national loyalties because of his citizenship with Kenya and Indonesia.

Berg alleges Obama’s Hawaiian birth certificate from the state of Hawaii is a forgery per three independent document forensic experts. He alleges Obama was born in Kenya as his mother (Stanley Ann Dunham, aged 18) traveled there with her husband, Barack Obama, a Kenyan national, but was prevented from flying back to Hawaii because of the late stage of her pregnancy. [Wiki trivia: Obama, Sr. and Dunham married in 1961 while Obama, Sr. was still married to his first wife from Kenya, whom he never divorced. Obama, Sr. is dead now, but divorced from Dunham in 1964. So the Barackcuda is literally a son of a bigamist.] Berg claims Obama's own paternal grandmother, half-brother and half-sister have also claimed the same; that Barack was born in Kenya and his mother subsequently flew to Hawaii to register the birth. If Obama was truly born in Kenya, Berg claims, the contemporary laws hold that U.S. citizenship may only pass to a child born overseas to a U.S. citizen parent and non-citizen parent if the former was at least 19 years of age. As Ms. Dunham was too young, therefore citizenship could not legally be passed on to him. Therefore Obama could not be registered as a "natural born" citizen and would therefore be ineligible to seek the presidency pursuant to Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-14   23:51:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Now your delusions and myopia are your problem, you deal with it, I cannot help you.

What is Obama Hiding?

Why won't he present his documents?

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-14   23:52:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Why don't motorcycles have doors?

Why don't ducks come with talons?

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   23:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Spam scrollby. Didn't read it of course, but I am amused by your anal behavior, Perry Mason.

"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-10-14   23:56:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What is Obama Hiding?

Why won't he present his documents?

Those are good questions. You would think that if Obama is actually an American citizen, born in Hawaii as he claims he was, that it shouldn't be a big problem to produce an original birth certificate proving it. The fact that he hasn't done so seems to indicate a problem with his citizenship OR a lack of character. Wouldn't any sane person running for president produce a real birth certificate if their eligibility were questioned?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-14   23:58:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't read it of course.

You probably wouldn't understand it.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-15   0:00:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What is Obama Hiding?

Why won't he present his documents?

Those are good questions. You would think that if Obama is actually an American citizen, born in Hawaii as he claims he was, that it shouldn't be a big problem to produce an original birth certificate proving it. The fact that he hasn't done so seems to indicate a problem with his citizenship OR a lack of character. Wouldn't any sane person running for president produce a real birth certificate if their eligibility were questioned?

Obama is hiding for sure.

It is a long time until election day.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-15   0:02:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Obama said he was born in two-different Hawaii hospitals.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-15   0:07:01 ET  (6 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Now, now. Let's not insult Times Square hookers. They at least make an honest living, if not a sincere one.

Eggzacutigly! I see no reason to insult hookers with comparisons to lying politicians.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-15   0:10:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Conservative radio hosts repeat discredited claim that Obama has not produced valid U.S. birth certificate

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-15   0:12:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Note carefully, the video was made before the Judge denied Obama's move to stay discovery, and the Judge just two days ago Ordered Obama and the DNC to produce the documents and answer the questions as part of Berg's discovery. The Judge gave Obama until Wednesday, Oct 15th to provide documents and answers. Given a couple days grace, by Friday Obama will: a) Appeal, which in itself will be newsworthy b) Provide answers, which will again be newsworthy c) do nothing, missing the deadline, which will again be newsworthy

Are you sure? There was some confusion about this when people who read the order prepared by Berg (that's how its done-the attorney requesting an order prepares it for the judge's sig) didn't realize that it was not signed, but, they reported it as if the judge had written the order instead of Berg as part of his original filing.

And, according to the docket (with it's latest entry being 10/09) the only order so far is the denial of the motion for TRO below:

August 22, 2008 4 ORDER THAT UPON CONSIDERATION OF PLAINITFF'S MOTION FOR TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER (DOC. NO. 2) AND AFTER HAVING A HEARING IN OPEN COURT IT IS ORDERED THAT THE MOTION IS DENIED. SIGNED BY HONORABLE R. BARCLAY SURRICK ON 8/22/08. 8/22/08 ENTERED AND COPIES FAXED FROM CHAMBERS. (jpd) (Entered: August 22, 2008)

___________________________

It is my belief that besides the routine denial of the restraining order nothing else has been ordered by the court to date.

Here's a link for someone who made the mistake then apologized.

Here's the same mistake with the second poster setting the first one straight on his boo boo.

And, one more.

