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Title: Debate on 4um censorship--Weigh In!
Source: n/a
URL Source: http://n/a
Published: Jul 24, 2005
Author: Christine and Zipporah
Post Date: 2005-07-24 23:28:38 by christine
Keywords: censorship--Weigh, Debate
Views: 3181
Comments: 295

Because concerns by several members have been posted to us, both publically and privately, about the free speech "allowed" on 4um, we have decided to create three new categories. The primary hot button is that of the Israel/Jewish/Zionism topic. We do not wish to censor and we also do not wish to offend (in reality, unavoidable, as what offends one may not offend another) anyone. With the availability of specific categories, each individual may eliminate an entire subject that he/she wishes not to view via his/her personal 'setup' page.

In the spirit of cooperation, and with the goal of working toward a satisfying and pleasant forum experience for everyone, we'd like to request that you avail yourselves of these specific category selections when posting your articles. The three new categories are:

Israel/Zionism

All is Vanity

Author! Author!

We hope that you all feel that this is an equitable solution.

Christine and Zipporah

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 102.

#16. To: purpleman, Rabble Rouser, rachel, rack42, range, rattler, Red Jones, Refinersfire, RickyJ, RidinShotgun, robin, robnoel, Rothbard, rustyrale, Sam Houston, scooter, siagiah, SKYDRIFTER, Soda Pop, sojourner, soren, sourcery, Starwind, Steppenwolf, Tauzero (#0)

FYI

christine  posted on  2005-07-25   11:58:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Here are my reasons for why "hate speech" merits categorization separate from other categories and what I think "hate speech" is.

There is to me (and others like me) a very clear dividing line between disent or differing opinion that ought to be tolerated and even discussed in 'polite company' versus 'hate speech' that has no redeeming merit for discussion purposes.

Our constitution protects hate speech, and I'm not advocating we change the constitution or lobby for the author to be jailed. He had and exercizes under the consititution, his right to compose and publish and broadcast his viewpoint.

But I do advocate that hate speech not be further imported via Freedom4um into my office/home, or otherwise shoved in my face. My reasons are twofold, one esthetic, the other pragmatic:

• Esthetically, "hate speech" is not edifying in that it offers no information, no critical analysis, no understanding or insights into problems, and no legitimate or lawful solutions - they're just hateful, bigoted rants.
• Pragmatically, "hate speech" is often filled with phrases and words that trip firewall detectors and can bring unwanted scrutiny to the person who happens to browse such material. This happens as discussion forums are often used as "news gateways", but companies have legal liabilities for the actions of their employees and use of their facilities, and view "hate speech" much like pornography, even if viewed accidentally.

I did inquire about fixing the bozo filter such that in the future " hate speech" articles might be hidden, as often is the advocated solution. As it is, the bozo filter does not filter articles on the "Latest" menu, the latest comments page, the headlines page, and doesn't even filter pings from bozo'd posters. Even if Neil makes the enhancements, one then becomes forced to bozo everything from a poster when only a few articles were objectionable, and even that will be circumvented should some other poster post the same or variant articles. Mandating the 'bozo' filter as the solution acts against the poster rather than the article.

In my opinion, "hate speech" is any article wherein the object is to criticize, deride, or otherwise bash some person or group not based on what they have said or done (behavior or actions) but based on their genetic, racial or ethnic background (makeup or appearance).

As a recent example, in The Biological Puzzle of Jewish Behavior the group being targeted was Jews (as happens all too frquently on Freedom4um, as it did on Freedom Underground and as it does on Stormfront), but not because of what Israeli political leaders did, or not because of some newsworthy event of something happening to Jews, and not even because of what a particular Jew did. From the article:

"Wherever any significant community of Whites begins to see the world well enough to understand why we must not race-mix, the Jews know the jig is up for them."

Substitute "White" for Jew (or "male" for Jew) in that article and you'd have something closer to the truth regarding who has the control of our government.

This article would be just as wrong directed againt Women, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Muslims, Christians, Buddists, or Rednecks. It was not criticism of someone's actions or goals, it was criticism of their background - the crime was being a Jew and the loose conspiracy accusations leveled against all Jews because they're Jews.

In my opinion, any and all articles which target indiscriminatly all members of a group based on ethnicity, rather than on specific actions or status, is simple bashing and has no meritorious content and could be deleted (or proscribed) on the simple grounds of being hate speech. It isn't political speech, aside from it being the hate politics of white supremacists, and I see no reason Freedom4um *must* provide such hate-mongers with yet another outlet for their bile.

I favor free political speech, dissent against the mainstream media and political establishment, and a restoration of constitutional government and conservative values. But I am opposed to all racism and hate speech without regard to target. Hating the Jew for being a Jew is just as wrong as hating a black for being black or hating a muslim for being a muslim...etc.

