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Title: A SYMBOL -- the “lake of fire”
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Published: Oct 28, 2008
Author: Richard -- various
Post Date: 2008-10-28 12:23:02 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 534
Comments: 29
A SYMBOL In examining these texts we readily see that the “lake of fire” is not a literal pool of flame. The “wild beast” is symbolic, as earlier shown in Revelation chapter 13, the “image” of it being described in chapter 17, where we are told that the seven heads of the “beast” represent seven ‘mountainlike’ kingdoms. These are understood by Bible commentators to be the seven world powers of Bible history. The five that had “fallen” were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The one that “was” at the time the apostle John wrote was Rome. The seventh has proved, from historical events, to be the Anglo-American World Power.—Rev. 17:9, 10; compare Daniel chapter 8. Similarly the “false prophet” is not a person, but is a system or an organization. A “prophet” claims to have inspired information for the direction of others. A “false prophet” would mislead others, to turn them away from God and toward false worship. What does this “false prophet” do to accomplish such purpose? He is shown in another guise in Revelation 13:11-17 as a two-horned “wild beast.” As such he is depicted as performing in front of the seven-headed “wild beast” the signs with which he misleads “those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image.”—Rev. 19:20. Since the “wild beast” and the “false prophet” are symbolic, the “lake of fire” is necessarily symbolic. Further supporting this conclusion is the fact that the abstract thing, “death,” is also hurled into the “lake of fire.” Death cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the demons are thrown into the “lake.” These are angels, spirit persons. Being spirit, they cannot be hurt by literal fire, which is a physical product of chemical combustion. In fact, we read often of spirit persons manifesting themselves to humans in a flame.—Ex. 3:1-5; Acts 7:30; Judg. 13:20; Ps. 104:4; Dan. 7:9, 10. Of what, then, is the “lake of fire” a symbol? The Bible says that it is, or that it means or symbolizes, the “second death.” (Rev. 20:14) This cannot mean that everything that goes into it dies a second time, for “death and Hades” have not died or gone out of existence in the past. The expression “second death” distinguishes this death, which is permanent and everlasting and from which there is no resurrection, from the death brought upon the human race by Adam. Adamic death is one “kind” of death, a death that all men inherit through no personal fault of their own. The “second death” is another “kind” of death. Individuals that go into the “second death” merit it because of their own deliberate choice of sin and enmity toward God. This is evident by the action of those the Bible speaks of as being sentenced to the “second death.” Further evidence or testimony as to what the “lake of fire” represents and who finally receive the judgment of this death is found in Revelation 21:7, 8. After describing the good effects that the New Jerusalem will bring about in the earth, the prophecy quotes the words of God, saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” All persons who choose such a way of life and spurn God’s provision of Christ’s atonement sacrifice for recovering from such a degraded condition will thus be obliterated forever from existence. So God’s fiery judgment comes upon all those who are his avowed enemies. Of those of the “Gog and Magog” crowd who follow the Devil in his renewed attack on God’s sovereignty at the end of the thousand years, we read: “Fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.” They go into the “second death.” The “lake of fire” likewise burns up all humans who do not obey the “things written in the scrolls” of instruction during Christ’s thousand-year rule. None of these finally find their names written in the “book of life.” (Rev. 20:9, 12, 15) The same punishment of “second death” is executed upon Satan and his demons, who are hurled into the “lake of fire.” All are everlastingly dead. There is not a spark of life in the “second death,” which is the everlasting punishment for those who willfully disobey God. There was not a bit of life in the first kind of death, that which came to Adam’s offspring by his first sin. That first kind of death would have been permanent had it not been for the love and undeserved kindness of Jehovah God in providing Christ’s sacrifice. The “second death” is permanent, for there is no atonement sacrifice for those going into it. The apostle Paul wrote: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.”—Heb. 10:26, 27. NO CONSCIOUS TORMENT Those in the “lake of fire” do not have life. Their names are not written in any “book of life.” And life is life, whether spent in pleasure or in suffering pain. Accordingly, there is no consciousness or feeling of pain or suffering in the “lake of fire,” because there is no life there at all. Why, then, does the Bible speak of the Devil, the “wild beast” and the “false prophet” as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in this “lake”?—Rev. 20:10. It is because they are under the torment of restraint. When Jesus was on earth, the demons entreated him not to order them to go away into the “abyss.” (Luke 8:31) In a parallel account of the same incident, the demons asked Jesus: “Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” (Matt. 8:29) This being put into the “abyss” will be a “torment” because it will be a restraint. Satan and his demons are, therefore, to suffer the “torment” of restraint by being hurled into the “abyss” just prior to the thousand-year reign of Christ. They will be restrained from all activity during that thousand years. Then they will be loosed after the thousand years end. (Rev. 20:7; compare Revelation 11:7; 17:8.) After the final attack on God’s sovereignty, the Devil and his demons are hurled into the “lake of fire,” where they suffer the “torment” of everlasting restraint, without letup, in the “second death.” They are completely annihilated, never to appear again. Moreover, all that they accomplished, all their works, will be erased from the universe.