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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Revelation 13:4
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 6, 2008
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2008-12-06 10:11:49 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1120
Comments: 81

Revelation 13:4

… At the same time, the Great War (World War I), as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion keep the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esme Wingfield-Stratford wrote; “it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of (their) overmastering unity and common trusteeship.” As events turned out, they did. In 1917, the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.

The world after the war was vastly different. Satan’s earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.

Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes; “The collapse of the old order (caused by the first world war) was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence.” Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the year 2005, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has “followed the wild beast with admiration.”

Mankind has even gone beyond admiring the wild beast, as John next states: “And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: ‘Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?’” (Revelation 13:4) While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world and refused to participate in the politics of that day. John later wrote of true Christians: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8; John 6:15; 14:30) Satan delegates power to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of goodly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship.

In what sense? In the sense of putting love of country ahead of love of God. Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong,” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship Jehovah God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon – the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael – his name meaning “Who Is Like God?” – as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven. – Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19:21. ....

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

#1. To: richard9151, All (#0)

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. THe world belongs to God.

Acts 17:24

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

The rest, I wont bother with.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   10:33:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: PSUSA (#1)

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. THe world belongs to God.

Please be careful as to who you are calling a liar;

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says the apostle John. (1 John 5:19)

There is a reason that Jesus Christ did not partake of politics, and that reason is the Jehovah God is permitting man to learn what happens when we do not live according to His Word. I do understand that you are very confused on this issue, but you still need to be careful with your choices of words. When you make such statements, you show no fruitage of the spirit.

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   14:54:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: richard9151 (#7) (Edited)

Please be careful as to who you are calling a liar;

I am calling the author a liar. It is quite deliberate.

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” does not mean that satan owns the world. It means he controls it only to the degree that GOd allows. He cannot act without Gods' permission. The book of Job, for example.

When you make such statements, you show no fruitage of the spirit.

Fruitage?

I just call a spade a spade. The person that wrote that should have known better.

But he comes across with great authority to try and make himself look like he knows what he is talking about. Just like the other wolves do, he makes assertions without backing them up.

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.

I see nothing about tolerating lies or liars in there. Using your standards, Christ should have hugged the moneychangers instead of beating them with cords.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   15:21:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: PSUSA (#10)

But he comes across with great authority to try and make himself look like he knows what he is talking about.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and be more careful as to what you say, until you read something completely, and understand what you are reading.

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

It says nothing in there about Satan owning the world; it says exactly what is said in 1 John;

“the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”? (1 John 5:19)

And this is exactly what Jesus Christ was referring to as well, that Satan controlled the governments of man. Or, are you going to want to argue about that as well?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   15:29:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: richard9151 (#11)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

This is what the article said:

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world

This is what I said:

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. The world belongs to God.

Satan can only do what he is allowed to do. Job, for example. God is soverign, not Satan.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   15:51:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: PSUSA (#12)

This is what I said:

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. The world belongs to God.

I would guess from this that someone, probably me, needs to explain to you what 'the world' is that is referred to in the Bible.

At John 3:16, 17, what “world” did God love so much, and what “world” did God send Jesus, not to judge, but to save?

In John’s account of Jesus’ life the English word “world” is translated from the Greek word kósmos, which occurs at least seventy-nine times in the original text of John’s account. Fundamentally, kósmos means “order,” that is, a constituted order, an arrangement, an ordering of things according to a certain design, an arrangement of things according to a certain pattern. I.e., governments.

I will post the entire piece so you can read it. Basically, unless you understand this, you can make no sense out of 'be in this world, but not OF this world,' or 'order of things.'

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   16:03:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: richard9151 (#13)

At John 3:16, 17, what “world” did God love so much, and what “world” did God send Jesus, not to judge, but to save?

In John’s account of Jesus’ life the English word “world” is translated from the Greek word kósmos, which occurs at least seventy-nine times in the original text of John’s account.

