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Title: Forrestal Incident
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Published: Oct 11, 2008
Author: salemguy
Post Date: 2008-10-11 17:08:50 by salemguy
Keywords: Forrestal, McCain, hotdog
Views: 344
Comments: 21
I have some open questions I think are important. They are about the truth of the Forrestal accident John McCain was involved in, in 1967. I believe a resolution of them can provide insight into his true character. I learned about it from a friend a month ago and googled a lot of material, mostly inconclusive, often conflicting. One of the better comment sets I found was here, but I can't find it now, so I'm sending this as a general post, not really an article. I've read zionist nut interpretations and murky, early morning hangover-like assertions, and seen "official" videos, but a former carrier flight deck navy man whose name I can't remember provided good information here on actual operational logistics that still leave me with questions. The central question is and has been whether or not McCain, with his "hot dog" behavior and reputation, caused the accident, resulting in loss of many lives on the ship, and millions of dollars in loss of planes and damage to the ship. Cutting to the chase through my own confusion... A4's of that era were started with external air power. Who controls the fuel switch? It still seems to me that a pilot who wanted to haze other pilots with a "wet start" (big flame on ignition) could effect that. Where did the errant missle that started the fires hit McCain's fuel tank come from, and why? The only credible explanation I've seen is that it was a result of a McCain wet start, from the plane behind, or another not behind? Why was McCain transferred from the Forrestal to the Oriskany? I've read two versions of that transfer... one that it happened immediately and another that it happened after a couple weeks of R&R in Saigon (why?), but in either case he left the Forrestal that day, as far as I can tell. That suggests to me a "fragging" might have occurred? Fragging, for those who may not know, is the killing of officers by enlisted personnel for perceived wrongs. I would really like to hear from Forrestal vets who were there. I think a set of reflections from them may help resolve these questions. McCain lost four planes in his Naval career with his hot dog attitude, it appears, and a fifth when he was shot down. Most pilots would lose their flight status after one or two, I'd think. In any event, I still think the Forrestal incident bears some scrutiny.
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#1. To: salemguy (#0)
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/print_did_mccain_crash_five_pla n es_did_he.html
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
I think you'll find answers to many of your questions here: http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/print_did_mccain_crash_five_pla n es_did_he.html I found more comments, from naval historical scholars, a subordinate of McCain's father, and McCain himself, but no real answers. Where did the errant missle actually come from and why? Where are the Forrestal witnesses. Where are the records from men on the deck that day?
I thought I was responding to Christine, but "All" appears... I hope a Forrestal vet receives this, checks the thread and responds. Couple further questions not answered by factcheck.org here... Where are the ships captain's and flight deck command records? Why was McCain removed from the ship that day, apparently? An officer does not leave a ship in distress.
The problem with the factcheck article is the comment about wet start only with an afterburner. Anything with more than 6000lbs thrust can engage in a wet start, afterburner or no afterburner. Also, the locations of the aircraft changed several times until the final Naval document was approved. Wonder why?
nolu, can you answer salem's questions?
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
I can try.