—1 John 3:8. The truth that this being put into the “lake of fire” does not mean conscious pain of torment is shown in that the “wild beast” and the “false prophet,” both symbolic of systems or organizations, are spoken of as being “tormented day and night.” But systems or organizations cannot suffer pain. The “lake of fire” annihilates, destroys them. They are restrained from operating, forever. Never will such wicked organizations rise up to dominate or disturb mankind. Also, death and Hades, mankind’s common grave, are done away with in the “lake of fire,” in that Adamic death will have been completely wiped out and Hades will have been emptied and will receive no more such dead. (Rev. 20:14) Certainly these two inanimate things can feel or experience no conscious suffering, but they can be restrained, put out of the way, forever. ITS PURPOSE The “lake of fire,” which means, or symbolizes, the “second death,” also ‘burns with sulphur.’ (Rev. 21:8) Sulphur ignites at a low temperature and burns quickly, thus tending to consume things that would not otherwise burn so readily. Sulphur was anciently used in fumigation. Thus the “lake that burns with fire and sulphur” would well represent a complete, everlasting destruction universally of everything and everyone that has “contaminated” it, carrying on filthy practices, challenging God’s sovereignty and bringing reproach upon his name. The “lake of fire” or “second death,” though always possible for God to use on the willfully disobedient, will not hold any threat to those who have been proved everlastingly loyal through the test of Satan’s loosing after the end of the thousand years of Christ’s reign. The faithful survivors of that test will have God’s guarantee of protection and the sustaining of their lives forever.—Rom. 8:21. Thus the “lake of fire” is an important factor in God’s purposes. It is not something contrary to the personality of Jehovah God, who never conceived nor would ever countenance the eternal conscious torment of anyone. (Jer. 19:5; 32:35) It is in harmony with his personality of justice and loving-kindness, however, for God to clear out wicked troublemakers forever. For it is essential that justice be carried out in the universe for the sake of peace and order in behalf of those who want to do what is right.—Ps. 145:20. Jehovah is not a ruler who is going to let crime and criminals continue to run rampant, taking away all peace and joy of living from law-abiding people. Neither is God harsh, so that there is no help for those who want to change their ways. (1 Tim. 2:3, 4) He allows full and fair opportunity for all. Those who go into the “lake of fire,” which is the “second death,” actually choose everlasting death rather than life, of their own free will and accord, because they selfishly violate the laws of the Universal Sovereign. He rightly requires respect and exclusive devotion. This cleaning out of such hardened rebels is the only way the universe can have peace. May all who want life learn about Jehovah’s ways so as to have their names written in the “book of life” for everlasting happiness.
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#1. To: richard9151 (#0)
(Edited)
That is absolutely no different than someone saying that people choose to go to hell. Granted, your ideas are a little more palatable to the average person. But it is still not true. Tell me how God can be "all in all" ... 1 Co 15:28 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. ... when a vast majority of that "all" is destroyed? It can't happen. All means all, except to theologians. BTW, that single scripture rips to shreds another favorite churchianity doctrine that says Christ will rule forever. How many have seen that, and not just skipped over it? Isaiah 26: 9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Is that a prophecy? Has it ever happened in the past? Who are those people that will learn roghteousness via judgement? "Individuals that go into the “second death” merit it because of their own deliberate choice of sin and enmity toward God." Merit it? Deliberate choice? Sorry, but no one has ever made a deliberate choice to sin. Name 1 person except Christ that has never sinned. Just one. We are sinning machines. We are made that way. Romans 8 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, This scripture explicitely states that God is in charge, and He made us that way. Period. Enmity towards God? Whose kindness leads us to repentence? Can you name 1 other way someone can repent? Apart from that, how many seeks after God? Scripture says no one, not one. So, how is this a choice that someone can make?
A little cynical, aren't you? According to you, there is no difference, for example, between you and Stalin. Or you and the nearest mass murderer. Or you and Hitler. Or you and George Bush -- either one. Paul who originally was Saul, of course, and who was a Phar., said himself that he was a sinner, but he still had a heavenly hope. To be one of the 144,000. So to take this a step further, you are also saying that Paul is the same as Stalin, Hitler, George Bush, and that nearest mass murderer. Right? You can see no distinction between them, at all. Amazing.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
You ever hear "there but for the grace of God go I"? If I had been born and lived under the same circumstances as Hitler, Stalin, Gacy, Bundy, or anyone else, I'd have done the same things. So would you. You are patting yourself on the back for your own righteousness. You are boasting. You think that just because you aren't as bad as another more infamous person, that makes it all OK? That is a dangerous position to be in. So, can you answer the question?
