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Title: Theocracy Alert -
Is the 'Rapture' a rupture?
Source:
Online Journal
URL Source: http://www.onlinejournal.com/Theocr ... t/071605Mazza/071605mazza.html
Published: Jul 16, 2005
Author: Jerry Mazza, Online Journal Contributing
Post Date: 2005-07-21 10:56:42 by robin
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Keywords: Theocracy, Rapture, rupture?
Views: 361
Comments: 19
July 16, 2005—Is the "Rapture" of Evangelical Christianity really a rupture from biblical truth? For thousands of years certain Christians have been predicting the end times. Armageddon and the Second Coming were just around the corner—but not before the rise of the Antichrist and seven years of battle. These Christians also believe the "Rapture" the Bible supposedly spoke of would allow certain true believers to be swept up to heaven to watch the end times, like the War in Iraq from their living room TVs. Yet scholars say the word ""Rapture"" is not anywhere in the Bible. So the first rupture is from the reality of the good book. In fact, the man who really hoisted the "Rapture" was not a biblical scribe or prophet, but John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), the founder of premillennial dispensationalism, his vision of the Christian end times. With great missionary zeal, he brought his teachings from his native Ireland to England and across Europe and North America to convert a generation of evangelical clergy and lay people. Darby's dispensationalism teaches that there are seven ways, "dispensations," (or time frames), in which the Creator deals with people. We're in frame six, dispensation six, and that will be followed, thank God, by a 1,000-year reign of peace, the Millennial Kingdom. But the time before that will be hell, leading to the final the battle of good against evil at Armageddon, actually a valley northwest of Jerusalem in the real world. Darby too believed some will get a pass on the mess and get swept up in the rush of the "Rapture". But "Rapture's" history can't be discussed without looking at an earlier idea in Christian eschatology (or end times theory). It said Jesus would come back and put together his Millennium Kingdom after the world had been evangelized. Another notion from England gave a big role to revamping Israel for the end times as well. This ideological coupling gave Christian Zionism the jump on Jewish Zionism. One of the leaders in this movement, Sir Henry Finch, power lawyer and member of British Parliament, wrote a treatise in 1621, putting forth the notion that the government and its people should rally for Jewish settlement in Palestine. This was in order to fulfill what he perceived as a biblical prophecy. Three hundred eight-four years later settlement has turned to the state of Israel, with the Palestinians hanging on for dear life. Obviously, Darby successfully spun Finch's idea into the warp and woof of his teaching. His followers put a major effort into making it happen as well. Most notably in the 20th century, there were British prime ministers Lord Arthur Balfour and David Lloyd George, two of the era's most powerful men—both reared in dispensationalist churches. And here we slide gently as an invading force across the borderline from theology to politics, as they used a Zionist agenda to colonize the region. The "Rapture" is used to rupture the real estate from Palestinians based on a religious political agenda. Of course, America caught the "Rapture." Back in 1891, William Blackstone, a Darby believer, author of Jesus Is Coming (1882), initiated the first of a long line of Zionist lobbying efforts. He had powerful help from J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Charles Scribner and other high-rollers, sponsoring a newspaper blitz for President Benjamin Harrison to back the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. And so it began and ended: in a stream of wars of appropriation and rebellion, from 1948, 56, 67, 68–70, 73, 78, 82 to the Intifada of 1987–93 and the Gulf War of 1990–1991 and on. In 1999, we arrived in the new light of a century and millennium with the usual fear of apocalypse lurking like Y2K. Yet those Christians who saw themselves as given a pass by the "Rapture" held to the idea of rebuilding Solomon's Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The problem was that the space was filled by the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosque, two of Islam's most sacred sites. In that same year, more than 60 fundamentalist Christians were corralled and expelled from Israel by court order, and most of them were Americans. Fourteen were members of Denver-based Concerned Christians, who were arrested and deport because the authorities feared a suicide shootout with police on the Temple Mount. In October 1999, Israeli cops tossed out 21 Christians who had squatted around the Mount of