There is no evidence of McCain wrongdoing regarding the events on Forrestal. I will address the transfer issue first. This mixes a medevac for medical treatment with a subsequent permanent change of station transfer. On the day of the incident, as shown in available video, McCain left his burning plane, jumped into the fire on deck and rolled out of the fire. Very shortly thereafter there was an explosion and he took shrapnel wounds. He was evacuated that day, as were many others, to the Oriskany for medical treatment. "Lieutenant Commander John McCain of VA 46 was hit by shrapnel as he jumped out of his plane and ran across the deck. He is recovering." See All Hands, November 1967, p. 6. McCain was a member of an attack squadron (VA-46, The Clansmen) and NOT a member of the Forrestal crew. The Forrestal had massive damage and headed to the yards for about a year. All the squadron pilots would leave Forrestal. Many of the squadron planes were destroyed and the squadron had no usable carrier. All of the remaining squadron aircraft and squadron crews were disembarked in Mayport, Florida before the Forrestal reached homeport in Norfolk, VA. The squadrons have their own commanding officer and their own home base. VA-46 was based at Naval Air Station Cecil Field, Florida. McCain had neither a carrier nor a plane to return to. He was picked up by VA-163 (The Saints) who took all the A-4 pilots they could get. Admiral Jerry C. Breast's Speech-2005 FID REUNION, Franklin, TN 8/27/05 REAR ADMIRAL JERRY C. BREAST, USN (Ret) Speech Given at the THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY STAY THE SAME I am honored to be among the nation’s finest sailors and their loved ones who made us proud and mighty. Although I was never aboard CVA-59, the class ship for my own INDEPENDENCE, for anything more than a carrier qualification, her reputation and out shared mission makes her precious in my memory. I particularly remember sitting in Ready Room Three on ORISKANY that day in July of 1967 when a dark cloud of smoke appeared on the horizon of the plat. We ceased combat operations and steamed over to our sister ship. My squadron VA-163 (the Saints) had been hard hit in the ORISKANY fire in October 1966 and we, under the leadership of Commander Bryan Compton, had trained well in fire fighting. We had three full teams of 16 men formed in our squadron, including medics and we geared up to go to FORRESTAL, which we had closed to within three miles. In my recollection we did load up one of our teams in Helo’s but I’m not sure how much firefighting they actually did. Another fallout of that fateful day was that our squadron, which had already lost six pilots gobbled up all the A-4 pilots who wanted to cross-deck (they included folks like John McCain, John Roosen and Jeff Korommenhawk …two of whom we subsequently lost. One of my close friends was LCDR Rod Kauber of VF-74 who wanted desperately to get into combat…but there were no Phantom boats on the line. What a tragic and strategic loss…you guys were primed and ready to go!! [snip] Article, U.S. Navy publication All Hands, November 1967.
A brief description of what happens ordinarily on the flight deck of a carrier. FLIGHT DECK OPERATIONS http://science.howstuffworks.com/aircraft-carrier.htm/printable Taking Off from an Aircraft Carrier An aircraft carrier flight deck is one of the most exhilarating and dangerous work environments in the world (not to mention one of the loudest). The deck may look like an ordinary land runway, but it works very differently, due to its smaller size. When the crew is in full swing, planes are landing and taking off at a furious rate in a limited space. One careless moment, and a fighter jet engine could suck somebody in or blast somebody off the edge of the deck into the ocean. But as dangerous as the flight deck is for the deck crew, they have it pretty easy compared to the pilots. The flight deck isn't nearly long enough for most military planes to make ordinary landings or takeoffs, so they have to head out and come in with some extraordinary machine assistance. If you've read How Airplanes Work, you know that an airplane has to get a lot of air moving over its wings to generate lift. To make takeoff a little easier, carriers can get additional airflow over the flight deck by speeding through the ocean, into the wind, in the direction of takeoff. This air moving over the wings lowers the