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(s)Elections
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Title: Forrestal Incident
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 11, 2008
Author: salemguy
Post Date: 2008-10-11 17:08:50 by salemguy
Keywords: Forrestal, McCain, hotdog
Views: 374
Comments: 21

I have some open questions I think are important. They are about the truth of the Forrestal accident John McCain was involved in, in 1967. I believe a resolution of them can provide insight into his true character.

I learned about it from a friend a month ago and googled a lot of material, mostly inconclusive, often conflicting. One of the better comment sets I found was here, but I can't find it now, so I'm sending this as a general post, not really an article.

I've read zionist nut interpretations and murky, early morning hangover-like assertions, and seen "official" videos, but a former carrier flight deck navy man whose name I can't remember provided good information here on actual operational logistics that still leave me with questions.

The central question is and has been whether or not McCain, with his "hot dog" behavior and reputation, caused the accident, resulting in loss of many lives on the ship, and millions of dollars in loss of planes and damage to the ship.

Cutting to the chase through my own confusion...

A4's of that era were started with external air power. Who controls the fuel switch? It still seems to me that a pilot who wanted to haze other pilots with a "wet start" (big flame on ignition) could effect that.

Where did the errant missle that started the fires hit McCain's fuel tank come from, and why? The only credible explanation I've seen is that it was a result of a McCain wet start, from the plane behind, or another not behind?

Why was McCain transferred from the Forrestal to the Oriskany? I've read two versions of that transfer... one that it happened immediately and another that it happened after a couple weeks of R&R in Saigon (why?), but in either case he left the Forrestal that day, as far as I can tell.

That suggests to me a "fragging" might have occurred? Fragging, for those who may not know, is the killing of officers by enlisted personnel for perceived wrongs.

I would really like to hear from Forrestal vets who were there. I think a set of reflections from them may help resolve these questions.

McCain lost four planes in his Naval career with his hot dog attitude, it appears, and a fifth when he was shot down. Most pilots would lose their flight status after one or two, I'd think.

In any event, I still think the Forrestal incident bears some scrutiny.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 15.

#10. To: salemguy (#0)

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/print_did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html


No "Wet Start"

A special note is in order here. We have seen some baseless claims that McCain was somehow responsible for the Forrestal disaster. One incorrect but widely quoted theory has him triggering the Zuni missile with the exhaust of his own plane by "wet-starting" – deliberately dumping fuel into the afterburner before starting in order to shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. This is a preposterous notion. For one thing, A-4 jets flew at subsonic speeds and were not equipped with afterburners. According to the Military Analysis Network site maintained by the Federation of American Scientists, the A-4 was powered by a "Single, Pratt & Whitney, J-52-P-408A
non-afterburning, turbojet engine." The manufacturer's description of the aircraft also describes the powerplant as "One 11,187-pound-thrust P&W J52-P408 engine," with no mention of an afterburner.


And while pilots tell us that a “wet start” is possible even without an afterburner, the theory fails for another reason. The tail of McCain's plane was pointed over the side of the carrier and away from other planes at the time, and the F4 Phantom fighter that fired the missile was facing McCain's plane from the opposite side of the deck, as shown in Caiella’s diagram, in other diagrams, and in Navy film of the fire.

This bogus theory appears to have gotten its start from a report by New York Times reporter R. W. Apple. Jr, who reported on July 31, 1967 – two days after the fire – that the Forrestal’s captain, John K. Beling, believed an “extreme wet start” had created “a thick tongue of flame” that set off the Zuni. Beling did not identify McCain’s plane as the source, however, and said only that the aircraft was “parked near the carrier’s island,” which would have put it far forward and on the opposite side of the flight deck from where McCain’s plane was getting ready to launch. Not usually noted by the conspiracy theorists is that Capt. Beling “repeatedly said that he had been unable fully to sort out the conflicting reports” that circulated on the 5,000-man vessel in the hours after the fire, according to Apple, who also called the wet-start theory “tentative.” In any case, Beling’s early theory was soon dismissed by Navy investigators, who found that the Zuni had been touched off by a stray electrical charge, not by a jet exhaust. Author Freeman summarizes the findings succinctly in in "Sailors to the End:"

Freeman, 2002 (p. 250): The investigation revealed that the rocket (fired) because a freak surge of electricity jumped through the plane's system at the moment the pilot switched from the outside electrical generator to the plane's internal power system.
And as Caiella also notes in his account, the investigation found that in the wartime pressure to get planes launched quickly crews had not observed two key safety precautions that could have prevented the stray spike of electricity from firing the rocket. The “pigtail” that connects the plane’s wiring to the missile had been plugged in prematurely, before the plane was on the catapult, and a safety pin that also would have prevented the firing also had been removed.

Freeman has posted an item on his own Web site flatly stating that McCain was in no way responsible for the accident. "McCain was never suspected of causing the fire because investigators determined immediately that the rocket misfired from the other side of the flight deck," writes Freeman.


Caiella agrees. He told us: “There is no possible way John McCain could have caused the fire on board the Forrestal. . . . McCain's only connection with the investigation was as a witness, in both a written deposition shortly after the fire and later in sworn testimony to the board.”

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-10-12   2:08:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: nolu_chan (#10)

i knew i asked the right guy. thanks so much. i'm going to bookmark this thread myself.

christine  posted on  2008-10-12   2:32:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: christine (#11)

thanks so much.

You're welcome.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-10-12   3:35:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: nolu_chan, salemguy (#14)

salemguy better return. ;) i'd hate for you to have taken all that time and effort with these posts (tho much appreciated by me) and for him not to see it.

btw, i cannot stand john mcCain. heaven knows there's plenty not to like. he shouldn't be blamed for something that he was not responsible for though. the facts and truth (i guess that's going to be open for individual interpretation too) of the Forrestal incident should be known.

christine  posted on  2008-10-12   17:07:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 15.

#16. To: christine (#15)

You may want to check out THIS Article in Rolling Stone about McCain. I found it very interesting.

Elliott Jackalope  posted on  2008-10-12 17:16:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: christine (#15)

salemguy better return...

Yup, I have, and thank you nolu for all the stories and details. Short of seeing the ship commander report, flight deck commander report, and stories from sailors within sight of the disaster area... none evident here, I have to think McCain didn't cause the incident. Good enough.

Thanks again, to all.

salemguy  posted on  2008-10-12 17:57:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 15.

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