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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Revelation 13:4
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 6, 2008
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2008-12-06 10:11:49 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1142
Comments: 81

Revelation 13:4

… At the same time, the Great War (World War I), as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion keep the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esme Wingfield-Stratford wrote; “it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of (their) overmastering unity and common trusteeship.” As events turned out, they did. In 1917, the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.

The world after the war was vastly different. Satan’s earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.

Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes; “The collapse of the old order (caused by the first world war) was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence.” Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the year 2005, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has “followed the wild beast with admiration.”

Mankind has even gone beyond admiring the wild beast, as John next states: “And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: ‘Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?’” (Revelation 13:4) While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world and refused to participate in the politics of that day. John later wrote of true Christians: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8; John 6:15; 14:30) Satan delegates power to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of goodly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship.

In what sense? In the sense of putting love of country ahead of love of God. Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong,” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship Jehovah God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon – the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael – his name meaning “Who Is Like God?” – as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven. – Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19:21. ....

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#26. To: Turtle (#24)

Martin Luther referred to the world as "the Devil' playground,"

Martin Luther was right, of course. As to your hollow tree, well, if it keeps your singing to a low enough key, fine, if not....................

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:08:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: richard9151 (#21)

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

All means all, except to theologians that try and explain away scriptures into fitting their personal doctrines.

God is judging His house now.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The rest get judged later.

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

Who, according to NT scripture, was the "worst sinner"? How long did it take to convert him?

And do you really think you are better than any of them? If I recall correctly, there are a few scriptures that have some things to say about pride. Break 1 law, you are guilty of all.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   18:23:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#25)

Says who???

Many, many people and groups;

http://revelationexplained.com/pg.basictruths6.html

Revelation 1:19 gives a clear scope of the Revelation, stating, "Write the things thou hast seen [past tense], and the things which are [present tense], and the things which shall be hereafter [future tense].

When the Apostle John received the Revelation (approximately A.D. 96), the Gospel Day had already been operating for sixty-three years (since A.D. 33). Therefore, some of these scenes were things that had already taken place, some were taking place as a present-tense reality, and others would take place in other portions of the Gospel Day.

http://www.truthandgrace.com/revelation.htm

Note: Amillennialists proclaim that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed.

Note: Amillennialists avoid the context of Revelation chapter 17 in that "the women" who temporarily controls the kings kills Christians.

Revelation 17:6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Which was the first emperor to persecute Christians? The emperors from Julius Caesar through Claudius never heard of Christians. The first emperor to persecute Christians was Nero to whom Paul appealed his conviction. The five kings who have fallen would be Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. The emperor "who is" (at time Revelation was written) would be Domitian.

Did you get all of that, cause it is very important! Now, from the same source;

Note: Early church fathers gave a late writing of Revelation.

Irenaeous referred to Revelation in a work he wrote near the end of the second century, probably between A.D. 180 and 190. Irenaeus's credibility is enhanced, not only by his important defense of the faith, but also by his claim to be a personal acquaintance of Polycarp, who in turn had known the Apostle John himself. Irenaeus's testimony regarding Revelation is found in book 5 of his famous work Against Heresies. This has been rendered in English as follows: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." Pages 141-142.

I could continue with this for some time, but perhaps the above is enough. Please read the following CAREFULLY.

How could John say, though, that these “slaves” would be shown “things that must shortly take place”? Were not those words spoken more than 1,900 years ago? From the viewpoint of Jehovah, in whose eyes a thousand years are but “as yesterday,” 1,900 years is a short time when compared with the aeons of time that he spent in creating and preparing the earth for human habitation. (Psalm 90:4) The apostle Paul wrote of his own “eager expectation and hope,” for no doubt the reality of his reward seemed close at hand to him. (Philippians 1:20) Today, however, the evidence abounds that all the things foretold will take place on schedule. Never before in history has the very survival of mankind been at stake. Only God has the solution!—Isaiah 45:21.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:26:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: PSUSA (#27)

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus.

The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:31:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#25)

Says who???

Let's take this a step further, shall we? You might want to read all of the page, as it is quite revealing.

http://www.biblestudying.net/rev-date.html

Preterists' convenient re-interpretation of Irenaeus' statement betrays their bias in the matter. Furthermore their insistence and confidence in this unwarranted supposition is highly suspicious, nonobjective, and quite unscholarly to say the least.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that the Preterist interpretation of Irenaeus' statement is correct. Let's assume that it is "John" and not "the apocalyptic vision" that was seen near the end of Domitian's reign. Is the scenario that they are depicting a reasonable one? Not at all. Let's take a look at the logical outcome of their interpretation. A Preterist view unequivocally upholds the following.

