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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Revelation 13:4
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 6, 2008
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2008-12-06 10:11:49 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1203
Comments: 81

Revelation 13:4

… At the same time, the Great War (World War I), as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion keep the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esme Wingfield-Stratford wrote; “it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of (their) overmastering unity and common trusteeship.” As events turned out, they did. In 1917, the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.

The world after the war was vastly different. Satan’s earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.

Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes; “The collapse of the old order (caused by the first world war) was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence.” Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the year 2005, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has “followed the wild beast with admiration.”

Mankind has even gone beyond admiring the wild beast, as John next states: “And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: ‘Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?’” (Revelation 13:4) While Jesus was here on earth, Satan claimed to have authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus did not dispute this; in fact, he himself referred to Satan as the ruler of the world and refused to participate in the politics of that day. John later wrote of true Christians: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8; John 6:15; 14:30) Satan delegates power to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of goodly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship.

In what sense? In the sense of putting love of country ahead of love of God. Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong,” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship Jehovah God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon – the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael – his name meaning “Who Is Like God?” – as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, Christ Jesus will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven. – Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19:21. ....

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#42. To: richard9151 (#32)

You are nothing but a typical debater who, if he loses a point, simply ignores that and goes on the attack about something else,

OK Richard. What point did I "lose"?

Tell me, so all can see that I lost.

.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   6:57:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: richard9151 (#36)

I am not capable of writing the pieces I post, which are so Scripturally sound that they can not be qustioned,

That is hilarious.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   7:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: noone222 (#41)

THat is all something we can take to heart, including me. You said it well.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   7:07:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: PSUSA (#44)

I wasn't aiming in your direction ! I have done the zealous teacher routine myself and when I realized how little I truly know, which increases with everything more I learn, and when I considered that I might tell someone something that could be in error sending them in the wrong direction or into the abyss, I quit it.

My responses to Richard are created by his know it all attitude and not so subtle presentation. Go and sin no more is a lot different than your ass is going to hell.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   8:42:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rowdee (#38)

You'd do much better just to let people see your actions, i.e., your head spent over YOUR bible, or watchiing you in prayer.

They do.... here. Which is why I have so many friends.... here. And no one watches me pray unless I am asked to say a prayer in the congregation.

Where do you want your little merit badge?

Sorry. Have no interest in merit badges or in glory from men. I just have a real problem with deliberate, self-imposed ignorance.

is nothing like you in attitude, or should I say, perceived attitude?

Perceived attitude is correct, because you have never talked with me, and, never will. After I spend the time that I do on subjects, clearing the extra material out of my head and finding what I consider to be a Truth, I admit that it is hard for me to understand how others can not do the same -- given that there is only one Truth on any subject -- and yes, I consider myself to be right, or, I WOULD CONTINUE TO SEARCH. I also ask for correction, but that does not mean posting a couple of verses on something and thinking that this is going to change my mind.

There are many things in the Bible that are not open to debate, but still people wish to debate them. Why? Because they were TOLD that such and such is how it is, end of subject, and they accept that.

That is a complete denial of personel responsibility, to do the work and the study on your own, and that is stupidity at its worst. Just my opinion, you understand.

I wonder what it is about people in America. There are 168 hours in a week, and they can not spend the time to study the Bible for ONE HOUR A WEEK!! Just to learn what it really says. Amazing. Is the TV really that important!? Which brings us back to your Jehovah's Witness friend. Yes, she is your friend, but I bet you do not study the Bible with her, do you.

And yes, I am much blunter than most Jehovah's Witnesses. I also admit that. I also admit that when I visit with people face to face, I am different, but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects, and with Americans in general, again on most subjects, is ample evidence of why I live elsewhere, is it not?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:23:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: noone222, rowdee (#39)

It just makes the learning a little hard to take when it's being force fed to ya by an 800 pound angelic gorilla.

Please, permit me to repeat what I have said before. No one requires either of you to read a single thing that I post. Period. That pretty much says it all as far as I am concerned. How about you two?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: noone222 (#45)

I wasn't aiming in your direction !