Are you one of them?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
But don't feel bad. I have done the same things. Some of hte things I have said about Bush and quite a few others have been less than kind. But I don't hate them, I hate what they are doing. That does not mean that if they decide to start the pick-ups, what I will go willingly. Someone won't go home that day.
Edited to delete post. I thought I was replying to Richard
No, I would not. Absolutely not. And neither would most people. Which is why there are so few mass murderers, and so few who seize power. Most turn away, and rightfully so. I already did. You can not draw a distinction between evil and those who willingly choose evil and sinners. I really do not understand those who say that Hitler will enjoy everlasting life along side other lawless men such as Stalin. Where is the Perfect Justice in that?! And, I might add, where it the everlasting peace in such an arrangement?
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Why would I be one of them? Paul talked in the Bible about his hope for the early resurrection, meaning that he had hopes of being in the select group (and also meaning that he knew he would die). What would put me in the company of such?! Silly question, that.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Not really.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Did I ever say that there was no judgement? No I didnt. Everyone gets tried by fire. No one escapes. His church is being judged right now. 1 Peter 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? The others will be judged later. But you want to talk about perfect justice? What about those that never even had a chance to hear. You would have them destroyed for something they cannot be held responsible for.
No, Most aren't born psychopaths. Psychopaths do not just turn away. If you were born like that, and lived their screwed up lives, you would do the same kinds of things. You are not a "special case".
Why would you even write that? You specifically used people like Bundy as an example. What does that have to do with the innocent? Sinners, yes, but who never had a chance to grow up or to learn the Truth? There is a 1000 year period, with Jesus Christ ruling as king, when everyone will be judged. Everyone, that is, that is not judged rapidly, and thrown into the lake of fire. Those who prove themselves will have earned everlasting life. The three posts spell out pretty well how we understand the process to work. And no one said anything about only this group or that group being saved. BUT, and this is a VERY BIG BUT, if Judgment Day is at hand, then those who have lived during this time, and who did not heed His Call, will not be among those living during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ as king on the earth. Just as happened the last time that Almighty God judged the earth, and wiped it out except for Noah and family. As it says in the Bible; all shall be judged according to their works.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Show me anywhere that I claimed to be. I make mistakes, and have asked for correction here in the 4um as well as elsewhere. But, it has to be shown how I am in error first, then I will repent and change. I just did, after a year and a half of Bible study with a Jehovah's Witness, where he showed me how little I understood. I have been around others who understood as much or more than I do, but I have NEVER been around a group of people who understand more than I do, until now. Care to guess who that group of people is, or, do you already know? Do you know what stops most people from doing a good, through Bible study? Fear, fear that they may be faced with changes in their comfortable lives. For such people I hold not much hope, because the Truth is for everyone except those who can not handle it. Who can not change. Who fear change. Who fear repentance, and such as that have no hope for everlasting life. Such would rather celebrate Christmas than celebrate Almighty God and His Wonders and Promises.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
You are full of shit.
Thank you for your kind words and thoughfull comments. You have added immesureably to the discussion.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Come on. If you want to discuss this, like I want to, then do kindly quit trying to put words in my mouth (or fingers). I am willing to discuss this, but I will not let you lead me around by the nose. You linked me to Hitler, Stalin, and serial killers. OK, the difference is in degree, not in kind, so I have no problem with you doing that. But YOU are the one linking them to those that have never heard. You know as well as I do that the vast majority of common everyday people that have ever lived have not a clue who Christ is. By your standards of justice, they will be destroyed. Therefore making scripture out to be lies. It might be true that God will be all in all, but all does not mean all, right? "Everyone, that is, that is not judged rapidly, and thrown into the lake of fire." Rapidly? Also, you know that the lake is not "hell". So let me ask you this: What does fire symbolize? What is its symbolic purpose? "Those who prove themselves will have earned everlasting life." Proved it? Earned it? really? Book, chapter and verse please? I can think of any number of scriptures that contradict what you said. This is becoming unmanagable here. You keep posting things, but you dont respond to the scripture I posted. These scriptures contradict what you are saying, which is probably why you are ignoring them. If so, thats OK, just so you know that is what you are doing. I can't force anyone to read them. "BUT, and this is a VERY BIG BUT, if Judgment Day is at hand, then those who have lived during this time, and who did not heed His Call, will not be among those living during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ as king on the earth. ' That is mostly right. YOu are forgetting about an entire class of people. There are the called, and the chosen. Which class reigns? What do they reign over and what is the purpose of reigning? Does the JW bible have entire chapters and verses cut out of it? If you study as much as you say you do, and I personally believe you, how can you write these things? You study it a lot more than I do. You are right to say that scriptures do not contradict, but you contradict them.
