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Title: Debate on 4um censorship--Weigh In!
Source: n/a
URL Source: http://n/a
Published: Jul 24, 2005
Author: Christine and Zipporah
Post Date: 2005-07-24 23:28:38 by christine
Keywords: censorship--Weigh, Debate
Views: 3520
Comments: 295

Because concerns by several members have been posted to us, both publically and privately, about the free speech "allowed" on 4um, we have decided to create three new categories. The primary hot button is that of the Israel/Jewish/Zionism topic. We do not wish to censor and we also do not wish to offend (in reality, unavoidable, as what offends one may not offend another) anyone. With the availability of specific categories, each individual may eliminate an entire subject that he/she wishes not to view via his/her personal 'setup' page.

In the spirit of cooperation, and with the goal of working toward a satisfying and pleasant forum experience for everyone, we'd like to request that you avail yourselves of these specific category selections when posting your articles. The three new categories are:

Israel/Zionism

All is Vanity

Author! Author!

We hope that you all feel that this is an equitable solution.

Christine and Zipporah

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

Perhaps, but at minimum, the existing filters should function as advertised. No debating that.

I think this "debate" then has been very productive.

christine  posted on  2005-07-26   13:40:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Kind of like what she went through when she found out there was no Santa Clause

Same thing.

Freedom William  posted on  2005-07-26   13:42:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ha! A new career, eh? I’m actually working on one presently. It’s called vagabond.

I've heard you're already a vagabond virtuoso.

Freedom William  posted on  2005-07-26   13:44:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The *proper* response to "hate speech" is additional speech, engaging the person and winning a debate.

A loser's tactic is censorship.

Of course, there is always the "If you don't like what you're reading, don't read it."

The First Amendment very nearly requires "hate speech" to be responded to with additional speech exposing the "hate speech" for what it is and challenging its author/speaker to defend it.

Its a nicely self-policing system when used as originally intended.

mirage  posted on  2005-07-26   13:45:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The place has a mole in a key position.

There's been allot of speculation about that..

I know I saw something from a PM show up elsewhere, once.

I like Bret, personally.. and I like FU.

But to say it doesn't have some very real issues that remain completely unaddressed would be dishonest.

"Working Three Jobs is: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic... Get any sleep?" (Laughs) ~ George W Bush

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-07-26   13:48:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thank you.....and very well stated.

Freedom William  posted on  2005-07-26   13:51:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But even Jesse Jackson was relieved once to find that the sounds of footsteps behind him were not being made by a group of young black men.

I would too, but those are people that I have zero interaction with and it would be in DC where there are clear crime statistics pointing to more risk. It's not completely analytical obviously it's partly visceral, but I try to be more analytical once I have some interaction.

On an anonymous crime-free forum it does not matter one iota what the race of any poster is. Unless they wear it on their sleeve.

I choose to drink very little.

If you told me you were Irish and didn't mention the alcoholic disposition of that race, I would assume nothing. But maybe that's just inexperience. Or too much experience, my GF died an alcoholic and my dad was borderline, but I drink in a few social situations without any problem.

(If you see flies at the entrance to the burrow, the ground hog is probably inside)

purpleman  posted on  2005-07-26   13:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Post your petty, snide remarks to someone who's interested.

Ahhhh..... I see I struck bone. Ouch!

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-07-26   13:54:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ahhhh..... I see I struck bone. Ouch!

Personal attacks will not go endlessly unanswered, Jethro. Play nice.

Phaedrus  posted on  2005-07-26   13:56:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Most research is accomplished by measuring some variable and then comparing the values of the group means (averages).

I would just add that standard deviations are important as well. Some group with a lower IQ (for example) may have a greater range of IQ's than the overall population. Add in cultural tendencies and physical differences and you end up with musical geniuses or perhaps even basketball geniuses.

(If you see flies at the entrance to the burrow, the ground hog is probably inside)

purpleman  posted on  2005-07-26   13:58:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

preferences and awareness of DIFFERENCES is key to survival

Sounds very Randian.