I know that. But it still is true. I knew what you meant, and it applies to me also.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   9:35:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: richard9151 (#46)

After I spend the time that I do on subjects, clearing the extra material out of my head and finding what I consider to be a Truth, I admit that it is hard for me to understand how others can not do the same -- given that there is only one Truth on any subject -- and yes, I consider myself to be right

Well, if the best you can do is latch on to the doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesses after all of that study and clearing of the bullshit in your head ... your condition is hopeless.

Of course, there is grace, but let's don't go there either or we'll have to have an argument over whether grace or works is paramount to salvation. This is another persistent debate without satisfactory conclusions ever drawn.

If you re-read your post to Rowdee and can't see your own arrogance then you're more like a vampire incapable of seeing his own reflection in a mirror.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:41:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: richard9151 (#46)

but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects,

Yes, we are soooooo ignorant on most subjects. LOL!

Richard, you are digging yourself into a pit here. Take a deep breath and walk away from it until you calm down. You are looking like a fool.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   9:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: PSUSA (#50)

but the general ignorance in the 4um on most subjects,

Richard, you are digging yourself into a pit here.

It's apparent that Richard sees everyone else as fools, and feels uncontrollably compelled to inform them of their complete ignorance, repetitively, or until they agree with him.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#40)

The Lord God has allowed Satan to operate within the limits or boundries HE set. Satan's domain or control is only over unbelievers.

Of course Almighty God did exactly as you say. And what did Jesus Christ say about the world and about believers?

“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”—JOHN 17:16.

This is why it is so important to understand in what context the word world is used in the Bible. Jesus went even further;

“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (John 18:36)

Again, it is important to understand how the word world is used; to denote organizations and governments, of this world. Until people make this destinction, it is hard for them to understand how to be in this world, but not OF this world. Again, we can add to our understanding with the following;

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

World, again, being in reference to organizations, such as corporations, Babylonish religions, and governments.

I truly find it hard to understand, when people see so-called religious leaders consorting with world rulers/leaders, promoting wars 'for god and country,' and flying a national flag within or outside of their church, how people reconcile this with what Jesus Christ taught.

It was when I got to this point, long before I met my first Jehovah's Witness, that I began to see a distinction between believers, and, unbelievers.

Jesus told his followers: “If you love me, you will observe my commandments. He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me.” (John 14:15, 21)

Are the attractions of the world that compelling, that we can not show our love for Jesus Christ by being nuetral in a 'world' under control of the wicked one?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   9:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: richard9151 (#52) (Edited)

Are the attractions of the world that compelling, that we can not show our love for Jesus Christ by being nuetral in a 'world' under control of the wicked one?

"I wert that you were hot or cold ... but you were (lukewarm) neutral so I spewed you from my mouth".

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   9:53:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: noone222, rowdee, *Bible facts* (#41)

An argument over the trinity is absolute nonsense and a complete waste of time, though it has been debated for millenium by the most ardent students of scripture. They're all dead and the debate continues.

Is it? For them, maybe, but not for eveyone alive today.

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

If you actually believe that these kinds of questions are of no value, then you have no understanding of the Bible. The Bible is very, very clear on this; knowledge is essential to Salvation.

Here are the trinity facts, from the Bible.

None.

There is ONE VERSE in the Bible, where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned TOGETHER. That is the Baptism verse;

Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the consummation of the system of things.” (Matt. 28:18-20)

That's it. Every other verse in the Bible that has been thrown at me as 'proof' of the trinity mentions just two; Jehovah, and His Son. Period.

I have posted everything I could find that shows the roots of the trinity in Babylon, and, how the Roman church OPENLY admits that its tradition is the real reason for the trinity. And you will accept that over the Bible. And you wonder why I do not put much stock in what you say?

And then you add;

Peter stated quite plainly that we are to observe God's Laws not man's.

Really? As opposed to what?