You are so much better than Hitler and Stalin. You arent better. You break one law, you are guilty of all. "Care to guess who that group of people is, or, do you already know? " No, who are they? :) "Do you know what stops most people from doing a good, through Bible study? Fear, fear that they may be faced with changes in their comfortable lives." Book, chapter and verse, please? What does scripture say? "For such people I hold not much hope, because the Truth is for everyone except those who can not handle it. Who can not change. Who fear change. Who fear repentance, and such as that have no hope for everlasting life. " Cannot handle it? Really? I dont know about you, but with me, truth was not handed over on a silver platter. You wouldn't believe me if I told you the things I checked out. Now, what scripture says is that God has blinded them to the truth. It's His "fault". John 12 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. If you want to blame someone, blame God.
I much prefer the burning ring of fire. You know, the one Johnny Cash sang about.
Freepers: hearts full of hate and cowardice, and skulls full, to quote a favorite saying of one of their favorite cowards, of mush.
Wall of Voodoo did an amazing cover of Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire". Check it out sometime.
Neither is God harsh, so that there is no help for those who want to change their ways. (1 Tim. 2:3, 4) He allows full and fair opportunity for all. Those who go into the “lake of fire,” which is the “second death,” actually choose everlasting death rather than life, of their own free will and accord
#2. To: PSUSA (#1)
So, how is this a choice that someone can make?
#3. To: richard9151 (#2)
#4. To: richard9151 (#2)
Paul who originally was Saul, of course, and who was a Phar., said himself that he was a sinner, but he still had a heavenly hope. To be one of the 144,000.
#5. To: All (#3)
#6. To: Rotara (#4)
(Edited)
#7. To: PSUSA (#3)
So would you.
#8. To: Rotara (#4)
Are you one of them?
#9. To: richard9151 (#8)
Silly question, that.
#10. To: richard9151 (#7)
#11. To: richard9151 (#7)
No, I would not. Absolutely not. And neither would most people. Which is why there are so few mass murderers, and so few who seize power. Most turn away, and rightfully so.
#12. To: PSUSA (#10)
What about those that never even had a chance to hear.
#13. To: PSUSA (#11)
"special case".
#14. To: richard9151 (#0)
In examining these texts we readily see that the “lake of fire” is not a literal pool of flame.
#15. To: Old Friend (#14)
You are full of shit.
#16. To: richard9151 (#12)
Why would you even write that? You specifically used people like Bundy as an example. What does that have to do with the innocent? Sinners, yes, but who never had a chance to grow up or to learn the Truth?
#17. To: richard9151 (#13)
(Edited)
"special case". Show me anywhere that I claimed to be.
#18. To: richard9151 (#0)
#19. To: Turtle (#18)
I much prefer the burning ring of fire. You know, the one Johnny Cash sang about.
 | Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#20. To: PSUSA (#16)
It ... is ... not ... my ... standards ... of ... justice. Even the Christ Jesus does not know who will be thrown into the lake of fire, and who will not be. He will judge as He is instructed to judge, so how could I make any decision? You are trying to make wide sweeping generalzations about subjects that really are none of our concerns. Here is the point; no one knows who will be offered an opportunity for eternal life, and who will not be. Our only responsibility is to see to it that we accept our responsiblities and are therefore offered that promise. "Everyone, that is, that is not judged rapidly, and thrown into the lake of fire." Remember, though, that such statements refer to the world in general that is alienated from God, not to individuals. Christians do not presume to prejudge how any individual will respond to the preaching work. They do not have a basis for describing any individuals as goats. It is not for us to say what the outcome will be when Jesus comes to separate “the sheep” from “the goats.” (Matthew 25:31-46) That verse refers to a pretty rapid development. What does fire symbolize? This was covered pretty throughly in at least one of the three posts I put up on this subject. It is noted in Revelation that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, so we know that it is symbolic, of the second death, because rather obviously, death and hell can not be consumed in the fire. That symbolism means the end of death and the end of the common grave of mankind. "Those who prove themselves will have earned everlasting life." That refers to those after the 1000 year reign of the Christ Jesus, when Satan and his demons will be let loose for a short time once again to test those who have lived for that 1000 years on earth. Those who pass the test will have earned everlasting life. It has nothing to do with today, because we can not earn such in our present state. We depend upon the undeserved kindness of God for redemption. These scriptures contradict what you are saying, which is probably why you are ignoring them. I try not to ignore. I will respond if I think it is relavent. But we seem to be talking about three different things here. YOu are forgetting about an entire class of people. There are the called, and the chosen. Which class reigns? What do they reign over and what is the purpose of reigning? Who knows? It is not relavant to us. Are you one of the chosen? I am not. My understanding is that the vast majority of the chosen are martyers killed preaching the good news of the Christ Jesus. The Apostle Paul was one of the first, and when he was in prison, he mentioned that he hoped for that 'earlier resurrection'. Why is that important? That is such a small percentage of people that it matters only to them and to Almighty God.