Olives to wait for Christ's return. Now theology was challenging public law and safety. One of the deported blamed the group's arrest on the devil: he didn't like them preaching Jesus in Israel. And so it went. And so it goes. The "Rapture" ruptures itself from law in the name of absolute religious truth, which is neither absolute, really religious nor the truth, but a belief system designed for and by a certain sect of people to gain specific ends. These convictions of Christian end time seekers, blended with those of Israeli Zionists, evolve again into political disaster, rupturing into the Intifada of 2000. It continues on and off to this day, with more hostilities and bloodshed, pitting Palestinians fighting for their remaining homelands against Israelis with a missionary zeal to appropriate them. In fact in February of 2005, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon finally agreed to a withdrawal from the Gaza strip and four West Bank settlements. Settlers who opposed the separation rallied radical right-wing Jews and even Christian Zionists for help. In the US, where military recruitment is down for Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, thousands of Jews and Christians wait for the call to join the "struggle" of Gaza settlers, an event slated for this month. And the missionary zeal perpetuates the military and political insanity. And of course, given the evangelical thrust from Bush, his White House and supporters, this only adds oil to the fires of conflict and apocalypse. The "Rapture" Ruptures America The power of this vested evangelical force in America today is not to be underestimated. A 2002 Time/CNN poll showed that 36 percent of Americans believe the Bible is the actual word of God and should be taken quite literally. Fifty-nine percent believe the events in the Book of Revelation are a done deal. And close to a quarter think the Bible predicted the WTC attack. Remember the Bible teaching that many are talking about, that word, has been tainted and translated by the likes of Darby and Blackstone, not to mention contemporary "Rapture" seekers, through the skewed focus of their own lenses. Rising among "Rapture" powers today are authors Jerry B. Jenkins and the Rev. Tim LaHaye, also a Christian Reconstructionist and co-founder, with Jerry Falwell, of Moral Majority. In fact, in that name you have the problem. First, the self-anointed handle of moral, assuming what, that everyone else is immoral? Second is the assumption that they are a majority, and therefore entitled to exercise their beliefs on public policy, in violation of the constitutional separation of church and state. But then, in their estimation, they answer to a higher power, and of course, its "Rapture". Jenkins and LaHaye have written a series of 12 Left Behind screed-novels. They deal with the abandoned no-accounts who become true believers, and in their new zeal, battle the seven-year reign of the Antichrist, not to mention the plagues of the Seven Seals. Their books lay on the Darby doctrine and pound out biblical infallibility from the Book of Revelation: bodies of water turn to blood and heavyweight hailstones rain on non-believers. They include the beyond Hollywood script of Revelations, 9:7–10, in which hordes of hungry locusts, looking like teeny horses with human faces, long hair, and golden crowns on their heads, attack. Left Behind, which seems an apt assessment of the authors' writing skills, nevertheless turns out to be the all-time, best-selling Christian fiction series, topped only by the Bible itself. Sixty-two million books sold, 1 million around the world, more than 10 million copies of the series for kids. Add to that movie rights and audiotapes and they're raking in big bucks for the "Rapture". The last book in the series, Glorious Appearing, with sales in the millions, lays out the Second Coming of a kick-ass, blood-sucking Jesus, an "avenging Jesus who slaughters non-believers by the millions." All right, just what we needed. Peace, baby. If this tilts your stomach, it must be because you're a liberal. LaHaye declares that "liberalism has so twisted the real meaning of Scripture that we've manufactured a loving, wimpy Jesus that wouldn't even do anything in judgment." If that makes your eyes spin, watch out. In the dynamic duo's version of the last judgment, nonbelievers' eyes melt in their heads, tongues disintegrate, and flesh drops of the bones. Okay, so that's what you're dealing with. And LaHaye, some say the tougher of the two, was picked, according to the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals' newsletter, as the most influential evangelical leader in the United States. He's founder of the Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy, to help you interpret biblical predictions, just in case you've come up short after the 12 "novels." There's also the Pre-Trib Research Center that