(If you see flies at the entrance to the burrow, the ground hog is probably inside)

purpleman  posted on  2005-07-26   14:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Indeed. A standard deviation is one of the primary statistical standards used to compare (analyze) group mean differences.

Freedom William  posted on  2005-07-26   14:06:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I am seeing that bozo'd posters are never displayed on the LC page so I don't understand the last item.

Yes, the bozo'd comment/article post is not listed on the LC page, but if one clicks on the article itself (via either the "Latest menu" or headlines page, or a ping, the body of the anchor article itself even though posted by a bozo'd poster, appears in full text (unlike a bozo'd comment). The anchor article body is not filtered the same as a comment.

And a post (unsolicited and undesired) from a bozo'd poster to [me] (I'm in the recipient list) shows up in my search of posts "to [me]".

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2005-07-26   14:09:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The *proper* response to "hate speech" is additional speech, engaging the person and winning a debate.

A loser's tactic is censorship.

Of course, there is always the "If you don't like what you're reading, don't read it."

The First Amendment very nearly requires "hate speech" to be responded to with additional speech exposing the "hate speech" for what it is and challenging its author/speaker to defend it.

Its a nicely self-policing system when used as originally intended.

Ideally, in a perfect world, yes. But we don't live in a perfect world. Though the ideals shouldn't be abandoned and should be targeted, there are practical limits to what any of us are willing to listen too, myself included.

Pinguinite for Pinguins

Neil McIver  posted on  2005-07-26   14:09:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

End of discussion, huh?

The censors are always on the attack. An equitable solution was provided, and a day later it's not enough. The scary part is, many groups like the ADL won't stop at Christine censoring the forum. Only tight government control with an Orwellian enforcement arm will suffice. Then christine will have to answer to govt investigators. That is where censorship leads. And Americans will be comfortable about it, because citizens were censoring for years on their own because of coercion.

Not 1 inch should be given on this issue. These censors assign rights to spec int minority groups, while removing them from individuals. Talk about a 1-2 punch, eh? Those groups gain power and we lose it, all in one move.

Bayonne  posted on  2005-07-26   14:39:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

We're done now, crack, thanks.

Yawn.

The same innane respose I get everytime I point out something that you would prefer to keep under wraps.

You're starting to sound like a broken record.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-07-26   14:40:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

you are right,it's the net and if someone does not want to be offended, then skip over the content that offends you. You can't escape the forum insult factor here anyway. If I wanted to, I could ping "Shitwind" or "Buttcrack Monkey" (no insult intended). Whats to prevent you from seeing that? A ping filter? How? You would have to know in advance what someone was going to post.

"that meatball?" "Meatball with gravy, Val!"

mars attack  posted on  2005-07-26   15:02:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The founders gave each individual a robust set of individual rights that protect us from tyranny. Why do the censors want to remove some of these after they have worked for hundreds of years? Think about the magnitude of this change. It will represent the end of freedom when enforced by the fed govt (hate crime laws).

All to benefit special interest groups- especially Jewish groups. So, groups are being given rights that make sure indivs can't speak about them in certain negative terms. The indiv loses his 1st amendment rights, for what? To give groups deemed special by the govt more power than they already have? Why should we?

Hate crime laws give groups rights. Minorities segregate themselves into groups

Yet they claim that groups cannot even exist.

Can't have it both ways. They define themselves as groups to take full advantage of our now collectivist sytem, but when analyzed as a group they say the group doesn't exist.

Bottom line- they are groups and groups cannot have rights. When groups have rights and our full set of indiv rights is stripped from us, it leaves us vulnerable to tyranny from groups and the govt.

Bayonne  posted on  2005-07-26   15:07:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

[Comment Pulled]

Willie Green  posted on  2005-07-26   15:11:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I read that earlier today, awesome article.

We should thank the Nazis for giving us all those stark, frightening images. How else we gonna learn not to act like that? On the other hand, monkey see...