By your standards of justice, they will be destroyed.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#21. To: PSUSA (#17)
I certainly hope so. I have made decisions in my life that turned me away from evil, rather than towards it. Just how much time do you figure Stalin, or Hitler or Mao, spent worrying about what Almighty God thought of their actions? Or Gacy or Bundy. "Do you know what stops most people from doing a good, through Bible study? Fear, fear that they may be faced with changes in their comfortable lives." I will address this separately, in a second answer to this in this thread. Cannot handle it? Really? I dont know about you, but with me, truth was not handed over on a silver platter. You wouldn't believe me if I told you the things I checked out. I was not referring to you, and yes, I would believe you. It took a year and a half of weekly (and more) Bible study for the info to get through to me. I had also checked out a LOT and done more research than I cared to remember, always searching. So yes, I believe you having been through it as well. If you want to blame someone, blame God. Nope. Not going there. I have no right to blame or judge Almighty God; that is His department, and I want nothing to do with that responsiblity. AT ALL. It is said in the Bible that He reads the hearts, and the kidneys and makes His decision on what He reads. I am not capable of that, and never will be. His department and responsiblity, thanks by to Him.
You are so much better than Hitler and Stalin.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#22. To: PSUSA (#17)
People—Why They Act the Way They Do Is it their genes? Their environment? Freedom of choice? or Do we really know? “IT’S my genes!” one person says in defense of his wrongdoing. It is true that heredity, or the genes, influence people’s conduct. The Bible concurs in this: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”—Rom. 5:12. “It’s my environment!” another wrongdoer pleads. That too is a factor. “He that is walking with wise persons,” the Bible says, “will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.” Also, “Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.”—Prov. 13:20; 1 Cor. 15:33. Both inherited traits and environmental influences are powerful factors in shaping the individual. Nevertheless, responsibility for his actions cannot be shifted to genes or environment. Why not? Because people are free moral agents. Hence, “each of us will render an account for himself to God.” Man was not made a robot, but he has a will of his own, and bears responsibility for its use.— Rom. 14:12. Man has capacities for gaining knowledge and wisdom, for love, and a sense of justice. He has the power to do purposeful work, to give meaning to his life. But in fallen man these potentials are not developed to the full, nor are they properly balanced one with the other. Consequently, his needs are not met and he acts imperfectly—like the car the designed needs of which are unfulfilled. Just as a small pebble in our shoe or a speck of dust in our eye gets our attention, so it is the bad that people do that makes the headlines. The rest of the body may be fine, and people may be doing much good, but it is the disturbance that gets the attention. So it is with the failures in view that the question is asked, Why do people act the way they do? What makes them tick? The failures may be small. A need may be unfulfilled, a wish denied, a purpose frustrated, and in a bad mood the person snaps at others. Many times it is more serious. Discrimination may deny a person acceptance or recognition or work; frustration sets in; hostility then escalates into anger and erupts in violence. Greed for money or possessions drives many to run roughshod over others. “Me firsters,” obsessed by their own desires, rob or rape or kill to satisfy their lusts. Ambitious men and organizations and nations launch inquisitions and wars, commit horrendous atrocities, ruin the earth with poisonous chemicals and spread famine and pestilence and death to millions. Why? They are no longer in God’s likeness, no longer guided by his attributes. The gulf that separates men from animals narrows and, in extreme cases, makes men like “unreasoning brute beasts which are born to be caught and killed.” (2 Pet. 2:12, Phillips) They pervert the divine attributes. Knowledge is used evilly to increase power that corrupts and destroys. Wisdom deteriorates into worldly folly. Justice becomes harsh, cruel. Love turns inward upon self. Qualities with great potential for good are distorted to empower men to commit evils far greater than any of those possible by “unreasoning brute beasts.” People are surrounded by violence—in cities, in books, plays and movies, in their streets, in their living rooms. Television floods minds from infancy on with mayhem and murder. One study estimates that by age 14 the average American child has been exposed to 11,000 television murders. A Congressional subcommittee investigated violence in the schools and came up with this statement of historic import: “More children were killed in the schools, often in gun fights with other pupils, between 1970 and 1973, than soldiers in combat in Vietnam.” Evolutionary scientists assure us that all of this is natural. Aggression is innate, they say, handed down to us by animal ancestors. Not true, other scientists contend. Anthropologist Ashley Montagu writes as follows: “There are many societies that, far from engaging in aggressive behavior, are remarkably nonviolent and cooperative. Examples are the Tasaday of Mindanao, the Todas of southern India, the Tahitians, the Hadza of Tanzania, the Ifaluk of the Pacific, the Yamis of the Western Pacific, the Lapps, the Arapesh and the Fore of New Guinea. . . . “When anthropologists study such nonaggressive societies, we observe that it is principally through their child-rearing practices that they produce cooperative, nonviolent personalities. Great affection is lavished on children. From