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Title: Roman Catholic Church, History of … or, why people believe what they believe.
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Published: Oct 31, 2008
Author: Richard -- various
Post Date: 2008-10-31 16:31:34 by richard9151
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Views: 381
Comments: 22
Roman Catholic Church, History of … or, why people believe what they believe. (There is another post in the religion thread that is essential to understanding this information; Simon Peter versus Simon the Sorcerer) To begin with, let me be frank; nothing that has come from the Roman Catholic church is Biblical. Period. To understand this, go here; http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/ This is a free online book titled, Two Babylons, and it accurately describes the source of the rituals and beliefs of the Roman Catholic church. It is worth reading, if you wish to understand. Secondly, I have had discussions, recently, in threads in the 4um from people who accused me of making things up; namely, the Roman Catholic church banned the reading of the Bible by people. In fact, one went so far as to claim that the reason that the Bible was so widely distributed was because the Roman Catholic church is the one who distributed the Bible! Hogwash and Balderdash! The Roman Catholic Church hates the Bible, and, people who dare to read the Bible because the Bible reveals all of the lies of the Roman Catholic church! Go here, please; http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III Pope Innocent III stated in 1199: ... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D. The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; ITEM #3 THE COUNCIL OF TARRAGONA - 1234 A.D. The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon, ruled that: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned ITEM #4 JOHN WYCLIFFE - MORNING STAR OF THE REFORMATION John Wycliffe was the very first to translate the entire Bible into English, which he completed in 1382. Wycliffe translated from the Latin Vulgate. One copy of an original manuscript is in the Bodlein Library in Oxford, England. Wycliffe's Bibles were painstakingly reproduced by hand by copyists. In 1408 the third synod of Oxford, England, banned unauthorized English translations of the Bible ITEM #5 THE BIBLE IN ENGLISH IS PRINTED William Tyndale completed a translation of the New Testament from the Greek in 1525, which church authorities in England tried their best to confiscate and burn. After issuing a revised edition in 1535, he was arrested, spent over a year in jail, and was then strangled and burned at the stake near Brussels in October 6th, 1536 ITEM #6 THE BIBLE PROHIBITED BY THE INDEX LIBRORUM PROHIBITORUM Pope Pius IV had a list of the forbidden books compiled and officially prohibited them in the Index of Trent (Index Librorum Prohibitorum) of 1559. This is an excerpt: Rule I All books which were condemned prior to 1515 by popes or ecumenical councils, and are not listed in this Index, are to stand condemned in the original fashion. Rule II Books of arch-heretics - those who after 1515 have invented or incited heresy or who have been or still are heads and leaders of heretics, such as Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Hubmaier, Schwenckfeld, and the like — whatever their name, title or argumentation — ITEM #7 POPE CLEMENT XI ON READING SCRIPTURE From UNIGENITUS, The Dogmatic Constitution issued by Pope Clement XI on Sept. 8, 1713: The following statements are condemned as being error: 79. It is useful and necessary at all times, in all places, and for every kind of person, to study and to know the spirit, the piety, and the mysteries of Sacred Scripture. 80. The reading of Sacred Scripture is for all. 81. The sacred obscurity of the Word of God is no reason for the laity to dispense themselves from reading it. 82. The Lord's Day ought to be sanctified by Christians with readings of pious works and above all of the Holy Scriptures. It is harmful for a Christian to wish to withdraw from this reading. 83. It is an illusion to persuade oneself that knowledge of the mysteries of religion should not be communicated to women by the reading of Sacred Scriptures. Not from the simplicity of women, but from the proud knowledge of men has arisen the abuse of the Scriptures and have heresies been born. 84. To snatch away from the hands of Christians the New Testament, or to hold it closed against them by taking away from them the means of understanding it, is to close for them the mouth of Christ. 