Judge Orders Obama to Produce Birth Certificate

08 Oct

Posted by MacRanger as 2008 Election, Barack Obama, Election 2008

Hmmmmm…

” This article is a rewrite of last week’s article on Philip J. Berg’s lawsuit to force Barack Obama to produce a certified copy of his original birth certificate. On Sept. 24 the DNC filed a motion to dismiss the Berg action, which sent Berg scrambling to file a response, which was filed on Sept. 29, providing the date and material which led to my confusion that the order had been signed. Accept my mea culpas. The moment I realized the error I called News With Views and had the article pulled, and posted a recant on my website as well. Here is the most current information on the case, taken from court documents. — Jon Christian Ryter

On September 29, 2008 Pennsylvania attorney Philip J. Berg, filed a response to a motion to dismiss by defendant Barack Obama who was joined in his effort to quash Berg’s lawsuit by the Democratic National Committee, claiming it has no standing to proceed. Berg argued in the brief response that he has provided the precedents which establish the standing and petitioned US District Court Judge R. Barclay Surrick of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania to pursue the case. In his Sept. 29 filing, Berg said: “Plaintiff served discovery in way of Admissions and Request for Production of Documents, on Defendants on September 15, 2008 and has attempted to obtain verification of Obama’s eligibility through subpoenas to the government entities and the hospital’s in Hawaii. To date, Plaintiffs and two of (2) the locations, which subpoenas were served upon, refused to honor the subpoenas.

“For the above aforementioned reasons, Plaintiff respectfully request Defendants and the Democratic National Committee’s Motion to Dismiss pursuant to F.R.C.P. 12(b)(1) and 12(b)(6) be denied and order immediate discovery (the unsigned order requiring Obama to produce…” within three (3) days{

The judge ordered, “Having reviewed the motion and plaintiff’s opposition to said motion and for good cause shown, it is hereby ordered that the motion to dismiss pursuant to F.R.C.P. 12(b)(1) and 12(b)(6) is denied. It is further order of this court that the following discovery is to be turned over to plaintiff within three (3) days.

1. Obama’s “vault” version (certified copy of his “original” long version) birth certificate; and 2. a certified copy of Obama’s Certificate of Citizenship; 3. a certified copy of Obama’s oath of allegiance.”

The certified copy of the citizen of the world’s “oath of allegiance” to the United Sates is a document attesting to the fact that the newly “naturalized” citizen (usually an immigrant who has just been granted citizenship) or for native born Americans who have forfeited or otherwise surrendered their citizenship, and have requested reinstatement at their majority, usually 18, has sworn allegiance to the United States and its Constitution.”

October surprise? 10 Responses

1.

Larry Sheldon

October 8th, 2008 at 9:41 am 1

I have not bothered to check it again this morning, but for every previous time I have seen this, I have checked, and found:

The only evidence for this “order” is the draft of the desired order in Berg’s filing.

I have not found court records of a signed and recorded order.

There is enough wrong with Obama in the stuff Obama has said in recent times. We don’t need this crap that is so easy to shoot down. 2.

clarice

October 8th, 2008 at 9:44 am 2

DITTO–This is the Lie that will not die! 3.

Larry Sheldon

October 8th, 2008 at 11:53 am 3

Just by way of comparison, here is what ab order looks like.

Note date, signature, and absence of other matrerial in the PDF 4.

Larry Sheldon

October 8th, 2008 at 11:53 am 4

Ooops. (He forgot the link)

link

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-15   0:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Conservative radio hosts repeat discredited claim that Obama has not produced valid U.S. birth certificate

How has it been "discredited"? Has he, in the eleventh hour, actually produced a VALID, authentic original birth certificate? If so, I haven't heard about it and I have been trying to keep up with it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-15   0:16:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Conservative radio hosts repeat discredited claim that Obama has not produced valid U.S. birth certificate

How has it been "discredited"? Has he, in the eleventh hour, actually produced a VALID, authentic original birth certificate? If so, I haven't heard about it and I have been trying to keep up with it.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-15   0:22:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And, according to the docket (with it's latest entry being 10/09) the only order so far is the denial of the motion for TRO below:

No, the latest entry on 10/09 (which it seems you've not read yet) is in fact the Judge's Order denying Obama's move to stay discovery, and Obama is Ordered to answer Berg's discovery requests and produce documents by Oct 15th (tomorrow).