In Romans 13:5 the apostle Paul calls attention to this the best motive, saying: “There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.” The wrath against wrongdoing is expressed directly by the earthly “authority.” But as the authority is God’s minister in a right direction, it is also God’s wrath indirectly. The person who disregards or opposes the “superior authorities” on earth is taking a stand against God’s arrangement and deserves God’s wrath also. No one enjoys punishment; but by avoiding it for conscience’ sake the Christians avoid not only outside trouble but also inward trouble from a guilty conscience.

With true Christians fear is not the main motive for being law-abiding and orderly, but their conscience is. So in their case subjection to superior authorities is not conscienceless. It is not just a patriotism. As their conscience is instructed in God’s Word, the Holy Bible, it does not let them subject themselves to earthly superior authorities in everything, say in cases where what the imperfect authorities think is right clashes with God’s commandments through Christ. This may result in suffering unjust punishment at the hands of the authorities; but thus we see how with Christians conscience is a compelling reason, since it forces them to obey God although this brings undeserved suffering upon them. If they had no enlightened conscience, they would sidestep such suffering for the sake of personal convenience. If, though, for conscience they undergo outward suffering at the hands of the superior authorities, they keep themselves free from inward suffering; their consciences do not smite them.

Again, this is something that the Bible is VERY clear on, just as Christ Jesus was. But you know better, right?

And then you say;

I am content to develop my own beliefs through study

But the Bible says;

“As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens the wits of another.” (Proverbs 27:17, The New English Bible) At times, our spiritual “wits,” that is, our spiritual knowledge and insight, need to be honed. But just as sharpening a literal knife requires skill and the correct tools, so you need to associate with the right people, those who have the ability to “impart some spiritual gift to you.”—Romans 1:11.

Want me to explain the above to you, noone? A for instance is about the trinity, and taking in accurate knowledge of God and of His Son, Jesus Christ, that you might gain eternal life. Another part of it is actually considering what information is brought to you, instead of dismissing it out of hand simply because it does not follow you traditions. I have also posted most of what Jesus Christ had to say about the traditions of man. I would be happy to do so again if you so wish.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-07   10:13:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: richard9151 (#54)

In Romans 13:5 the apostle Paul calls attention to this the best motive, saying: “There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.” The wrath against wrongdoing is expressed directly by the earthly “authority.” But as the authority is God’s minister in a right direction, it is also God’s wrath indirectly. The person who disregards or opposes the “superior authorities” on earth is taking a stand against God’s arrangement and deserves God’s wrath also. No one enjoys punishment; but by avoiding it for conscience’ sake the Christians avoid not only outside trouble but also inward trouble from a guilty conscience.

And how do the little children avoid the undeserved "PUNISHMENT" dealt them by a government supported by those that think like you and Paul ?

Romans 13 is difficult to say the least. How does Romans 13 correspond to Nehemiah 5 or to the time when the Hebrew women refused to abort the Hebrew male babies after Pharoah demanded it ?

Paul was a Jew, a highly trained Pharisee, trained at the feet of Gamaliel, he was a Roman, and a murderer of Christians. I think the admonishment of Jesus referencing the fruit of the tree is sufficient to express my personal opinion of Paul and Romans 13. Herein lies another argument that could go on forever.

I don't suppose there's any chance you could go to another planet and preach, is there ???

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   10:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: noone222 (#55)

Arent you glad the founders didnt see Romans 13 this way?

It's amazing how much evil can be justified by pulling out this chapter, unless you actually read it and understand it. In fact, DHS is counting on this very chapter and this very book to be used to keep the dumbasses in line when martial law or any other disturbance threatens the .gov

For rulers are (5748) not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou (5719) then not be afraid (5738) of the power? do (5720) that which is good, and thou shalt have (5692) praise of the same:

And now, as then, our "rulers" ARE a terror to good works, and therefore deserve their forced removal IMO.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-07   10:49:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: richard9151 (#46)

I wonder what it is about people in America. There are 168 hours in a week, and they can not spend the time to study the Bible for ONE HOUR A WEEK!! Just to learn what it really says. Amazing. Is the TV really that important!? Which brings us back to your Jehovah's Witness friend. Yes, she is your friend, but I bet you do not study the Bible with her, do you.