As acknowledged above, while our constitution protects hate speech, our constitutional values are *not* to foster racist hatred of any given ethnic group. We recognize the right of forum owners to censor pornography from Freedom4um, but that is free speech as well. And the forum does not tolerate someone exercising their free speech rights to post pornography. And well they shouldn,'t. I'm glad they don't. But that same judgment call and ownership right exercised against pornography can be made against "hate speech" as well.

This forum to me is like a "newstand" or a gathering place to discuss events, business, politics, even religion with like or even dissimilar points of view. It started with a lot more balance than is evident at present. It has noticibly changed and increasingly is racist in content. Do I have a right to demand that such views not be published? Of course not. Do I have a right to demand the forum revert to what it was when it started, or that such views not be posted here? Of course not. Do I have a right to not have "hate speech" pushed in my face? I think so, especially in light of mechanisms that permit it to be separated, much like pornogrpahy is covered and separated from otherwise disinterested consumers.

Not suprisingly, such a move is met with accusations of trampling the constitution, knuckling under to the Jew power structure and the Illuminati and the RNC and ...whatever the kook conspiracy theory du jour happens to be.

But aside from censoring "incite to violence" if no other line is drawn anywhere to separate even the most extreme hate speech from political dissent, where will the forum lead? If nothing is deemed too racist and hateful, if everything merits discussion, what distinguishes Freedom4um from Stormfront? Why would a rational thoughtful person avoid Stormfront and yet post on Freedom4um only to see the same content?

None of us object to a course being steered toward free political dissent or even dissent in general. But there are many of us who would welcome a course correction away from the growing racism we all see. It is bad enough wading through the interforum wars, profanity and kook conspiracy theories, but the incessant racism (from some posters) puts it over the top.

We have already lost some posters who choose to not associate with a forum that frequently appears to be a platform for racist hate speech. I say 'appears' because while I know that was not the original intent, the frequency of such articles being posted and the number of comments they draw stands out (both in view and in memory) from other news worthy articles. And the number of newsworthy articles and comments diminishes as the posters who are put off by racism depart. As they depart, the remaining posters exercise their tolerance or even proclivity to post further racist hate speech, and overtime the overall appearance of the forum shifts from news and discussion to hate speech.

The solution proposed then (as the bozo filter was deemed inapporpriate) was simply a recategorization of the "hate speech" articles to " Israel/Zionism". I think that is a reasonable compromise that seems to satisfy the various viewpoints as I understand them. I would even suggest a couple further refinements:

1. Consider that (not signed up) lurkers will not have the benefit of filters, perhaps the default ought to be to hide this category, unless opted in via filter (after someone signs up). This way posters get what they want and lukers are presented with a more sanitized "first impression" of the forum. If they are then persuaded to sign up and like the hidden categories, they can eagerly filter them in, or otherwise continue to view the normal default categories they saw when they lurked with no added imposition.
2. There will undoubtedly be other articles targeting other groups besides Jews - Christians and Muslims come to mind as well as the " classics" - Blacks, Mexicans, East Indians, etc. Consequently, thinking ahead, either generalizing the category name to be something not specific to a particular group (say "Ethnic Issues", trying to remove my own value judgements from the category name, or "Rants", "Screeds", etc or "Bait'n n Bash'n" would draw attention and provoke some interest, if that were desired). Alternatively, a new category for each group when/if it is found that particular group being newly targeted. My personal style is to initially opt for the more general solution to most problems as they tend to be more trouble free and low overhead down the road. I also think one general category is simpler to manage and explain to the forum.

At present, it has not been explained what belongs in "Israel/ Zionism" and so one would assume it would be any and all articles discussing Israel/ Zionism both legitimate as well as 'hate speech', which to me seems overkill in that most of the articles posted about Israel/Zionism are not what I would consider hate speech and not in need of recategorization, but more problematic, the broad category doesn't separate the legitimate from the hate speech.

There are many articles posted about Israel or even Zionism, many of which I can understand and accept the complaints of the authors while a few I might care to dispute the historical facts. But it would seem this one category would lump together these news reports or editorials which generally are not objectionable, with the occasional "hate speech" article I don't care to see. I think that is true for others as well. The objection is not against all or most articles about Israel/Zionism, but just against the few that seem to have no purpose other than to bash Jews for being Jewish (and in the future to bash Mexicans for being Mexican, Indian's for being Indian, etc. but all of them being not- White).