plane's minimum takeoff speed. Getting air moving over the deck is important, but the primary takeoff assistance comes from the carrier's four catapults, which get the planes up to high speeds in a very short distance. Each catapult consists of two pistons that sit inside two parallel cylinders, each about as long as a football field, positioned under the deck. The pistons each have a metal lug on their tip, which protrudes through a narrow gap along the top of each cylinder. The two lugs extend through rubber flanges, which seal the cylinders, and through a gap in the flight deck, where they attach to a small shuttle. The shuttle of catapult number four on USS John Stennis To prepare for a takeoff, the flight deck crew moves the plane into position at the rear of the catapult and attaches the towbar on the plane's nose gear (front wheels) to a slot in the shuttle. The crew positions another bar, the holdback, between the back of the wheel and the shuttle (in F-14 and F/A-18 fighter jets, the holdback is built into the nose gear; in other planes, it's a separate piece). Photo courtesy U.S Navy While all of this is going on, the flight crew raises the jet blast deflector (JBD) behind the plane (aft of the plane, in this case). When the JBD, towbar and holdback are all in position, and all the final checks have been made, the catapult officer (also known as the "shooter") gets the catapults ready from the catapult control pod, a small, encased control station with a transparent dome that protrudes above the flight deck. Photo courtesy U.S Department of Defense When the plane is ready to go, the catapult officer opens valves to fill the catapult cylinders with high-pressure steam from the ship's reactors. This steam provides the necessary force to propel the pistons at high speed, slinging the plane forward to generate the necessary lift for takeoff. Initially, the pistons are locked into place, so the cylinders simply build up pressure. The catapult officer carefully monitors the pressure level so it's just right for the particular plane and deck conditions. If the pressure is too low, the plane won't get moving fast enough to take off, and the catapult will throw it into the ocean. If there's too much pressure, the sudden jerk could break the nose gear right off. When the cylinders are charged to the appropriate pressure level, the pilot blasts the plane's engines. The holdback keeps the plane on the shuttle while the engines generate considerable thrust. The catapult officer releases the pistons, the force causes the holdbacks to release, and the steam pressure slams the shuttle and plane forward. At the end of the catapult, the tow bar pops out of the shuttle, releasing the plane. This totally steam-driven system can rocket a 45,000-pound plane from 0 to 165 miles per hour (a 20,000-kg plane from 0 to 266 kph) in two seconds! Photo courtesy U.S Department of Defense If everything goes well, the speeding plane has generated enough lift to take off. If not, the pilot (or pilots) activate their ejector seats to escape before the plane goes hurdling into the ocean ahead of the ship (this hardly ever happens, but the risk is always there). Taking off is extremely difficult, but the real trick is coming back in. In the next section, we'll take a look at the standard carrier landing, or recovery, procedure.
CLAIMED, STANDARD, AND VIDEO OF PLANE POSITIONS - - - - - USS Forrestal, diagram of plane positions F4 from which rocket fired in #110. A4 #416 or #405 or both were hit by rocket. The only plane facing outwards is an RA-5C Vigilante (603). - - - - - In the following photos, note the aircraft are parked with exhaust to sea. USS Abraham Lincoln diagrammed with descriptions. - - - - - USS Forrestal, last known photo in morning before fire - - - - - USS Forrestal 3/29/1989 Note the runway with the big white line down the middle. That is the landing strip. On the far left side you can see two catapult takeoff areas. There are more at the front of the ship. - - - - - USS Stennis & HMS Illustrious - - - - - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I USS Forrestal Mishap July 29, 1967 The only plane facing outwards is an RA-5C Vigilante (603). - - - - -
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/print_did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html
i knew i asked the right guy. thanks so much. i'm going to bookmark this thread myself.
