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Title: What about population control?
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Published: Nov 17, 2008
Author: salemguy
Post Date: 2008-11-17 23:35:10 by salemguy
Keywords: None
Views: 1481
Comments: 127
So I've been looking at comments about Obama's new war plans, not, and something that's been bugging me for a while causes me to post this. I'm curious what you think and what you think we should do, as a freedom forum. When, with all these crises on climate change, energy, food, water, land use, environment, etc., are we going to address the problem of too many people? I'm pretty sure we already have too many people. How should we do that? I think we should have global goals for a population reduction of 50% by 2050, via natural deaths, contraception, and abortion. How do we get there?
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#32. To: farmfriend (#31)
It's mostly due to morons who live in places like Southern California or Arizona and run their sprinklers 24 hours a day, seven days a week to grow a lawn.
No it's mostly do to enviros who insist on having water for their yachts like during the Klamath water crisis. Oh they claimed it was for the fish, that didn’t need it btw, but the reality was the guy who set the water levels was commodore of the yacht club and that was the first year they didn't have to pull their boats out. He claimed there still wasn't enough water though the lake was at record levels. It's due to enviros who want to save an artificial lake at the expense of the farmers who created it, all because birds have managed to take advantage of it. It's because our forests are overgrown with all those trees sucking up the water supplies causing less runoff and unhealthy forests. I could go on but I won't.
Ich werde mit Ihnen für das Schwein sprechen, das Sie sind.
"Not the victory but the action; Not the goal but the game; In the deed the glory" Dies ist gut You're probably aware of the fact that many environmental groups also oppose unlimited third world immigration into the US, because third world people have families 2-5 times the size of westerners.
Los Angeles: 2018 A.D.
Ja "Not the victory but the action; Not the goal but the game; In the deed the glory" Dies ist gut The world is much much bigger then Texas. That should answer most of those questions.
I've always thought that colonization of space was the only real solution to overpopulation. If there were a significant and determined effort, we should be able to build starships in the not so distant future. However, I don't see that happening due to the greed and waste inherent in our society.
I firmly believe that the Chinese and maybe even the Indians are going to be in the lead. My pet hypothesis is that the Chinese establish a Lunar base by sending up a bunch of astronauts, start a Lunar base. They don't come back like our guys did, but immediately being establishing a Chinese presence. They stay there, and more follow with increased living quarters and additional personnel, some or all of the original coming home. We've lost our faith in science, progress and are full of selfdoubt. Other countries are not as mired in navel watching angst as we are.
Yes, this is covered in Sociology 101. However, this was not my point. I was mining a hole in A K A Stone's logic.
Je tu déteste aussi, mec. Ta gueule.
The problem with a lunar base is that it is just an outpost, it could never truly be a permanent habitat for a population due to the lack of an atmosphere and the harsh temperatures. What is truly needed is interstellar exploration in order to find a planet similar to Earth that has a hospitable environment and breathable atmosphere. Once that happens, we could build interstellar ferries to transport large numbers of people there to truly colonize that world. It's not as far-fetched as it sounds.
I was just pointing out position (in favor of third world immigration and population control simultaneously) is just as inconsistent and illogical as Old Friend's (against third world immigration, in favor of unlimited population growth).
If the US population density were as high as Japan's, we would have to adopt a lifestyle very much like the Japanese. I doubt that you would like it very much if you had to give up your big, roomy house and yard for a little studio apartment, as even the wealthy Japanese are forced to do. And the Japanese model is a best case scenario.
It's easy. The only reason the earth can support this many people is because of nitrogen fertilizers, which are the result of advanced technology. No nitrogen fertilizers, half the world dies off.
Pugs rule, all other dogs drool.
They are working on getting rid of those. Causes problems with reefs and algae plumes.
And I pointed out right back that I was not addressing that, I was dealing with foundational flaws to his way of looking at global population problems. First and foremost, we all, globally, need to defuse the population time bomb. All countries have a fundimantal human requisite to do this, and do so in a way that is as fair as possible to everyone in the world as possible. I know full well how and why countries evolve from one modus and frame of reference concerning population growth, as it is a fundimental that is extensively expounded on in sociology. I was in Special Forces in Utah which has a part of 19th Froup there. I heard the same tired saw A K A Stone worked in here many times from Mormons constantly there. I was not impressed then, and it does not impress me now.
FWIW, there is no population time bomb. The Earth can support twice as many people as now. The problem is not resources, but their allocation, logistics, administration and corruption causing waste, theft, inefficiencies.
Actually, what will be terrifying about lunar culture is a people in possession of the high ground. It is far, far easier to 'throw rocks' at Earth from a shallow gravity well then it is to do the same from Earth's deep gravitational well. They will be far more then an outpost, and the conflict to control Luna will be bloody and very intense in the next century. At least that's how I see it from my perspective.