Really?

www.studylight.org/lex/gr...&book=joh&translation=str

tells it occurs 58 times in John, not "at least 79". And in just glancing thru all the times it occurs, it is translated as "world", not "Fundamentally, kósmos means “order,” that is, a constituted order, an arrangement, an ordering of things according to a certain design, an arrangement of things according to a certain pattern. I.e., governments. "

So you are now working your way towards showing that Christ did not came to save the world, like He plainly claimed He did, but only that he came to save certain people. Am I right?

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   17:08:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: PSUSA (#17)

but only that he came to save certain people. Am I right?

Did I say that, or, anything like it? This is how it is stated in the Bible;

Rev. 20:12, 13: “I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. . . . They were judged individually according to their deeds.”

Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   17:28:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: richard9151 (#21)

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

All means all, except to theologians that try and explain away scriptures into fitting their personal doctrines.

God is judging His house now.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The rest get judged later.

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

Who, according to NT scripture, was the "worst sinner"? How long did it take to convert him?

And do you really think you are better than any of them? If I recall correctly, there are a few scriptures that have some things to say about pride. Break 1 law, you are guilty of all.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   18:23:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: PSUSA (#27)

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus.

The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:31:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: richard9151 (#29)

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

I said he was going to judge them, Hitler, Stalin, popes, you, me, everyone.

You didnt ask a "rhetorical question", you tried to set a trap. You think that by asking about what you think of as extremely evil people will change anything? Who is it that makes the vessels of honor and dishonor? WHo makes peace and creates evil? God does it all, if you believe the scriptures.

Don't you know that we will judge angels? It is our job to judge righteous judgment.

You said:

"And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus. "

If why when or not? Referring to what? Are you referring to "sentencing"? If so, David said that he would rather be judged my God rather than man. And David was no angel.

Then you said:

"The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion. "

You call it picking apart. I call it exposing lies. You seem to be upset that I am not just going along with what you are teaching, and that is not "beneficial" to you.

.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   19:01:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: PSUSA (#31)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else, and I am not going to play that game. The above is where we were at, and you brought in the other. I then asked you if you thought, etc., a retorical question.

No traps. No nonsense. And, that was my question. Everything else I sent came directly from the official writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and is Scripturally sound.

And then you want to add; and that is not "beneficial" to you.

Are you waiting for me to pass the collection plate? In what way is it beneficial to me? Very, very strange how you add 2 and 2 to get 3.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   19:16:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: richard9151 (#32)

You are nothing but a typical debater

and you, my good sir are a typical "baiter".

Richard, you insist upon trolling for a religious argument continuously. Most times I resist responding to your entrapments but I guess today isn't one of those times. Your instructions and preachings might impress a novice bible student, but grate upon the patience of others that may be more studied than "even" yourself, especially when each utterance seems to be spoken as if it were spoken from far above the lowly scum that gather here.

Maybe you're attempting to speak with "authority" as was said about Jesus. Surely, reading His words demonstrates a humility that you would do well to find.

noone222  posted on  2008-12-06   19:56:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: noone222 (#35)

Maybe you're attempting to speak with "authority" as was said about Jesus.

Almost nothing I post in Religion is written by me. I clearly mark that in the author section in each piece.

I am not capable of writing the pieces I post, which are so Scripturally sound that they can not be qustioned, which is why debaters want to pull any discussion off point. And the Scriptually sound part is what causes the problems for those such as yourself who do not bother to do the studies.

I wonder, noone, I open the Bible about 20 plus times a week. I have more than 200 verses marked for special attention in my Bible, and, if I counted in all of my Bibles, that would be more than 400 verses. Do you even open a Bible once a week? Once a month? Do you even have 5 favorite verses?!

I listen to you spout, when we could have a clear discussion about the merits of each verse, but that is apparently beyond you. Perhaps you might learn something, or, you may be able to clear up some of my understandings. But that is beyond your ability, appartently.

You hold the same beliefs as the vast majority of mankind does about the nature of their gods (trinity), the so-called immortal soul, and hell, and can not grasp what is meant about the narrow road which few find and the broad road so well traveled and which leads to destruction.