What an arrogant, prideful, judgmental asshole you are, richard. You are constantly writing as though no one but you and your jw friends do anything with the Bible. Take your pride and shove it.........because God surely will....if the Bible is to be believed, and it is! He hates pride. He hates boasting. And judgmental--enjoy yourself.

And no, I do not sit and study the Bible with her. Absolutely not. Of what use is it to study with someone who uses a bible which no knows who translated it, what his/her/its cv is, yada yada. And if it is anything like Russell himself as a part or all of the translator, I wouldn't even care to hold it in my hands.

rowdee  posted on  2008-12-07   12:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: noone222 (#41)

I have witnessed 1st hand on many occasions interested and inquisitive people get completely turned off to scripture because of the actions and statements made by the hypocrites and tyrants claiming to teach it.

Thanks to you, noone, for your complete comment--so much more thoughtful and coherent than what I could have said.

The quote I cited above is what grieves me---the thought of someone losing out on Jesus Christs' good news.

And as it regards taking more than one lifetime to gain the most of scriptures, I would tend to agree with you. I find myself rushing along in reading--almost a frantic fear of not being able to learn more, or the most important of the more. And kicking myself in the butt, time after time, because I turned my back on God so long ago and suffered my 40 years in the wilderness experience.

rowdee  posted on  2008-12-07   12:36:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: rowdee (#58)

Thank you, Rowdee.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-07   14:46:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: richard9151 (#30) (Edited)

One last item to remember on this point: we have no record of either John or any other member of the early Church writing to instruct the Church that the events prophesied in the New Testament surrounding the return of Christ ever came to pass in 70 AD. If those events did come to pass, then the Church was left with no instruction regarding that fact.

I forgot about this post...I had an errand to run and then went to bed. I see it's grown quite a bit since then. I haven't read all the responses, but this caught my eye since it was bolded.

A possible reason for that is that all members of the early church had either been killed, or left when they saw the city was surrounded by armies, as they had been instructed by Jesus to do, and they didn't see what happened. The way I understand it, they went into hiding. It IS recorded that no Christians were killed in the destruction of Jerusalem.

It appears that Jesus told the disciples that they all would die before He came back in judgment, except that at least one would perhaps live a little longer than the others. Perhaps that was John the revelator? I don't know.

Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jhn 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

Jhn 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]?

Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Jhn 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?

Jhn 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=21&v=23#23

Maybe he died, maybe he was raptured :)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...m?b=1Th&c=4&v=15&t=KJV#15

[at any rate, it doesn't seem anyone was around to write a postscript....or no Christians, that is...Josephus, a Pharisee, wrote plenty. http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/ http://www.preteristarchive.com/...timeline_theological.html ]

I'll try to get back to this. more errands to do.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2008-12-07   19:33:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: rowdee (#57)

And no, I do not sit and study the Bible with her. Absolutely not. Of what use is it to study with someone who uses a bible which no knows who translated it, what his/her/its cv is, yada yada. And if it is anything like Russell himself as a part or all of the translator, I wouldn't even care to hold it in my hands.

No, I did not think so. After all, when you study together, why would you try and help her to understand, right?

And do not start in about the Bibles; I used a King James throughout my studies with the Witnesses, and they do not care what Bible you use! Talk about conceited! And it is really nice to see what you truly think of 'your friend.'

I checked verses from 5 different OF MY BIBLES, against the one Gray, my friend, was using, and there is no difference. But that is all right, just go on believing what you are told instead of bothering to learn for yourself.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-08   14:26:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: PSUSA (#42)

OK Richard. What point did I "lose"?

Sorry for the delay. Been working.

About how the word world is used in the Bible, in referencing worldly governments, organizations, and religions.

How did Jesus Christ refer to the world?