1. John was a witness and disciple of Jesus during Jesus' life on earth.

2. John understood that Jesus would return in his lifetime from what Jesus taught him regarding his return. This information he effectively taught to the Church of his day.

3. God used John to record and instruct the church with regard to the teachings of Jesus' through his own ministry and through the writing of one Gospel, and three epistles.

4. God revealed to John a vision of Christ's return in the 60's AD.

5. John witnessed and lived through the fulfillment of Jesus' revelation, prophecy and teaching regarding his return when these events occurred in 70 AD.

(Here's where we see the breakdown in plausibility.)

6. John lived for another 25 years or so after his "apocalyptic vision" was fulfilled and Jesus returned in 70 AD.

7. During these 25 years after Jesus return, John (the writer of one Gospel, three epistles, and recorder of "the apocalyptic vision" describing Jesus' return), did not manage to successfully communicate the fact that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled 25 years earlier in 70 AD.

8. (By extension) Either God chose not to use John to inform the Church that Jesus' second coming and the apocalyptic vision were fulfilled in 70 AD, or God did chose to use John in this way but for one reason or another John did not accomplish that mission.

Based on the above Preterist scenario and the fact that all orthodox church writers and scholars for at least two centuries after 70 AD upheld a Futurist view of eschatology, one of the four highly unreasonable conclusions must be drawn regarding John, the church, and Jesus' return in 70 AD.

1. John DID NOT understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD and so did not teach this to the church.

2. John DID understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD yet chose not to teach this to the church.

3. John DID understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD and attempted to teach this to the church, but was completely ineffective and wholly failed in this task.

4. John did understand that his "apocalyptic vision" had been fulfilled in 70 AD and effectively taught this to the church only to have his teaching on the matter universally rejected by the church.

One last item to remember on this point: we have no record of either John or any other member of the early Church writing to instruct the Church that the events prophesied in the New Testament surrounding the return of Christ ever came to pass in 70 AD. If those events did come to pass, then the Church was left with no instruction regarding that fact.

In summary, we conclude that Preterists have failed to demonstrate an objective, reasonable basis for rejecting the traditional interpretation of Irenaeus' statement. And therefore, Preterists have failed to make the case for a pre-90's dating of Revelation. This is based on two points, which we have argued thoroughly above. One, the traditional intepretation of Irenaeus' statement and the traditional dating of Revelation are inherently more reasonable, intuitive, and simple from a grammatical standpoint. Two, the unavoidable, logical extensions of the Preterist view on this matter inevitably lead to an absurd understanding of how the early Church arrived at a Futurist doctrine.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:47:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: richard9151 (#29)

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

I said he was going to judge them, Hitler, Stalin, popes, you, me, everyone.

You didnt ask a "rhetorical question", you tried to set a trap. You think that by asking about what you think of as extremely evil people will change anything? Who is it that makes the vessels of honor and dishonor? WHo makes peace and creates evil? God does it all, if you believe the scriptures.

Don't you know that we will judge angels? It is our job to judge righteous judgment.

You said:

"And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus. "

If why when or not? Referring to what? Are you referring to "sentencing"? If so, David said that he would rather be judged my God rather than man. And David was no angel.

Then you said:

"The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion. "

You call it picking apart. I call it exposing lies. You seem to be upset that I am not just going along with what you are teaching, and that is not "beneficial" to you.

.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   19:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: PSUSA (#31)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else, and I am not going to play that game. The above is where we were at, and you brought in the other. I then asked you if you thought, etc., a retorical question.

No traps. No nonsense. And, that was my question. Everything else I sent came directly from the official writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and is Scripturally sound.

And then you want to add; and that is not "beneficial" to you.

Are you waiting for me to pass the collection plate? In what way is it beneficial to me? Very, very strange how you add 2 and 2 to get 3.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   19:16:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: richard9151 (#0)

Ya'll keep going. You'll get that needle through the camels' eye yet.

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2008-12-06   19:38:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Rube Goldberg (#33)

Ya'll keep going. You'll get that needle through the camels' eye yet.

That's putting it differently......

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   19:47:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: richard9151 (#32)

You are nothing but a typical debater

and you, my good sir are a typical "baiter".

