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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Revelation 13:4
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 6, 2008
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2008-12-06 10:11:49 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1179
Comments: 81

Revelation 13:4

… At the same time, the Great War (World War I), as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion keep the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esme Wingfield-Stratford wrote; “it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of (their) overmastering unity and common trusteeship.” As events turned out, they did. In 1917, the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.

The world after the war was vastly different. Satan’s earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.

Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes; “The collapse of the old order (caused by the first world war) was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence.” Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the year 2005, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has “followed the wild beast with admiration.”

Mankind has even gone beyond admiring the wild beast, as John next states: “And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: ‘Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?’” (Revelation 13:4) While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world and refused to participate in the politics of that day. John later wrote of true Christians: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8; John 6:15; 14:30) Satan delegates power to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of goodly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship.

In what sense? In the sense of putting love of country ahead of love of God. Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong,” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship Jehovah God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon – the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael – his name meaning “Who Is Like God?” – as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven. – Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19:21. ....

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 75.

#1. To: richard9151, All (#0)

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. THe world belongs to God.

Acts 17:24

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

The rest, I wont bother with.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   10:33:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: PSUSA (#1)

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. THe world belongs to God.

Please be careful as to who you are calling a liar;

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says the apostle John. (1 John 5:19)

There is a reason that Jesus Christ did not partake of politics, and that reason is the Jehovah God is permitting man to learn what happens when we do not live according to His Word. I do understand that you are very confused on this issue, but you still need to be careful with your choices of words. When you make such statements, you show no fruitage of the spirit.

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   14:54:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: richard9151 (#7) (Edited)

Please be careful as to who you are calling a liar;

I am calling the author a liar. It is quite deliberate.

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” does not mean that satan owns the world. It means he controls it only to the degree that GOd allows. He cannot act without Gods' permission. The book of Job, for example.

When you make such statements, you show no fruitage of the spirit.

Fruitage?

I just call a spade a spade. The person that wrote that should have known better.

But he comes across with great authority to try and make himself look like he knows what he is talking about. Just like the other wolves do, he makes assertions without backing them up.

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23, NW.

I see nothing about tolerating lies or liars in there. Using your standards, Christ should have hugged the moneychangers instead of beating them with cords.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   15:21:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: PSUSA (#10)

But he comes across with great authority to try and make himself look like he knows what he is talking about.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and be more careful as to what you say, until you read something completely, and understand what you are reading.

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

It says nothing in there about Satan owning the world; it says exactly what is said in 1 John;

“the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”? (1 John 5:19)

And this is exactly what Jesus Christ was referring to as well, that Satan controlled the governments of man. Or, are you going to want to argue about that as well?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   15:29:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: richard9151 (#11)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

This is what the article said:

While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world

This is what I said:

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. The world belongs to God.

Satan can only do what he is allowed to do. Job, for example. God is soverign, not Satan.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   15:51:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: PSUSA (#12)

This is what I said:

That's a lie. He is the ruler of this age (aion), not of the world. The world belongs to God.

I would guess from this that someone, probably me, needs to explain to you what 'the world' is that is referred to in the Bible.

At John 3:16, 17, what “world” did God love so much, and what “world” did God send Jesus, not to judge, but to save?

In John’s account of Jesus’ life the English word “world” is translated from the Greek word kósmos, which occurs at least seventy-nine times in the original text of John’s account. Fundamentally, kósmos means “order,” that is, a constituted order, an arrangement, an ordering of things according to a certain design, an arrangement of things according to a certain pattern. I.e., governments.

I will post the entire piece so you can read it. Basically, unless you understand this, you can make no sense out of 'be in this world, but not OF this world,' or 'order of things.'

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   16:03:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: richard9151 (#13)

At John 3:16, 17, what “world” did God love so much, and what “world” did God send Jesus, not to judge, but to save?

In John’s account of Jesus’ life the English word “world” is translated from the Greek word kósmos, which occurs at least seventy-nine times in the original text of John’s account.

Really?

www.studylight.org/lex/gr...&book=joh&translation=str

tells it occurs 58 times in John, not "at least 79". And in just glancing thru all the times it occurs, it is translated as "world", not "Fundamentally, kósmos means “order,” that is, a constituted order, an arrangement, an ordering of things according to a certain design, an arrangement of things according to a certain pattern. I.e., governments. "

So you are now working your way towards showing that Christ did not came to save the world, like He plainly claimed He did, but only that he came to save certain people. Am I right?

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   17:08:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: PSUSA (#17)

but only that he came to save certain people. Am I right?

Did I say that, or, anything like it? This is how it is stated in the Bible;

Rev. 20:12, 13: “I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. . . . They were judged individually according to their deeds.”

Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   17:28:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: richard9151 (#21)

But I will take that a step further; are you of the opinion that you know who and how Almighty God is going to judge men? Are you absolutely sure that Hitler and Stalin, not to mention the Catholic Popes, will be resurrected to everlasting life?