John 18:36 Jesus answered “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought . . . But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

Source is an interesting word. It clearly shows that Jesus was not referring to the earth, but just as I have posted about the use of the word world. He went on;

John 17:14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

Let me see, the world hated them. Are you now going to argue that this means that the earth hates the followers of Jesus Christ? Rather than the earthly organizations established and controlled by Satan? Course, I could point how that there is no anomosity shown amoung Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. It does seem that all of the anger is aimed directly at those who reject the religion of the world; i.e., those who do not accept hell, an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies (making a liar out of Almighty God), and, of course, the trinity.

Should we continue? Yes, lets.

10 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.

Need I define, Biblically, brother? Do I need to post that Almighty God is going to take out of all nations a people for his name? Do I need to post that Almighty God is not partial, but ALL that pratice righteousness will gain salvation, no matter their color or nationality?

1 Timothy 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

No? well, if need be, I can.

17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Does nuetrality need to be spelled out any clearer? How are you loving your brothers when you support the governments sending out men to kill them?

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

Seems pretty clear to me. Should I post the part about man can not even direct his own steps correctly?

I understand your problem; if you admit the use of the word world refers to organizations, governments and religions, then, no more politics. Shock! Horror! WHAT TO DO!!

Work for Jehovah God, just as the Witnesses do, 24/7. Always first in our minds.

Which brings to mind this Scripture;

. Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

I have news for you; this is happening right now, world wide, in more than 230 lands. Course, I understand, Obama is obviously much, much more important, cause if he were not there in DC, someone good would be........ right?

No matter who gets elected, nothing changes. And no one seems to be able to catch on that Almighty God is the only one with the solution.... well in hand.

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)

As I said, seems pretty clear to me.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-08   20:19:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: noone222 (#49)

Well, if the best you can do is latch on to the doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesses after all of that study and clearing of the bullshit in your head ...

Short term memory problems, ummm, noone? So let me, for about the 5th or 6th time, spell it out for you.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. A willing follower. I follow what he, the Greatest Teacher who ever lived, taught. Nothing more, and, nothing less. The only organization that I have ever found that does the same thing..... is the Jehovah's Witnesses. They changed NOTHING in my general understanding of the Bible; it was more like coming home. They did, certainly, help me to understand much, much better, but that was all.

OK, got it?

Just in case you do not, carefully read the following;

Does the Bible Support the Idea of the Trinity?

http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html

While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?

The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’

The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’

Protestant theologian Karl Barth as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976 similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’

-----------------------------------------------

Now that we are past that, I will not, and have never accepted anything that was not taught by the Greatest Man who ever lived. End of story.

But perhaps this makes the difference between you and me a little clearer, what?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   0:35:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: richard9151 (#63)

So let me, for about the 5th or 6th time, spell it out for you.

Please, spell it our for someone else.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-09   1:29:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: richard9151 (#62)

Let me see, the world hated them. Are you now going to argue that this means that the earth hates the followers of Jesus Christ? Rather than the earthly organizations established and controlled by Satan? Course, I could point how that there is no anomosity shown amoung Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. It does seem that all of the anger is aimed directly at those who reject the religion of the world; i.e., those who do not accept hell, an eternal soul that lives on after the body dies (making a liar out of Almighty God), and, of course, the trinity.

I agree with all of that, except that Satan is not in ultimate control, he too fulfills a purpose that he was created for. I dont buy the nonsense that he chose to sin and became a really big fly in Gods' ointment.

Need I define, Biblically, brother? Do I need to post that Almighty God is going to take out of all nations a people for his name? Do I need to post that Almighty God is not partial, but ALL that pratice righteousness will gain salvation, no matter their color or nationality?

Nope. I agree with almost all of that. I agree with just about everything you posted. Only who gives a person the ABILITY to practice righteousness in the first place? We cant do it on our own power.

Where we differ is in the difference between the called and the chosen or elect, and their purposes and their fates. You do not take them into account. You simply annihilate the many. Scripture does not support that. YOu seem to forget that countless millions have never had a clue who Jesus was. What do the JW believe happens to them? They have to be accounted for.

THe parables talk about the kingdom. If you understand 1 parable, you understand them all, because they all talk about the many and the few, the called and the elect.

