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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Revelation 13:4
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 6, 2008
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2008-12-06 10:11:49 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1068
Comments: 81

Revelation 13:4

… At the same time, the Great War (World War I), as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion keep the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esme Wingfield-Stratford wrote; “it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of (their) overmastering unity and common trusteeship.” As events turned out, they did. In 1917, the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.

The world after the war was vastly different. Satan’s earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.

Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes; “The collapse of the old order (caused by the first world war) was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence.” Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the year 2005, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has “followed the wild beast with admiration.”

Mankind has even gone beyond admiring the wild beast, as John next states: “And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: ‘Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?’” (Revelation 13:4) While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world and refused to participate in the politics of that day. John later wrote of true Christians: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8; John 6:15; 14:30) Satan delegates power to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of goodly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship.

In what sense? In the sense of putting love of country ahead of love of God. Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong,” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship Jehovah God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon – the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael – his name meaning “Who Is Like God?” – as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven. – Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19:21. ....

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#1. To: richard9151, All (#0)

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. THe world belongs to God.

Acts 17:24

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

The rest, I wont bother with.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   10:33:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: PSUSA (#1)

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. THe world belongs to God.

Please be careful as to who you are calling a liar;

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says the apostle John. (1 John 5:19)

There is a reason that Jesus Christ did not partake of politics, and that reason is the Jehovah God is permitting man to learn what happens when we do not live according to His Word. I do understand that you are very confused on this issue, but you still need to be careful with your choices of words. When you make such statements, you show no fruitage of the spirit.

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   14:54:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: richard9151 (#7) (Edited)

Please be careful as to who you are calling a liar;

I am calling the author a liar. It is quite deliberate.

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” does not mean that satan owns the world. It means he controls it only to the degree that GOd allows. He cannot act without Gods' permission. The book of Job, for example.

When you make such statements, you show no fruitage of the spirit.

Fruitage?

I just call a spade a spade. The person that wrote that should have known better.

But he comes across with great authority to try and make himself look like he knows what he is talking about. Just like the other wolves do, he makes assertions without backing them up.

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.

I see nothing about tolerating lies or liars in there. Using your standards, Christ should have hugged the moneychangers instead of beating them with cords.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   15:21:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: PSUSA (#10)

But he comes across with great authority to try and make himself look like he knows what he is talking about.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and be more careful as to what you say, until you read something completely, and understand what you are reading.

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

It says nothing in there about Satan owning the world; it says exactly what is said in 1 John;

“the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”? (1 John 5:19)

And this is exactly what Jesus Christ was referring to as well, that Satan controlled the governments of man. Or, are you going to want to argue about that as well?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   15:29:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: richard9151 (#11)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

This is what the article said:

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world

This is what I said:

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. The world belongs to God.

Satan can only do what he is allowed to do. Job, for example. God is soverign, not Satan.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   15:51:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: PSUSA (#12)

This is what I said:

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. The world belongs to God.

I would guess from this that someone, probably me, needs to explain to you what 'the world' is that is referred to in the Bible.

At John 3:16, 17, what “world” did God love so much, and what “world” did God send Jesus, not to judge, but to save?

In John’s account of Jesus’ life the English word “world” is translated from the Greek word kósmos, which occurs at least seventy-nine times in the original text of John’s account. Fundamentally, kósmos means “order,” that is, a constituted order, an arrangement, an ordering of things according to a certain design, an arrangement of things according to a certain pattern. I.e., governments.

I will post the entire piece so you can read it. Basically, unless you understand this, you can make no sense out of 'be in this world, but not OF this world,' or 'order of things.'

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   16:03:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: richard9151 (#13)

At John 3:16, 17, what “world” did God love so much, and what “world” did God send Jesus, not to judge, but to save?

In John’s account of Jesus’ life the English word “world” is translated from the Greek word kósmos, which occurs at least seventy-nine times in the original text of John’s account.

Really?

www.studylight.org/lex/gr...&book=joh&translation=str

tells it occurs 58 times in John, not "at least 79". And in just glancing thru all the times it occurs, it is translated as "world", not "Fundamentally, kósmos means “order,” that is, a constituted order, an arrangement, an ordering of things according to a certain design, an arrangement of things according to a certain pattern. I.e., governments. "

So you are now working your way towards showing that Christ did not came to save the world, like He plainly claimed He did, but only that he came to save certain people. Am I right?