All means all, except to theologians that try and explain away scriptures into fitting their personal doctrines.

God is judging His house now.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The rest get judged later.

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

Who, according to NT scripture, was the "worst sinner"? How long did it take to convert him?

And do you really think you are better than any of them? If I recall correctly, there are a few scriptures that have some things to say about pride. Break 1 law, you are guilty of all.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   18:23:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: PSUSA (#27)

Ah yes, the Hitler and Stalin argument. You threw in the popes too. You are the first one I have seen to include them.

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus.

The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   18:31:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: richard9151 (#29)

I asked a retorical question, as to if you know what Almighty God is going to do about certain personalities. I make no judgements, as it is not in my jurisdiction; NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!

I said he was going to judge them, Hitler, Stalin, popes, you, me, everyone.

You didnt ask a "rhetorical question", you tried to set a trap. You think that by asking about what you think of as extremely evil people will change anything? Who is it that makes the vessels of honor and dishonor? WHo makes peace and creates evil? God does it all, if you believe the scriptures.

Don't you know that we will judge angels? It is our job to judge righteous judgment.

You said:

"And the material I posted clearly states that everyone will be resurrected, and no one knows what decisions Almighty God is going to make as to if, why, when, or not, and that includes the Christ Jesus. "

If why when or not? Referring to what? Are you referring to "sentencing"? If so, David said that he would rather be judged my God rather than man. And David was no angel.

Then you said:

"The sad fact is that all you want to do is pick apart to start an argument instead of holding a beneficial discussion. "

You call it picking apart. I call it exposing lies. You seem to be upset that I am not just going along with what you are teaching, and that is not "beneficial" to you.

.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-06   19:01:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: PSUSA (#31)

Where did you read that the author wrote that Satan OWNED the world? This is what you are arguing about, and what YOU posted in your reply;

Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else, and I am not going to play that game. The above is where we were at, and you brought in the other. I then asked you if you thought, etc., a retorical question.

No traps. No nonsense. And, that was my question. Everything else I sent came directly from the official writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and is Scripturally sound.

And then you want to add; and that is not "beneficial" to you.

Are you waiting for me to pass the collection plate? In what way is it beneficial to me? Very, very strange how you add 2 and 2 to get 3.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-06   19:16:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: richard9151 (#32)

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else,

OK Richard. What point did I "lose"?

Tell me, so all can see that I lost.

.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   6:57:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: PSUSA (#42)

OK Richard. What point did I "lose"?

Sorry for the delay. Been working.

About how the word world is used in the Bible, in referencing worldly governments, organizations, and religions.

How did Jesus Christ refer to the world?

John 18:36 Jesus answered “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought . . . But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

Source is an interesting word. It clearly shows that Jesus was not referring to the earth, but just as I have posted about the use of the word world. He went on;

John 17:14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

Let me see, the world hated them. Are you now going to argue that this means that the earth hates the followers of Jesus Christ? Rather than the earthly organizations established and controlled by Satan? Course, I could point how that there is no anomosity shown amoung Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. It does seem that all of the anger is aimed directly at those who reject the religion of the world; i.e., those who do not accept hell, an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies (making a liar out of Almighty God), and, of course, the trinity.

Should we continue? Yes, lets.

10 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.

Need I define, Biblically, brother? Do I need to post that Almighty God is going to take out of all nations a people for his name? Do I need to post that Almighty God is not partial, but ALL that pratice righteousness will gain salvation, no matter their color or nationality?

1 Timothy 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

No? well, if need be, I can.

17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Does nuetrality need to be spelled out any clearer? How are you loving your brothers when you support the governments sending out men to kill them?

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

Seems pretty clear to me. Should I post the part about man can not even direct his own steps correctly?

I understand your problem; if you admit the use of the word world refers to organizations, governments and religions, then, no more politics. Shock! Horror! WHAT TO DO!!

Work for Jehovah God, just as the Witnesses do, 24/7. Always first in our minds.

Which brings to mind this Scripture;

. Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

I have news for you; this is happening right now, world wide, in more than 230 lands. Course, I understand, Obama is obviously much, much more important, cause if he were not there in DC, someone good would be........ right?

No matter who gets elected, nothing changes. And no one seems to be able to catch on that Almighty God is the only one with the solution.... well in hand.

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

As I said, seems pretty clear to me.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-08   20:19:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: richard9151 (#62)

Let me see, the world hated them. Are you now going to argue that this means that the earth hates the followers of Jesus Christ? Rather than the earthly organizations established and controlled by Satan? Course, I could point how that there is no anomosity shown amoung Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. It does seem that all of the anger is aimed directly at those who reject the religion of the world; i.e., those who do not accept hell, an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies (making a liar out of Almighty God), and, of course, the trinity.

