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Title: New ignition lock laws aim to foil drunk drivers
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URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102 ... i_legislation_ignition_locks_4
Published: Jan 2, 2009
Author: MICHAEL TARM
Post Date: 2009-01-02 14:59:31 by Jethro Tull
Keywords: None
Views: 1251
Comments: 150
CHICAGO – Motorists convicted of driving drunk will have to install breath-monitoring gadgets in their cars under new laws taking effect in six states this week. The ignition interlocks prevent engines from starting until drivers blow into the alcohol detectors to prove they're sober. Alaska, Colorado, Illinois, Nebraska and Washington state began Jan. 1 requiring the devices for all motorists convicted of first-time drunken driving. South Carolina began requiring them for repeat offenders. Mothers Against Drunk Driving has been conducting a nationwide campaign to mandate ignition locks for anyone convicted of drunken driving, claiming doing so would save thousands of lives. But critics say interlocks could lead to measures that restrict alcohol policies too much. Users must pay for the fist-sized devices, which in Illinois cost around $80 to install on dashboards and $80 a month to rent; there's also a $30 monthly state fee. And they require periodic retesting while the car is running. "It's amazingly inconvenient," said David Malham, of the Illinois chapter of MADD. "But the flip side of the inconvenience is death." Other states with similar laws include New Mexico, Arizona and Louisiana. Most other states give judges the option of forcing convicted drunk drivers to use the devices. In practice though, they are rarely ordered unless laws mandate them, according to MADD. Until now, that's been true in Illinois, said MADD national CEO Chuck Hurley. "Illinois has excellent law enforcement," he said. "But the judicial system leaks like a sieve. This law will change the catch and release system to one where people are at least caught and tagged." In Illinois, the interlocks are mandated only for the five to 11 months licenses are suspended with a first DUI. Drivers can opt not to install them, but then would be banned from driving during the suspension period. Motorists in Colorado get a similar choice — install the devices or get a longer suspension. The law taking effect in Washington state actually relaxes penalties on drunk drivers, allowing them to avoid a previously mandatory license suspension by getting an interlock. The bill's author, Rep. Roger Goodman, said too many motorists were driving with suspended licenses. Motorists could try to skirt the devices by, say, having someone else blow into the detector or driving someone else's car. But if caught trying to circumvent the interlocks, they could go to jail. Within a year, up to 30,000 first-time offenders in Illinois could be using them, state officials estimate. New Mexico was the first state to mandate the devices in 2005. Since then, according to MADD, that state has seen its drunk-driving deaths fall 20 percent. Hurley said other states could see the same percentage decline within a few years. DUI deaths nationally have plummeted to around 15,000 from around 30,000 annually in the early 1980s. Malham, who supports the technology, said in the future even more advanced technology will enable cars to effectively sniff car cabins, scan faces and eyes of drivers or even test sweat on steering wheels to assess sobriety before engines start. Not everyone is as enthusiastic. One of the staunchest critics of interlock laws for first-time offenders is the Washington-based American Beverage Institute, a trade association representing restaurants and retailers. ABI managing director Sarah Longwell said the group backs interlock laws targeting repeat offenders and those arrested with high blood-alcohol levels. But she said laws advocated by MADD don't allow judges to distinguish between those who have a few drinks and go just over the 0.08 blood-alcohol legal limit and those who go way over. "We want sensible alcohol policies," she said. "We want 10 people to be able to come in and have one drink and not one person to come in and have 10." She said current interlock laws could lead to more draconian measures. "We foresee is a country in which you're no longer able to have a glass of wine, drink a beer at a ball game or enjoy a champagne toast at a wedding," she said. "There will be a de facto zero tolerance policy imposed on people by their cars." She argued that MADD puts too much emphasis on links between alcohol and traffic deaths, giving too little regard to the roles excessive speed and driver cell-phone use in deadly accidents. Proponents of interlock laws say studies back their approach. They cite a 2008 study by the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation that found interlock devices in New Mexico helped decrease repeat offenses by approximately two-thirds. MADD also points to figures showing one-third of all drunk drivers have a prior DUI conviction. The American Beverage Institute questions studies cited by advocates, saying they other factors, like education programs, also account for the declines. Malham concedes Illinois' new law isn't perfect. For one, it only applies to drivers during relatively short license-suspension periods. "But perfection can't be the enemy of the good, to quote (18th century philosopher) Voltaire," he said. "I'd like to see more teeth in the law in the future. But this is a start."