Human life is far from being the most important thing on this planet. All life is sacred and all species have a right to exist for their own value unto themselves. Yes, if we were more efficient and less piggy, we indeed could crowd lots more hairless primates all over the place, but this is something I am intensely opposed to. I am a very strong proponent of deep ecology, and we must bring our numbers under control, and reduce our load and burden on this planet sanely and relatively bloodlessly by attrition. As people die naturally, less people should be born to take their place. I strongly support the end to abortion and do not believe in genocide as any means to an end. But I have believed my entire life there is too many people on this planet, and this is a central notion to my belief system that is in no way shape or form open for discussion to change.
Yes, it can. The question is what quality of life we'd have at significantly higher population densities. Both the US and Japan are wealthy, developed, first world countries, but many American would be uncomfortable if they had to live the cramped and congested lives that are typical for Japan, or any other place with a very dense population. I don't see zero population growth as a bad thing, at least not when it comes about through the decisions that people make for themselves. In first world countries, people will have fewer children (one or two) and invest a lot into them, as opposed to having ten or more with less investment per child. Zero population growth will become more and more the norm as living standards and levels of education increase.
Thing is, the moon is just a barren rock with no air, food, or water. It wouldn't solve a overpopulation problem, as the same problems would exist there as here, with the added problem of regularly transporting at least water and fuel just to maintain those people living there. Food can be grown or raised, water can't be created from nothing however, and it takes fuel to keep the lights on when the sun goes down.
The population bomb will naturally defuse itself. More and more developing countries have an educated middle class, and will see families with two children instead of a dozen. European countries are at zero population growth by their own people's volition, not by any China style social engineering scheme. "Be bountiful and multiply" is a relic of times where most kids had a good chance of dying before reaching adulthood and everyone needed as many hands to work the family farm as possible. Now that times have changed in the developed world and are changing in the developing world, nobody thinks that having as many children as possible is the world's greatest virtue. Once people have education and money, they'd rather spend their resources on a smaller number of children than spread it among many to hedge their bets.
You are still thinking like an Earthling. When you require next to no energy to land or take off from a small ball of mud like Luna, you can get anything you want from say another shallow gravity well like a moon of Jupiter, some of which have plenty of aqua. The solar system is your oyster, and people in deeper gravity wells are at the tender mercies of any really tyrannical government that develops there. There will be no problem being very well endowed with resources up there that make those who live there in the future quite rich and powerful. I predict that many will be so myopic about this with no real foresight into this we will collectively be shocked and caught entirely by surprise. I have long sought to think outside the box on this issue, and frankly, I am very worried about this.
Yes, this is precisely why developed countries have a lower birthrate compared to developing nations, and this is precisely what I was alluding to. I am just not really in the mood this holiday season to rehash this. But thanks for dragging me into this anyway. It is nice to know you do understand some fundimentals of sociology. I still do not agree though the Population Bomb will defuse that easily, but that does not mean I do not deeply hope that you are right here. Cheers.
*giggle*
~ Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
With the simple idea of propelling a craft at one earth gravity for a year, that craft would enjoy stable gravity at a level all humans are accustomed to. Once that year passes, that craft is travelling at near light speed velocity. That in itself would be a HUGE test of the Theory of Relativity, and prove or disprove what happens at those velocities. We currently have the means to build such a ship. Do you get my point yet?
ROTFLMAO! I saw a bumper sticker on a car parked at Vermont's Quechee Gorge parking area one day that stated "Two's company, 6 billion is too many people!" Now did the occupants of the car offer to 'get the ball rolling' by leaping off the bridge to splash their brains all over the rocks 200 feet below? Of course not. Hypocrits. You want population control? Off yourself. Do it now. For the other children.
There was a piece on the news last night about all the starving people lining up at food banks; and how terrible it was that there wasn't enough food to go around. Meanwhile; I stumble across a website that shows how a family in a California urban setting grows 3 TONS of produce on 1/10 of an acre on an annual basis. You lazy b*tards want food??? Then GROW some. Container gardening...it can be done almost ANYWHERE. Git 'er done.
Democrats...Republicans... :-)
Yup, I do lots of container gardening and I live in an apartment. It works! I have tomatoes, peppers, herbs, flowers, even roses..
How do we get there? We come to your house and reduce the family by 50% starting with you.
Where's your birth certificate Barack ?
The tax and super-spend politicians need the pyramidal structure of an ever increasing population to justify their debt.
Where's your birth certificate Barack ?
EXACTLY!!!
It is now time for Atlas to shrug.
Darn right it works! I am so tired of listening to these people whine becuase the food banks are running short. Geez...a few 3-gallon pots; an earth box, or hanging baskets and you will be up to your hindquarters in vegetables. Save seeds and you won't be able to give them all away. I try to show people every year how they can grow more vegetables than they would know what to do with; and they blow me off. To hell with it...if you aren't willing to take the bull by the horns, then sit down, shut up, and quit whining. "Teach a man to fish..."
Sounds very interesting. What are they growing and how are they doing it?
Do you eat meat? If you do then you just broke your "have a right to exist" motto.
I'm trying to find out...I've seen some photos that show Earth Boxes and raised beds ('square foot gardening'); but I am trying to contact them directly.