I agree with all of that, except that Satan is not in ultimate control, he too fulfills a purpose that he was created for. I dont buy the nonsense that he chose to sin and became a really big fly in Gods' ointment.

Need I define, Biblically, brother? Do I need to post that Almighty God is going to take out of all nations a people for his name? Do I need to post that Almighty God is not partial, but ALL that pratice righteousness will gain salvation, no matter their color or nationality?

Nope. I agree with almost all of that. I agree with just about everything you posted. Only who gives a person the ABILITY to practice righteousness in the first place? We cant do it on our own power.

Where we differ is in the difference between the called and the chosen or elect, and their purposes and their fates. You do not take them into account. You simply annihilate the many. Scripture does not support that. YOu seem to forget that countless millions have never had a clue who Jesus was. What do the JW believe happens to them? They have to be accounted for.

THe parables talk about the kingdom. If you understand 1 parable, you understand them all, because they all talk about the many and the few, the called and the elect.

We also seem to differ on how the words "eternal", "everlasting", forever, etc were translated from a word that means something else.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   8:01:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: PSUSA (#65)

You simply annihilate the many. Scripture does not support that. YOu seem to forget that countless millions have never had a clue who Jesus was. What do the JW believe happens to them?

No, I do not. I have clearly stated at least twice that such decisions are to be made by Jehovah God and no one else. Not in my jurisdiction.

This is the official Jehovah's Witness position on the Resurrection;

Who Will Be Resurrected?

“The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out,” said Jesus. (John 5:28, 29) According to this promise, those in the memorial tombs—those who are in Jehovah’s memory—will be resurrected. The question, then, is, Of all those who have died, who actually are in God’s memory awaiting a resurrection?

The Bible book of Hebrews chapter 11 lists by name men and women who faithfully served God. They as well as those loyal servants of God who have died in recent years will be among the resurrected ones. What about people who failed to meet God’s standards of righteousness, perhaps because of a lack of knowledge? Are they also in God’s memory? Yes, many are, for the Bible promises: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Acts 24:15.

However, not everyone who has ever lived will receive a resurrection. “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,” states the Bible, “there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Some committed sins for which there is no forgiveness. They are not in Hades (mankind’s common grave) but in Gehenna, a symbolic place of eternal destruction. (Matthew 23:33) We must be careful, though, not to speculate on whether a certain person will be resurrected or not. This judgment belongs to God. He knows who is in Hades and who is in Gehenna. For our part, we do well to live our lives according to God’s will.

I have told you before about this; there is going to be a general resurrection, but you insist on returning to what you believe about the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than listen. Now, if there something else you wish to argue about in the above statement?

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   11:02:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: richard9151 (#72)

“The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out,” said Jesus. (John 5:28, 29) According to this promise, those in the memorial tombs—t

Now, if there something else you wish to argue about in the above statement?

I am sure I can come up with something...

Where do you get this "memorial" tombs nonsense? There is no "memorial" there.

Here is what John 5:28-29 says

Marvel (5720) not at this: for the hour is coming (5736) , in the which all that are in the graves shall hear (5695) his voice, And shall come forth (5695) ; they that have done (5660) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (5660) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

"Damnation" is just another word for judgment. Look it up. It says nothing about the sentence.

1. a separating, sundering, separation 1. a trial, contest 2. selection 3. judgment 1. opinion or decision given concerning anything 1. esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong 2. sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment 4. the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem) 5. right, justice

All graves will be opened.

When I said "you" annihilate those that Christ didn't choose in this life I meant your JW doctrines. But I think you know that already.

If you have read the scriptures 10% as much as you claim you do, then you know that no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws (drags) him. Does that now make God a respecter of persons? Nope. There is a SCRIPTURAL answer, do you know what it is?

However, not everyone who has ever lived will receive a resurrection. “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,” states the Bible, “there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Some committed sins for which there is no forgiveness. They are not in Hades (mankind’s common grave) but in Gehenna, a symbolic place of eternal destruction. (Matthew 23:33) We must be careful, though, not to speculate on whether a certain person will be resurrected or not. This judgment belongs to God. He knows who is in Hades and who is in Gehenna. For our part, we do well to live our lives according to God’s will.

Complete and utter nonsense.

Judgment =/= sentence. Again, "eternal" does not mean "eternal" as in without time. Look it up.

Gehenna was a trash dump. It's not burning anymore. Once the garbage is gone, that's it. Now does that garbage speak of people, or their sins? What does fire symbolize in scripture? Who gets tried by fire? We all do.

but you insist on returning to what you believe about the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than listen.

No, all I go off of is what you post. I dont know much about JW except they can be a PITA when they come to the door or when they try to convince me that black is white.

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   11:25:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 75.

#76. To: PSUSA (#75)

Complete and utter nonsense.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09 12:31:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 75.

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