85. To forbid Christians to read Sacred Scripture, especially the Gospels, is to forbid the use of light to the sons of light, and to cause them to suffer a kind of excommunication. Perhaps this is enough. You are welcome to visit the site quoted above, as there is a wealth of additional information. One thing that everyone needs to understand is that when the Roman Catholic church claims that someone, such as Luther, is a heretic, it is because they rejected at least a part of the unscriptural teachings of the Roman Catholic church. You can do your own research on this, but if you can not find anything, just let me know. Go here; http://cdelph.org/catholic.html The Roman Catholic Church -- Examined Historically and Biblically Pretty interesting, and confirms what I am going to post about the Roman Catholic church There are some Protestant denominations or groups that will try to establish a “Trail of Blood” that can be traced back through the centuries to the first century church and the apostles themselves. While these Protestants do not hold to apostolic succession in order to establish the authority of a “Pope” as an infallible leader, they still look to that connection to the early church in at least some small degree to establish the authority of their doctrines and practices. The problem with any of these attempts to trace a line of succession back to the apostles, whether it is Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant, is that they all are attempts to derive or support the authority of what they believe and teach from the wrong source, that of some real or perceived connection with the apostles, instead of deriving it from the Word of God, i.e., from the Bible. To understand this better, please read the post put up in the Religion thread; Simon Peter versus Simon the Sorcerer The above information is good, but it is not complete. Yes, the Great reformation in Christianity occurred because enough people began to understand how far from the Bible were the teachings of the Roman Catholic church; that has not changed today. But, what was the problem with the Great Reformation? Simply put, it did not go far enough in removing the evil influences brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholic church. Many of the truly un-Scriptural teachings of the Roman Catholic church remained. I have posted the following before; cdelph.org/catholic.html The Roman Catholic Church -- Examined Historically and Biblically cdelph.org/catholic.html#false FALSE DOCTRINES WHICH UNITE THE CHURCHES WITH ROME TIME OUT! Read the above sentence a couple of times and understand what it says!!; Unites the churches (of Christendom) with Rome. 2. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. Belief in a triune God - a God that is both one and three - is opposed to reason and the clear declaration of Scripture (Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:6). It was included in church teaching about 300 years after the death of Christ, and from Rome has found its way into the beliefs of nearly all communities of Christendom. The HOLY SPIRIT is the power of God, a divine energy by which He fills all space and creates and sustains all things: Luke 1:35, Psalm 51:12, 104:30, 139:7-12, Acts 17:27-28. The Holy Spirit is NOT A PERSON, but the "one spirit" of God used for special purposes: miracles, signs and wonders: Acts 2:1-4. MAN is a mortal creature whose consciousness utterly ceases at death, and, therefore, renewed life can come only through a bodily resurrection. Genesis 3:19, Ezekiel 18:4, Psalm 6:5, Ecclesiastes 3:18-19, 9:5-6, Isaiah 38:18-19, 1 Corinthians 15:13-21, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2. Let us examine a short list on non-Biblical teaching in Christendom; There is no Trinity. There is no immortal soul. There is no hell, and no hell fire and damnation. There is no Christmas. No one knows when Jesus Christ was born, and that is as it should be. http://www.xanga.com/Babylon_The_Great/554683845/item.html This is a belief that came directly from Babylon. There are no Christian holy days, as proscribed by the Roman Catholic church and the protestant churches as well, EXCEPT the one new day detailed in the Bible, which neither the Roman Catholic church nor the Protestant churches recognize. There is no Easter, except that Easter brought into Christendom by the Roman Catholic Church. Here is an interesting site especially for those who accept the dogma and tradition of the Roman Catholic church: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH 232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"53 Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity." The above is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church maintains that anyone professing the trinity is a Catholic. 233 Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,55 for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity. The above is why the Roman Catholic church, and those churches which adhere to her dogmas and traditions, reject the name of God, Jehovah, and this is why the Bible of today are printed with His chosen Name. 234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, … There are no mysteries in Christianity. Christ himself said that He said nothing in secret. All has been revealed, except for the end of times, which was an admitted mystery to the Christ Jesus as well. The dogma of the Holy Trinity 253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85 Yes, that is indeed a mystery, as in the mystery religion of Babylon. It has no place in Christianity, and no place in your heart. But that is your choice to make. Jehovah God does not force Himself on anyone, but then His Promises are only for those who celebrate His Holy Name, and take in accurate knowledge of Him. John 17:3; This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. Chose wisely, please.
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#1. To: richard9151 (#0)
You need to be using C.E. and B.C.E. for the dates. Just to be consistent. ;-)
Good point. I will try and remember that!