Well, goodness, I guess I've learned how to use this forum. I've been waiting for a while for some intelligent thought, just checking my pings, which seem uniformly to suggest I kiil myself or volunteer to be murdered, or my mother made a mistake (lotta bright shit here, eh?), but I took some time today to poke around, and lo and behold, there is actually some clear perception, even agreement out there! Sorry it took me so long to figure that out. I don't visit every day. Hope to keep the thread alive, and contribute. Getting human population under control, using all means - education, contraception, abortion, sterilzation and euthansia - is as important, perhaps more so, as curbing our environmental impacts! The two are intricately related. For those looking for a framework, and a civil discussion, check this piece of research work out: http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/113-9/ehp0113-a00598.pdf (7.3Mb) For Rowdee, I'm a business project manager most recently into organic soil amendments and biofuels, but I do love butterflies. And for farmfriend, who said "bad government policy driven by environmentalism" has caused western US water issues, sorry, there really isn't enough water. I grew up in the west and watched the mighty Colorado turn into a saline trickle.
You don't deserve a 'civil discussion'. You deserve a visit from Grim Reaper followed by a visit from a salt truck. That's what you deserve oh dark and dangerous soul.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Uh, thanks again for a constructive comment... what is so dark and dangerous about addressing population control?
Comments (73 - 127) not displayed.
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#33. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#32)
(Edited)
It's mostly due to morons who live in places like Southern California or Arizona and run their sprinklers 24 hours a day, seven days a week to grow a lawn.
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. —Thomas Jefferson, 1802
#34. To: Ferret Mike (#30)
#35. To: Ferret Mike (#25)
Though I'm glad you feel this way, as obviously there is more then enough room in these United States for as many illegal immigrants as we can entice in.
#36. To: Beendigen Sie die Kommunisten (#29)
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#37. To: X-15 (#36)
Los Angeles: 2018 A.D.
#38. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#26)
Do you think you'd be able to enjoy the quality of life that you have with a population density that high? For starts, many of the western states have water shortages now. If you had twice the population that the US has today, you can say hello to water rationing over a good part of the country.
#39. To: salemguy (#0)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#40. To: FormerLurker (#39)
in our society.
#41. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#35)
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#42. To: Beendigen Sie die Kommunisten (#34)
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#43. To: swarthyguy (#40)
My pet hypothesis is that the Chinese establish a Lunar base by sending up a bunch of astronauts, start a Lunar base
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#44. To: Ferret Mike (#41)
#45. To: Old Friend (#38)
(Edited)
#46. To: salemguy (#0)
How do we get there?
#47. To: Turtle, salemguy (#46)
No nitrogen fertilizers, half the world dies off.
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. —Thomas Jefferson, 1802
#48. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#44)
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#49. To: Ferret Mike (#48)
#50. To: FormerLurker (#43)
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#51. To: swarthyguy (#49)
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#52. To: swarthyguy (#49)
The Earth can support twice as many people as now.
#53. To: Ferret Mike (#50)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#54. To: Ferret Mike, swarthyguy (#48)
#55. To: FormerLurker (#53)
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#56. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#54)
"The population bomb will naturally defuse itself. More and more developing countries have an educated middle class, and will see families with two children instead of a dozen. European countries are at zero population growth by their own people's volition, not by any China style social engineering scheme."
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power -- he's free again. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
#57. To: Ferret Mike (#51)
Human life is far from being the most important thing on this planet. All life is sacred and all species have a right to exist for their own value unto themselves.
#58. To: Ferret Mike (#55)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#59. To: mirage (#1)
You're welcome to lead by example.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#60. To: Old Friend (#21)
The entire earth population can fit in Texas with about 1400 sq ft per person. It is nowhere close to full or overpopulated. Problems with food etc is because of mans wars and greed. Not overpopulation. Anyone who thinks that we are overpopulated needs to kill themself.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#61. To: Lady X (#22)
Yeah, can I nominate some folks??
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#62. To: who knows what evil (#60)
#63. To: salemguy (#0)
I think we should have global goals for a population reduction of 50% by 2050, via natural deaths, contraception, and abortion.
#64. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#54)
"Be bountiful and multiply" is a relic of times where most kids had a good chance of dying before reaching adulthood and everyone needed as many hands to work the family farm as possible.
#65. To: who knows what evil (#59)
You want population control? Off yourself. Do it now. For the other children.
#66. To: Lady X (#62)
It works! I have tomatoes, peppers, herbs, flowers, even roses..
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#67. To: who knows what evil (#60)
3 TONS of produce on 1/10 of an acre
#68. To: Ferret Mike (#51)
Human life is far from being the most important thing on this planet. All life is sacred and all species have a right to exist for their own value unto themselves.
#69. To: Old Friend (#67)
3 TONS of produce on 1/10 of an acre...
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#70. To: rowdee, mirage, noone222, Old Friend, RickyJ, Lady X, Cynicom, Ferret Mike, Rupert_Pupkin, farmfriend (#27)
We are a species out of control that can't live within it's means and is in danger of killing itself off....
#71. To: salemguy (#70)
Getting human population under control, using all means - education, contraception, abortion, sterilzation and euthansia - is as important, perhaps more so, as curbing our environmental impacts! The two are intricately related.
#72. To: Rotara (#71)
That's what you deserve oh dark and dangerous soul.
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