puts out The Pre-Trib Perspectives, to keep you on "the cutting edge of prophetic events as they unfold." In case, you need a quick hit, there's RaptureReady.com, for all your Pre-Trib "Rapture" and related end time prophecy needs. Reality once more bests fiction, or at least this fiction is ruptured from reality as we know it. But don't worry. There's even a Rapture Index based on weekly events, sort of like a Dow Jones of end time happenings. Bless these folks, they think of everything. The question is what do you think about it? Maybe it's time to look at your Bible. And this time read the small print real close . . . "For these days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled . . . for the power of heaven shall be shaken . . . This generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled." (Jesus to his disciples in Luke 21:22–32, and with similar wording from Matthew 24:30–34 and Mark 1:24–30). "Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Jesus to his disciples in Matthew 16:28 and also in Mark9:1 and Luke 9:27) I can only add to this scripture this chestnut that "beauty is in the mind of the beholder." And in this case so are the meanings of those lines, and the Bible itself. Unfortunately in this battle of compromised meanings, it seems the future of America and the globe itself are precariously balanced. Jerry Mazza is a freelance writing living in New York. Reach him at gvmaz@verizon.net.
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#1. To: robin, DoctorStrangeLove (#0)
LOL, Say it ain't so :( Oh well, better luck next time.
John 14:3 Jesus said, "I will come again." So will Mike Ditka
Stunning idea, if only Mazza himself had actally done that. The "rapture" is not described or foretold in the verses Mazza cited. The "rapture" is an anglicanized word from the Latin 'rapiere' translated from the original Greek "harpázo" (Strong's G726) used by Paul (translated into english as "caught up") in: The "rapture" is not as Mazza mistakenly implies: Mazza has self-servingly deleted with ellipses the very words which to which Christ referred in this passage: (32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. The last generation, the one to see the things Jesus foretold which would come when the times of the Gentile are fulfilled (which they have not, yet) that generation is the one that would not pass away until all aforementioned things take place. Mazza misunderstands the meaning here of "taste death". Jesus meant, and Paul elaborates in: 2Co 5:6-8 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 1Th 4:13-15 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. The believer in Jesus who dies does not actually experience what, to those still physcially alive and observing, appears to be a physical death - the believer whose physical body dies does not "taste" that death but instead their soul or spirit goes to be with the Lord to await the rapture and the resurrection of their physical body. And (sigh) Darby didn't "invent" this. As anyone can plainly see, it has been in the Bible since Jesus (and Paul) spoke (wrote) the words.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Jesus in verse 32 refers to "this generation [which sees the aforementioned things happening, sees the signs of the end of the age, similar to seeing a fig tree budding indicating] will not pass away until all things take place." That generation did not pass away when the temple was razed .. Darby didnt invent them but he skewed 1800 or so years of orthodox biblical interpretation.
"...when a society believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda..."
Agreed, he did misinterpret what the bible actually says. Ah, but that generation has passed away, now hasn't it. And to construe the destruction of Temple and fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD as fulfillment of Dan 9:27 and the 'signs of the end of the age' requires that you ignore or 'spiritualize' other aspects of the prophecy (such as "nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines" and "THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.") and further requires that events in history (30AD - 70AD ) be moved in time or invented. Stay tuned for my posting of a proof that Dan 9:26b & 27 (to which Jesus referred in Mat 24:15) is unfulfilled prophecy.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
First of all Daniels prophesy .. references to the "end of the age" has to do with the end of the old covenant.. the coming of the new.. nation did raise up against nation.. kingdom was against kingdom.. see Matthew 27:50-56 Mt 28:2 I already have the proof.. that is in the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.. the futurists for some reason tend to ignore the FIRST coming of Jesus and that the OT was the foretelling of His coming and the prophesy of a better covenant.. the covenant purchased with His blood.
