[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

You’ve Never Seen THIS Side Of Donald Trump

President Donald Trump Nominates Former Florida Rep. Dr. Dave Weldon as CDC Director

Joe Rogan Tells Josh Brolin His Recent Bell’s Palsy Diagnosis Could Be Linked to mRNA Vaccine

President-elect Donald Trump Nominates Brooke Rollins as Secretary of Agriculture

Trump Taps COVID-Contrarian, Staunch Public Health Critic Makary For FDA

F-35's Cooling Crisis: Design Flaws Fuel $2 Trillion Dilemma For Pentagon

Joe Rogan on Tucker Carlson and Ukraine Aid

Joe Rogan on 62 year-old soldier with one arm, one eye

Jordan Peterson On China's Social Credit Controls

Senator Kennedy Exposes Bad Jusge

Jewish Land Grab

Trump Taps Dr. Marty Makary, Fierce Opponent of COVID Vaccine Mandates, as New FDA Commissioner

Recovering J6 Prisoner James Grant, Tells-All About Bidens J6 Torture Chamber, Needs Immediate Help After Release

AOC: Keeping Men Out Of Womens Bathrooms Is Endangering Women

What Donald Trump Has Said About JFK's Assassination

Horse steals content from Sara Fischer and Sophia Cai and pretends he is the author

Horse steals content from Jonas E. Alexis and claims it as his own.

Trump expected to shake up White House briefing room

Ukrainians have stolen up to half of US aid ex-Polish deputy minister

Gaza doctor raped, tortured to death in Israeli custody, new report reveals

German Lutheran Church Bans AfD Members From Committees, Calls Party 'Anti-Human'

Berlin Teachers Sound Alarm Over Educational Crisis Caused By Multiculturalism

Trump Hosts Secret Global Peace Summit at Mar-a-Lago!

Heat Is Radiating From A Huge Mass Under The Moon

Elon Musk Delivers a Telling Response When Donald Trump Jr. Suggests

FBI recovers funds for victims of scammed banker

Mark Felton: Can Russia Attack Britain?

Notre Dame Apologizes After Telling Hockey Fans Not To Wear Green, Shamrocks, 'Fighting Irish'

Dear Horse, which one of your posts has the Deep State so spun up that's causing 4um to run slow?

Bomb Cyclone Pacific Northwest


Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Revelation 13:4
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 6, 2008
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2008-12-06 10:11:49 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1118
Comments: 81

Revelation 13:4

… At the same time, the Great War (World War I), as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion keep the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esme Wingfield-Stratford wrote; “it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of (their) overmastering unity and common trusteeship.” As events turned out, they did. In 1917, the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.

The world after the war was vastly different. Satan’s earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.

Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes; “The collapse of the old order (caused by the first world war) was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence.” Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the year 2005, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has “followed the wild beast with admiration.”

Mankind has even gone beyond admiring the wild beast, as John next states: “And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: ‘Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?’” (Revelation 13:4) While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world and refused to participate in the politics of that day. John later wrote of true Christians: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8; John 6:15; 14:30) Satan delegates power to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of goodly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship.

In what sense? In the sense of putting love of country ahead of love of God. Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong,” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship Jehovah God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon – the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael – his name meaning “Who Is Like God?” – as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven. – Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19:21. ....

Click for Full Text! Subscribe to *Bible facts*

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 30.

#4. To: richard9151 (#0)

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this;

Satan is bound...his only power now is to deceive [Rev. 20:7-10] which he's doing a pretty good job of.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...?b=Mat&c=12&v=29&t=KJV#29

Rapture & Premillennialism Refuted.....Satan bound by Jesus 2000 years ago! www.bible.ca/pre-rev20-satan-bound.htm