But that is your choice, noone. You have a free will, and if you think that you are gaining something by spouting off at every preceived evil in the world, then go for it. If you ever wake up, Jehovah is interested in you.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   23:18:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: richard9151 (#36)

I am interested in learning. Period.

You hold the same beliefs as the vast majority of mankind does about the nature of their gods (trinity), the so-called immortal soul, and hell, and can not grasp what is meant about the narrow road which few find and the broad road so well traveled and which leads to destruction.

Actually, what you sound like is exactly like all of the stupid ones who want to argue that there is no law requiring them to pay the income tax. So, you show them where it is authorized on a contractual basis within the Social Security Enabling Act and they will still go ahead and argue their way right into a prison cause they will not accept proof. The only thing that they want to hear is what they want to hear, just like you. Nothing else matters.

That you're soley interested in "learning", period ... is a lie, period. It's all too obvious that you're most interested in everyone else learning what you decide to teach.

Truly remarkable scholars and spiritually inclined seekers of truth have dedicated entire lifetimes to earnestly study Biblical writings. Many of these have encountered difficulty interpreting the many levels of scriptural revelation. I, myself am persuaded that one lifetime isn't long enough to complete a thorough understanding of scripture. In reading these scholarly commentaries one realizes the sincerity and intensity of their search for understanding without feeling the sting of the masters whip.

With you, the sting of the whip is ever present. It's as if you set the snare, and lay in wait for a victim. Most generally you throw out a topic that suits your fancy or latest exposure to new learning, and then pounce upon anyone that might offer a differing opinion. I have utter disdain for bullies and regard them with contempt.

I have witnessed 1st hand on many occasions interested and inquisitive people get completely turned off to scripture because of the actions and statements made by the hypocrites and tyrants claiming to teach it.

Remove the beam in your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your neighbors seems to me the appropriate message herein. Having a genuine debate or discussion purposed to enlighten doesn't begin with one of the parties talking down to the others involved.

Finally, religious inquisitions have been carried out through tyrannical misapplication of authority based upon particular interpretations of scripture by religious criminals with the assistance of well intentioned zealots. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history can see that this has occurred repeatedly and most would choose to avoid a recurrence. If the religious organizations calling themselves churches have a problem it's of their own making. Their history is filled with hypocrisy and murder, that even the unwashed masses are repulsed by.

I am content to develop my own beliefs through study without feeling the necessity to debate them with you, or attempting to convince others that they should believe as I do. An argument over the trinity is absolute nonsense and a complete waste of time, though it has been debated for millenium by the most ardent students of scripture. They're all dead and the debate continues.

Another poster (Rowdee) made the point that you appear to be one that has decided everyone making determinations diverse from yours is going to hell. I agree with her on this point. I also think this attitude is small minded and reduces the unlimited power of the Creator of this universe to that of the foster parent of a spoiled child that thinks he's "special".

Actually, what you sound like is exactly like all of the stupid ones who want to argue that there is no law requiring them to pay the income tax.

Really ? What if I said that I hold no opinion as regards the secular "law" regarding income taxation but have chosen prison (or worse) in preference to financing the murder of little children ? Peter stated quite plainly that we are to observe God's Laws not man's.

I can be a real asshole, Richard. That's how I'm able to know one when I see one.

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   3:37:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: noone222, rowdee, *Bible facts* (#41)

An argument over the trinity is absolute nonsense and a complete waste of time, though it has been debated for millenium by the most ardent students of scripture. They're all dead and the debate continues.

Is it? For them, maybe, but not for eveyone alive today.

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

If you actually believe that these kinds of questions are of no value, then you have no understanding of the Bible. The Bible is very, very clear on this; knowledge is essential to Salvation.

Here are the trinity facts, from the Bible.

None.

There is ONE VERSE in the Bible, where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned TOGETHER. That is the Baptism verse;

Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the consummation of the system of things.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

That's it. Every other verse in the Bible that has been thrown at me as 'proof' of the trinity mentions just two; Jehovah, and His Son. Period.

I have posted everything I could find that shows the roots of the trinity in Babylon, and, how the Roman church OPENLY admits that its tradition is the real reason for the trinity. And you will accept that over the Bible. And you wonder why I do not put much stock in what you say?