"...when a society believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda..."
Of course, America caught the "Rapture." Back in 1891, William Blackstone, a Darby believer, author of Jesus Is Coming (1882), initiated the first of a long line of Zionist lobbying efforts. He had powerful help from J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Charles Scribner and other high-rollers, sponsoring a newspaper blitz for President Benjamin Harrison to back the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. uh huh.
Yep, that's been my contention all along and the reason I stay out of these discussions. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and is convinced what they believe is absolute.
So, here are your two cites: Mat 28:2 And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. Rev 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. Are you going to argue that: (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
the book of Revelation is metaphor ..the story of the church.. not a literal accounting of future events.. Attempting to interpret the scripture with the newspaper is folly IMO. The destruction of the temple has great significance.. although by futurists it's nearly ignored. If you reference Josephus' and Eusebius' historical accounts, it is quite obvious how significant the destruction was. Jesus foretold of the destruction (as did Daniel) as He said in Matt 24:1 As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. 2 Then He replied to them, "Do you not see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!" And in Luke 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! Those inside the city must leave it, and those who are in the country must not enter it, 22 because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written. 23 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.... Now Jerusalem WAS surrounded by armies..and He said THIS generation did He not? So I will believe Him and His words. "And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against the Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place after their plot against our Saviour. For it was not before it, but afterwards from that day to this that God turned their feasts into mourning, despoiled them of their famous mother-city, and destroyed the holy Temple therein when Titus and Vespasian were Emperors of Rome, so that they could no longer go up to keep their feasts and sacred meetings. I need not say that a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord has overtaken them all, in return for their rejection of the Word of God; since with one voice they refused Him, so He refuses them." (Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica, X)
"...when a society believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda..."
As I said, to defend Dan 9:26b & 27 as fulfilled you'll have to 'spiritualize' it so as to have a reason to avoid matching it up with events you won't find in history. You further have to be inconsistent in your interpretation of the historical events you do acknowledge. If Dan 9:26b & 27 (to which Jesus referred in Mat 24: 15) are all fulfilled as you assert and acknowledge, then: Nor have you addressed your inconsistencies that: Mar 13:24-25 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Luk 21:10 Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, (11) and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Were "those days cut short"? Are all the elect saved as of those days? (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
You further have to be inconsistent in your interpretation of the historical events you do acknowledge. If Dan 9:26b & 27 (to which Jesus referred in Mat 24: 15) are all fulfilled as you assert and acknowledge, then: * who was the Antichrist, * what was the covenant he confirmed, * when did he commit the abomination? First re the anti-christ.. the word was used 4 times in scripture and by John..and not in Revelation: 1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us . 1 John 4:3..and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. Now John is saying that the crux of the problem is the denial of Christ come in the flesh.. those were with them.. apparently professing Christians that werent truly of Christ.. And John said the antichrist "which you heard is coming AND is ALREADY in the world. Not some person that will be coming 2 thousand years later but was in the world when John wrote the passage..in the first century. Regarding the 'rapture'.. John 17:15 15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 "They R1103 are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Now if the 'rapture' were truth.. and some future event and that Christians would be removed from the world while satan went hog wild so to speak.. would Jesus Himself had said this? Also, Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust... the just AND the unjust will resurrect at His return.. You seem to believe that nation against nation has to do with some political system.. some earthly government.. which IMO it is not.. Jesus said my kingdom is NOT of this world.. Now dealing with 25 different issues at a time is a tad confusing so if we can take one or two issues at a time..then it would all make more sense.
"...when a society believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda..."