The Judge has deferred his decision on Obama's motion to dismiss, pending the discovery which the Judge ordered. i.e. the Judge might yet dismiss if the results of discovery warrant it, or the Judge might proceed to trial if discovery (or lack thereof) demonstrates Berg's case has merit.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-15   0:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Just listened to that on the other thread. I agree, he should just stand in front of the cameras with a legitimate, authentic, Hawaiian birth certificate IF HE HAS ONE. And if he doesn't he should get out of the race. It ain't complicated--if he is not an American by birth he is not eligible to be president (and that is not saying that he would be a good president, only that if he is an American he is eligible to run for the office and if he isn't he is not eligible). That should be simple enough even for a "brilliant Harvard lawyer" to understand.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-15   0:39:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

America Betrayed

October 14, 2008 (10:00 )

Phil J. Berg will appear on America Betrayed, hosted by John Clark

10 p.m. - 11 p.m. Eastern

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-15   0:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-10-15   0:40:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well great!

But I have to ask.

If it hasn't been posted to the docket yet, then, you know this HOW?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-15   0:47:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If it hasn't been posted to the docket yet, then, you know this HOW?

Because it has been posted to the docket, doc #18 on 10/9/08

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-15   0:49:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2008-10-15   0:50:48 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

by the PTB to unseat obama and replace him with guess who

I seriously doubt that--are they really crazy enough to think that the blacks would take such an action just laying down? Between riots from coast to coast, along with destruction of polling places where voting couldn't take place, I doubt HC would get much more than a wave as the military passed by in APCs or Strykers or tanks.

rowdee  posted on  2008-10-15   0:55:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Because it has been posted to the docket, doc #18 on 10/9/08

Entry # 18 is Berg's response to Obama's and the DNC's motion for protective order. (entry 15)

Does your docket entry 18 differ from this one?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-15   0:57:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

are they really crazy enough to think that the blacks would take such an action just laying down?

Whose to say that isn't part of the plan?

farmfriend  posted on  2008-10-15   0:58:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Entry # 18 is Berg's response to Obama's and the DNC's motion for protective order. (entry 15)

Not entirely. Doc #18 is the Judge's order and also attaches Berg's response

Read the order and stop assuming.

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/ district-courts/pennsylvania/ paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/18/0.pdf

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-15   1:04:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not entirely. Doc #18 is the Judge's order and also attaches Berg's response

Read the order and stop assuming.

I think the words you're looking for are,

"I apologize Dawg. I was mistaken. I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

And then you included a link for the original filing?

Lemme guess. You've never personally prepared or filed a court case, have you?

I'll try one more time to explain things to you.

Had the judge signed the order prepared by Berg in the original filing 6 days ago it would be listed on the docket as ORDER like entry # 4.

It isn't. He didn't and you are mistaken.

I hope you'll be Christian enough to apologize when it finally sinks in.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-15   1:15:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I hope you'll be Christian enough to apologize when it finally sinks in.

If you're proven right, absolutely.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-15   1:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Apparently you didn't read the links I posted where other novices read the original filing and assumed they were court orders.

There's even a link for a court order that's signed by the judge (for illustration purposes) which the link you provided wasn't by the way. And, why wasn't it signed? Because it was the original filing by Philip Berg, not a court order!

I've educated many people who want to learn and there's no shame in being confused about the gibberish employed by the courts.

But, I resent your smokescreen, telling me to "stop assuming" after you said it was docket entry #18, I showed you that it wasn't and then you implied that court orders can somehow exist for 6 days without being recorded on the docket, or that a filing in response to a motion would be somehow more important than a court order and therefore displace or include without reference a judge's order on the docket. That's just plain silly.

I've been filing in federal courts for over 20 years. It's not a religious belief, it's a system with no surprises (at least to me) about the procedures used.

You obviously heard a rumor or misread the same court filings without knowing the difference between an attorney's prepared motion and a signed court order, and you haven't the character to admit when you're obviously wrong.

(I'll give you the benefit of any doubt about your intelligence and assume you know you are mistaken. Everyone else reading this does)

An insult is a poor substitute for proof. And, federal court orders don't exist for 6 days without being added to the docket.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-15   1:31:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There's even a link for a court order that's signed by the judge (for illustration purposes) which the link you provided wasn't by the way.

Yes I read that one, I agree #4 has the Judges sig whereas #18 doesn't.

And, why wasn't it signed? Because it was the original filing by Philip Berg, not a court order!

Agree there as well.

But, I resent your smokescreen, telling me to "stop assuming" after you said it was docket entry #18,

It wasn't a smokescreen. It thought you were assuming there was no order within doc #18.

You obviously heard a rumor or misread the same court filings without knowing the difference between an attorney's prepared motion and a signed court order,

Judges often ask attorneys to prepare orders for their signature, language is reviewed by the clerks, and filed. Then the Judge signs it. I will grant you a signed order is not on the docket and I may well have prematurely assumed the Judge had signed it and it wasn't yet filed.

and you haven't the character to admit when you're obviously wrong.

