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(s)Elections
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Title: Forrestal Incident
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 11, 2008
Author: salemguy
Post Date: 2008-10-11 17:08:50 by salemguy
Keywords: Forrestal, McCain, hotdog
Views: 379
Comments: 21

I have some open questions I think are important. They are about the truth of the Forrestal accident John McCain was involved in, in 1967. I believe a resolution of them can provide insight into his true character.

I learned about it from a friend a month ago and googled a lot of material, mostly inconclusive, often conflicting. One of the better comment sets I found was here, but I can't find it now, so I'm sending this as a general post, not really an article.

I've read zionist nut interpretations and murky, early morning hangover-like assertions, and seen "official" videos, but a former carrier flight deck navy man whose name I can't remember provided good information here on actual operational logistics that still leave me with questions.

The central question is and has been whether or not McCain, with his "hot dog" behavior and reputation, caused the accident, resulting in loss of many lives on the ship, and millions of dollars in loss of planes and damage to the ship.

Cutting to the chase through my own confusion...

A4's of that era were started with external air power. Who controls the fuel switch? It still seems to me that a pilot who wanted to haze other pilots with a "wet start" (big flame on ignition) could effect that.

Where did the errant missle that started the fires hit McCain's fuel tank come from, and why? The only credible explanation I've seen is that it was a result of a McCain wet start, from the plane behind, or another not behind?

Why was McCain transferred from the Forrestal to the Oriskany? I've read two versions of that transfer... one that it happened immediately and another that it happened after a couple weeks of R&R in Saigon (why?), but in either case he left the Forrestal that day, as far as I can tell.

That suggests to me a "fragging" might have occurred? Fragging, for those who may not know, is the killing of officers by enlisted personnel for perceived wrongs.

I would really like to hear from Forrestal vets who were there. I think a set of reflections from them may help resolve these questions.

McCain lost four planes in his Naval career with his hot dog attitude, it appears, and a fifth when he was shot down. Most pilots would lose their flight status after one or two, I'd think.

In any event, I still think the Forrestal incident bears some scrutiny.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 19.

#10. To: salemguy (#0)

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/print_did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html

And while pilots tell us that a “wet start” is possible even without an afterburner, the theory fails for another reason. The tail of McCain's plane was pointed over the side of the carrier and away from other planes at the time, and the F4 Phantom fighter that fired the missile was facing McCain's plane from the opposite side of the deck, as shown in Caiella’s diagram, in other diagrams, and in Navy film of the fire.

This bogus theory appears to have gotten its start from a report by New York Times reporter R. W. Apple. Jr, who reported on July 31, 1967 – two days after the fire – that the Forrestal’s captain, John K. Beling, believed an “extreme wet start” had created “a thick tongue of flame” that set off the Zuni. Beling did not identify McCain’s plane as the source, however, and said only that the aircraft was “parked near the carrier’s island,” which would have put it far forward and on the opposite side of the flight deck from where McCain’s plane was getting ready to launch. Not usually noted by the conspiracy theorists is that Capt. Beling “repeatedly said that he had been unable fully to sort out the conflicting reports” that circulated on the 5,000-man vessel in the hours after the fire, according to Apple, who also called the wet-start theory “tentative.” In any case, Beling’s early theory was soon dismissed by Navy investigators, who found that the Zuni had been touched off by a stray electrical charge, not by a jet exhaust. Author Freeman summarizes the findings succinctly in in "Sailors to the End:"

Freeman, 2002 (p. 250): The investigation revealed that the rocket (fired) because a freak surge of electricity jumped through the plane's system at the moment the pilot switched from the outside electrical generator to the plane's internal power system.

Caiella agrees. He told us: “There is no possible way John McCain could have caused the fire on board the Forrestal. . . . McCain's only connection with the investigation was as a witness, in both a written deposition shortly after the fire and later in sworn testimony to the board.”

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-10-12   2:08:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

i knew i asked the right guy. thanks so much. i'm going to bookmark this thread myself.

christine  posted on  2008-10-12   2:32:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

thanks so much.

You're welcome.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-10-12   3:35:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

salemguy better return. ;) i'd hate for you to have taken all that time and effort with these posts (tho much appreciated by me) and for him not to see it.

btw, i cannot stand john mcCain. heaven knows there's plenty not to like. he shouldn't be blamed for something that he was not responsible for though. the facts and truth (i guess that's going to be open for individual interpretation too) of the Forrestal incident should be known.

christine  posted on  2008-10-12   17:07:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

salemguy better return...

Yup, I have, and thank you nolu for all the stories and details. Short of seeing the ship commander report, flight deck commander report, and stories from sailors within sight of the disaster area... none evident here, I have to think McCain didn't cause the incident. Good enough.

Thanks again, to all.

salemguy  posted on  2008-10-12   17:57:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Short of seeing the ship commander report, flight deck commander report, and stories from sailors within sight of the disaster area... none evident here

www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.d...09110438/1010/COLUMNIST08

September 11, 2008

For former sailor, Forrestal fire remains vivid tragedy

Phil Reisman
Journal News columnist

The fourth-period bell rang at Highlands Middle School in White Plains. Jon Hotchkiss dismissed his math class and sat down and talked about a wartime disaster that happened 41 years ago on a clear summer morning on an aircraft carrier somewhere off the coast of North Vietnam.

A central player in this tale is John McCain, a man Hotchkiss knew and admired. This was the McCain of legend - the brash, swashbuckling Navy pilot who seemed to have had more lives than a cat.

The story begins in New Hampshire, where Hotchkiss grew up, the youngest of five sons. Life on the farm was not easy in the best of times. But when his father died, Hotchkiss was forced to make a life-changing, adult decision that belied his age of 16.