But Paul did say it was truth and some future event, I won't bother to repeat the cites, you already know them and pretending they don't need to be reconciled in your viewpoint advances nothing. And Jesus did say: Was Jesus warning them to watch for a metaphor? Did Jesus not say some would be taken, or would they only be taken metaphorically? And if Jesus had said "My nation is not of this world..." you might have a point... but He didn't say that, did he. And if His kingdom was no longer against any other kingdom, again you might have a point, but His Kingdom is still opposed by the Prince of the air, isn't it. Or was Paul only speaking metaphorically about battling powers and principalities? Well, that is the problem often with scripture, it doesn't always come as neatly packaged as we might like, and there are numerous issues that point to Dan 9:27 and Revelation as unfilled (not merely a metaphor). But back to the basics: Mar 13:24-25 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Luk 21:10 Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, (11) and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Excuse me?? Im not pretending anything..
"...when a society believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda..."
Indeed you're not pretending anything. You seem to have taken the third veiw expressed by Sandy Fiedler in the conclusion of her article--"that only God knows when the Second Coming will occur." HOW DID WE GET THE IDEA OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE? By Sandy Fiedler How did we get the idea that a secret, imminent, pre-tribulation rapture will save the church from this evil world? Despite being reared in southern fundamentalist churches that taught this doctrine, I never could fully grasp it, although I tried. While reading THE RAPTURE CULT by Robert L. Pierce (Signal Point Press, 138 Cunningham Lane, Signal Mountain TN 37377; $3.00ea), I found missing pieces of this puzzling doctrine. Following is a brief explanation, summarized from the book, describing how we got the doctrine. To understand, we must return to the 19th century British Isles. In 1830 in Port Glasgow, Scotland, Margaret Macdonald expressed her belief that scripture taught that Christians would be raptured, or translated, from the earth before the Great Tribulation. This is the first time that anyone in Christian history had distinguished two stages of the Second Coming: the first stage, in which Christians are taken out, and the second stage, in which Jesus returns to earth. Two religious sects in Britain took up Margaret’s idea. One was the Catholic Apostolic Church headed by Edward Irving (1792-1834). This sect believed that because the Second Coming was imminent, they had the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy and speaking in tongues, as the apostles did. The other group that adopted Margaret Macdonald’s idea was the Brethren or Plymouth Brethren organized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter. The new doctrine was not received unanimously. "The Roots of Fundamentalism," by Ernest R. Sandeen, in discussing the history of the Brethren, says that Darby introduced the idea of a secret rapture of the church and a gap in prophetic fulfillment between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel. These beliefs became basic to the system of theology known as dispensationalism. From 1862 to 1877, Darby lived in and traveled throughout the United States and Canada, spreading his message. He was a very appealing speaker and also intolerant to criticism. At first he tried to win members of existing Protestant congregations to his sect, but met with little success. He then spread his end-times message to influential clergymen and laymen in churches in major cities without insisting they leave their denominations. Two of his converts were James Hall Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and Adoniram Judson Gordon, pastor of Clarendon St. Baptist Church in Boston. These two men became leaders of the movement which spread the doctrine throughout the northeast and Midwest during the last quarter of the 19th century. Dwight L. Moody also accepted the doctrine. From 1883-1897, each summer at Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, James H. Brookes led conferences which spread the doctrine very successfully to conservative church leaders of America who were concerned about the liberal influence of "higher criticism" that was making inroads into churches. The new message spread from the leaders down to the local congregations. In 1897 there was a split of conference participants into two groups: a pro- Darby faction led by Arno C. Gaebelein and Cyrus I. Scofield, and an anti- Darby faction led by Robert Cameron. A five-year "paper war," in which each side wrote articles blasting the other side, ended in a win by the pro-Darby forces. Many of the anti-Darby forces simply retired from the scene to avoid controversy or died of old age without a new line of advocates to replace them. The pro-Darby force was aggressive at organizing new conferences and