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   17:08:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: PSUSA (#17)

but only that he came to save certain people. Am I right?

Did I say that, or, anything like it? This is how it is stated in the Bible;

Rev. 20:12, 13: “I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. . . . They were judged individually according to their deeds.”

Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   17:28:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: richard9151 (#21)

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

All means all, except to theologians that try and explain away scriptures into fitting their personal doctrines.

God is judging His house now.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The rest get judged later.

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

Who, according to NT scripture, was the "worst sinner"? How long did it take to convert him?

And do you really think you are better than any of them? If I recall correctly, there are a few scriptures that have some things to say about pride. Break 1 law, you are guilty of all.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   18:23:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: PSUSA (#27)

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus.

The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:31:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: richard9151 (#29)

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

I said he was going to judge them, Hitler, Stalin, popes, you, me, everyone.

You didnt ask a "rhetorical question", you tried to set a trap. You think that by asking about what you think of as extremely evil people will change anything? Who is it that makes the vessels of honor and dishonor? WHo makes peace and creates evil? God does it all, if you believe the scriptures.

Don't you know that we will judge angels? It is our job to judge righteous judgment.

You said:

"And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus. "

If why when or not? Referring to what? Are you referring to "sentencing"? If so, David said that he would rather be judged my God rather than man. And David was no angel.

Then you said:

"The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion. "

You call it picking apart. I call it exposing lies. You seem to be upset that I am not just going along with what you are teaching, and that is not "beneficial" to you.

.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   19:01:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: PSUSA (#31)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else, and I am not going to play that game. The above is where we were at, and you brought in the other. I then asked you if you thought, etc., a retorical question.

No traps. No nonsense. And, that was my question. Everything else I sent came directly from the official writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and is Scripturally sound.

And then you want to add; and that is not "beneficial" to you.

Are you waiting for me to pass the collection plate? In what way is it beneficial to me? Very, very strange how you add 2 and 2 to get 3.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   19:16:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: richard9151 (#32)

You are nothing but a typical debater

and you, my good sir are a typical "baiter".

Richard, you insist upon trolling for a religious argument continuously. Most times I resist responding to your entrapments but I guess today isn't one of those times. Your instructions and preachings might impress a novice bible student, but grate upon the patience of others that may be more studied than "even" yourself, especially when each utterance seems to be spoken as if it were spoken from far above the lowly scum that gather here.

Maybe you're attempting to speak with "authority" as was said about Jesus. Surely, reading His words demonstrates a humility that you would do well to find.

noone222  posted on  2008-12-06   19:56:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: noone222 (#35)

Maybe you're attempting to speak with "authority" as was said about Jesus.

Almost nothing I post in Religion is written by me. I clearly mark that in the author section in each piece.

I am not capable of writing the pieces I post, which are so Scripturally sound that they can not be qustioned, which is why debaters want to pull any discussion off point. And the Scriptually sound part is what causes the problems for those such as yourself who do not bother to do the studies.

I wonder, noone, I open the Bible about 20 plus times a week. I have more than 200 verses marked for special attention in my Bible, and, if I counted in all of my Bibles, that would be more than 400 verses. Do you even open a Bible once a week? Once a month? Do you even have 5 favorite verses?!

I listen to you spout, when we could have a clear discussion about the merits of each verse, but that is apparently beyond you. Perhaps you might learn something, or, you may be able to clear up some of my understandings. But that is beyond your ability, appartently.

You hold the same beliefs as the vast majority of mankind does about the nature of their gods (trinity), the so-called immortal soul, and hell, and can not grasp what is meant about the narrow road which few find and the broad road so well traveled and which leads to destruction.

But that is your choice, noone. You have a free will, and if you think that you are gaining something by spouting off at every preceived evil in the world, then go for it. If you ever wake up, Jehovah is interested in you.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   23:18:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: richard9151, noone222 (#36)

I wonder, noone, I open the Bible about 20 plus times a week. I have more than 200 verses marked for special attention in my Bible, and, if I counted in all of my Bibles, that would be more than 400 verses. Do you even open a Bible once a week? Once a month? Do you even have 5 favorite verses?!