Poster Comment: With all the car rentals, they'll also have to note the conviction on a persons drivers license. This will mean whenever a person uses their lic. for ID (as in a new job, etc) the conviction will appear.
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#1. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
I'm in Washington State. Here, you can quite literally blow a .000 and STILL get arrested for drunk driving. No lie. It's just insane. So, when I do (rarely) go out, all I order to drink is soda or maybe orange juice. I'm not willing to pay out over $10,000 in fines and fees just because some cop decided that since I had one drink two hours ago, that I am therefore "driving drunk".
 | Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#2. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
this is a fence sitting issue for me since my sister was killed by a drunk driver.
#3. To: Jethro Tull (#0) (Edited)
post removed by puppy
#4. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
"It's amazingly inconvenient," said David Malham, of the Illinois chapter of MADD. "But the flip side of the inconvenience is death." First.. the cost is out of bounds.. hence IMHO only, goes against a fair judgement v. action.. second, Mr. Malham is grand standing, by not adding property damage to his statement, as not all Drunk Drivers have killed someone.. and those who have, are most likely facing at the least, Manslaughter Charges..
Users must pay for the fist-sized devices, which in Illinois cost around $80 to install on dashboards and $80 a month to rent; there's also a $30 monthly state fee. And they require periodic retesting while the car is running.
#5. To: christine (#2)
My thoughts are with you and yours...
since my sister was killed by a drunk driver.
#6. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
Who manufactures and installs these? Sounds like alot of payola.
Mark
If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
#7. To: Elliott Jackalope, chriatine, mark kamala, all (#1)
Maybe it's me, but I don't trust police breathalyzers and the portable blood testing centers located at DUI road blocks. Yep, they now have portable blood testing stations at these road blocks. I'm not making excuses for someone drunk and driving, but these methods aren't always accurate, nor are the lab tech always competent.
#8. To: Jethro Tull (#7)
I object to these laws on fourth amendment grounds. One should not be compelled to quarter what essentially amounts to a sentry of the state.
And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot
#9. To: All (#8)
And yes, I realise these are state laws, not feral.
And they write innumerable books; being too vain and distracted for silence: seeking every one after his own elevation, and dodging his emptiness. - T. S. Eliot
#10. To: Jethro Tull (#7)
i agree. i don't know what is the best approach for dealing with DUI offenders.
Yep, they now have portable blood testing stations at these road blocks. I'm not making excuses for someone drunk and driving, but these methods aren't always accurate, nor are the lab tech always competent.
#11. To: christine (#10)
It's terrible that innocent people get killed by drunk drivers, but as usual the politicians have cast a dragnet over a dragonfly. Moderation is the key to life that modern america has lost. I remember going to court as a young pup on public intox charge, the guy on trial before my case had been pooped like 18 times for DUI, his sentence was donate a box of canned food. Same town that held my grandfather for 12 hours on a 41 in a 35 mph zone. My dad had to come and get him, they couldn't see fit to let his WWII verteran, home-owning, factory working, church going, whistling sweet old guy out on his own reconigisance(sp?); Grandma was a nervous wreck for weeks. You know as well as I do: ANY POWER GIVEN TO THE STATE WILL BE ABUSED!
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#12. To: Dakmar (#11)
yes, i know.
It's terrible that innocent people get killed by drunk drivers, but as usual the politicians have cast a dragnet over a dragonfly
#13. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
MADD is ruining America. Fuck them. I have no sympathy any more for those assholes.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#14. To: Critter (#13)
I was on the job what they began their campaign. I completely agree that one shouldn't drink and drive, but local government, with MADDs blessing, have turned their crusade into a money grabbing, liberty removing, constitutional usurping abortion. I also detest them. If they had their way they'd shoot for a new round of prohibition.
MADD is ruining America
#15. To: christine (#10)
Ban alcohol. Or ban cars.
i don't know what is the best approach for dealing with DUI offenders.
