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Title: Debate on 4um censorship--Weigh In!
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Published: Jul 24, 2005
Author: Christine and Zipporah
Post Date: 2005-07-24 23:28:38 by christine
Keywords: censorship--Weigh, Debate
Views: 3290
Comments: 295
Because concerns by several members have been posted to us, both publically and privately, about the free speech "allowed" on 4um, we have decided to create three new categories. The primary hot button is that of the Israel/Jewish/Zionism topic. We do not wish to censor and we also do not wish to offend (in reality, unavoidable, as what
offends one may not offend another) anyone. With the availability of specific categories, each individual may eliminate an entire subject that he/she wishes not to view via his/her personal 'setup' page.
In the spirit of cooperation, and with the goal of working toward a satisfying and pleasant forum experience for everyone, we'd like to request that you avail yourselves of these specific category selections when posting your articles. The three new categories are:
Israel/Zionism
All is Vanity
Author! Author!
We hope that you all feel that this is an equitable solution.
Christine and Zipporah
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#144. To: Esso (#140)
Yeah, and maybe they're looking in to see what true FREE SPEECH is. Outstanding post, Esso.
Fine by me. Always would have been. But as long as I was asked, don't expect me to blow smoke. Fine. Then at least put an end to the fantasy that filtering is the solution, that I'm dictating your forum management, and that I'm trying to censor posters. If you ask me my opinion, don't be surprised when you get it, and please don't recast it into "demands".
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I've done some testing on the bozo filtering and I do need to revisit it. Starwind is correct in some of these filtering holes. The bozo filter apparently is not working in the title box, but the category filter is. Both filters work on the LC page, but not the Latest Article page (which I'm guessing Starwind meant). It does not work on the headlines page, though that page is not visited much so it's not been much of a priority overall. I am seeing that bozo'd posters are never displayed on the LC page so I don't understand the last item. One difficult programming decision is what should happen if you have a category filtered, but then get pinged from a non-bozo in that category. Should you not see the ping because it's in a filtered category, or should the ping from the non-bozo take precedence over the category filter? And again what if a ping list you're subscribed to is used on a filtered category? Should the subscription ping or the category filter take precedence? Some might want to get the ping, some might not. Perhaps what should happen is the LC page should warn the user that they've been pinged to a filtered category (?) I could have the preference be indicated on the user setup page, but that might make things a little complicated for many to understand. There are other filtering options I've thought of which could help. One would be an "Ignore Thread" feature where if you see one particular thread you don't like that perhaps is generating dozens or hundreds of posts (and dominating the LC page), you can filter out that particular thread for perhaps 1 week. Another possible option is a Title Word filter where you give list of words on your setup page. If any of those words appear in the title of a thread, it's bozod. (I.e. "Jews" or "Zionism"). But yes, Starwind is correct that the present filtering is not doing everything it should be doing. I'll turn my attention to that in the coming days.
Outstanding play-by-play analysis. You should be a sports announcer -- missed your calling.
Plain talk like that is what we need. It's not just Todd.. At the risk of offending some people, I'll just say it out loud: Regardles of the free speech claims, "Anti-semitic" (Whatever that means now) material has, at times, met with a sub-zero response there. The Zio-Censors can count the havoc they caused on FU as, at least, a partial victory.. While Todd's quickly taking of what remains. :(
"Working Three Jobs is: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic... Get any sleep?" (Laughs) ~ George W Bush
Good grief, Neil. This filtering and categorizing stuff is complex, cumbersome, and expensive -- all so some overly sensitive soul won't become offended and suffer post-traumatic stress disorder from having laid eyes on some text.
Wasn't this post originally called "3 New Catagories" ? Now is titled "Debate on 4um censorship--Weigh In!" Could the "critisiums" or "comments" sent to Neil, Chrissy, or Zip be posted here (not revealing who made them)?
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
Kind of like what she went through when she found out there was no Santa Clause
Book recommendation: Thinking About Social Thinking
Ha! A new career, eh? I’m actually working on one presently. It’s called vagabond.
Yes, I changed the title last night as I wanted to encourage comment by all members. The criticisms and comments are being posted here now as per my invitation to do so.
Perhaps, but at minimum, the existing filters should function as advertised. No debating that.
But then again, Jethro, what do you know? Post your petty, snide remarks to someone who's interested.
So true. The place has a mole in a key position. The place is NTBT (not to be trusted).
What about the complaints? Is it too "exposing" to reveal them to make a level playing field for debate?
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
We're done now, crack, thanks.
Provided a decision is made at some point to further refine the filters, I'd suggest just simplfying this mess and taking the patron at their word. When they de-select options, I'd say that puts the onus on them.. The ball is in their court. You choose "NO, I don't want to see that" just filter everything. Member Pings, Subscription pings, all of it. It would seem simpler to implement from the programmers point of view, and.. if you leave a loophole here then, IMVHO, you can expect a whole new thread complaining about it at some point in the future. Hyper-sensitive patrons who never wish to miss a ping, probably shouldn't be de- selecting categories to begin with.. Should they?