Wheee. Wow. Richard! This is impressive! Where do you want your little merit badge? Is your shoulder OK now?

Seriously, Richard......your 'holier than thou' attitude gains no conversation or debate. With your attitude, I guarantee you would not gain entry into my home--and I do have a friend here who is JW who does come into my home and visit! But Cherie is nothing like you in attitude, or should I say, perceived attitude?

Frankly, richard, you seem to be just another one of those 'we're the only ones going to heaven, yada yada yada' types...those who should never be verbally witnessing regarding Jesus Christ, Jehovah, the Holy Spirit, Gospels, or anything else. You'd do much better just to let people see your actions, i.e., your head spent over YOUR bible, or watchiing you in prayer.

rowdee  posted on  2008-12-07   0:41:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rowdee (#38)

You'd do much better just to let people see your actions, i.e., your head spent over YOUR bible, or watchiing you in prayer.

They do.... here. Which is why I have so many friends.... here. And no one watches me pray unless I am asked to say a prayer in the congregation.

Where do you want your little merit badge?

Sorry. Have no interest in merit badges or in glory from men. I just have a real problem with deliberate, self-imposed ignorance.

is nothing like you in attitude, or should I say, perceived attitude?

Perceived attitude is correct, because you have never talked with me, and, never will. After I spend the time that I do on subjects, clearing the extra material out of my head and finding what I consider to be a Truth, I admit that it is hard for me to understand how others can not do the same -- given that there is only one Truth on any subject -- and yes, I consider myself to be right, or, I WOULD CONTINUE TO SEARCH. I also ask for correction, but that does not mean posting a couple of verses on something and thinking that this is going to change my mind.

There are many things in the Bible that are not open to debate, but still people wish to debate them. Why? Because they were TOLD that such and such is how it is, end of subject, and they accept that.

That is a complete denial of personel responsibility, to do the work and the study on your own, and that is stupidity at its worst. Just my opinion, you understand.

I wonder what it is about people in America. There are 168 hours in a week, and they can not spend the time to study the Bible for ONE HOUR A WEEK!! Just to learn what it really says. Amazing. Is the TV really that important!? Which brings us back to your Jehovah's Witness friend. Yes, she is your friend, but I bet you do not study the Bible with her, do you.

And yes, I am much blunter than most Jehovah's Witnesses. I also admit that. I also admit that when I visit with people face to face, I am different, but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects, and with Americans in general, again on most subjects, is ample evidence of why I live elsewhere, is it not?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:23:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: richard9151 (#46)

After I spend the time that I do on subjects, clearing the extra material out of my head and finding what I consider to be a Truth, I admit that it is hard for me to understand how others can not do the same -- given that there is only one Truth on any subject -- and yes, I consider myself to be right

Well, if the best you can do is latch on to the doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesses after all of that study and clearing of the bullshit in your head ... your condition is hopeless.

Of course, there is grace, but let's don't go there either or we'll have to have an argument over whether grace or works is paramount to salvation. This is another persistent debate without satisfactory conclusions ever drawn.

If you re-read your post to Rowdee and can't see your own arrogance then you're more like a vampire incapable of seeing his own reflection in a mirror.

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:41:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: noone222 (#49)

Well, if the best you can do is latch on to the doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesses after all of that study and clearing of the bullshit in your head ...

Short term memory problems, ummm, noone? So let me, for about the 5th or 6th time, spell it out for you.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. A willing follower. I follow what he, the Greatest Teacher who ever lived, taught. Nothing more, and, nothing less. The only organization that I have ever found that does the same thing..... is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They changed NOTHING in my general understanding of the Bible; it was more like coming home. They did, certainly, help me to understand much, much better, but that was all.

OK, got it?

Just in case you do not, carefully read the following;

Does the Bible Support the Idea of the Trinity?

http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html

While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?

The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’

The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’

Protestant theologian Karl Barth as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976 similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’

-----------------------------------------------

Now that we are past that, I will not, and have never accepted anything that was not taught by the Greatest Man who ever lived. End of story.