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
I'm not Roman, but this is not the case. It is absolutely not the case! The Trinity was taught by the immediate generation after the Disciples and Apostles themselves. They had to get it from somewhere and logic dictates they received it from the Apostles and Disciples. These Fathers were spread too far apart geographically and time wise to have independently "cooked" this up and created something all in such consistent agreement. Constantine and the Council of Nicaea did not create the Trinity. Two of the major reasons for the calling of the Council was the teaching of Arius that Christ was a created being and the controversy on when to hold Holy Pascha. That's a whole other issue apart from above. As a side note, please research the 1912 trial of Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Jehovah's Witness. He testified in open court he did not know Hebrew, Greek or Latin; took no coursework in it and did not have any theological or philosophical education. He admitted he based his interpretation of Sacred Scripture on his understanding of the Greek Alphabet, which by his own admission in court, was itself limited. The Jehovah's Witness still trace their interpretations of Sacred Scripture through him and I would be very cautious of this. St Dionysus of Rome; to Dionysius of Alexandria 1-3 262AD/CE "It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Lord in any way a handiwork. For if He came to be Son, then once He was not; but if, as He says Himself, He be IN the Father, and if, which you know the Divine Scripture says, Christ be Word and Wisdom and Power, and these attributes be powers of God, then he always existed. But if the Son came into being, there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when GOD was without them -- which is utterly absurd...." "Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine Unity; nor may we disparage the dignity and exceeding majesty of the Lord by calling Him a [created] work. Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, His Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the word is united to the God of the Universe. 'For,' says He, 'The Father and I are one' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in Me.' Thus both the Divine Trinity and the sacred proclamation of the monarchy will be preserved." St Theophilus of Antioch to Autolycus, 2 181 AD/CE "The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, His Word, and His Wisdom." "And what else is this voice, but the Word of God, which also is His Son, not as poets and writers of myths tell of the sons of gods begotten of intercourse, but, as truth recounts, the Word which always exists internally in the heart of God? for before anything was created, He had this Counsellor, being His own Mind and Thought; and when God wished to create what He had decided upon, He begot this uttered Word, the First-born of all creation, not emptying Himself of the Word, but having begotten the Word, and conversing always with His Word. "This is what the Holy Scriptures teach us, as do all the inspired men, one of whom, John, says, 'In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God' [John 1:1], showing that at first God was alone, and the Word was in Him. Then he says, 'And the Word was God; all things were made through Him, and without was made nothing' [1:3]. The Word, then, being God and being generated from God, is sent to any place at the will of the Father of the universe; and when He comes, having been sent by Him and being found in place, He is both heard and seen." Tertullian, Against Praxeas St Irenaeous of Lyons [Disciple of St Polycarp who was Disciple of St John the Theologian, one of the 12], Against Heresies 4:20:1 (late 2nd Century AD/CE) St Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians, Disciple of St John the Theologian, one of the 12 (First Century AD/CE) "There is one Physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and not born, who is God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first able to suffer and then unable to suffer, Jesus Christ our Lord." "You are like stones for a temple of the Father, prepared for the edifice of God the Father, hoisted to the heights by the crane of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, using for a rope the Holy Spirit. Your faith is what pulls you up, and love is the road which leads you to God." "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but Also of the Holy Spirit."
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
This has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. Nothing in this post comes from them; I was careful not to use that info here. The Trinity was taught by the immediate generation after the Disciples and Apostles themselves. No, it was not, except in Rome. And even if it were, that does not change a simple fact; there are no mysteries in the Bible. The Christ Jesus plainly said that he said nothing in secret, and He did not teach the Trinity. Also, if you study the Scriptures, instead of listening to men, there is no trinity in the Bible, and that includes the word trinity, which does not exist in the Bible. I cleaned myself of the trinity LONG before I met my first Jenovah's Witnesses. One of the prime reasons that I joined with them is that they understand the Bible, accept it, and know that the trinity is not a Scriptural teaching. Jesus Christ, who is called Wisdom and well as Seed and Messiah in the Old Testament, clearly states in Jeriamian that he was the first creation of Almighty God. I have posted all of this before. But none of this will make any difference to you unless you decide to do your own studies in the Bible instead of listening to men. And instead of quoting saints that were created by the Roman church.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
If Christ is created, then it would stand to reason he is not equal to the Father; he is not God. Who, or what, then is Christ? Is he a god (deity), demigod, something else?