#16. To: Fred Mertz (#15)
And baseball bats, bikes, and barbeque forks?
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#17. To: Dakmar (#16)
Don't forget kitchen knives...
#18. To: christine (#10)
How about accepting them as one of the risks of living in a free country? I would much rather have to guard myself against drunk drivers than guard myself against a tyrannical police state. And I'm sorry to hear about your sis. That sucks.
i don't know what is the best approach for dealing with DUI offenders.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#19. To: Jethro Tull (#14)
I used to tie their red ribbons on my car antenna. Now I wouldn't tie a bag of shit with them. :)
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#20. To: Fred Mertz (#17)
and old, bald dudes...
Don't forget kitchen knives...
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#21. To: Critter (#20)
Don't rub it in, hairy one.
#22. To: Critter (#18)
I would much rather have to guard myself against drunk drivers than guard myself against a tyrannical police state. i agree with you. admittedly, it's difficult for me to be completely objective here with images of my sister's massive injuries still crystal clear in my mind. the man responsible, a repeat offender, only lost his license for a year, btw.
How about accepting them as one of the risks of living in a free country?
#23. To: christine (#22)
Over the years you've convinced me of the strength of your character it almost seems silly to have to reassure you, but I understand how you feel, it shows great patience on your part not to just freakin lash out at idiots like me sometimes. There, how's that? :)
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#24. To: christine (#2)
I'm sorry to hear that. I have no sympathy for drunk drivers. A car is a weapon just as much as a gun is when used improperly. A drunk shooter couldn't get away with an "accidental" murder, but drunk drivers do to a large extent.
God is always good!
#25. To: christine, Jethro Tull (#10)
i agree. i don't know what is the best approach for dealing with DUI offenders. I think Sweden has the best solution. Get busted for a DUI and your license is revoked for life. Of course I would favor a chance to appeal for reinstatement after ten years - wherein the individual must prove they were responsible in that time, and that any restitution has been fully made. EXCEPT that if the individual was involved in an accident where someone was badly injured or killed it is permanent with no reinstatement under any circumstance. PERIOD.
Yep, they now have portable blood testing stations at these road blocks. I'm not making excuses for someone drunk and driving, but these methods aren't always accurate, nor are the lab tech always competent.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#26. To: Original_Intent (#25)
Are you one of those hard shell Baptists?
#27. To: Original_Intent (#25)
I don't trust government with that kind of power. There was a time I might have agreed, but not any more. No way. They can't be trusted to administer justice any more.
Get busted for a DUI and your license is revoked for life.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#28. To: Original_Intent (#25)
I read you and like most of what you say and believe. But not on this one.
#29. To: Critter (#27)
I don't trust government with that kind of power. There was a time I might have agreed, but not any more. No way. They can't be trusted to administer justice any more. I understand your viewpoint, and largely agree that I do not trust the current crop of JBT's to fairly and honestly administer the law. However, there is no excuse for drunk driving. It is a thorny issue GIVEN the untrustworthiness of the JBT's, but anyone convicted in a court, where the facts are proven, has no business on the road. They have proven that they ARE NOT responsible adults and are unworthy of trust themselves. If they can provide exculpatory evidence then they should be able to prove their innocence. While I feel sorry for them I see no reason to extend them undue and unearned courtesy of the doubt.
Get busted for a DUI and your license is revoked for life.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#30. To: Fred Mertz (#28)
That is fine. I do not think less of someone for disagreeing. Upon what point, or points, do you disagree and why?
I read you and like most of what you say and believe. But not on this one.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#31. To: Fred Mertz (#26)
No, I'm the son of a drunk and so have little tolerance for it.
Are you one of those hard shell Baptists?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#32. To: Original_Intent (#29)
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but there is a certain arbitrariness in the system. Like all zero-tolerance laws, it'd be neat if it were applied evenly, but it isn't.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#33. To: Original_Intent (#31)
So am I. My dad must not been as pathetic as your dad, nanana! :)
I'm the son of a drunk and so have little tolerance for it.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#34. To: Dakmar (#23)
ahhhh..thank you ;)
There, how's that?