infancy on, small children are scarcely ever out of bodily contact with someone who is either cuddling or carrying them. . . . “Aggression and nonaggression are each learned ways of behavior. Every society provides models for its preferred forms of behavior—models that are continually reinforcing the behavior of the individual. America sets before the child the most aggressive kinds of models, and then we wonder why we have such high rates of violent crime.” Dr. John Lind urges a return to the rocking of babies and the singing of lullabies to them, because this “hastens the development of the brain.” The magazine Psychology Today, December 1979, said that “during formative periods of brain growth, certain kinds of sensory deprivation—such as a lack of touching and rocking by the mother—result in incomplete or damaged development of the neuronal systems that control affection.” “Since the same systems influence brain centers associated with violence,” the article continued, “the deprived infant may have difficulty controlling violent impulses as an adult.” Dr. Richard Restak in his book The Brain: the Last Frontier (1979) makes these points: Experiments have “provided conclusive evidence that the limbic [marginal] system is the area of the brain most concerned with emotion,” and to destroy or stimulate this area changes behavior. Electrical stimulation can cause either joy or rage. “The immature brain is dependent on sensory stimulation for normal growth,” and “when an infant is rocked or cuddled, impulses are directed to the cerebellum that stimulate its development.” This is important, for the cerebellum controls movement and if it is deprived of these pleasurable impulses sufficient nerve synapses do not form, and development is abnormal. The result may be an impulsive, uncontrolled, violent personality. The above two paragraphs show that not only genes and environments and models of behavior that society puts before us affect the way we act, but also the treatment we receive as helpless babies affects our brain development, our emotional states and resultant actions. But still another factor is at work—one whose existence many people will not even acknowledge. The Wall Street Journal, however, does. In an editorial October 28, 1977, on “The Terrorist Impulse,” it wonders about the mindless rage and violence. The tendency is to blame society, but the editorial wonders about “deep and irrational impulses” in man for whom “evil has its own appeal.” Its concluding sentence: “You are less close to the truth if you blame society than you are if you blame Satan.” The Bible calls Satan “the god of this system of things,” identifies “wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places” as the real enemies, and declares woe for the earth “because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” (2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 6:12; Rev. 12:12) Satan was at the root of the trouble in Eden when he tempted Eve into abandoning God’s ‘image and likeness.’ He is still a mighty force today in causing people to act in mindless, raging violence. Many known factors explain why people act the way they do. Genetics, environment, freedom of choice, unfulfilled needs—all of these influence conduct. Brain development during infancy plays an important role. However, man’s understanding of the brain is in its infancy. It is frequently called the most mysterious thing in our mysterious universe. Then there is also the Satanic influence. So do we really know why people act the way they do? We know some details; many details we do not know. But we do know the basic reason: None of us perfectly reflect ‘the image and likeness of God.’
"Do you know what stops most people from doing a good, through Bible study? Fear, fear that they may be faced with changes in their comfortable lives."
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#23. To: richard9151 (#20)
You're right. It's getting out of hand, with all of the different topics in one thread. So, it's your thread. Pick a topic or maybe start another one if you want to continue, and lets try and stay on that topic. Otherwise 1 post will turn into a book. This is a weakness of forums that I don't like.
But we seem to be talking about three different things here.
#24. To: richard9151 (#21)
What Bible are you referring to? I was just passing through and that caught my eye.....another pretty good indication of where JW comes from: quick search: A History of Medicine - Google Books Result by Plinio Prioreschi - 1995 - Medicine ... and cannot be simply eliminated by assuming a false textual reading."54 Here is a capsule of Talmudic physiology: The kidneys prompt, the heart discerns ... books.google.com/books?isbn=1888456035... The Role of the Kidney as a Religious, Cultural and Sexual Symbol kidneys. In the Judaic tradition of the Talmud we read,. ‘There are two kidneys in the man, ... heart and kidneys. The examination alone of these organs ... content.karger.com/Produk...be=227786&ArtikelNr=63747 The Kidneys, and other Internal Organs | sixthirteen.org O God of Hosts, O Just Judge, who tests the kidneys and the heart. .... Boyarin, Daniel, Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture. University of ... sixthirteen.org/blog/2002...ys_and_other_internal.php The history of nephrology in the Talmudic corpus. [Am J Nephrol ... 1: Am J Nephrol. 2002 Jul;22(2-3):119-29. Click here to read ... The Talmudic corpus considers the kidneys to be the origin of secret counsels--"the kidneys ... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097728 The Kidneys in the Bible: What Happened? -- Eknoyan 16 (12): 3464 ... This use of the heart and kidneys in parallel seems to have its roots in Egypt ..... kidneys give advice"—Some thoughts on nephrology in the Talmud and the ... jasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/16/12/3464
It is said in the Bible that He reads the hearts, and the kidneys and makes His decision on what He reads.