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
www.gregoryafreeman.com/template.html Sailors to the End: The Deadly Fire on the USS Forrestal by Gregory A. Freeman See the book for full references … [On the day of the fire] Two of the crew members working with Bangert’s plane were busy checking the missiles and rockets to ensure that they were properly installed and that the systems were safe. One man began conducting stray voltage checks on the weapons systems, to make sure the electrical system was not malfunctioning in a way that could accidentally trigger the weapons. He found no stray voltage in any of the systems on the port side and then went to the starboard side to conduct the same tests. Having found no stray voltage or other potential problems with the weapons systems, he plugged in the “pigtails,” cable connectors that linked the rockets and the plane’s launching device. This was the shortcut approved by the ship’s administration for the sake of speed. Plugging in the pigtails armed the weapons on the port side. At 10:51 a.m. and 21 seconds, Bangert had just started his starboard engine. With the engine running, Bangert reached out to press the button that would switch from the external cart’s power supply to the plane’s internal system. As his gloved finger hit the button, Bangert and McKay both felt a mild explosion shake the plane. Bangert looked up in time to see a small rocket flying across the deck with a yellow-orange exhaust flame.... ...The rocket was flying across the deck at chest height, at hundreds of miles per hour, headed towards a fuel chief who was standing just behind the number 4 arresting wire, pretty much in the middle of the deck between Bangert’s plane and those parked on the other side of the ship. He was knocked off his feet by the rocket as it passed without touching him. Another sailor on deck was much less fortunate. An ordnanceman, he was walking along the flight deck in front of a group of A-4 Skyhawks when the Zuni rocket hit him in the shoulder, passing through and instantly severing his arm but leaving him standing. The rocket then continued on, its course altered to the right by the collision with the ordnanceman. Having traveled about 100 feet, the rocket then struck the A-4 Skyhawk piloted by John McCain.... ... McCain felt a huge impact as the Zuni rocket tore through his plane on the right side and exited the left side, ripping open his fuel tank with 400 gallons of JP5 jet fuel. Two crewmen nearby were set on fire as the hot rocket exhaust passed by them. They were already rushing forward toward the island before the jet fuel spreading over the deck ignited. Just below the flight deck at the very rear of the ship, Edmond McGrew was on man overboard watch, keeping his eyes trained on the water in his sector, looking for anyone who had fallen overboard. As McGrew watched the water on the port side of the ship, another sailor had joined him on the fantail for a cigarette. Now they both saw the Zuni rocket hit the water on the port side, never exploding. They could tell that the object was not a man overboard, but they had no idea what it was. The fuel poured out of McCain’s torn plane, spreading to the rear of the ship rapidly as it was pushed not only by the 37 mph wind but by the exhausts of at least three jets positioned immediately in front of McCain’s plane. The jet fuel was ignited soon by fragments of burning rocket propellant, but there was a delay of a second or so as the fuel spilled from the plane, giving some crew members enough time to realize the danger they were in. With a sudden, deafening “whoomp!” sound, the fuel ignited and soon engulfed all of the A-4 Skyhawks parked on the port side.... ...The pilots strapped inside their planes needed help to get out. As they l ooked out of their canopies, they saw nothing but flames and black smoke, which was so thick that some of them could not see well enough to tell what awaited them if they opened their canopies. And others who could see knew that they were surrounded by a burning lake of jet fuel. In that instant, dozens of crewmen around those planes found themselves soaked in burning jet fuel. Several men stumbled outof the fire scene, covered head to toe in flames. One pilot jumped out of his plane and made his way out of the fire, his entire flight suit in flames. Once he got out of the fire and headed toward safety, he inexplicably turned around and walked back i nto the fire. Probably disoriented, he disappeared into the heart of the fire and never came back out. The fire had erupted so quickly that no one had a chance to warn those on the rear portion of the deck to run toward the safety of the center deck and the island structure. The men trapped in the fire had little or no opportunity to escape the huge fireball that grew ever larger as the fuel poured out of the planes, each one adding hundreds of gallons of fuel to the fire. The rocket’s flight was almost caught on film by the plat camera, a television camera located on the island structure. The plat camera was used to record all flight deck operations for future study, and also to provide images of flight deck activities to monitors throughout the ship. When the rocket and the subsequent fire caught the camera operator’s eye, he was focused farther forward on a plane about to be launched off a catapult. He immediately swung the camera back to the rear of the ship and trained it on the fire, where it remained for hours, but he missed the actual launch of the rocket. The camera operator had to abandon his post after a while becauseof shrapnel penetrating the space, but the camera continued to record the events. Later analysis of the film showed the reflection of the rocket in a window as it traveled across the deck. … [snip]