...been meaning to say something about that premillennialism stuff.....it's worse than the rapture hoax to keep Christian America down, and Judeo-"British-Israel" [ http://www.asis.com/users/stag/royalty.html / http://www.asis.com/users/stag/uspres.html ] with its grubby paws around our neck. We are living in Christ's kingdom NOW....there is no "1,000 year reign [reich]" for the Judeo-Brits to rule over us. [There were only 400 years of captivity spelled out in Genesis 15:13-14/Gal. 3:16-29]. The scepter [right to rule] passed to Christ [Lion of the tribe of Judah] on His first arrival. It was even spelled out in the sky:

www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=77119

Someone was kind enough to send me a link to Chapter 3 of the Union Jack.... [ http://www.congregator.net/topical/union-jack-chapter-3.htm ]. It spells out the great deception, and conspiracy against America [Psalm 2]....my only complaint is that Jesus didn't just say "My kingdom is not of this world." What He actually said is "My kingdom is not NOW of this "world" ["kosmos" - constitution, government, ORDER of things] ....speaking BEFORE His crucifixion and resurrection....and speaking in the place where it was told the Jews: The kingdom will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof....let no fruit grow on thee FOREVER. That nation/kingdom, which everybody likes to hate, is America [that does not include Britain's partner-in-crime, the US Government; Ezekiel 17:7-10]. Jesus is the KING of ISRAEL, the nation that was founded in His name with a cross, and a dedication to spreading the gospel. That is all contrary to the wishes of the City of London, because the truth would make us free, and they don't want us to be free. They like having us as slaves, slurping the fruits of our labors, and having us fight their wars of conquest. They have raised up the staff against us, after the manner of Egypt, to keep us enslaved. I keep wondering when God is going to raise up that scourge against them, like He has promised. Maybe when Christians turn back to Him, and not to the one who is smiting them.

The US is still a [Judeo] British Colony, extorting taxes for "The Crown":

"...When Cornwallis surrendered to Washington he surrendered the battle, not the war. Read the Article of Capitulation signed by Cornwallis at Yorktown (footnote 3)

Jonathan Williams recorded in his book, Legions of Satan, 1781, that Cornwallis revealed to Washington during his surrender that "a holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will be supposedly the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be loyal subjects to the Crown."...."in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire."

All the Treaty did was remove the United States as a liability and obligation of the king. He no longer had to ship material and money to support his subjects and colonies. At the same time he retained financial subjection through debt owed after the Treaty, which is still being created today; millions of dollars a day. And his heirs and successors are still reaping the benefit of the kings original venture. ....."

http://www.civil-liberties.com/books/colony2.html /Genesis 15:13-14/Galatians 3:16....29

Without addressing the rest of your article:

At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven.

I say Amen to that.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...?b=Isa&c=14&v=25&t=KJV#25 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/s...cfm?b=Isa&c=14&v=25&t=KJV

Eze 39:4 Thou [ Gog and Magog http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=60690 ] shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel [America], thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eze&c=39&v=4

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-06   13:34:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#4)

The US is still a [Judeo] British Colony, extorting taxes for "The Crown":

Uh, I know you do not like to read, but that is what is pointed out in the post. As to the other, Satan was not bound 2,000 years ago, and to say so ignores what the world has become, and what is happening to the world today.

You are claiming that Jesus Christ rules over, and permits, all of the wars of today?! Amazing. And, amazing how little you and yours understand Revelation. Which, I might add, was written sometime in the 90s C.E. Well after the death of Jesus Christ.

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says the apostle John. (1 John 5:19)

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   15:03:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: richard9151 (#9)

amazing how little you and yours understand Revelation. Which, I might add, was written sometime in the 90s C.E. Well after the death of Jesus Christ.

'sez you.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...ev&c=3&v=11&t=KJV#conc/11

quickly = 1) quickly, speedily (without delay)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/l...n.cfm?Strongs=G5035&t=KJV

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory......

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.......

The Wars Of The Jews; or The History of the Destruction Of Jerusalem http://www.preteristarchive.com/...timeline_theological.html

You are claiming that Jesus Christ rules over, and permits, all of the wars of today?

as you yourself said:

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

furthermore:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isa 60:12 — For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

ETC.:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/s...cfm?b=Isa&c=60&v=12&t=KJV

Satan was not bound 2,000 years ago, and to say so ignores what the world has become, and what is happening to the world today.