Richard, you insist upon trolling for a religious argument continuously. Most times I resist responding to your entrapments but I guess today isn't one of those times. Your instructions and preachings might impress a novice bible student, but grate upon the patience of others that may be more studied than "even" yourself, especially when each utterance seems to be spoken as if it were spoken from far above the lowly scum that gather here.

Maybe you're attempting to speak with "authority" as was said about Jesus. Surely, reading His words demonstrates a humility that you would do well to find.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-06   19:56:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: noone222 (#35)

Maybe you're attempting to speak with "authority" as was said about Jesus.

Almost nothing I post in Religion is written by me. I clearly mark that in the author section in each piece.

I am not capable of writing the pieces I post, which are so Scripturally sound that they can not be qustioned, which is why debaters want to pull any discussion off point. And the Scriptually sound part is what causes the problems for those such as yourself who do not bother to do the studies.

I wonder, noone, I open the Bible about 20 plus times a week. I have more than 200 verses marked for special attention in my Bible, and, if I counted in all of my Bibles, that would be more than 400 verses. Do you even open a Bible once a week? Once a month? Do you even have 5 favorite verses?!

I listen to you spout, when we could have a clear discussion about the merits of each verse, but that is apparently beyond you. Perhaps you might learn something, or, you may be able to clear up some of my understandings. But that is beyond your ability, appartently.

You hold the same beliefs as the vast majority of mankind does about the nature of their gods (trinity), the so-called immortal soul, and hell, and can not grasp what is meant about the narrow road which few find and the broad road so well traveled and which leads to destruction.

But that is your choice, noone. You have a free will, and if you think that you are gaining something by spouting off at every preceived evil in the world, then go for it. If you ever wake up, Jehovah is interested in you.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   23:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: noone222 (#35)

you insist upon trolling for a religious argument continuously.

I was going to leave this alone, but what the hey.

I am not interested in arguments. I am interested in learning. Period.

If I am wrong, I want to know it. But you have to prove it. The man who studied the Bible with me spent two years teaching me what the Bible really says, and you think that you are going to change my mind by just making a couple of well traveled and disproved statements?! I DON'T THINK SO!!

Open a Bible, noone, and get with it. Everyone who wants to chew on me makes such silly statements about the Bible, that it is quite obvious that they are simply talking about what they were told. That does not cut it. Period.

Actually, what you sound like is exactly like all of the stupid ones who want to argue that there is no law requiring them to pay the income tax. So, you show them where it is authorized on a contractual basis within the Social Security Enabling Act and they will still go ahead and argue their way right into a prison cause they will not accept proof. The only thing that they want to hear is what they want to hear, just like you. Nothing else matters.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   23:26:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: richard9151, noone222 (#36)

I wonder, noone, I open the Bible about 20 plus times a week. I have more than 200 verses marked for special attention in my Bible, and, if I counted in all of my Bibles, that would be more than 400 verses. Do you even open a Bible once a week? Once a month? Do you even have 5 favorite verses?!

Wheee. Wow. Richard! This is impressive! Where do you want your little merit badge? Is your shoulder OK now?

Seriously, Richard......your 'holier than thou' attitude gains no conversation or debate. With your attitude, I guarantee you would not gain entry into my home--and I do have a friend here who is JW who does come into my home and visit! But Cherie is nothing like you in attitude, or should I say, perceived attitude?

Frankly, richard, you seem to be just another one of those 'we're the only ones going to heaven, yada yada yada' types...those who should never be verbally witnessing regarding Jesus Christ, Jehovah, the Holy Spirit, Gospels, or anything else. You'd do much better just to let people see your actions, i.e., your head spent over YOUR bible, or watchiing you in prayer.

rowdee  posted on  2008-12-07   0:41:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: rowdee, richard9151 (#38)

Seriously, Richard......your 'holier than thou' attitude gains no conversation

Thanks Dee.

Most of the folks that partiipate on this forum are interested in learning and sharing information. It just makes the learning a little hard to take when it's being force fed to ya by an 800 pound angelic gorilla.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   2:05:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: richard9151 (#0)

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this

The Lord God has allowed Satan to operate within the limits or boundries HE set. Satan's domain or control is only over unbelievers.

Colossians 1:

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

2 Timothy 2

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1 John 5

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2008-12-07   2:36:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: richard9151 (#36)

I am interested in learning. Period.

You hold the same beliefs as the vast majority of mankind does about the nature of their gods (trinity), the so-called immortal soul, and hell, and can not grasp what is meant about the narrow road which few find and the broad road so well traveled and which leads to destruction.