The central question is and has been whether or not McCain, with his "hot dog" behavior and reputation, caused the accident, resulting in loss of many lives on the ship, and millions of dollars in loss of planes and damage to the ship. A4's of that era were started with external air power. Who controls the fuel switch? It still seems to me that a pilot who wanted to haze other pilots with a "wet start" (big flame on ignition) could effect that. While it was possible to wet start McCain's aircraft which had no afterburner, in the launch position on a carrier there is a blast door raised behind the aircraft. McCain's parked aircraft was facing inward (standard position) with its exhaust to sea. In that position, it is impossible to do much with a wet start except shoot a flame at the ocean. Shooting a jet wash or wet-start flame across the flight deck would seeming blast crewmen overboard or leave crispy critters. Where did the errant missle that started the fires hit McCain's fuel tank come from, and why? The only credible explanation I've seen is that it was a result of a McCain wet start, from the plane behind, or another not behind? There seems to be no argument about what aircraft the rocket came from. It came from an F-4 on the other side of the ship. Its exhaust faced to sea, its nose faced McCain's plane, and the rocket went in the direction of McCain's plane. The rocket may have struck McCain's plane or one next to him, or both. The rocket did not detonate and proceeded over the side of the ship and into the sea. Why was McCain transferred from the Forrestal to the Oriskany? I've read two versions of that transfer... one that it happened immediately and another that it happened after a couple weeks of R&R in Saigon (why?), but in either case he left the Forrestal that day, as far as I can tell. That suggests to me a "fragging" might have occurred? Fragging, for those who may not know, is the killing of officers by enlisted personnel for perceived wrongs. I have separately covered why McCain went to Oriskany for medical treatment, as did many others that day. There has never been any evidence that anybody was trying to frag anybody that day. When big bombs are blowing up on a ship, and GQ is called, crewmen are fairly preoccupied with putting out the fire. Fragging is not a Navy term. Generally it refers to shooting an officer and generally seamen do not carry anything to shoot with. McCain lost four planes in his Naval career with his hot dog attitude, it appears, and a fifth when he was shot down. I am aware of two aircraft lost which may possibly have been due to pilot error, although not officially found as such. On the Forrestal he was parked when hit by a rocket. His hot dog attitude had nothing to do with it, and there is no evidence he did anything to cause it. There is no evidence that getting shot down over Vietnam was the result of hot dog attitude. Planes get hit and go down. James Stockdale (Perot's running mate) was also shot down and spent a few more years than John McCain as a POW. In a fifth incident over Spain, McCain did not lose his plane but clipped a power line. I'd say he was hot dogging and flying low on that one. Most pilots would lose their flight status after one or two, I'd think. His daddy and granddaddy were admirals. Officially, two planes were lost due to mechanical malfunction but could well have been McCain's fault. He owns that clipped power line. But he also owned a whole lot of juice. Nobody down the food chain is likely to take on the admiral. One could well question how McCain was selected for flight school in the first place, but then we are back to his daddy and grandaddy. In any event, I still think the Forrestal incident bears some scrutiny. Unless someone can turn McCain's aircraft around about 180 degrees and throw a wet start flame from one side of the ship to the other, there just isn't much to scrutinize. I don't see how McCain could possibly have caused the Forrestal fire with a wet start. Things like The Keating Five and the United States Council for World Freedom are worth some scrutiny, however.
You're welcome.
salemguy better return. ;) i'd hate for you to have taken all that time and effort with these posts (tho much appreciated by me) and for him not to see it. btw, i cannot stand john mcCain. heaven knows there's plenty not to like. he shouldn't be blamed for something that he was not responsible for though. the facts and truth (i guess that's going to be open for individual interpretation too) of the Forrestal incident should be known.
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
You may want to check out THIS Article in Rolling Stone about McCain. I found it very interesting.
I think you'll find answers to many of your questions here:
#2. To: christine (#1)
#3. To: All (#2)
think you'll find answers to many of your questions here: http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/print_did_mccain_crash_five_pla n es_did_he.html
#4. To: christine (#1)
#5. To: salemguy, nolu_chan (#2)
#6. To: christine, salemguy (#5)
nolu, can you answer salem's questions?