publicizing their message, which appealed to the wishful thinking of the masses. The foundation of the Darbyite message was that when evil is seen in society, Christians are to rejoice because that is a sign of the imminent return of Christ. To illustrate, there was even some concern that at the outset of the United States’ involvement in WWI that Americans would not respond because they might think they were fighting against the evil which was needed to bring Jesus back. A paralyzing religious neutralism had set in. Contrary to the time of the Revolutionary War when pastors strongly preached that citizens should battle the evil British oppression, 19th century pastors refrained from preaching topics drawn from current events and ceased to teach their flocks to be the light of the world. Rather, Christians withdrew into the four walls of the church building and let society and government run its godless course. The Darby doctrine can be seen, for example, in a 1933 issue of the fundamentalist Moody Monthly, which said that Christians did not need to take a stand on a hot topic at the time, whether or not to recognize atheistic Communist USSR, because the Second Coming might quickly solve the problem. Religious neutralism became the norm for Christian churches until the late 20th century when many Christians began taking a stand against evils in society like abortion and immorality in government leaders. The pre-trib rapture doctrine was further spread by Cyrus Scofield’s Reference Bible. Began in 1903 with unusually generous funding from wealthy businessmen, it was completed in 1909 and published and promoted by the very prestigious Oxford University Press. It is basically a King James Version with extensive footnote commentaries by Cyrus Scofield and consulting editors. In every passage that could possibly to related to end-times, the pre-trib rapture doctrine is espoused. Many readers throughout the years have been unaware of the difference between words of scriptura and opinions of Scofield. This version of the Bible has been so promoted that its views have affected every church and town in America. Geographically, the doctrine moved from its original foothold in the large cities of New York, Boston, Chicago, and St. Louis to the northeast and Midwest. Later it spread to the West and South, where it is very strong still. The doctrine is not taught in the liberal Protestant denominations but is taught in independent nondenominational and full-gospel churches and in some evangelical churches. Fundamentalist churches do not realize how relatively new the doctrines are. The Scofieldian doctrine is promoted unceasingly in the print media, radio, and TV, while more traditional views are hard to find. These media present the doctrine with a mindset that takes for granted that the entire audience believes it unquestioningly. In addition, Christian and secular bookstores have carried many titles promoting this view, an early example of which is Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth, first published in 1970, tying in the Second Coming with the formation of the state of Israel. As the millennium nears, hundreds of nonfiction and fiction end-times books appear. In fact, most national fundamental Christian leaders have a book or tape series on the Scofieldian view of the end-times. Also, most Christian TV and radio programs are produced by those with this point of view. Any given program is peppered with catch-phrases about the impending rapture and the Second Coming. Parallels are drawn between biblical prophecy of end-times and current events. However, this kind of thinking is not new. Repeatedly throughout world history, people have looked about them at conditions far worse than what we see today and have thought the end must surely be near. But it wasn’t. Incidentally, those who read the Bible in one hand and the Newsweek in the other should know that historically, many have believed that the book of Revelation was John’s message of warning to the Christians of his day of horrible impending persecution from Nero (whose name in Hebrew is 666) and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. and has therefore largely been fulfilled. There are more than two sides to a question. If one side says that the Bible is myth and the second side says that the Bible is the Word of God that teaches that the Second Coming is imminent, is there no other point of view possible? There is at least one more side. Millions of Christians in America and the world historically and presently believe a third view — that the Bible is the Word of God which teaches that only God knows when the Second Coming will occur. Meanwhile, Christians are to carry on with joy in the real world, living lives that glorify God. This encompasses the crux of Protestant beliefs prior to 1830. The truth sets us free. Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
I'm right. Everyone knows it. if they don't, G-D wants me to clense them with the sword. Then take their property (as it always really belonged to me anyway). Any questions??? Is so, ask sword!