Actually, what you sound like is exactly like all of the stupid ones who want to argue that there is no law requiring them to pay the income tax. So, you show them where it is authorized on a contractual basis within the Social Security Enabling Act and they will still go ahead and argue their way right into a prison cause they will not accept proof. The only thing that they want to hear is what they want to hear, just like you. Nothing else matters.

That you're soley interested in "learning", period ... is a lie, period. It's all too obvious that you're most interested in everyone else learning what you decide to teach.

Truly remarkable scholars and spiritually inclined seekers of truth have dedicated entire lifetimes to earnestly study Biblical writings. Many of these have encountered difficulty interpreting the many levels of scriptural revelation. I, myself am persuaded that one lifetime isn't long enough to complete a thorough understanding of scripture. In reading these scholarly commentaries one realizes the sincerity and intensity of their search for understanding without feeling the sting of the masters whip.

With you, the sting of the whip is ever present. It's as if you set the snare, and lay in wait for a victim. Most generally you throw out a topic that suits your fancy or latest exposure to new learning, and then pounce upon anyone that might offer a differing opinion. I have utter disdain for bullies and regard them with contempt.

I have witnessed 1st hand on many occasions interested and inquisitive people get completely turned off to scripture because of the actions and statements made by the hypocrites and tyrants claiming to teach it.

Remove the beam in your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your neighbors seems to me the appropriate message herein. Having a genuine debate or discussion purposed to enlighten doesn't begin with one of the parties talking down to the others involved.

Finally, religious inquisitions have been carried out through tyrannical misapplication of authority based upon particular interpretations of scripture by religious criminals with the assistance of well intentioned zealots. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history can see that this has occurred repeatedly and most would choose to avoid a recurrence. If the religious organizations calling themselves churches have a problem it's of their own making. Their history is filled with hypocrisy and murder, that even the unwashed masses are repulsed by.

I am content to develop my own beliefs through study without feeling the necessity to debate them with you, or attempting to convince others that they should believe as I do. An argument over the trinity is absolute nonsense and a complete waste of time, though it has been debated for millenium by the most ardent students of scripture. They're all dead and the debate continues.

Another poster (Rowdee) made the point that you appear to be one that has decided everyone making determinations diverse from yours is going to hell. I agree with her on this point. I also think this attitude is small minded and reduces the unlimited power of the Creator of this universe to that of the foster parent of a spoiled child that thinks he's "special".

Actually, what you sound like is exactly like all of the stupid ones who want to argue that there is no law requiring them to pay the income tax.

Really ? What if I said that I hold no opinion as regards the secular "law" regarding income taxation but have chosen prison (or worse) in preference to financing the murder of little children ? Peter stated quite plainly that we are to observe God's Laws not man's.

I can be a real asshole, Richard. That's how I'm able to know one when I see one.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   3:37:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: richard9151 (#32)

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else,

OK Richard. What point did I "lose"?

Tell me, so all can see that I lost.

.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   6:57:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: richard9151 (#36)

I am not capable of writing the pieces I post, which are so Scripturally sound that they can not be qustioned,

That is hilarious.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   7:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: noone222 (#41)

THat is all something we can take to heart, including me. You said it well.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   7:07:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: PSUSA (#44)

I wasn't aiming in your direction ! I have done the zealous teacher routine myself and when I realized how little I truly know, which increases with everything more I learn, and when I considered that I might tell someone something that could be in error sending them in the wrong direction or into the abyss, I quit it.

My responses to Richard are created by his know it all attitude and not so subtle presentation. Go and sin no more is a lot different than your ass is going to hell.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   8:42:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rowdee (#38)

You'd do much better just to let people see your actions, i.e., your head spent over YOUR bible, or watchiing you in prayer.

They do.... here. Which is why I have so many friends.... here. And no one watches me pray unless I am asked to say a prayer in the congregation.

Where do you want your little merit badge?

Sorry. Have no interest in merit badges or in glory from men. I just have a real problem with deliberate, self-imposed ignorance.

is nothing like you in attitude, or should I say, perceived attitude?

Perceived attitude is correct, because you have never talked with me, and, never will. After I spend the time that I do on subjects, clearing the extra material out of my head and finding what I consider to be a Truth, I admit that it is hard for me to understand how others can not do the same -- given that there is only one Truth on any subject -- and yes, I consider myself to be right, or, I WOULD CONTINUE TO SEARCH. I also ask for correction, but that does not mean posting a couple of verses on something and thinking that this is going to change my mind.