#7. To: salemguy (#0)
Why was McCain transferred from the Forrestal to the Oriskany? I've read two versions of that transfer... one that it happened immediately and another that it happened after a couple weeks of R&R in Saigon (why?), but in either case he left the Forrestal that day, as far as I can tell.
http://www.lancehatfield.com/AdmiralBreast.htm
USS FORRESTAL Association 2005 Reunion 
#8. To: salemguy (#0)
Photo courtesy U.S Department of Defense
An A-6E Intruder launches from the USS George Washington.
Photo courtesy U.S Department of Defense
A member of the USS George Washington flight-deck crew checks an F-14 Tomcat's catapult attachment.
Photo courtesy U.S Department of Defense
Steam rises from the catapult as an F/A-18C Hornet prepares to launch from the USS George Washington. You can see the catapult officer in the catapult control pod.
An F-14 Tomcat, positioned in front of the jet blast deflector on USS Nimitz's catapult number 1 
An F/A-18 Hornet launching from the USS George Washington
#9. To: salemguy (#0)
From: ATFSCrash
Added: November 25, 2006
5m:29s
#10. To: salemguy (#0)
A special note is in order here. We have seen some baseless claims that McCain was somehow responsible for the Forrestal disaster. One incorrect but widely quoted theory has him triggering the Zuni missile with the exhaust of his own plane by "wet-starting" – deliberately dumping fuel into the afterburner before starting in order to shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. This is a preposterous notion. For one thing, A-4 jets flew at subsonic speeds and were not equipped with afterburners. According to the Military Analysis Network site maintained by the Federation of American Scientists, the A-4 was powered by a "Single, Pratt & Whitney, J-52-P-408A non-afterburning, turbojet engine." The manufacturer's description of the aircraft also describes the powerplant as "One 11,187-pound-thrust P&W J52-P408 engine," with no mention of an afterburner.
And while pilots tell us that a “wet start” is possible even without an afterburner, the theory fails for another reason. The tail of McCain's plane was pointed over the side of the carrier and away from other planes at the time, and the F4 Phantom fighter that fired the missile was facing McCain's plane from the opposite side of the deck, as shown in Caiella’s diagram, in other diagrams, and in Navy film of the fire.
This bogus theory appears to have gotten its start from a report by New York Times reporter R. W. Apple. Jr, who reported on July 31, 1967 – two days after the fire – that the Forrestal’s captain, John K. Beling, believed an “extreme wet start” had created “a thick tongue of flame” that set off the Zuni. Beling did not identify McCain’s plane as the source, however, and said only that the aircraft was “parked near the carrier’s island,” which would have put it far forward and on the opposite side of the flight deck from where McCain’s plane was getting ready to launch. Not usually noted by the conspiracy theorists is that Capt. Beling “repeatedly said that he had been unable fully to sort out the conflicting reports” that circulated on the 5,000-man vessel in the hours after the fire, according to Apple, who also called the wet-start theory “tentative.” In any case, Beling’s early theory was soon dismissed by Navy investigators, who found that the Zuni had been touched off by a stray electrical charge, not by a jet exhaust. Author Freeman summarizes the findings succinctly in in "Sailors to the End:"Freeman, 2002 (p. 250): The investigation revealed that the rocket (fired) because a freak surge of electricity jumped through the plane's system at the moment the pilot switched from the outside electrical generator to the plane's internal power system.
And as Caiella also notes in his account, the investigation found that in the wartime pressure to get planes launched quickly crews had not observed two key safety precautions that could have prevented the stray spike of electricity from firing the rocket. The “pigtail” that connects the plane’s wiring to the missile had been plugged in prematurely, before the plane was on the catapult, and a safety pin that also would have prevented the firing also had been removed.
Freeman has posted an item on his own Web site flatly stating that McCain was in no way responsible for the accident. "McCain was never suspected of causing the fire because investigators determined immediately that the rocket misfired from the other side of the flight deck," writes Freeman.