Both when I'm possibly wrong, as well as obviously wrong, as the case may be.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-15   1:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I've been filing in federal courts for over 20 years.

I'm sure you have. Selling kiddy porn is getting harder all the time, isn't it?

It's the second mouse that gets the cheese

Flintlock  posted on  2008-10-15   2:51:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Its possible, of course, but I believe unlikely, as mobs are not easily controlled, nor is the destruction they cause, nor are they very selective in who or what is destroyed. You have only to look at the LA riots to see that as the truth.

rowdee  posted on  2008-10-15   13:35:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Its possible, of course, but I believe unlikely, as mobs are not easily controlled, nor is the destruction they cause, nor are they very selective in who or what is destroyed. You have only to look at the LA riots to see that as the truth.

You missed my point. That distruction is what they want. Like 9/11 it gives them the excuse they need to instill more fascism. It is the racial divide that helps to feed the fascist machine. The details of what or who gets distroyed is immaterial.

farmfriend  posted on  2008-10-15   13:41:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So they wipe out all the usa.....then what........do you think the ptb would be content with trying to train the continent of africa to learn to cater to their needs--whatever their needs would be.

As the game plays out, power concentrates more and more into a smaller and smaller group---but there is always someone a little hungrier for the top post than the rest. And while they might get that post based on their intellectual hankypanky, they will need their minions to keep it, regardless of whether it is against just a handful of opponents or a mass of opponents.

As 'brilliant' as those are at the top, they still need the drones to keep the trains running....I guess that is what I am trying to say.

rowdee  posted on  2008-10-15   19:16:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So, the "defendants" (respondents) didn't answer by the 15th, and Berg did not enter a motion for summary judgment or a motion for a writ of mandamus to disqualify Obama from running for president.

In fact, no entries have been made to the docket despite the default deadline being three days past.

Hmmm, I don't want to "assume" anything so, I'll wait for Starwind to explain this to all of us stoopids.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-18   23:27:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

In fact, no entries have been made to the docket despite the default deadline being three days past.

Indeed not. I was clearly mistaken in my expectation that the Judge would have signed what I understood he had requested.

Nor has there been any status on Obama's motion to stay discovery and Berg's response. There is a hearing scheduled on the 21st. Perhaps some information on what has or hasn't transpired will be forthcoming then.

Hmmm, I don't want to "assume" anything so, I'll wait for Starwind to explain this to all of us stoopids.

Nowhere did I state or imply you, Christine or flintlock were "stoopids", but then this also seems to have gone well beyond your simple desire to correct my mistake.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-19   13:07:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

FWIW, I note with further chagrin that Obama has today filed a motion to dismiss accompanied by unsigned Order from the Judge.

As both unsigned Orders are contradictory, ostensibly the Judge asked for neither, and I incorrectly assumed he had requested and would sign the one prepared by Berg ordering discovery.

(Be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves)

Starwind  posted on  2008-10-20   21:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

FWIW, I note with further chagrin that Obama has today filed a motion to dismiss accompanied by unsigned Order from the Judge.

As both unsigned Orders are contradictory, ostensibly the Judge asked for neither, and I incorrectly assumed he had requested and would sign the one prepared by Berg ordering discove

And, the more familiar you become with the gibberish lawyers employ (in order to mystify and over charge us) the more certain you'll become that they deliberately complicate the system to keep it a closed shop.

Justice is an amazingly simple concept and a fair, impartial Christian man would have little trouble settling disputes.

But Justice as we understand it is a negative concept, i.e. the absence of injustice.

THEY define it as "The systematic and perpetual disposition of legal disputes rendering each man his due." (Black's Law Dictionary) Can you see the difference? Where we seek the absence of injustice, their definition is a fervent prayer for a "systematic and perpetual" source of income like the grinding out of link sausage, and the truth is not the ultimate goal for them.

Obviously the system does not "render each man his due" and in fact it's heavily weighted in favor of the wealthier adversary and the better connected attorney(s).

It is perfectly understandable why you'd assume that reason would prevail and that you'd mistake a motion drafted by counsel as a court order. After all, you're a fair, impartial man and assume the system was based on justice, as did I when I started wrangling with the feds decades ago.

Once I essentially learned a second language (a tedious process in order to understand well enough to file as a pro se litigant-defendant) I realized that just like the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass this legal gibberish could be completely simplified if they wanted us to understand it.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-10-26   18:15:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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