There are many things in the Bible that are not open to debate, but still people wish to debate them. Why? Because they were TOLD that such and such is how it is, end of subject, and they accept that.

That is a complete denial of personel responsibility, to do the work and the study on your own, and that is stupidity at its worst. Just my opinion, you understand.

I wonder what it is about people in America. There are 168 hours in a week, and they can not spend the time to study the Bible for ONE HOUR A WEEK!! Just to learn what it really says. Amazing. Is the TV really that important!? Which brings us back to your Jehovah's Witness friend. Yes, she is your friend, but I bet you do not study the Bible with her, do you.

And yes, I am much blunter than most Jehovah's Witnesses. I also admit that. I also admit that when I visit with people face to face, I am different, but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects, and with Americans in general, again on most subjects, is ample evidence of why I live elsewhere, is it not?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:23:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: noone222, rowdee (#39)

It just makes the learning a little hard to take when it's being force fed to ya by an 800 pound angelic gorilla.

Please, permit me to repeat what I have said before. No one requires either of you to read a single thing that I post. Period. That pretty much says it all as far as I am concerned. How about you two?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: noone222 (#45)

I wasn't aiming in your direction !

I know that. But it still is true. I knew what you meant, and it applies to me also.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   9:35:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: richard9151 (#46)

After I spend the time that I do on subjects, clearing the extra material out of my head and finding what I consider to be a Truth, I admit that it is hard for me to understand how others can not do the same -- given that there is only one Truth on any subject -- and yes, I consider myself to be right

Well, if the best you can do is latch on to the doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesses after all of that study and clearing of the bullshit in your head ... your condition is hopeless.

Of course, there is grace, but let's don't go there either or we'll have to have an argument over whether grace or works is paramount to salvation. This is another persistent debate without satisfactory conclusions ever drawn.

If you re-read your post to Rowdee and can't see your own arrogance then you're more like a vampire incapable of seeing his own reflection in a mirror.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:41:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: richard9151 (#46)

but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects,

Yes, we are soooooo ignorant on most subjects. LOL!

Richard, you are digging yourself into a pit here. Take a deep breath and walk away from it until you calm down. You are looking like a fool.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   9:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: PSUSA (#50)

but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects,

Richard, you are digging yourself into a pit here.

It's apparent that Richard sees everyone else as fools, and feels uncontrollably compelled to inform them of their complete ignorance, repetitively, or until they agree with him.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#40)

The Lord God has allowed Satan to operate within the limits or boundries HE set. Satan's domain or control is only over unbelievers.

Of course Almighty God did exactly as you say. And what did Jesus Christ say about the world and about believers?

“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”—JOHN 17:16.

This is why it is so important to understand in what context the word world is used in the Bible. Jesus went even further;

“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (John 18:36)

Again, it is important to understand how the word world is used; to denote organizations and governments, of this world. Until people make this destinction, it is hard for them to understand how to be in this world, but not OF this world. Again, we can add to our understanding with the following;

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

World, again, being in reference to organizations, such as corporations, Babylonish religions, and governments.

I truly find it hard to understand, when people see so-called religious leaders consorting with world rulers/leaders, promoting wars 'for god and country,' and flying a national flag within or outside of their church, how people reconcile this with what Jesus Christ taught.

It was when I got to this point, long before I met my first Jehovah's Witness, that I began to see a distinction between believers, and, unbelievers.

Jesus told his followers: “If you love me, you will observe my commandments. He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me.” (John 14:15, 21)

Are the attractions of the world that compelling, that we can not show our love for Jesus Christ by being nuetral in a 'world' under control of the wicked one?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: richard9151 (#52) (Edited)

Are the attractions of the world that compelling, that we can not show our love for Jesus Christ by being nuetral in a 'world' under control of the wicked one?

"I wert that you were hot or cold ... but you were (lukewarm) neutral so I spewed you from my mouth".

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:53:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: noone222, rowdee, *Bible facts* (#41)

An argument over the trinity is absolute nonsense and a complete waste of time, though it has been debated for millenium by the most ardent students of scripture. They're all dead and the debate continues.

Is it? For them, maybe, but not for eveyone alive today.

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

If you actually believe that these kinds of questions are of no value, then you have no understanding of the Bible. The Bible is very, very clear on this; knowledge is essential to Salvation.

Here are the trinity facts, from the Bible.

None.

There is ONE VERSE in the Bible, where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned TOGETHER. That is the Baptism verse;

Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the consummation of the system of things.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

That's it. Every other verse in the Bible that has been thrown at me as 'proof' of the trinity mentions just two; Jehovah, and His Son. Period.