Caiella agrees. He told us: “There is no possible way John McCain could have caused the fire on board the Forrestal. . . . McCain's only connection with the investigation was as a witness, in both a written deposition shortly after the fire and later in sworn testimony to the board.”
#11. To: nolu_chan (#10)
#12. To: salemguy (#0)
For information on Sen. John McCain's experience
during the fire on the USS Forrestal on July 29, 1967,
read these excerpts from
and the Heroes Who Fought It
to source material for information in these excerpts.
#13. To: salemguy (#0)
#14. To: christine (#11)
thanks so much.
#15. To: nolu_chan, salemguy (#14)
#16. To: christine (#15)
 | Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#17. To: christine (#15)
Yup, I have, and thank you nolu for all the stories and details. Short of seeing the ship commander report, flight deck commander report, and stories from sailors within sight of the disaster area... none evident here, I have to think McCain didn't cause the incident. Good enough. Thanks again, to all.
salemguy better return...
#18. To: Elliott Jackalope (#16)
i had to laugh at that.
In one vital respect, however, the comparison is deeply unfair to the current president: George W. Bush was a much better pilot.
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
#19. To: salemguy, Christine (#17)
www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.d...09110438/1010/COLUMNIST08 September 11, 2008 For former sailor, Forrestal fire remains vivid tragedy Phil Reisman The fourth-period bell rang at Highlands Middle School in White Plains. Jon Hotchkiss dismissed his math class and sat down and talked about a wartime disaster that happened 41 years ago on a clear summer morning on an aircraft carrier somewhere off the coast of North Vietnam. A central player in this tale is John McCain, a man Hotchkiss knew and admired. This was the McCain of legend - the brash, swashbuckling Navy pilot who seemed to have had more lives than a cat. The story begins in New Hampshire, where Hotchkiss grew up, the youngest of five sons. Life on the farm was not easy in the best of times. But when his father died, Hotchkiss was forced to make a life-changing, adult decision that belied his age of 16. "There was not a lot of money on the farm," he said. "I had my size early - I was big for my age. And I didn't want to be a burden to my mother because, without my father running the farm, there was no money coming in. "So I thought it would be best that I left." He decided to join the Navy. Because he was underage, he fudged the birth date on the forms. Hotchkiss might've gotten away with it, too, except that his mother stepped in and said there was no way she'd let the Navy take him until he finished high school. So he spent his senior year attending school during the day and going to Naval Reserve meetings on Monday nights. "Five days after I graduated from high school, I was in boot camp," he said. "I was 17." The year was 1966. After more training, Seaman Hotchkiss quickly found himself assigned to the USS Forrestal, an aircraft carrier with a 5,000-member crew that was dispatched across the globe to stage bombing sorties over North Vietnam. The farm in New Hampshire seemed far, far away. "Growing up, I saw a lot of animals and a lot of dirt, and I pushed a lot of hay" Hotchkiss said. "But I certainly had not seen the world." Aboard the Forrestal was McCain, an A-4 Skyhawk pilot who was about 30 years old. Hotchkiss remembered that McCain was loud, cocky and loved to joke. One time, McCain came up to Hotchkiss and barked, "Hotchkiss! You get that report done yet? I gave it to you five days ago. Why don't you have it done?" Stunned, Hotchkiss stammered out an apology. McCain looked at him and said, "Aw, you don't have it done because I didn't give it to you yet!" Hotchkiss laughed at the memory. He liked McCain. "He always treated us fair and square," he said. On the morning of July 29, 1967, the Forrestal was engaged in its fifth day of combat operations and had yet to lose a plane after 150 sorties. McCain and 26 other pilots were parked on the flight deck, readying for the day's second launch scheduled for 11 a.m. The mission never happened. At 10:52 a.m., just as McCain and the other pilots were climbing into their cockpits, an electrical mishap prematurely triggered a rocket on an F-4 Phantom jet. The rocket streaked across the deck, severely burning men as it went and tearing