I really think one can, if one desired, attribute deep spirtual meaning and significance to a comic book, flower, or vacuum cleaner owners manual etc, if one were so inclined. "When the container is full of filth it must be discarded". Maybe that is an important observation in it's self. I feel it reflects our search for a greater meaning, what ever that means. My etymology dictionary tells me "Diety" is derived from the Proto Indo European tounge,(PIE, if your cool), meaning something like "bright/shining, object/sky. Resonates well with the Egyptian's concept of the Sun God, the first monotheists, RA (the root of RAY??, as in the suns's rays?). Diety, Dios, became to the Greeks Zeus by a simple consonant shift. And The Romans called the guy "Zeus father" or more accurately, "Zeus Pater", Zeus Father, or confused to be "Jupiter". Who over threw his father, Saturn, and caused Saturn to hide from Cruel Jupiter in a land called Italy. There he was Latent, and the root word of the language of Latin is Latent. There he ruled over humans in a kind and just manner. There was no want, envy or evil, humans conversed with the animals, no flesh was eaten. This was man's "Golden Age". In classical mythology. It degenerated to the Age of Silver, then to the Age of Bronze (The Trojan Wars), and now, alas, to the man driven, godless, Age of Iron.
But Paul did say it was truth and some future event, I won't bother to repeat the cites, you already know them and pretending they don't need to be reconciled in your viewpoint advances nothing. "pretending" only in the sense that we both know you are aware and familiar with Paul's teaching of the "catching up" in 1 Th 4:16-17, if for no other reason than I quoted them in my first post to which you initially responded. You know the "rapture" is taught by Paul in the Bible. Ok (sigh) I'll now bother to repeat the cites, yet again: "until the coming of the Lord" - clearly a future event from Paul's perspective, and unless you're going to argue it happened and just didn't make the headlines, it remains a future event from our perspective as well, no? "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" - "caught up", the rapture, clearly the truth as Paul taught it. So when you write: Regarding the 'rapture' ... Now if the 'rapture' were truth.. and some future event that is a seeming pretension on your part in contrast to the bible's truthful teaching of the rapture as future event (as pointed out above and before in my post #3) - a pretension in that I don't doubt for one second you are unfamiliar with Paul's teaching in 1st Thess 4 and elsewhere, nor do I doubt this is the first time you've engaged debating this topic, nor do I believe you lack the intelligence to recognize that Paul was chosen and 'taught' by Christ and therefore Paul would not be teaching something in opposition to what Christ or the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul. Consequently what Paul teaches can and should reconcile (line up consistently) with what Christ taught. I think you know all that already. And yet, you postulate the rapture is not truth, not a future event. What is that if not a pretension? If you're not pretending (arguing a false position you won't or can't substantiate) then you must simply believe Paul was mistaken or lying. Well, do you? Or perhaps you can substantiate your view that what Paul teaches in 1 Thess 4: 15- 17 is in fact not the rapture, not future, and not true. So, will you? But then I've yet to see you substantiate any of your other inconsistencies ( questioned in my post #9, post #11, and post #13) which I won't restate for a 4th, and clearly pointless, time.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Thanks.. dispensationalism is IMO the biggest frauds and the most destructive force to Christianity.. for it has politicized Christianity and undermined close to 2000 years of othrodox interpretation of scripture. It takes the focus off of Christ's message .. If one sees the prophesies in light of the old/new covenant and the promise, scripture takes on new depth of understanding.
"...when a society believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda..."
Is the 'Rapture' a rupture?
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#2. To: DoctorStrangeLove (#0)
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#3. To: All, *Bereans* (#0)
Maybe it's time to look at your Bible. And this time read the small print real close . . .
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught726 up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
"For these days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled . . . for the power of heaven shall be shaken . . . This generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled." (Jesus to his disciples in Luke 21: 2251;32, and with similar wording from Matthew 24:3051;34 and Mark 1:2451;30).