So, standard news reports and editorials about Israel/Zionism could continue to be posted in the normal News, War, etc categories, so as to continue to give them maximum exposure to the entire forum and perhaps change the category name to "Bait'n n Bash'n" :) - that name alone explains a lot - " Ethnic Issues", or some such, and ostensibly the purpose of this category would be as follows:

Articles that now belong in "Bait'n n Bash'n" ["Ethnic Issues" or whatever] are those that express a biased editorial opinion (as opposed to factual research), pro or con (to be fair), predominantly generalizing:

• about an ethnic or racial group without regard to specific members actions or status, or;
• advocating the superiority or inferiority of one group versus another, or;,
• alledging a particular ethnic group is responsible for an unsubstantiated conspiracy,
  (list to be amended as needed)

As an example, the following threads (as explained for each) might then be moved to "Bait'n n Bash'n":

The Biological Puzzle of Jewish Behavior.(editorialize about being Jewish)
THE SEVEN jEWISH BANKING FAMILIES WHO OWN THE PRIVATE 'FEDERAL RESERVE BANKING CORPORATION (unsubstantiated conspiracy by Jews)
One More Hate Letter (racial superiority or inferiority)

Starwind  posted on  2005-07-25   20:33:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Are you living in Canada? Germany? Israel? You use the term 'hate speech' as if it's a statute. Please, my friend, we’re doing all we can to keep that vile form of PC away from these shores - we hardly need someone like you so willing to concede it already exists. Why not simply walk past articles and posters that bother you, or don't conform to your belief system? Why do you feel the need to define other POV as ’hate’. If we’re going down that path, what I see coming from you is censorship.

If the compromise Christine and Zip put together doesn’t satisfy you, I suggest it’s you who has the problem, not us. Perhaps 4 is too free for you.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-07-25   20:51:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Why not simply walk past articles and posters that bother you, or don't conform to your belief system?

I would like to do just that. I'm not asking they be removed. I'm only asking that the filter solution actually work.

I'm sure you understand the holes in the bozo filter regarding "content", Neil and Christine do.

And I'm confident you also understand my view that most articles about Israel/ Zionism (as well as nearly all articles posted on F4) are worth my reading.

And so I believe you therefore understand how filtering out the entire Israel/ Zionism category is overkill.

Consequently you seem to implicitly accept the approach of moving Israel/Zionism articles into their own category, so why do not accept moving far, far fewer articles into an even narrower category?

You seem to have accepted categorization as a solution. Why disagree with categorizing only those articles which raise objections?

You seem to recognize that it isn't censorship. The articles aren't being removed. rather a means is being discussed as to how best permit their precise filtering, a filtering everyone seems to advocate.

What would be the point in implementing a solution that is both overkill and doesn't solve the problem?

Why do you feel the need to define other POV as 'hate'. If we're going down that path, what I see coming from you is censorship.

The "need" to be precise in the definition is so to commmunicate to others what precisely ought to be filtereed so as to avoid overkill. And I wasn't so imprecise as to merely define all other points of view as hate, did I. No, I was quite specific.

But, what problem do you have in categorizing as hate those articles that express a biased baseless opinion that targets entire groups as racially inferior or superior, or guilty of conspiracies by racial background, merely based on their race?

We categorize everything else on F4, why not racial hatred?

Starwind  posted on  2005-07-25   21:20:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

But, what problem do you have in categorizing as hate those articles that express a biased baseless opinion that targets entire groups as racially inferior or superior, or guilty of conspiracies by racial background, merely based on their race?

What problem do you have in not simply skipping by such articles? Is that a problem for YOU? Turn the channel, so to speak.

Or, better yet, try analyzing and taking to task articles that are IN YOUR OWN VIEW biased, baseless opinion.

You can argue on the merits and substance, yes? Are you afraid you may find that some of these articles and opinions are not so baseless? After all, isn't that the essence of a politcal forum such as this--the give and take of polical discourse?

I guess it needs to be remembered that biased and baseless is in the eyes of the beholder.

I also know that the absent a full discussion on the merits and substance of an issue or arguement, the declaration of "biased and baseless" is a true sign of intellectual bankruptcy--a tacit admission of being on the illogical and unreasonable side--a short hop to the gratuitous name calling. But to some that is the objective--the avoidance of a free and open discussion on the merits and substance on particular issues and topics. It is SOP at many internet forums. No so, it appears, here.

wbales  posted on  2005-07-25   22:35:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Well said, If I don't wish to read a particular article, I skip past it. Heck - sometimes I even read it even if I do not have anything to add. How can you learn things unless you study BOTH sides of an issue?

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-07-25   22:41:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Well said, If I don't wish to read a particular article, I skip past it. Heck - sometimes I even read it even if I do not have anything to add. How can you learn things unless you study BOTH sides of an issue?

Zionists agitprop agents will advocate some degree of censorship or repression of their opponents and/or critics. This may include a very active campaign to keep opponents from access to public forums, as in the case of blacklisting, banning or "quarantining" dissident spokespersons. They may actually lobby for forum policies against posting articles they deem offensive, or banning forum members who post forbidden information. In each case the goal is some kind of information control. They would prefer that you listen only to them. They feel threatened when someone talks back or challenges their views.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-07-26   11:01:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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