I have posted everything I could find that shows the roots of the trinity in Babylon, and, how the Roman church OPENLY admits that its tradition is the real reason for the trinity. And you will accept that over the Bible. And you wonder why I do not put much stock in what you say?

And then you add;

Peter stated quite plainly that we are to observe God's Laws not man's.

Really? As opposed to what?

In Romans 13:5 the apostle Paul calls attention to this the best motive, saying: “There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.” The wrath against wrongdoing is expressed directly by the earthly “authority.” But as the authority is God’s minister in a right direction, it is also God’s wrath indirectly. The person who disregards or opposes the “superior authorities” on earth is taking a stand against God’s arrangement and deserves God’s wrath also. No one enjoys punishment; but by avoiding it for conscience’ sake the Christians avoid not only outside trouble but also inward trouble from a guilty conscience.

With true Christians fear is not the main motive for being law-abiding and orderly, but their conscience is. So in their case subjection to superior authorities is not conscienceless. It is not just a patriotism. As their conscience is instructed in God’s Word, the Holy Bible, it does not let them subject themselves to earthly superior authorities in everything, say in cases where what the imperfect authorities think is right clashes with God’s commandments through Christ. This may result in suffering unjust punishment at the hands of the authorities; but thus we see how with Christians conscience is a compelling reason, since it forces them to obey God although this brings undeserved suffering upon them. If they had no enlightened conscience, they would sidestep such suffering for the sake of personal convenience. If, though, for conscience they undergo outward suffering at the hands of the superior authorities, they keep themselves free from inward suffering; their consciences do not smite them.

Again, this is something that the Bible is VERY clear on, just as Christ Jesus was. But you know better, right?

And then you say;

I am content to develop my own beliefs through study

But the Bible says;

“As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens the wits of another.” (Proverbs 27:17, The New English Bible) At times, our spiritual “wits,” that is, our spiritual knowledge and insight, need to be honed. But just as sharpening a literal knife requires skill and the correct tools, so you need to associate with the right people, those who have the ability to “impart some spiritual gift to you.”—Romans 1:11.

Want me to explain the above to you, noone? A for instance is about the trinity, and taking in accurate knowledge of God and of His Son, Jesus Christ, that you might gain eternal life. Another part of it is actually considering what information is brought to you, instead of dismissing it out of hand simply because it does not follow you traditions. I have also posted most of what Jesus Christ had to say about the traditions of man. I would be happy to do so again if you so wish.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   10:13:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: richard9151 (#54)

In Romans 13:5 the apostle Paul calls attention to this the best motive, saying: “There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.” The wrath against wrongdoing is expressed directly by the earthly “authority.” But as the authority is God’s minister in a right direction, it is also God’s wrath indirectly. The person who disregards or opposes the “superior authorities” on earth is taking a stand against God’s arrangement and deserves God’s wrath also. No one enjoys punishment; but by avoiding it for conscience’ sake the Christians avoid not only outside trouble but also inward trouble from a guilty conscience.

And how do the little children avoid the undeserved "PUNISHMENT" dealt them by a government supported by those that think like you and Paul ?

Romans 13 is difficult to say the least. How does Romans 13 correspond to Nehemiah 5 or to the time when the Hebrew women refused to abort the Hebrew male babies after Pharoah demanded it ?

Paul was a Jew, a highly trained Pharisee, trained at the feet of Gamaliel, he was a Roman, and a murderer of Christians. I think the admonishment of Jesus referencing the fruit of the tree is sufficient to express my personal opinion of Paul and Romans 13. Herein lies another argument that could go on forever.

I don't suppose there's any chance you could go to another planet and preach, is there ???

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   10:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: noone222 (#55)

Arent you glad the founders didnt see Romans 13 this way?

It's amazing how much evil can be justified by pulling out this chapter, unless you actually read it and understand it. In fact, DHS is counting on this very chapter and this very book to be used to keep the dumbasses in line when martial law or any other disturbance threatens the .gov

For rulers are (5748) not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou (5719) then not be afraid (5738) of the power? do (5720) that which is good, and thou shalt have (5692) praise of the same:

And now, as then, our "rulers" ARE a terror to good works, and therefore deserve their forced removal IMO.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   10:49:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: richard9151 (#46)

I wonder what it is about people in America. There are 168 hours in a week, and they can not spend the time to study the Bible for ONE HOUR A WEEK!! Just to learn what it really says. Amazing. Is the TV really that important!? Which brings us back to your Jehovah's Witness friend. Yes, she is your friend, but I bet you do not study the Bible with her, do you.