Luk 21:22-32 (22) because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. (23) "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; (24) and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (25) "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, (26) men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (27) "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. (28) "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (29) Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; (30) as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. (31) "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
Jesus in verse 32 refers to "this generation [which sees the aforementioned things happening, sees the signs of the end of the age, similar to seeing a fig tree budding indicating] will not pass away until all things take place." "Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. " (Jesus to his disciples in Matthew 16:28 and also in Mark9:1 and Luke 9:27)
1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
that by "not taste death" is from the perspective of a person (having received the gift of salvation and believing and trusting in Jesus) whose physical body has died but their 'soul' (that part of us that comprises our personality, is aware, experiences, and remembers) does not "taste death" but instead is 'absent the [now dead physical] body and present [in soul & spirit] with the Lord'.
#4. To: Starwind (#3)
(32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
#5. To: Zipporah (#4)
Darby didnt invent them but he skewed 1800 or so years of orthodox biblical interpretation.
That generation did not pass away when the temple was razed..
#6. To: Starwind (#5)
#7. To: robin (#0)
Obviously, Darby successfully spun Finch's idea into the warp and woof of his teaching. His followers put a major effort into making it happen as well. Most notably in the 20th century, there were British prime ministers Lord Arthur Balfour and David Lloyd George, two of the era's most powerful men—both reared in dispensationalist churches. And here we slide gently as an invading force across the borderline from theology to politics, as they used a Zionist agenda to colonize the region. The "Rapture" is used to rupture the real estate from Palestinians based on a religious political agenda.
#8. To: robin, ALL (#0)
I can only add to this scripture this chestnut that "beauty is in the mind of the beholder." And in this case so are the meanings of those lines, and the Bible itself.
#9. To: Zipporah (#6)
references to the "end of the age" has to do with the end of the old covenant.. the coming of the new.. nation did raise up against nation.. kingdom was against kingdom.. see Matthew 27:50-56 Mt 28:2
Mat 27:51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
And now let's compare them to the events of Revelation which you believe to be fulfilled: Rev 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
And, I've not yet seen your cites of fulfillment of the rest of prohetic aspects, for example,
#10. To: Starwind (#9)
#11. To: Zipporah (#10)
the book of Revelation is metaphor ..the story of the church.. not a literal accounting of future events.. Attempting to interpret the scripture with the newspaper is folly IMO.
Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
These things have not yet happened, but if you insist they have, then you ought to be able to demonstrate how and when.
#12. To: Starwind (#11)
As I said, to defend Dan 9:26b & 27 as fulfilled you'll have to 'spiritualize' it so as to have a reason to avoid matching it up with events you won't find in history.
#13. To: Zipporah (#12)
Now if the 'rapture' were truth.. and some future event and that Christians would be removed from the world while satan went hog wild so to speak.. would Jesus Himself had said this?
Mat 24:37-42 (37) "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. (38) "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, (39) and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (40) "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. (41) "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. (42) "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
You seem to believe that nation against nation has to do with some political system.. some earthly government.. which IMO it is not.. Jesus said my kingdom is NOT of this world..
Now dealing with 25 different issues at a time is a tad confusing so if we can take one or two issues at a time..then it would all make more sense.
If Dan 9:26b & 27 (to which Jesus referred in Mat 24:15) are all fulfilled as you assert and acknowledge, then:
This list of issues is what it is, and I've cited only a fraction of what needs to be reconciled to demonstrate Dan 9:27 is fulfilled.
Nor have you addressed your inconsistencies that:
Is it your position that: Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
#14. To: Starwind (#13)
But Paul did say it was truth and some future event, I won't bother to repeat the cites, you already know them and pretending they don't need to be reconciled in your viewpoint advances nothing.
#15. To: Zipporah (#14)
Excuse me?? Im not pretending anything..
#16. To: christine (#8)
Yep, that's been my contention all along and the reason I stay out of these discussions. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and is convinced what they believe is absolute.
#17. To: christine, zipporah, robin (#8)
and the reason I stay out of these discussions. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and is convinced what they believe is absolute.
#18. To: Zipporah (#14)
Excuse me?? Im not pretending anything..
1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
#19. To: Zoroaster (#15)
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