Dakmar  posted on  2005-07-26   15:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

After reading the thread, I see my last comments were a little off topic.

The initial attempt was to change the content here, by censorhip. That was still on my mind, being a very important matter to me.

Bayonne  posted on  2005-07-26   15:19:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks Willie. I couldn't have said it better. We have to invite this guy over.

Bush is Not an American

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-07-26   15:20:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks Willie. I couldn't have said it better. We have to invite this guy over.

His righteous indignation is well deserved, but he could have left out this part.:

"Having a President on the payroll of the family of the man who killed 3,000 plus Americans on September 11, 2001, raises a very real concern that Bush’s illegal and immoral actions are a lot more than just politics as usual."

The future is so bright I got to wear shades.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-07-26   15:27:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I read that earlier today, awesome article.

I didn't see it posted anywhere,
and I gotta admit, I'm hesitant to post it myself.
I generally have a favorable impression of Doug Thompson from "back in the good old days".
But this is by far the most invective rant I've seen him author.

Willie Green  posted on  2005-07-26   15:28:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Agreed. The authoritarians almost always win, ultimately, because it is in their nature to incessantly impose their will on the will of others. The libertarian-types who subscribe to a live-n-let-live philosophy, by their very nature, are disinclined to join groups or collectivist organizations. As such, individually they lose out to the larger groups of authoritarians who must impose their will. There is something to the fact that the masses of people throughout history have never known real freedom.

Freedom William  posted on  2005-07-26   15:29:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#105 is keeper, Bill. Kudos.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-07-26   15:31:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The future is so bright I got to wear shades.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-07-26   15:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

let me see if I can help you here.

the appropriate response is,

"if you don't agree, go away"

see, tolerance is often used as a tool by those who want exactly the opposite....the more religious they are, the more likely this is to be true, as it is a function of tribalism, which is related to a very naieve, immature, and dangerous mindset to freedom.

so, if they don't like it, they DON'T FUCKING HAVE TO LIKE IT.

people have the RIGHT to NOT LIKE YOU for any damn reason they want.

get the fuck over it, grow up, and shut the hell up.

christ on a bicycle, already.

Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-07-26   15:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But this is by far the most invective rant I've seen him author.

Thompson is displaying righteous anger (he HATES what the elites are doing to America). IMO, hate is justified when we're about to have CAFTA shoved up our back sides, not to mention our continued investment in Iraqi nation building. It’s economic treason. We've seen the result of NAFTA/GATT/Viet Nam and now this beast?

It's pitchfork time.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-07-26   15:37:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

so, if they don't like it, they DON'T FUCKING HAVE TO LIKE IT.

people have the RIGHT to NOT LIKE YOU for any damn reason they want.

get the fuck over it, grow up, and shut the hell up.

Bravo, I must commend you on your debating style it is....ummm... par excellence.

It's truly hard to believe after having read your response why anyone would have the attitude "if you don't agree, go away".

Simply unfathomable. ;)

The future is so bright I got to wear shades.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-07-26   15:38:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Bush, in my opinion, is criminally insane, a pill-popping dry drunk whose erratic behavior and reckless actions threaten world peace and the future of this nation far more than any Islam-spouting religious fanatic. He is an enemy of the state, a mood-swinging despot who threatens the very freedoms that form the foundation for this country. He has created a police state where basic American freedoms have vanished under an politically-exaggerated threat to national scrutiny, milked the human tragedy of 9/11 for his personal agenda and ripped the Constitution to shreds through the USA Patriot Act, a rights- robbing piece of legislation put together by his former attorney general, the bible-thumping John Ashcroft, an inept former Senator who couldn’t even win an election against a dead man.