We also seem to differ on how the words "eternal", "everlasting", forever, etc were translated from a word that means something else.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   8:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: richard9151, noone222 (#63) (Edited)

http://www.2001translation.com/Trinity.html

While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?

The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: ‘Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.’

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.’

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: ‘Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.’

The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.’

Protestant theologian Karl Barth as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976 similarly states: ‘The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.’

And you can find just as many theologians who say just the opposite Richard. You've done nothing more than pick and choose those who agree with your interpretation. As I've stated a million times, it's all about interpretation, i.e. opinion, which makes it all bullshit. No one has a clue as to what the truth is.

You claim it's not biblical, but those that believe in it have specific biblical references they use for their belief's, and from my research, those references include more than just a passage in Matthew. Now you may reject those references and interpretations (opinions) and that's fine, but it's nothing more than your interpretation (opinion) against theirs. You claiming their beliefs is not biblical means nothing to those who believe it because you are a no one to those people, in the same way that they are no one to you.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09   8:10:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: PSUSA (#65)

that Satan....was created

There's the simple answer. The creator ALWAYS controls the created.

Richard is simply an argumentative asshole that became a Christian, in his own little pea brain.

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-09   8:17:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: noone222, PSUSA, Richard (#67)

Richard is simply an argumentative asshole that became a Christian, in his own little pea brain.

There are millions of people like Richard who use their religious beliefs as a way of putting themselves above others, at least in their minds. You see it in the many posts where he claims that those who do not agree with him do not know what they are speaking of or when he claims that he has knowledge that others do not or that his biblical knowledge is superior to others that disagree with him.

I chaulk it up to a low self-esteem.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09   9:22:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: noone222, All (#67)

Richard is simply an argumentative asshole that became a Christian, in his own little pea brain.

I agree with that because I used to do the same things and I was an argumentative pea brained asshole too. Who knows, maybe I still am. I tried to get people to believe churchianities lies and if I wasn't able to do that, my ego demanded that I continue digging myself in deeper and deeper. I just wanted to "win" the argument, just for winnings sake. I cringe when I think of the things I have said, because I know how wrong they were.

I still confront people when they start up with the "believe as I do or burn forever" nonsense, but I do it with a different goal in mind. There's no room for ego in this.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   9:38:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Hayek Fan (#66)

And you can find just as many theologians who say just the opposite Richard.

Actually, you can not. Even the Roman Catholic church clearly states that the trinity is supported by the tradition of the church, more so than by Scripture, and, they say this rather openly. I have posted the details about this a number of times, and would be more than happy to do so again. In genral, theolgians are in agreement that there is no direct teaching of the trinity dogma in Scripture.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

I have posted the above about a dozen times, and no one cares. Such is life. I have posted many of the details about where the trinity came from; Plato, and how it entered into so-called Christianity. No one cares.

and from my research, those references include more than just a passage in Matthew.

Actually, no. You can not show me another verse in the Bible that has the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in it. All other verses which people use to show the trinity have only the Father and the Son in them; two, does not equal three.

Jesus Christ did not teach the trinity. If you do not agree with that, show me where he CLEARLY did, and I will change. On the other hand, I can show you a large number of verses where he stated that he does the will of his Father, and, that the Father is greater than he is.

Now, rather than argue with me about it, please google DID JESUS CHRIST TEACH THE TRINITY and read away. I did, and it is quite enlightening. I was particularly taken with how the Muslims use the trinity to block any of their people from thinking about Christianity, and if you can not see the work of Satan is such things, then so be it.

I have also posted, a number of times, the info about how Jesus is named in the Bible as the first born of creation; the first creation of Almighty God. And, I have had thrown at me where Jesus Christ is called God in the Bible, but always with the misquote that he is called Almighty God, which is not true. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus Christ called almighty; that is reserved solely for his Father.