What an arrogant, prideful, judgmental asshole you are, richard. You are constantly writing as though no one but you and your jw friends do anything with the Bible. Take your pride and shove it.........because God surely will....if the Bible is to be believed, and it is! He hates pride. He hates boasting. And judgmental--enjoy yourself.

And no, I do not sit and study the Bible with her. Absolutely not. Of what use is it to study with someone who uses a bible which no knows who translated it, what his/her/its cv is, yada yada. And if it is anything like Russell himself as a part or all of the translator, I wouldn't even care to hold it in my hands.

rowdee  posted on  2008-12-07   12:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: noone222 (#41)

I have witnessed 1st hand on many occasions interested and inquisitive people get completely turned off to scripture because of the actions and statements made by the hypocrites and tyrants claiming to teach it.

Thanks to you, noone, for your complete comment--so much more thoughtful and coherent than what I could have said.

The quote I cited above is what grieves me---the thought of someone losing out on Jesus Christs' good news.

And as it regards taking more than one lifetime to gain the most of scriptures, I would tend to agree with you. I find myself rushing along in reading--almost a frantic fear of not being able to learn more, or the most important of the more. And kicking myself in the butt, time after time, because I turned my back on God so long ago and suffered my 40 years in the wilderness experience.

rowdee  posted on  2008-12-07   12:36:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: rowdee (#58)

Thank you, Rowdee.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   14:46:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: richard9151 (#30) (Edited)

One last item to remember on this point: we have no record of either John or any other member of the early Church writing to instruct the Church that the events prophesied in the New Testament surrounding the return of Christ ever came to pass in 70 AD. If those events did come to pass, then the Church was left with no instruction regarding that fact.

I forgot about this post...I had an errand to run and then went to bed. I see it's grown quite a bit since then. I haven't read all the responses, but this caught my eye since it was bolded.

A possible reason for that is that all members of the early church had either been killed, or left when they saw the city was surrounded by armies, as they had been instructed by Jesus to do, and they didn't see what happened. The way I understand it, they went into hiding. It IS recorded that no Christians were killed in the destruction of Jerusalem.

It appears that Jesus told the disciples that they all would die before He came back in judgment, except that at least one would perhaps live a little longer than the others. Perhaps that was John the revelator? I don't know.

Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jhn 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

Jhn 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]?

Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Jhn 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?

Jhn 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=21&v=23#23

Maybe he died, maybe he was raptured :)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...m?b=1Th&c=4&v=15&t=KJV#15

[at any rate, it doesn't seem anyone was around to write a postscript....or no Christians, that is...Josephus, a Pharisee, wrote plenty. http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/ http://www.preteristarchive.com/...timeline_theological.html ]

I'll try to get back to this. more errands to do.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-07   19:33:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: rowdee (#57)

And no, I do not sit and study the Bible with her. Absolutely not. Of what use is it to study with someone who uses a bible which no knows who translated it, what his/her/its cv is, yada yada. And if it is anything like Russell himself as a part or all of the translator, I wouldn't even care to hold it in my hands.

No, I did not think so. After all, when you study together, why would you try and help her to understand, right?

And do not start in about the Bibles; I used a King James throughout my studies with the Witnesses, and they do not care what Bible you use! Talk about conceited! And it is really nice to see what you truly think of 'your friend.'

I checked verses from 5 different OF MY BIBLES, against the one Gray, my friend, was using, and there is no difference. But that is all right, just go on believing what you are told instead of bothering to learn for yourself.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-08   14:26:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: PSUSA (#42)

OK Richard. What point did I "lose"?

Sorry for the delay. Been working.

About how the word world is used in the Bible, in referencing worldly governments, organizations, and religions.

How did Jesus Christ refer to the world?

John 18:36 Jesus answered “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought . . . But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

Source is an interesting word. It clearly shows that Jesus was not referring to the earth, but just as I have posted about the use of the word world. He went on;

John 17:14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

Let me see, the world hated them. Are you now going to argue that this means that the earth hates the followers of Jesus Christ? Rather than the earthly organizations established and controlled by Satan? Course, I could point how that there is no anomosity shown amoung Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. It does seem that all of the anger is aimed directly at those who reject the religion of the world; i.e., those who do not accept hell, an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies (making a liar out of Almighty God), and, of course, the trinity.