The man read my mind.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-07-26   15:40:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

there is no debate here.

it's simple...if you don't like something, ignore it or go away.

demanding everyone else conform to your dictates is infantile and absurd.

the very concept itself is the essence of intolerance.

so, when I say these people are very juvenile and naieve in their thinking, it's because they behave as teenagers do, thinking the world should bend to their whims because the desires are THEIRS.

irony is lost on the emotionalist lackwit political knave.

what they advocate, freedom, and what they do, demand it be restricted, are completely contradictory.

they are walking madmen, literally...functionally insane, with some sort of sociopathic schism between belief and reality.

the problem you people run into is thinking these nutcases deserve debate on principles like freedom.

what the fuck?

freedom is freedom.

take it or leave it.

sweet babbling jesus, these morons can't even deal with freedom in cyberspace...what the hell does anyone think they vote for?

this country is fucked large.

in a year I will be posting from South America.

Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-07-26   15:54:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

IMO, hate is justified when we're about to have CAFTA shoved up our back sides,

Well I'm with you on that one...

not to mention our continued investment in Iraqi nation

I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you there.
"Lesser of two evils" excuse. Ain't no way I can side with the dope-smokin', draft-dodgin', antiwar hippie 'Rats...
Saddam was a malicious SOB who deserves to die, no matter what reason Dubya uses.

Willie Green  posted on  2005-07-26   16:06:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Saddam was a malicious SOB who deserves to die, no matter what reason Dubya uses.

Even if it means the extermination of a few hundred thousand innocent Iraqis along the way?

"A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." ~~Lysander Spooner

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-07-26   16:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Don't you find it rather amazing that people come to a forum and then demand that things go their way. Now I don't tell the Jewish people that own ABC,CBS and MTV and Fox News,etc. and Wolf Blitzer what to say or what topics to cover I wouldn't think of such a thing, yet they come over here and want to dictate to us what we may or may not have on this patriots' forum. That is chutzpah

Washington Report

1776  posted on  2005-07-26   16:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And it's not like they posted on ANY of the threads discussing Israeli issues. They seemingly couldn't care less about the issues, then all of a sudden, they want all speech they deem hate speech, censored. And they press the issue for days. Whats up with that

On a patriot forum, they're calling for the removal of individual rights from posters and the equivalent of giving rights to a group commonly known as Jews, while at the same time arguing that the Jewish group they are representing doesn't even exist!

Bayonne  posted on  2005-07-26   16:24:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Even if it means the extermination of a few hundred thousand innocent Iraqis along the way?

The "insurgent" murderers and thugs who carried out Saddam's dirtywork are not "innocent".

Willie Green  posted on  2005-07-26   16:27:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The "insurgent" murderers and thugs who carried out Saddam's dirtywork are not "innocent".

Oh, I see. You're one of those "If we killed 'em they musta been bad guys" kind of people. So be it if that helps you sleep after quenching the blood lust.

"A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." ~~Lysander Spooner

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-07-26   16:31:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're one of those "If we killed 'em they musta been bad guys" kind of people. So be it if that helps you sleep after quenching the blood lust.

That must make you one of those delusional "the American military deliberately targets women and children" fairys.

I sleep well knowing that the men and women who serve in our military have much higher ethical standards than you.

Willie Green  posted on  2005-07-26   16:38:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It seems that the primary issue here isn't "seeing something offensive". I have gotten the impression that while that's spoken, the real issue is the pull between having a likeable forum but being scared of potentially being associated now or in the future with what on a wider basis would end up being know as "THAT site". I.e. at some point, member X is working a major contract, running for office, on the school board, etc... and someone else comes along and, cherry picking topics, states that X is a member at this place where [insert current favorite un PC topic here] is posted.

Some folks here may be in a relatively public profession, or want to get into something like politics. It's a legitimate fear, but one that one can easily defend ones self against by making their position known.

Wade into battle. Mow that line of reasoning down. Or meerly state in a single post that you don't agree with it and believe it's bullshit. Sure, you might have to put up with some dumbass making stupid comments at times, but your on the record and no one can claim you think or feel otherwise.

Hey, look at that cute little critter...Yaaaa! GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!!!!

Axenolith  posted on  2005-07-26   16:43:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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