Just as Jesus told Satan when Satan tempted him; you owe sacred service only to Jehovah God. Not to Jesus or to Satan or to anyone/anything else. Even the fact that Jesus was tempted should be enough to prove to you that he is not Almighty God; no one can tempt God; but they can tempt one of the creations of Almighty God.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   10:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: PSUSA (#69)

I agree with that because I used to do the same things and I was an argumentative pea brained asshole too.

Me three !

They call it the AMERIKAN DREAM because you have to be asleep (and you are) to believe it !

noone222  posted on  2008-12-09   11:00:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: PSUSA (#65)

You simply annihilate the many. Scripture does not support that. YOu seem to forget that countless millions have never had a clue who Jesus was. What do the JW believe happens to them?

No, I do not. I have clearly stated at least twice that such decisions are to be made by Jehovah God and no one else. Not in my jurisdiction.

This is the official Jehovah's Witness position on the Resurrection;

Who Will Be Resurrected?

“The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out,” said Jesus. (John 5:28, 29) According to this promise, those in the memorial tombs—those who are in Jehovah’s memory—will be resurrected. The question, then, is, Of all those who have died, who actually are in God’s memory awaiting a resurrection?

The Bible book of Hebrews chapter 11 lists by name men and women who faithfully served God. They as well as those loyal servants of God who have died in recent years will be among the resurrected ones. What about people who failed to meet God’s standards of righteousness, perhaps because of a lack of knowledge? Are they also in God’s memory? Yes, many are, for the Bible promises: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Acts 24:15.

However, not everyone who has ever lived will receive a resurrection. “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,” states the Bible, “there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Some committed sins for which there is no forgiveness. They are not in Hades (mankind’s common grave) but in Gehenna, a symbolic place of eternal destruction. (Matthew 23:33) We must be careful, though, not to speculate on whether a certain person will be resurrected or not. This judgment belongs to God. He knows who is in Hades and who is in Gehenna. For our part, we do well to live our lives according to God’s will.

I have told you before about this; there is going to be a general resurrection, but you insist on returning to what you believe about the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than listen. Now, if there something else you wish to argue about in the above statement?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   11:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: noone222 (#67)

that became a Christian,

Actually, technically, I am not a Christian. Which you should have understood from my postings about the Roman church.

232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"53 Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."54

Christianity was created by the Roman church, which gives them a right to define it, as they clearly do in their Catechism. This is why Mormons are not considered Christian; they reject the trinity.

I am a follower of The Way, the way of the truth, a follower of Jesus Christ.

See Acts 9:2; Acts 9:19, 2 Peter 2:2.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   11:09:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Hayek Fan (#68)

I chaulk it up to a low self-esteem.

LOL!! That's funny!! Obviously, you have no idea of what you speak!

or that his biblical knowledge is superior

I have stated many times in my posts that I am finally relieved to be associating with a group of people who understand more about the Bible than I do. If you do not understand what I am talking about, think, Jehovah's Witnesses. It is extremely rewarding to be able to associate with people who have spent 40 or 50 years reading and discussing the Bible, and, who freely share that they have learned. And who demonstrate such love among themselves.

If you do not understand what that means, I would be more than happy to post the Sripture that details it.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   11:15:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: richard9151 (#72)

“The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out,” said Jesus. (John 5:28, 29) According to this promise, those in the memorial tombs—t

Now, if there something else you wish to argue about in the above statement?

I am sure I can come up with something...

Where do you get this "memorial" tombs nonsense? There is no "memorial" there.

Here is what John 5:28-29 says

Marvel (5720) not at this: for the hour is coming (5736) , in the which all that are in the graves shall hear (5695) his voice, And shall come forth (5695) ; they that have done (5660) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (5660) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

"Damnation" is just another word for judgment. Look it up. It says nothing about the sentence.

1. a separating, sundering, separation 1. a trial, contest 2. selection 3. judgment 1. opinion or decision given concerning anything 1. esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong 2. sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment 4. the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem) 5. right, justice

All graves will be opened.

When I said "you" annihilate those that Christ didn't choose in this life I meant your JW doctrines. But I think you know that already.