To say he wasn't, is to call Jesus a liar....par for the JW course.

Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jhn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The world is evil because the devil has been let out to deceive the nations to bring them to the final battle:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Isa 14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

www.blueletterbible.org/B...?b=Isa&c=14&v=26&t=KJV#26

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-06   17:07:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#16)

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

And that is true, just as it is true for EACH GENERATION, as each generation has only a very, very short time on this earth to learn The Way and change their attitudes. CAUSE THEY DIE!!!!! And turn to dust in the ground!!

And once they die, they no longer have the opportunity to change and accept the Salvation of Jehovah.

This is really very simple. Revelation was written nearly 70 years AFTER Jesus Christ died, and more than 20 years AFTER JERUSALEM WAS DESTROYED. It is impossible that it refers to the current events of that time.

This is really not that hard to grasp, if you listen to the actual words of the Bible, rather to the non-sense of men.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   17:19:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: richard9151 (#19)

This is really very simple. Revelation was written nearly 70 years AFTER Jesus Christ died, and more than 20 years AFTER JERUSALEM WAS DESTROYED. It is impossible that it refers to the current events of that time.

citation please....see the Jewish Wars....those things WERE fulfilled.

or...

see DAYS OF VENGEANCE:

www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/2226_47e.htm

David Chilton backs it up, chapter by chapter, verse by verse.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-06   17:26:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#20)

This is really very simple. Revelation was written nearly 70 years AFTER Jesus Christ died, and more than 20 years AFTER JERUSALEM WAS DESTROYED. It is impossible that it refers to the current events of that time.

citation please

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Patmos

Writing Completed: c. 96 C.E.

David Chilton backs it up, chapter by chapter, verse by verse.

I could care less, but I do not see how.

Babylon the Great

Definition: The world empire of false religion, embracing all religions whose teachings and practices do not conform to the true worship of Jehovah, the only true God. Following the Flood of Noah’s day, false religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon). (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole.

What evidence points to the identity of Babylon the Great, referred to in Revelation?

It could not be the ancient city of Babylon. Revelation was written at the end of the first century C.E. and describes events that would reach down to our day. The Encyclopedia Americana says: “The city [Babylon] was taken by the Persians under Cyrus the Great in 539 B.C. Later Alexander the Great planned to make Babylon the capital of his eastern empire, but after his death Babylon gradually lost importance.” (1956, Vol. III, p. 7) Today the city is an uninhabited ruin.

In the symbolism of Revelation, Babylon the Great is referred to as a “great city,” a “kingdom” that rules other kings. (Rev. 17:18) Like a city, it would have many organizations within it; and like a kingdom that includes other kings in its domain, it would be international in scope. It is described as having relations with political rulers and contributing much to the wealth of men in commerce, while itself being a third element that “has become a dwelling place of demons” and a persecutor of “prophets and of holy ones.”—Rev. 18:2, 9-17, 24.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   17:33:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: richard9151 (#22)

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Patmos

Writing Completed: c. 96 C.E.

Says who???

Babylon the Great

Definition: The world empire of false religion, embracing all religions whose teachings and practices do not conform to the true worship of Jehovah, the only true God. Following the Flood of Noah’s day, false religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon). (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands.

definition fits the pharisees.

Jhn 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

www.blueletterbible.org/s....cfm?b=Jhn&c=8&v=19&t=KJV

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-06   17:57:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#25)

Says who???

Let's take this a step further, shall we? You might want to read all of the page, as it is quite revealing.

http://www.biblestudying.net/rev-date.html

Preterists' convenient re-interpretation of Irenaeus' statement betrays their bias in the matter. Furthermore their insistence and confidence in this unwarranted supposition is highly suspicious, nonobjective, and quite unscholarly to say the least.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that the Preterist interpretation of Irenaeus' statement is correct. Let's assume that it is "John" and not "the apocalyptic vision" that was seen near the end of Domitian's reign. Is the scenario that they are depicting a reasonable one? Not at all. Let's take a look at the logical outcome of their interpretation. A Preterist view unequivocally upholds the following.