"Working Three Jobs is: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic... Get any sleep?" (Laughs) ~ George W Bush
I think this "debate" then has been very productive.
Same thing.
I've heard you're already a vagabond virtuoso.
The *proper* response to "hate speech" is additional speech, engaging the person and winning a debate. A loser's tactic is censorship. Of course, there is always the "If you don't like what you're reading, don't read it." The First Amendment very nearly requires "hate speech" to be responded to with additional speech exposing the "hate speech" for what it is and challenging its author/speaker to defend it. Its a nicely self-policing system when used as originally intended.
There's been allot of speculation about that.. I know I saw something from a PM show up elsewhere, once. I like Bret, personally.. and I like FU. But to say it doesn't have some very real issues that remain completely unaddressed would be dishonest.
"Working Three Jobs is: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic... Get any sleep?" (Laughs) ~ George W Bush
Thank you.....and very well stated.
I would too, but those are people that I have zero interaction with and it would be in DC where there are clear crime statistics pointing to more risk. It's not completely analytical obviously it's partly visceral, but I try to be more analytical once I have some interaction. On an anonymous crime-free forum it does not matter one iota what the race of any poster is. Unless they wear it on their sleeve. I choose to drink very little. If you told me you were Irish and didn't mention the alcoholic disposition of that race, I would assume nothing. But maybe that's just inexperience. Or too much experience, my GF died an alcoholic and my dad was borderline, but I drink in a few social situations without any problem.
(If you see flies at the entrance to the burrow, the ground hog is probably inside)
Ahhhh..... I see I struck bone. Ouch!
Personal attacks will not go endlessly unanswered, Jethro. Play nice.
I would just add that standard deviations are important as well. Some group with a lower IQ (for example) may have a greater range of IQ's than the overall population. Add in cultural tendencies and physical differences and you end up with musical geniuses or perhaps even basketball geniuses.
(If you see flies at the entrance to the burrow, the ground hog is probably inside)
Sounds very Randian.
(If you see flies at the entrance to the burrow, the ground hog is probably inside)
Indeed. A standard deviation is one of the primary statistical standards used to compare (analyze) group mean differences.
Yes, the bozo'd comment/article post is not listed on the LC page, but if one clicks on the article itself (via either the "Latest menu" or headlines page, or a ping, the body of the anchor article itself even though posted by a bozo'd poster, appears in full text (unlike a bozo'd comment). The anchor article body is not filtered the same as a comment. And a post (unsolicited and undesired) from a bozo'd poster to [me] (I'm in the recipient list) shows up in my search of posts "to [me]".
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
A loser's tactic is censorship. Of course, there is always the "If you don't like what you're reading, don't read it." The First Amendment very nearly requires "hate speech" to be responded to with additional speech exposing the "hate speech" for what it is and challenging its author/speaker to defend it. Its a nicely self-policing system when used as originally intended. Ideally, in a perfect world, yes. But we don't live in a perfect world. Though the ideals shouldn't be abandoned and should be targeted, there are practical limits to what any of us are willing to listen too, myself included.
The censors are always on the attack. An equitable solution was provided, and a day later it's not enough. The scary part is, many groups like the ADL won't stop at Christine censoring the forum. Only tight government control with an Orwellian enforcement arm will suffice. Then christine will have to answer to govt investigators. That is where censorship leads. And Americans will be comfortable about it, because citizens were censoring for years on their own because of coercion. Not 1 inch should be given on this issue. These censors assign rights to spec int minority groups, while removing them from individuals. Talk about a 1-2 punch, eh? Those groups gain power and we lose it, all in one move.
Yawn. The same innane respose I get everytime I point out something that you would prefer to keep under wraps. You're starting to sound like a broken record.
you are right,it's the net and if someone does not want to be offended, then skip over the content that offends you. You can't escape the forum insult factor here anyway. If I wanted to, I could ping "Shitwind" or "Buttcrack Monkey" (no insult intended). Whats to prevent you from seeing that? A ping filter? How? You would have to know in advance what someone was going to post.
"that meatball?" "Meatball with gravy, Val!"
The founders gave each individual a robust set of individual rights that protect us from tyranny. Why do the censors want to remove some of these after they have worked for hundreds of years? Think about the magnitude of this change. It will represent the end of freedom when enforced by the fed govt (hate crime laws). All to benefit special interest groups- especially Jewish groups. So, groups are being given rights that make sure indivs can't speak about them in certain negative terms. The indiv loses his 1st amendment rights, for what? To give groups deemed special by the govt more power than they already have? Why should we? Hate crime laws give groups rights. Minorities segregate themselves into groups Yet they claim that groups cannot even exist. Can't have it both ways. They define themselves as groups to take full advantage of our now collectivist sytem, but when analyzed as a group they say the group doesn't exist. Bottom line- they are groups and groups cannot have rights. When groups have rights and our full set of indiv rights is stripped from us, it leaves us vulnerable to tyranny from groups and the govt.
[Comment Pulled]
I read that earlier today, awesome article.