If you have read the scriptures 10% as much as you claim you do, then you know that no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws (drags) him. Does that now make God a respecter of persons? Nope. There is a SCRIPTURAL answer, do you know what it is?

However, not everyone who has ever lived will receive a resurrection. “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,” states the Bible, “there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Some committed sins for which there is no forgiveness. They are not in Hades (mankind’s common grave) but in Gehenna, a symbolic place of eternal destruction. (Matthew 23:33) We must be careful, though, not to speculate on whether a certain person will be resurrected or not. This judgment belongs to God. He knows who is in Hades and who is in Gehenna. For our part, we do well to live our lives according to God’s will.

Complete and utter nonsense.

Judgment =/= sentence. Again, "eternal" does not mean "eternal" as in without time. Look it up.

Gehenna was a trash dump. It's not burning anymore. Once the garbage is gone, that's it. Now does that garbage speak of people, or their sins? What does fire symbolize in scripture? Who gets tried by fire? We all do.

but you insist on returning to what you believe about the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than listen.

No, all I go off of is what you post. I dont know much about JW except they can be a PITA when they come to the door or when they try to convince me that black is white.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   11:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: PSUSA (#75)

Complete and utter nonsense.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2008-12-09   12:31:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: richard9151 (#76)

And that says nothing about the sentence, only about the judgment which we all face.

Nowhere does it say anything about annihilation.

And what about those that have never heard? You still, as a JW, haven't accounted for them. That is a lot of people, a lot of loose ends...

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   12:49:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: richard9151 (#76) (Edited)

Where do you get this "memorial" tombs nonsense? There is no "memorial" there.

Well?????

If you have read the scriptures 10% as much as you claim you do, then you know that no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws (drags) him. Does that now make God a respecter of persons? Nope. There is a SCRIPTURAL answer, do you know what it is?

Well???????????

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-09   12:50:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: richard9151 (#70)

Actually, you can not.

Bullshit. All anyone has to do is google "The Trinity" to see what biblical passages Christian theologians use to come up with the doctrine of the Trinity. If you want to get all caught up on the word Trinity then that is your problem, not anyone else's. Both Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox Theologians believe the Trinity/triune God is inferred and have a plethora of biblical passages to back up their belief. Once again, a simple google search will show this. You are not required to agree with them. You have your opinion, they have theirs and all your jumping up and down and screaming "unbiblical, unbiblical, unbiblical" changes nothing. You claim your opinion is biblical, they claim theirs is.

The idea of the trinity was clearly around before the 4th century. The word Trinity was used first by Tertullian in the 2nd century. Even before that we know that the idea of the triune God was known to early Church because of the Didache and the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, and Irenaeus. Origen, Hippolytus, Novatian, Pope Dionysius, and Gregory the Wonderworker also discussed the Triune God. Novation's work, written in 235A.D. was even titled "Treatise on the Trinity."

By tradition, I assume you mean the writings of the early church. I find it interesting that you and others like you reject the writings of the early church but openly embrace the teachings of false prophets written 1600-2000 years after the death of Jesus.

Jesus Christ did not teach the trinity. If you do not agree with that, show me where he CLEARLY did, and I will change.

As John 21:25 clearly points out, Jesus said and did a lot of things we do not know of.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09   17:42:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: PSUSA (#78)

Where do you get this "memorial" tombs nonsense? There is no "memorial" there.

Well?????

I'm not sure what text he uses. On another thread he mentioned something about "source" but when I looked up the passage he quoted on Biblegateway.com, none of the 20 different online Bible texts matched his. My guess is that it's some JW Bible.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2008-12-09   17:47:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Hayek Fan (#80)

My guess is that it's some JW Bible.

I think he said earlier that its the only one he uses. IIRC it's the "new world" translation

I'd like to see him answer my questions for a change. But I know how these conversations go. Instead of admitting that he doesn't know the answers, just like none of us knows all the answers, the questions get ignored.

What's the harm in saying "I dont know"? I do it all the time. Faking it is stupid.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

PSUSA  posted on  2008-12-10   10:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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