1. John was a witness and disciple of Jesus during Jesus' life on earth.

2. John understood that Jesus would return in his lifetime from what Jesus taught him regarding his return. This information he effectively taught to the Church of his day.

3. God used John to record and instruct the church with regard to the teachings of Jesus' through his own ministry and through the writing of one Gospel, and three epistles.

4. God revealed to John a vision of Christ's return in the 60's AD.

5. John witnessed and lived through the fulfillment of Jesus' revelation, prophecy and teaching regarding his return when these events occurred in 70 AD.

(Here's where we see the breakdown in plausibility.)

6. John lived for another 25 years or so after his "apocalyptic vision" was fulfilled and Jesus returned in 70 AD.

7. During these 25 years after Jesus return, John (the writer of one Gospel, three epistles, and recorder of "the apocalyptic vision" describing Jesus' return), did not manage to successfully communicate the fact that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled 25 years earlier in 70 AD.

8. (By extension) Either God chose not to use John to inform the Church that Jesus' second coming and the apocalyptic vision were fulfilled in 70 AD, or God did chose to use John in this way but for one reason or another John did not accomplish that mission.

Based on the above Preterist scenario and the fact that all orthodox church writers and scholars for at least two centuries after 70 AD upheld a Futurist view of eschatology, one of the four highly unreasonable conclusions must be drawn regarding John, the church, and Jesus' return in 70 AD.

1. John DID NOT understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD and so did not teach this to the church.

2. John DID understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD yet chose not to teach this to the church.

3. John DID understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD and attempted to teach this to the church, but was completely ineffective and wholly failed in this task.

4. John did understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD and effectively taught this to the church only to have his teaching on the matter universally rejected by the church.

One last item to remember on this point: we have no record of either John or any other member of the early Church writing to instruct the Church that the events prophesied in the New Testament surrounding the return of Christ ever came to pass in 70 AD. If those events did come to pass, then the Church was left with no instruction regarding that fact.

In summary, we conclude that Preterists have failed to demonstrate an objective, reasonable basis for rejecting the traditional interpretation of Irenaeus' statement. And therefore, Preterists have failed to make the case for a pre-90's dating of Revelation. This is based on two points, which we have argued thoroughly above. One, the traditional intepretation of Irenaeus' statement and the traditional dating of Revelation are inherently more reasonable, intuitive, and simple from a grammatical standpoint. Two, the unavoidable, logical extensions of the Preterist view on this matter inevitably lead to an absurd understanding of how the early Church arrived at a Futurist doctrine.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:47:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 30.

#60. To: richard9151 (#30) (Edited)

One last item to remember on this point: we have no record of either John or any other member of the early Church writing to instruct the Church that the events prophesied in the New Testament surrounding the return of Christ ever came to pass in 70 AD. If those events did come to pass, then the Church was left with no instruction regarding that fact.

I forgot about this post...I had an errand to run and then went to bed. I see it's grown quite a bit since then. I haven't read all the responses, but this caught my eye since it was bolded.

A possible reason for that is that all members of the early church had either been killed, or left when they saw the city was surrounded by armies, as they had been instructed by Jesus to do, and they didn't see what happened. The way I understand it, they went into hiding. It IS recorded that no Christians were killed in the destruction of Jerusalem.

It appears that Jesus told the disciples that they all would die before He came back in judgment, except that at least one would perhaps live a little longer than the others. Perhaps that was John the revelator? I don't know.

Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jhn 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

Jhn 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]?

Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Jhn 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?

Jhn 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=21&v=23#23

Maybe he died, maybe he was raptured :)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...m?b=1Th&c=4&v=15&t=KJV#15

[at any rate, it doesn't seem anyone was around to write a postscript....or no Christians, that is...Josephus, a Pharisee, wrote plenty. http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/ http://www.preteristarchive.com/...timeline_theological.html ]

I'll try to get back to this. more errands to do.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-07 19:33:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 30.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]