off the arm of one crewman before it tore through the 400-gallon fuel tank on McCain's plane. It landed in the ocean and never exploded. But the highly flammable fuel from the ruptured tank instantly ignited. Fanned by 37 mph wind, the fire quickly spread. McCain's plane was ablaze, as were others on the deck. According to an account in a riveting book about the Forestal disaster, "Sailors To The End," by Gregory A. Freeman, one pilot managed to get away from the blaze and appeared to be heading for safety when, apparently dazed and disoriented, "inexplicably walked back into the heart of the fire" and disappeared. Hotchkiss recalled how McCain escaped death. "He crawls out in front of his plane, jumps down to the deck which is covered in flames, rolls through the flames and his flight suit catches fire. He comes out, pats himself down to put the flames out. "As he's running away, he turns around to look at his plane and the first bomb went off, covering him with shrapnel. He got shrapnel from his own bombs." The fragments struck him in the chest and thighs. Freeman in his book describes how a headless body flew through the air and landed at McCain's feet. Despite his wounds, McCain helped crewmen throw bombs overboard. Nevertheless, several bombs were triggered in the inferno and within minutes the Forrestal was in a conflagration reminiscent of the havoc caused by kamikaze attacks of World War II. That the ship didn't sink may have been a miracle, but its salvation was really owed to the men who bravely fought to keep it afloat. Hotchkiss barely slept over a three-day period. One of his jobs was to man a telephone in the ship's damage control center. "For the first 24 hours straight, I was working phones and then I got three hours of sleep," he said. "The next 24 hours, I was fighting fires in relief and got another three hours of sleep. And the next 24 hours, as we were pulling into port, I helped look for bodies." During his stint in the damage control center, 19 firefighters found themselves trapped in flames with no visible means of escape. Using ship maps, Hotchkiss talked them through the smoke-filled maze of hallways and ladders - and every one of them got out. Others weren't so lucky. Hotchkiss knew several of the 134 men from the Forrestal who were killed that day. Decommissioned, the Forrestal today is docked in Newport, R.I., its future uncertain. Hotchkiss finished his education and began teaching in 1982. His career in the Navy and Naval Reserve lasted 33 years. Until now, he has never talked much about Vietnam, let alone the Forrestal incident. He never goes to ship reunions and has no desire to visit Vietnam, a place it seems he'd rather forget. If only he could. Sitting in his White Plains classroom, Hotchkiss looked back across the decades. "We were all so young," he said. As for McCain, well, the rest of his story is being told and retold. Hotchkiss remembers how after the fire, McCain could've easily been transferred to safe duty. Instead, he ordered Hotchkiss to place a call to his father, the admiral. He remembered that McCain pleaded with the old man not to allow the Pentagon to pull strings for him. He wanted to be sent back into action, a wish that was granted and resulted, eventually, in his being shot down and captured. Hotchkiss supports McCain's quest for the presidency, but with a caveat that he punctuated with laughter. "I don't support everything," he said. "He's a big fan of charter schools. I'm a big fan of public education." - - - - -
Short of seeing the ship commander report, flight deck commander report, and stories from sailors within sight of the disaster area... none evident here
Journal News columnist
#20. To: salemguy, Christine (#17)
This purports to be from the Navy JAG report. http://www.skyhawk.org/flattops/forrestaldeck.htm [very large at link] "Forrestal Flight Deck Layout from JAG Report" 
#21. To: nolu_chan (#19)
another corroboration
The mission never happened. At 10:52 a.m., just as McCain and the other pilots were climbing into their cockpits, an electrical mishap prematurely triggered a rocket on an F-4 Phantom jet. The rocket streaked across the deck, severely burning men as it went and tearing off the arm of one crewman before it tore through the 400-gallon fuel tank on McCain's plane. It landed in the ocean and never exploded.
Do You Know What Freedom Really Means? Freedom4um.com
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