Should we continue? Yes, lets.

10 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.

Need I define, Biblically, brother? Do I need to post that Almighty God is going to take out of all nations a people for his name? Do I need to post that Almighty God is not partial, but ALL that pratice righteousness will gain salvation, no matter their color or nationality?

1 Timothy 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

No? well, if need be, I can.

17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Does nuetrality need to be spelled out any clearer? How are you loving your brothers when you support the governments sending out men to kill them?

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

Seems pretty clear to me. Should I post the part about man can not even direct his own steps correctly?

I understand your problem; if you admit the use of the word world refers to organizations, governments and religions, then, no more politics. Shock! Horror! WHAT TO DO!!

Work for Jehovah God, just as the Witnesses do, 24/7. Always first in our minds.

Which brings to mind this Scripture;

. Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

I have news for you; this is happening right now, world wide, in more than 230 lands. Course, I understand, Obama is obviously much, much more important, cause if he were not there in DC, someone good would be........ right?

No matter who gets elected, nothing changes. And no one seems to be able to catch on that Almighty God is the only one with the solution.... well in hand.

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

As I said, seems pretty clear to me.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-08   20:19:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: noone222 (#49)

Well, if the best you can do is latch on to the doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesses after all of that study and clearing of the bullshit in your head ...

Short term memory problems, ummm, noone? So let me, for about the 5th or 6th time, spell it out for you.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. A willing follower. I follow what he, the Greatest Teacher who ever lived, taught. Nothing more, and, nothing less. The only organization that I have ever found that does the same thing..... is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They changed NOTHING in my general understanding of the Bible; it was more like coming home. They did, certainly, help me to understand much, much better, but that was all.

OK, got it?

Just in case you do not, carefully read the following;

Does the Bible Support the Idea of the Trinity?

http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html

While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?

The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’

The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’

Protestant theologian Karl Barth as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976 similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’

-----------------------------------------------

Now that we are past that, I will not, and have never accepted anything that was not taught by the Greatest Man who ever lived. End of story.

But perhaps this makes the difference between you and me a little clearer, what?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   0:35:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: richard9151 (#63)

So let me, for about the 5th or 6th time, spell it out for you.

Please, spell it our for someone else.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-09   1:29:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: richard9151 (#62)

Let me see, the world hated them. Are you now going to argue that this means that the earth hates the followers of Jesus Christ? Rather than the earthly organizations established and controlled by Satan? Course, I could point how that there is no anomosity shown amoung Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. It does seem that all of the anger is aimed directly at those who reject the religion of the world; i.e., those who do not accept hell, an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies (making a liar out of Almighty God), and, of course, the trinity.

I agree with all of that, except that Satan is not in ultimate control, he too fulfills a purpose that he was created for. I dont buy the nonsense that he chose to sin and became a really big fly in Gods' ointment.

Need I define, Biblically, brother? Do I need to post that Almighty God is going to take out of all nations a people for his name? Do I need to post that Almighty God is not partial, but ALL that pratice righteousness will gain salvation, no matter their color or nationality?

Nope. I agree with almost all of that. I agree with just about everything you posted. Only who gives a person the ABILITY to practice righteousness in the first place? We cant do it on our own power.

Where we differ is in the difference between the called and the chosen or elect, and their purposes and their fates. You do not take them into account. You simply annihilate the many. Scripture does not support that. YOu seem to forget that countless millions have never had a clue who Jesus was. What do the JW believe happens to them? They have to be accounted for.

THe parables talk about the kingdom. If you understand 1 parable, you understand them all, because they all talk about the many and the few, the called and the elect.

We also seem to differ on how the words "eternal", "everlasting", forever, etc were translated from a word that means something else.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   8:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: richard9151, noone222 (#63) (Edited)

http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html

While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?

The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’

The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’

Protestant theologian Karl Barth as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976 similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’

And you can find just as many theologians who say just the opposite Richard. You've done nothing more than pick and choose those who agree with your interpretation. As I've stated a million times, it's all about interpretation, i.e. opinion, which makes it all bullshit. No one has a clue as to what the truth is.

You claim it's not biblical, but those that believe in it have specific biblical references they use for their belief's, and from my research, those references include more than just a passage in Matthew. Now you may reject those references and interpretations (opinions) and that's fine, but it's nothing more than your interpretation (opinion) against theirs. You claiming their beliefs is not biblical means nothing to those who believe it because you are a no one to those people, in the same way that they are no one to you.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09   8:10:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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