We should thank the Nazis for giving us all those stark, frightening images. How else we gonna learn not to act like that? On the other hand, monkey see...
After reading the thread, I see my last comments were a little off topic. The initial attempt was to change the content here, by censorhip. That was still on my mind, being a very important matter to me.
His righteous indignation is well deserved, but he could have left out this part.: "Having a President on the payroll of the family of the man who killed 3,000 plus Americans on September 11, 2001, raises a very real concern that Bush’s illegal and immoral actions are a lot more than just politics as usual."
The future is so bright I got to wear shades.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestIt worked out wonderfully for Retard Central (FU), it's for the good of the forum, don'tcha know?
#145. To: christine, Freedom William (#135)
Freedom William: They've already decided. They don't want to be burdened with the added expense and onerous task of sub-categorizing content. They've already stated that sub-categorizing will open up a new set (and sub- set) of arguments over what category the content or post should be placed in. End of discussion, huh?
Christine: So far, the concensus is that further categorization is not desired and that this has the potential to create more dissention and discord in the forum.
#146. To: Starwind, christine, Zipporah, All, *Pinguinite Software* (#63)
As it is, the bozo filter does not filter articles on the "Latest" menu, the latest comments page, the headlines page, and doesn't even filter pings from bozo'd posters.
#147. To: Jethro Tull (#143)
#148. To: Esso (#140)
I would suggest that posters that don't like the content of the forum go ahead and opus and call us all anti-Semites, and just get it over with. Better yet, they could opus from the country, putting their mouth where my tax dollars are being sent to, and move to Israel.
The IF crowd hates clean and non-parsed speech, they flee truth like a vampire does a Cross.
#149. To: Jethro Tull (#143)
#150. To: Neil McIver (#146)
#151. To: christine (#13)
Debate on 4um censorship--Weigh In!
#152. To: Freedom William (#150)
all so some overly sensitive soul won't become offended and suffer post-traumatic stress disorder from having laid eyes on some text.
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#153. To: christine, All (#111)
The Roman Emperors American people could have any single bureaucrat killed removed from office, but ultimately they required the cooperation of the bureaucracy in order to rule.
#154. To: Freedom William (#147)
#155. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#151)
#156. To: Freedom William (#150)
Good grief, Neil. This filtering and categorizing stuff is complex, cumbersome, and expensive -- all so some overly sensitive soul won't become offended and suffer post-traumatic stress disorder from having laid eyes on some text.
#157. To: Jethro Tull (#137)
Really? It seems a large part of your life is looking over the shoulders of posters, observing what you deem acceptable content. It's stuff for the Blue hair crowd.
#158. To: Jhoffa_, unamused, Ross (#149)
The Zio-Censors can count the havoc they caused on FU as, at least, a partial victory..
#159. To: christine (#155)
#160. To: crack monkey (#138)
#161. To: Neil McIver (#146)
One difficult programming decision is what should happen if you have a category filtered, but then get pinged from a non-bozo in that category. Should you not see the ping because it's in a filtered category, or should the ping from the non-bozo take precedence over the category filter? And again what if a ping list you're subscribed to is used on a filtered category? Should the subscription ping or the category filter take precedence?
#162. To: Neil McIver, Starwind, All (#156)
Perhaps, but at minimum, the existing filters should function as advertised. No debating that.
#163. To: Flintlock (#152)
Kind of like what she went through when she found out there was no Santa Clause
#164. To: Jethro Tull (#154)
Ha! A new career, eh? I’m actually working on one presently. It’s called vagabond.
#165. To: Freedom William, Starwind (#82)
#166. To: Jethro Tull (#158)
The place has a mole in a key position.
#167. To: mirage (#165)
#168. To: Tauzero (#107)
But even Jesse Jackson was relieved once to find that the sounds of footsteps behind him were not being made by a group of young black men.
#169. To: Phaedrus (#157)
Post your petty, snide remarks to someone who's interested.
#170. To: Jethro Tull (#169)
Ahhhh..... I see I struck bone. Ouch!
#171. To: Freedom William (#105)
Most research is accomplished by measuring some variable and then comparing the values of the group means (averages).
#172. To: christine (#111)
preferences and awareness of DIFFERENCES is key to survival
#173. To: purpleman (#171)
#174. To: Neil McIver (#146)
I am seeing that bozo'd posters are never displayed on the LC page so I don't understand the last item.
#175. To: mirage (#165)
The *proper* response to "hate speech" is additional speech, engaging the person and winning a debate.
#176. To: Freedom William (#129)
End of discussion, huh?
#177. To: Phaedrus (#160)
We're done now, crack, thanks.
#178. To: crack monkey (#177)
#179. To: christine (#155)
#180. To: Neil McIver, christine, lodwick, Jethro Tull (#175)
#181. To: Willie Green (#180)
#182. To: christine (#162)
#183. To: Willie Green, ALL Awsome article (#180)
Thanks Willie. I couldn't have said it better. We have to invite this guy over.
#184. To: Jethro Tull (#183)
Thanks Willie. I couldn't have said it better. We have to invite this guy over.
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