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#25. To: PSUSA (#23)
Did you read the reply to you by me about people? That is the Jehovah's Witness position, and it deals with, simply, no one knows how Jehovah God is going to judge each individual. The Bible says that Jesus Christ will separate the sheep from the goats, so we know that not everyone is going to be offered everlasting life. But it also deals with the requirement that people raise their children correctly; i.e., the sins of the father are visited even unto the 4th generation. And personal responsibility. In essense, our requirement is obdeiance to Almighty God, and we do not have the right to make our own decisions...... if we wish to enjoy His Promises. If we do not care about His Promises, it does not matter, of course.
Pick a topic
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#26. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#24)
Simply amazing the flights of fancy you get into. The “Kidneys” and the “Heart” in the Scriptures THE literal kidneys represent a region of the body lower than the fleshly heart. According to one of the definitions, the kidneys are the seat of human feelings, affections and passions. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary links the kidneys with the person’s “temperament.” At Revelation 2:23 the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ says: “I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (See also Jeremiah 11:20, footnote, NW, Reference Bible.) The kidneys and the heart are different organs of the body and are in different locations. The physical kidneys are lower down in the body than the physical heart. These also have different reactions to different stimuli. These reactions would signify something. Thus such reactions could be read or observed as denoting different qualities that indicate what sort of person the searched individual is. Is one’s literal heart moved to beat faster or, as it were, to grow cold? Are his kidneys stimulated to function at an unusual time and in an odd manner? The Searcher of the hearts and kidneys is able to interpret such reactions and more thoroughly understand the person, as to what sort of kidney he is. At Psalm 16:6-8 the composer David writes: “The measuring lines themselves have fallen for me in pleasant places. Really, my own possession has proved agreeable to me. I shall bless Jehovah, who has given me advice. Really, during the night my kidneys have corrected me. I have placed Jehovah in front of me constantly. Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be made to totter.” How, in fact, did David’s kidneys correct him during the nights when he would be awake? Well, if David had had any misgivings as to Jehovah’s attitude toward him, what sort of person he really was, his figurative kidneys would give him a correct assessment of Jehovah’s purpose toward him. That is why David went on to say: “For you will not leave my soul in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.”—Psalm 16:10. Of course, David will have a resurrection from the grave, or Sheol, in Jehovah’s due time; but, under inspiration on the day of Pentecost of 33 C.E., 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter applied Psalm 16:10 to Jesus Christ, Peter saying at Acts 2:25-28: “For David says respecting him, ‘I had Jehovah constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. You have made life’s ways known to me, you will fill me with good cheer with your face.’” The cheerful heart enlivened the psalmist David, and likewise the cheerful heart made the earthly life of David’s great antitype, Jesus Christ, active. The natural heart also affects the body, just as Proverbs 14:30 says: “A calm heart is the life of the fleshly organism.” The heart of the Greater David, Jesus Christ, could remain calm with a steady heartbeat and blood flow even under provocative circumstances, yes, under persecution and physical mistreatment, up until the time of his impalement. It was only then that he died of a broken heart.—Psalm 69:20. At Hebrews 4:12 it is stated that “the word of God . . . is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” This signifies that “the heart” is the thing that induces and motivates the thoughts and intentions, which are discerned by “the word of God.” [Footnotes] Regarding “kidney,” see also The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary; The Concise Oxford Dictionary; The Random House Dictionary of the English Language (Unabridged); The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language; Webster’s New World Dictionary of the American Language.