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
If Jesus was God, does that mean that Jesus was merely talking to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?
Ahmadinejad in 2008! The Trinitarian would say Christ the Son is praying to God the Father. The Son is not the Father. One essence existing eternally, three separate persons. The Father and Son are both God.
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
The trinity is little more than stylized polytheism.
Ahmadinejad in 2008! Jesus Christ is a god, note the small g. He has immense powers, but only those that are granted to him by his Father. Who also happens to be our Father. Jesus Christ clearly states in many portions of the New Testament that the Father is greater than he is, and that he does the will of the Father. So your statement that he is not equal to the Father is correct, as Jesus clearly explained in numerous verses. The problem with this is that this does away with the trinity, which is not supportable in Scripture. Who, or what, then is Christ? The only begotton son of the Father. The Seed. The Word. The Messiah. The first creation of Almighty God who has been beside Him from the beginning of creation, and, as the son, created everything under direction from his Father. There is one thing that you must note about Scripture; when people tell you that: well, that is one interpetation, they are lying to you. No one interpets the Bible/Scripture. Scipture interpets itself. The problems that people have is that they do not want to accept the Word of God, and the responsiblities that go with that acceptance. I have no such problems. There are a couple of verses in the Religion thread that you should read, if you have not already done so. First, Make man in our image The other is; There is a verse in the Bible that tells us about ourselves Neither of these are long, and you may find some answers in them.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
The problem with such a statement is how do you support it in Scripture?
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
How do you reconcile this with the Holy Prophet Isaiah who wrote in chapter 43:10 where Jehovah explicitly states no gods were created before or after him? Furthermore, the Holy Prophet and Lawgiver Moses reiterates in Deuteronomy 32:39 where Jehovah again states there is no god besides him. How do you reconcile this?
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
I know how I reconcile it. I reject it all as hopelessly tangled Byzantine nonsense, self-contradictory and confusing and ultimately very frustrating. Do I think there's more than this reality? That strikes me as a very distinct possibility. Do I think that there's any one particular religion that has it all figured out? That strikes me as beyond improbable. As far as I'm concerned ALL religions suck, and the more they insist that THEY are the "one true belief" the more they suck. Some suck a little, some suck a lot, and some suck like a black hole on steroids, but ultimately they all suck. The proof of that is to be found in the behavior of their followers.
To begin with, let me be frank; nothing that has come from the Roman Catholic church is Biblical. Period.
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#2. To: X-15 (#1)
You need to be using C.E. and B.C.E. for the dates. Just to be consistent.
#3. To: richard9151 (#0)
2. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. Belief in a triune God - a God that is both one and three - is opposed to reason and the clear declaration of Scripture (Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:6). It was included in church teaching about 300 years after the death of Christ, and from Rome has found its way into the beliefs of nearly all communities of Christendom.
"Nor are they less to be blamed who hold that the Son is a handiwork, and think that the Lord was made, as if He were one of those things which were truly made. The divine statements bear witness to a generation suitable and becoming to Him, but no to any fashioning or making.
"He, then, being Spirit of God and Beginning and Wisdom and Power of the Most High, descended upon the prophets and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all the rest; for the prophets did not exist when the world came to be, but there was Wisdom, which was IN Him and which was OF God, and His Holy Word, who is eternally present with Him."
"And at the same time the mystery of the -oikonomia- is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree, not in substance, but in form, not in power, but in kind; of one substance, however, and one condition, and one power, because He is one God of whom these degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
"For with Him always are the Word and the Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, through whom and in whom He made all things freely and spontaneously; and to whom He spoke, saying: 'Let US make man in our image and likeness' [Gen 1:26]."
"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia, which is worthy of all felicitation, blessed as it is with greatness by the fullness of God the Father, predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God...."
#4. To: scooter (#3)
The Jehovah's Witness still trace their interpretations of Sacred Scripture through him and I would be very cautious of this.