"There was not a lot of money on the farm," he said. "I had my size early - I was big for my age. And I didn't want to be a burden to my mother because, without my father running the farm, there was no money coming in.

"So I thought it would be best that I left."

He decided to join the Navy. Because he was underage, he fudged the birth date on the forms. Hotchkiss might've gotten away with it, too, except that his mother stepped in and said there was no way she'd let the Navy take him until he finished high school.

So he spent his senior year attending school during the day and going to Naval Reserve meetings on Monday nights.

"Five days after I graduated from high school, I was in boot camp," he said. "I was 17."

The year was 1966.

After more training, Seaman Hotchkiss quickly found himself assigned to the USS Forrestal, an aircraft carrier with a 5,000-member crew that was dispatched across the globe to stage bombing sorties over North Vietnam. The farm in New Hampshire seemed far, far away.

"Growing up, I saw a lot of animals and a lot of dirt, and I pushed a lot of hay" Hotchkiss said. "But I certainly had not seen the world."

Aboard the Forrestal was McCain, an A-4 Skyhawk pilot who was about 30 years old. Hotchkiss remembered that McCain was loud, cocky and loved to joke.

One time, McCain came up to Hotchkiss and barked, "Hotchkiss! You get that report done yet? I gave it to you five days ago. Why don't you have it done?"

Stunned, Hotchkiss stammered out an apology.

McCain looked at him and said, "Aw, you don't have it done because I didn't give it to you yet!"

Hotchkiss laughed at the memory. He liked McCain. "He always treated us fair and square," he said.

On the morning of July 29, 1967, the Forrestal was engaged in its fifth day of combat operations and had yet to lose a plane after 150 sorties. McCain and 26 other pilots were parked on the flight deck, readying for the day's second launch scheduled for 11 a.m.

The mission never happened. At 10:52 a.m., just as McCain and the other pilots were climbing into their cockpits, an electrical mishap prematurely triggered a rocket on an F-4 Phantom jet. The rocket streaked across the deck, severely burning men as it went and tearing off the arm of one crewman before it tore through the 400-gallon fuel tank on McCain's plane. It landed in the ocean and never exploded.

But the highly flammable fuel from the ruptured tank instantly ignited. Fanned by 37 mph wind, the fire quickly spread. McCain's plane was ablaze, as were others on the deck. According to an account in a riveting book about the Forestal disaster, "Sailors To The End," by Gregory A. Freeman, one pilot managed to get away from the blaze and appeared to be heading for safety when, apparently dazed and disoriented, "inexplicably walked back into the heart of the fire" and disappeared.

Hotchkiss recalled how McCain escaped death.

"He crawls out in front of his plane, jumps down to the deck which is covered in flames, rolls through the flames and his flight suit catches fire. He comes out, pats himself down to put the flames out.

"As he's running away, he turns around to look at his plane and the first bomb went off, covering him with shrapnel. He got shrapnel from his own bombs."

The fragments struck him in the chest and thighs. Freeman in his book describes how a headless body flew through the air and landed at McCain's feet. Despite his wounds, McCain helped crewmen throw bombs overboard.

Nevertheless, several bombs were triggered in the inferno and within minutes the Forrestal was in a conflagration reminiscent of the havoc caused by kamikaze attacks of World War II. That the ship didn't sink may have been a miracle, but its salvation was really owed to the men who bravely fought to keep it afloat.

Hotchkiss barely slept over a three-day period. One of his jobs was to man a telephone in the ship's damage control center.

"For the first 24 hours straight, I was working phones and then I got three hours of sleep," he said. "The next 24 hours, I was fighting fires in relief and got another three hours of sleep. And the next 24 hours, as we were pulling into port, I helped look for bodies."

During his stint in the damage control center, 19 firefighters found themselves trapped in flames with no visible means of escape. Using ship maps, Hotchkiss talked them through the smoke-filled maze of hallways and ladders - and every one of them got out.

Others weren't so lucky. Hotchkiss knew several of the 134 men from the Forrestal who were killed that day.

Decommissioned, the Forrestal today is docked in Newport, R.I., its future uncertain. Hotchkiss finished his education and began teaching in 1982. His career in the Navy and Naval Reserve lasted 33 years. Until now, he has never talked much about Vietnam, let alone the Forrestal incident. He never goes to ship reunions and has no desire to visit Vietnam, a place it seems he'd rather forget. If only he could.

Sitting in his White Plains classroom, Hotchkiss looked back across the decades. "We were all so young," he said.

As for McCain, well, the rest of his story is being told and retold.

Hotchkiss remembers how after the fire, McCain could've easily been transferred to safe duty. Instead, he ordered Hotchkiss to place a call to his father, the admiral. He remembered that McCain pleaded with the old man not to allow the Pentagon to pull strings for him. He wanted to be sent back into action, a wish that was granted and resulted, eventually, in his being shot down and captured.

Hotchkiss supports McCain's quest for the presidency, but with a caveat that he punctuated with laughter.

"I don't support everything," he said. "He's a big fan of charter schools. I'm a big fan of public education."

- - - - -

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-10-12   21:17:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#21. To: nolu_chan (#19)

The mission never happened. At 10:52 a.m., just as McCain and the other pilots were climbing into their cockpits, an electrical mishap prematurely triggered a rocket on an F-4 Phantom jet. The rocket streaked across the deck, severely burning men as it went and tearing off the arm of one crewman before it tore through the 400-gallon fuel tank on McCain's plane. It landed in the ocean and never exploded.

another corroboration

christine  posted on  2008-10-12 21:46:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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