But perhaps this makes the difference between you and me a little clearer, what?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   0:35:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: richard9151, noone222 (#63) (Edited)

http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html

While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?

The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’

The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’

Protestant theologian Karl Barth as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976 similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’

And you can find just as many theologians who say just the opposite Richard. You've done nothing more than pick and choose those who agree with your interpretation. As I've stated a million times, it's all about interpretation, i.e. opinion, which makes it all bullshit. No one has a clue as to what the truth is.

You claim it's not biblical, but those that believe in it have specific biblical references they use for their belief's, and from my research, those references include more than just a passage in Matthew. Now you may reject those references and interpretations (opinions) and that's fine, but it's nothing more than your interpretation (opinion) against theirs. You claiming their beliefs is not biblical means nothing to those who believe it because you are a no one to those people, in the same way that they are no one to you.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09   8:10:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Hayek Fan (#66)

And you can find just as many theologians who say just the opposite Richard.

Actually, you can not. Even the Roman Catholic church clearly states that the trinity is supported by the tradition of the church, more so than by Scripture, and, they say this rather openly. I have posted the details about this a number of times, and would be more than happy to do so again. In genral, theolgians are in agreement that there is no direct teaching of the trinity dogma in Scripture.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

I have posted the above about a dozen times, and no one cares. Such is life. I have posted many of the details about where the trinity came from; Plato, and how it entered into so-called Christianity. No one cares.

and from my research, those references include more than just a passage in Matthew.

Actually, no. You can not show me another verse in the Bible that has the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in it. All other verses which people use to show the trinity have only the Father and the Son in them; two, does not equal three.

Jesus Christ did not teach the trinity. If you do not agree with that, show me where he CLEARLY did, and I will change. On the other hand, I can show you a large number of verses where he stated that he does the will of his Father, and, that the Father is greater than he is.

Now, rather than argue with me about it, please google DID JESUS CHRIST TEACH THE TRINITY and read away. I did, and it is quite enlightening. I was particularly taken with how the Muslims use the trinity to block any of their people from thinking about Christianity, and if you can not see the work of Satan is such things, then so be it.

I have also posted, a number of times, the info about how Jesus is named in the Bible as the first born of creation; the first creation of Almighty God. And, I have had thrown at me where Jesus Christ is called God in the Bible, but always with the misquote that he is called Almighty God, which is not true. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus Christ called almighty; that is reserved solely for his Father.

Just as Jesus told Satan when Satan tempted him; you owe sacred service only to Jehovah God. Not to Jesus or to Satan or to anyone/anything else. Even the fact that Jesus was tempted should be enough to prove to you that he is not Almighty God; no one can tempt God; but they can tempt one of the creations of Almighty God.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   10:54:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 70.

#79. To: richard9151 (#70)

Actually, you can not.

Bullshit. All anyone has to do is google "The Trinity" to see what biblical passages Christian theologians use to come up with the doctrine of the Trinity. If you want to get all caught up on the word Trinity then that is your problem, not anyone else's. Both Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox Theologians believe the Trinity/triune God is inferred and have a plethora of biblical passages to back up their belief. Once again, a simple google search will show this. You are not required to agree with them. You have your opinion, they have theirs and all your jumping up and down and screaming "unbiblical, unbiblical, unbiblical" changes nothing. You claim your opinion is biblical, they claim theirs is.

The idea of the trinity was clearly around before the 4th century. The word Trinity was used first by Tertullian in the 2nd century. Even before that we know that the idea of the triune God was known to early Church because of the Didache and the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, and Irenaeus. Origen, Hippolytus, Novatian, Pope Dionysius, and Gregory the Wonderworker also discussed the Triune God. Novation's work, written in 235A.D. was even titled "Treatise on the Trinity."

By tradition, I assume you mean the writings of the early church. I find it interesting that you and others like you reject the writings of the early church but openly embrace the teachings of false prophets written 1600-2000 years after the death of Jesus.

Jesus Christ did not teach the trinity. If you do not agree with that, show me where he CLEARLY did, and I will change.

As John 21:25 clearly points out, Jesus said and did a lot of things we do not know of.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09 17:42:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 70.

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