#5. To: richard9151 (#4)
Jesus Christ, who is called Wisdom and well as Seed and Messiah in the Old Testament, clearly states in Jeriamian that he was the first creation of Almighty God.
#6. To: scooter (#5)
Everyone agrees that unanimity is hard to find.
#7. To: bluegrass (#6)
#8. To: scooter (#7)
Everyone agrees that unanimity is hard to find.
#9. To: scooter (#5)
If Christ is created, then it would stand to reason he is not equal to the Father; he is not God.
#10. To: scooter (#7)
The Father and Son are both God.
#11. To: richard9151 (#9)
Jesus Christ is a god, note the small g. He has immense powers, but only those that are granted to him by his Father. Who also happens to be our Father. Jesus Christ clearly states in many portions of the New Testament that the Father is greater than he is, and that he does the will of the Father. So your statement that he is not equal to the Father is correct, as Jesus clearly explained in numerous verses.
#12. To: scooter (#11)
How do you reconcile this?
 | Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#13. To: Elliott Jackalope (#12)
I can understand and accept that.
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
#14. To: scooter (#11)
Because you are stating it wrong; it is Gods, with a capital C. We are told in the Bible that there are thousands of gods, but only one Mighty God and one Almighty God. Even the Roman emporers were celebrated as gods because they made the laws, and judged the people. The word judge has the same root as god. I put up a study some time ago about the word theos, which explains most of the confusion about gods.
How do you reconcile this with the Holy Prophet Isaiah who wrote in chapter 43:10 where Jehovah explicitly states no gods were created before or after him?
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#15. To: richard9151 (#14)
The Holy Prophet Isaiah stated (New World Translation/NWT),Isa. 45:12,"I Jehovah have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I— my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded.” And again, 44:24 NWT, "This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?" And again, the Holy Prophet states (NWT), 48:13, "Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens. I am calling to them, that they may keep standing together." The claim is the god, Christ, was first created and then created everything under the direction of the Father. However, Jehovah explicitly speaks to his making and sustaining of creation alone. He does not mention the acts of creation occurring under the direction of a lesser or created god, in this case, the contention that the god Christ did the creating under the administration of Jehovah. This is henotheism, one main god with lesser gods. The Holy Prophet is clearly teaching monotheism. On the surface it would be tempting to assert "Who was with me?" is a reference to the created god Christ. However, the Holy Prophet does not speak to this and Jehovah answers his own question before he asks it. He says he was doing everything, stretching out the heavens and laying out the earth, alone, by himself. Also, if the assertion is made Christ the created god was with (me), then the Holy Prophet immediately contradicts himself a chapter later were Jehovah again asserts more clearly he alone has created the earth and man upon it and stretches out the heavens. The claim is the Greek theos, has multiple meanings, even bestowing the title god upon things less than divine (men). Yes, this does occur in Sacred Scripture. However, reading from the Greek, you'll find the Holy Prophet Isaiah clearly bestows the title of Jehovah to Lord, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord (ku/riov, HWHY- the divine name for GOD, Jehovah), and my servant whom I (Jehovah) have chosen: that ye may know and believe me (Jehovah), and understand that I (Jehovah) am he (Jehovah): before me (Jehovah) there was no God (theos- lesser than the divine name of GOD in this context, eg- god, gods) formed, neither shall there be after me (Jehovah)." To be sure, The Holy Prophet and Lawgiver Moses asserted the identical when he quotes the Lord Jehovah (starting in 32:36) and then states there are no other gods [theos, eyhl), meaning less than the divine name of GOD, eg- god, gods] beside him. And to double check the Holy Prophet Isaiah, he again asserts, 45:5 (NWT) "I am Jehovah (ku/riov, HWHY), and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God [theos, eyhl)- less than the name of GOD, god, gods]." Let's be fair and see the Holy Prophet Isaiah uses "theos" in the affirmative as a name for GOD. 45:21-22, (NWT), "21 Make YOUR report and YOUR presentation. Yes, let them consult together in unity. Who has caused this to be heard from a long time ago? [Who] has reported it from that very time? Is it not I, Jehovah (ku/riov, HWHY) , besides whom there is no other God [theos, eyhl)- lesser than the divine, eg, god, gods]; a righteous God [theos, l)- a name for GOD] and a Savior, there being none excepting me? 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God [theos, l)- a name for GOD] , and there is no one else." I would contend the word theos is not being used in the context you intend; as in Christ being a created god. Jehovah clearly states He is it, and there are none others apart from him, God, Gods, god, or gods.