And then you add;

Peter stated quite plainly that we are to observe God's Laws not man's.

Really? As opposed to what?

In Romans 13:5 the apostle Paul calls attention to this the best motive, saying: “There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.” The wrath against wrongdoing is expressed directly by the earthly “authority.” But as the authority is God’s minister in a right direction, it is also God’s wrath indirectly. The person who disregards or opposes the “superior authorities” on earth is taking a stand against God’s arrangement and deserves God’s wrath also. No one enjoys punishment; but by avoiding it for conscience’ sake the Christians avoid not only outside trouble but also inward trouble from a guilty conscience.

With true Christians fear is not the main motive for being law-abiding and orderly, but their conscience is. So in their case subjection to superior authorities is not conscienceless. It is not just a patriotism. As their conscience is instructed in God’s Word, the Holy Bible, it does not let them subject themselves to earthly superior authorities in everything, say in cases where what the imperfect authorities think is right clashes with God’s commandments through Christ. This may result in suffering unjust punishment at the hands of the authorities; but thus we see how with Christians conscience is a compelling reason, since it forces them to obey God although this brings undeserved suffering upon them. If they had no enlightened conscience, they would sidestep such suffering for the sake of personal convenience. If, though, for conscience they undergo outward suffering at the hands of the superior authorities, they keep themselves free from inward suffering; their consciences do not smite them.

Again, this is something that the Bible is VERY clear on, just as Christ Jesus was. But you know better, right?

And then you say;

I am content to develop my own beliefs through study

But the Bible says;

“As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens the wits of another.” (Proverbs 27:17, The New English Bible) At times, our spiritual “wits,” that is, our spiritual knowledge and insight, need to be honed. But just as sharpening a literal knife requires skill and the correct tools, so you need to associate with the right people, those who have the ability to “impart some spiritual gift to you.”—Romans 1:11.

Want me to explain the above to you, noone? A for instance is about the trinity, and taking in accurate knowledge of God and of His Son, Jesus Christ, that you might gain eternal life. Another part of it is actually considering what information is brought to you, instead of dismissing it out of hand simply because it does not follow you traditions. I have also posted most of what Jesus Christ had to say about the traditions of man. I would be happy to do so again if you so wish.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   10:13:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: richard9151 (#54)

In Romans 13:5 the apostle Paul calls attention to this the best motive, saying: “There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.” The wrath against wrongdoing is expressed directly by the earthly “authority.” But as the authority is God’s minister in a right direction, it is also God’s wrath indirectly. The person who disregards or opposes the “superior authorities” on earth is taking a stand against God’s arrangement and deserves God’s wrath also. No one enjoys punishment; but by avoiding it for conscience’ sake the Christians avoid not only outside trouble but also inward trouble from a guilty conscience.

And how do the little children avoid the undeserved "PUNISHMENT" dealt them by a government supported by those that think like you and Paul ?

Romans 13 is difficult to say the least. How does Romans 13 correspond to Nehemiah 5 or to the time when the Hebrew women refused to abort the Hebrew male babies after Pharoah demanded it ?

Paul was a Jew, a highly trained Pharisee, trained at the feet of Gamaliel, he was a Roman, and a murderer of Christians. I think the admonishment of Jesus referencing the fruit of the tree is sufficient to express my personal opinion of Paul and Romans 13. Herein lies another argument that could go on forever.

I don't suppose there's any chance you could go to another planet and preach, is there ???

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   10:30:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 55.

#56. To: noone222 (#55)

Arent you glad the founders didnt see Romans 13 this way?

It's amazing how much evil can be justified by pulling out this chapter, unless you actually read it and understand it. In fact, DHS is counting on this very chapter and this very book to be used to keep the dumbasses in line when martial law or any other disturbance threatens the .gov

For rulers are (5748) not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou (5719) then not be afraid (5738) of the power? do (5720) that which is good, and thou shalt have (5692) praise of the same:

And now, as then, our "rulers" ARE a terror to good works, and therefore deserve their forced removal IMO.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07 10:49:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

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