I was just passing through and that caught my eye.....another pretty good indication of where JW comes from:
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#27. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#24)
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod. ] Luk 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. On the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven,Matthew 13, Luke 13 [Jesus planted the good seed in the field; the field is the world; the good seed is the wheat/mustard seed; the bad seed [or LEAVEN] was planted by the wicked one, the Devil]: Luk 13:21 It [Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven] is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: ] 1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth. Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. The Zionist Jew, According to the Jewish Encyclopedia. The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the PHARISEES.... www.sweetliberty.org/zionism.htm Cornwallis to George Washington: A holy war will now begin against America...HER CHURCHES WILL BE USED TO TEACH THE JEWS' RELIGION [read "LEAVEN"]....and she will be working for divine government...the BRITISH EMPIRE [Judeo-"British-Israel"]...under the all seeing eye of [Judeo] Freemasonry [paraphrased]. [see: The Scepter of Judah http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=75182 ] http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/greatesthoax.htm ".... "Jonathan Williams recorded in his LEGIONS OF SATAN, 1781, that Cornwallis revealed to Washington that "a holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will be supposedly the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be loyal subjects to the Crown." Cornwallis went on to explain what would seem to be a self contradiction: "Your churches will be used to teach the Jew's religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire. All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry." And indeed George Washington himself was a Mason, and he gave back through a false religion what he had won with his army. "Cornwallis well knew that his military defeat was only the beginning of world catastrophe that would be universal and that unrest would continue until mind control could be accomplished through a false religion. What he predicted has come to pass. A brief sketch of American religious history and we have seen Masonry infused into every church in America With their veiled Phallic religion. "Darby and the Plymouth Brethren brought a Jewish Christianity to America. Masons Rutherford and Russell started Jehovah Witnesses' Judaism which is now worldwide with their message of the divine kingdom. Mason Joseph Smith started Mormon Judaism with its Jewish teaching of millennialism. "At the turn of the twentieth century there appeared the Scofield Bible with a Jewish interpretation of the prophecies. With wide use of this "helpful" aid all the American churches have silently become synagogues. We now have Baptist Jews, Methodist Jews, Church of God Jews, apostate Catholic Jews, and many Protestant Jews throughout America. We are aliens in our own country because of false religion. All are praying for divine deliverance into that "Divine Government" which Cornwallis knew to be the British Empire. "A false religion has been used to deceive us into allegiance to our enemies of Yorktown and Bunker Hill. No! Not a gun has been fired but the invisible and malignant process of conquering America with the Jew's religion has gone on unabated. The Union Jack has been planted in our hearts with religious deception. All has happened "legally," "constitutionally," "freely" and completely within our most sacred trust -- our churches. Religious deception is painless innoculation against truth. It cannot be removed from the conscience with surgery, yet it is the motivator of our actions and directly controls our lives. Once man gives over to false religion, he is no longer rational because he originates no thought. His life is controlled by whomever controls his religion. "The veil of false religion is the sword of Damocles and its power to control humanity defies even the imagination of tyrants who use it." "This is not to say that George Washington was a traitor willingly, or knowingly. He was beguiled into a Satanic religious order that insidiously controls men's minds. So have American statesmen and military leaders down through the years given aid and allegiance to the enemies of the United States because they did not have knowledge of the invisible subterfuge that stalks this land. My eyes were opened the day my colleague from Ohio handed me Wagner's FREEMASONRY AN INTERPRETATION. If every American would read it, they would no longer ask why and how it has happened." Given by Senator Joseph McCarthy, six months before his mouth was closed forever. End of quote from GEORGE WASHINGTON'S SURRENDER. We have a final note for optimism. We sincerely believe that America can and will survive if her people are willing to come face to face with the propagandists who are trying to beguile us into World Government with a misuse of Bible prophecy. It is time to touch the untouchables and shake their ivory towers of constitutionally protected religion and lay open for all to see what is being done to us in the name of Christ. ......." http://www.sweetliberty.org/issu...ax/unionjack_epilogue.htm http://www.sweetliberty.org/pers...e/jewishpersecution18.htm http://www.sweetliberty.org/pers...e/jewishpersecution19.htm
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#28. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#27)
Leaven ... of the Pharisees and the Sadducees .... ummmm. Would that be like, you know, celebrating Xmas, the birth of Tammuz the son of god (Nimrod).... you know, kind of like that? Maybe? Perhaps? Ummmmm? Or maybe Easter, you know, the goddess of fertility and sexual excess ... you know, kind of like that? Maybe? Perhaps? Ummmmm? Or does it mean to baptize babies .... you know, kind of like that? Maybe? Perhaps? Ummmmm? Or what other part of the apostasy of Christendom, like the trinity, that came through the Roman church .... you know, kind of like that? Maybe? Perhaps? Ummmmm? Or maybe it means turning Jesus Christ into God Almighty, regardless of what the Bible says .... you know, kind of like that? Maybe? Perhaps? Ummmmm? Am I missing anything here? I am quite sure I could write a book here, so just let me know if you want more.
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#29. To: Rotara (#9)
I guess maybe I finally understand. You believed, for whatever reason, me being brand new to the Witnesses, that I might, somehow, believe that I was a part of that select group of 144,000. That really is silly, you know. Jehovah began gathering those from the time that Jesus Christ walked the earth. Paul being one of the first. My understanding, incomplete as it may be, is that the majority of such were martyred preaching the good news of the Christ Jesus. But even if I, or any one else, believed, for whatever reason that they were a part of or were to become a part of that select group.... what does that have to do with us? It is, frankly, none of our business. It is between that individual and Jehovah God. If they are misleading people, then they will pay the price. And if it is true, then it is still something that is between them and Almighty God. And that is exactly how the Witnesses approach the question. I understand that there is supposed to be a remanant of that group still on the earth. I do not know any. I do not need to know any. I am interested only in my own responsibilities; nothing else. OK?
Not really.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
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