Because you are stating it wrong; it is Gods, with a capital G. We are told in the Bible that there are thousands of gods, but only one Mighty God and one Almighty God. Even the Roman emporers were celebrated as gods because they made the laws, and judged the people. The word judge has the same root as god.
The only begotton son of the Father. The Seed. The Word. The Messiah. The first creation of Almighty God who has been beside Him from the beginning of creation, and, as the son, created everything under direction from his Father.
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
#16. To: Elliott Jackalope (#12)
I agree completely. Religions use a variety of scriptures (this conversation concerning the Bible) to their advantage by twisting, torturing and revising them in order to gain control of their followers. Then these ("followers") zealots in most instances get a 2 week study course in "their religion" and think they have to evangelize the world, when even the most brilliant of scriptural scholars are satisfied that they will never uncover the complete knowledge that lies buried in multiple layers of scripture like precious gems, and content themselves with learning rather than propagandizing.
As far as I'm concerned ALL religions suck, and the more they insist that THEY are the "one true belief" the more they suck. Some suck a little, some suck a lot, and some suck like a black hole on steroids, but ultimately they all suck.
Where's your birth certificate Barack ? Where's your Granny ??? Are Americans expected to subject themselves to an unapologetic communist ??? Ya just gotta be shittin me !!!
#17. To: richard9151 (#14)
I have to be honest with you that I don't know how much longer I am going to engage in religious polemics on a message board. I don't know that much good comes of it even though I do rather enjoy the challenges of back and forth. I am saddened that quite a few have taken to mock and ridicule your faith. I've been down that road on the receiving end and I hope I have not done the same to you. I hope your church is not pressuring you to stop message board posting permanently. In my personal opinion that would be controlling and conditioning you not to examine outside sources and go against what George Carlin always maintained, which is continually question reality. I do give up the posting on occasion during certain fasting periods so I understand the (call) for self imposed breaks. That said, if your time posting on the net is near an end, my heartfelt advice is two words: pursue God.
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
#18. To: noone222, Elliott Jackalope (#16)
That is interesting. Is that what Jesus Christ told us to do? Second, Jesus displayed justice in the way he preached the good news of God’s Kingdom. He showed no bias. Rather, he earnestly endeavored to reach all kinds of people, whether rich or poor. In contrast, the Pharisees dismissed poor, common people with the contemptuous term 59;am-ha·’a82;rets, or “people of the land.” Jesus courageously set that injustice right. When he taught people the good news—or, for that matter, when he ate with people, fed them, cured them, or even resurrected them—he upheld the justice of the God who wants to reach “all sorts of men.”—1 Timothy 2:4. Learn, and shut up? Or is it, shut up, and learn? Maybe I am confused, esp. since I am congregating with people who have studied the Bible for more than 40 years. We can imitate Jesus. We can make the Christian ministry the primary focus of our life. Even though we may have family and secular obligations, we can show that our ministry comes first by having a zealous, regular share in it, as Jesus did. (Matthew 6:33; 1 Timothy 5:8) We can expend ourselves in the ministry, giving generously of our time, energy, and resources to support it. (Luke 13:24) And we can keep ever in mind that our work is urgent. (2 Timothy 4:2) Two weeks, indeed! I spent more than 20 years reading the Bible; enough time that I clensed myself of most of the non-sense of the world. If Elliot has a problem, that problem is with himself, because knowledge is a personal responsibility, so that when I found people who actually taught from the Bible, I RECOGNIZED THEM!! That is the difference, so that both of you understand. I did the study, and the work, that when I found that which I was searching for, I recognized the Truth, direct from the Bible. Joining with the Jehovah's Witnesses was just like coming home. People who actually teach, AND LIVE, the Bible. Amazing. And amazing that others hate them for that, just as it says in the Bible; “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” He added: “If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.” (John 13:35; 15:19) Like Jesus, Jehovah’s modern-day Witnesses are hated by the world yet known for their love. I have never in my life been around people who show such love and compassion for each other. And then I listen to such as you two, who have no personal knowledge nor understanding, but talk as parrots, repeating what you have heard. That is also truly amazing.
and content themselves with learning rather than propagandizing.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#19. To: scooter (#17)
I understand, but not me! Check out my reply to noone and Elliot. I hope your church is not pressuring you to stop message board posting permanently. What they counsel is to not bother with hard hearted people, which is pretty much 99.9% of the people within the United States. And they are correct. There are so many who wish to learn the truth, that why waste the time? if your time posting on the net is near an end, my heartfelt advice is two words: pursue God. My time is, indeed, coming to an end, but it is a self imposed end simply because I have too much work to do here, face to face with people who truly wish to learn the Bible. I see nothing of that desire here, nor in other locations within the US, which goes a long way to explain what has happened to America. God Bless, Richard
I am saddened that quite a few have taken to mock and ridicule your faith.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#20. To: richard9151 (#18)
Takes one to know one, Richard. You think it's OK to force feed your brand of religious belief to others that might prefer you leave them out of your cult. You're like the Jehovah Witness from hell hybridized with the energizer bunny.
I have never in my life been around people who show such love and compassion for each other. And then I listen to such as you two, who have no personal knowledge nor understanding, but talk as parrots, repeating what you have heard. That is also truly amazing.
Where's your birth certificate Barack ?
#21. To: noone222, Elliott Jackalope (#20)
Tell me, both of you, do you even open a Bible once a year? It is, I admit, depressing to hear such as you two after I spend time with the Witnesses. Let me give you an example. Last night, in our weekly book study, we went over a few verses from the last 12 books of the Old Testament, the minor prophets. Truly amazing. What we were studying were the commandands of Almighty God as to how we are to treat our brothers and sisters. And comparing that to how Jehovah God treats us, with undeserved kindness. Talking about the fruitage of the Spirit, nonsense to you, noone, I know, but quite enlightening to me. Of course, I understood it before, but this hour and a half study, listening to my friends dissect the verses and show how other parts of the Bible explain them, truly, truly helped clear up any lingering doubts I may have had. In the early 1990s, in Africa, 10 Witnesses, black of course, so it probably does not count to you two, were hung because they would not learn war any more; they refused to join with the military of the new government. I assure you, I count them as my brothers far more than I count either of you, who complain about what is happening, about all of the lies, but go along to get along WITH THE WORLD VIEW. Oh, and plan on how to start killing, despite what Almighty God commands. And you wonder why Jesus Christ said that not all who call Lord Lord will be saved? Many of the people I now am lucky to associate with have spent 40 years dissecting veses in the Bible amoung friends, and you two wonder why you live in blindness? It is because you simply have refused to study and learn. There is no other reason, and you will pay a price for your chosen ignorance. It is not up to me or anyone else to educate you, either of you; all that can be done is give you a reason to start learning. It is your responsibility. No one can open the Bible for you; only you can do that, and as it says in the Bible, few indeed will do so.
You're like the Jehovah Witness from hell hybridized with the energizer bunny.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
#22. To: richard9151 (#21)
No amount of arguing with you is ever going to result in anything but a lot of wasted time and energy. You're utterly convinced you are right and that everyone else who does not agree with you is wrong. I could point out things in the bible that don't make sense, or that are contradictory, or that are flat out wrong, and you'll come back and say "no no no, really, that's not right, because...." and then cite fifty different verses from different sections of the bible. I've played this game before, and as of now it just makes me weary. You have every right to believe what you want to believe, I won't begrudge you that. But why do you keep insisting on pushing your beliefs down everyone else's throats? On and on and ON and ON and ON and ON. It really gets obnoxious. But then again, when people call you on that, and say "Come on already, give it a rest, we're all really getting tired of this nonsense" that just energizes you, doesn't it? Because then you can say "See? See? They REJECT the LORD! Just like the book SAID they would!" Fine. Go ahead, keep it up. Just consider this my final message to you, because you just made it onto my bozo list. Goodbye.
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