#35. To: Dakmar (#32)
You are right that the zero tolerance laws are often asinine. However, when one takes an action, voluntarily, which puts the lives at others at risk just how tolerant do we want to be?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#36. To: Dakmar (#33)
So am I. My dad must not been as pathetic as your dad, nanana! :) LOL! He was a fine man when he was sober. Unfortunately that became less and less frequent over time. He had so much talent and so many gifts, and so many pissed away opportunities. Sigh. I can't rewrite yesterday, but I can imagine how it could have been better.
I'm the son of a drunk and so have little tolerance for it.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#37. To: Original_Intent (#35)
How many lives am I endangering when I make a beer run at .07776% BAC?
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#38. To: Original_Intent (#35)
Looking away from the road for a split second to adjust the heat in your car does exactly that. I say life without parole for adjusting the heat while driving.
However, when one takes an action, voluntarily, which puts the lives at others at risk just how tolerant do we want to be?
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#39. To: Original_Intent (#36)
And now, here's.... Peace O_I, I done made my point that we're all human, ok?
He was a fine man when he was sober. Unfortunately that became less and less frequent over time.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#40. To: Critter (#38)
Wish I would've!
I say life without parole for adjusting the heat while driving.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#41. To: Original_Intent (#30)
Did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice?
Upon what point, or points, do you disagree and why?
#42. To: Dakmar (#37) (Edited)
It depends upon how much your reaction time is slowed down and whether or not you hit an emergency situation where it slows you down enough to not avoid a preventable disaster. An automobile IS a deadly weapon in the hands of someone impaired. Of course I've seen a few idiots on the road, OK more than a few, who are impaired without being the worse for drink. The point, all joking aside, is that it is irresponsible to drive impaired by alcohol or any other intoxicant. Were it just your life at risk I would not think of interfering, but it is not. When you get behind the wheel of a car you have accepted the responsibility of handling it to the best of your ability. If the ability is lessened by some intoxicant then it IS an irresponsible act which could cost someone else their life.
How many lives am I endangering when I make a beer run at .07776% BAC?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#43. To: Original_Intent (#35)
You are sounding like a Bush/Cheney record on skip. Oops, I'm showing my age. A good friend of mine doesn't approve of my smoking cigarettes but we are still friends. His dad died of lung cancer after a long struggle. I should quit smoking, but I haven't. I doubt that my smoking has killed any one.
However, when one takes an action, voluntarily, which puts the lives at others at risk just how tolerant do we want to be?
#44. To: Original_Intent (#42)
So how fiercely would you prescibe I be punished for acting right inside the limits set by the law?
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#45. To: Critter (#38)
i'm not in disagreement with you on this as i loathe bureaucrats as much as you BUT, let me ask you. would you feel differently if it were your daughter killed by a repeat offender DUI'er?
#46. To: Critter (#38)
Looking away from the road for a split second to adjust the heat in your car does exactly that. I say life without parole for adjusting the heat while driving. Strawman. Unless you are "three sheets to the wind" you are aware and alert thus able to judge whether you can shift your attention for a moment. Being drunk behind the wheel is not a momentary thing and we both know it. Your simile doesn't work because it isn't similar.
However, when one takes an action, voluntarily, which puts the lives at others at risk just how tolerant do we want to be?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#47. To: Original_Intent (#46)
In this country, two drinks puts the normal person over the limit...(0.08) Do two drinks make a drunk driver?
Unless you are "three sheets to the wind" you are aware..
#48. To: Jethro Tull, all (#0)
I used to drink and I used to drive and I used to drink and drive. I never hurt anything but my car(s). Now I don't drink, I don't drive and I don't drink and drive. Something should be done about drinking and driving. It causes alot of unnecessary injuries and deaths of innocents. I think maybe more severe punishment for injuries or deaths caused by drunk driving might be a better deterrent.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#49. To: All (#48)
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#50. To: Fred Mertz (#43)
You are sounding like a Bush/Cheney record on skip. Oops, I'm showing my age. A good friend of mine doesn't approve of my smoking cigarettes but we are still friends. His dad died of lung cancer after a long struggle. I should quit smoking, but I haven't. I doubt that my smoking has killed any one. Ever hit a pedestrian while lighting a cigarette? ;-) Also the lung cancer rate for non-smokers, and this would shock the anti-smoking Nazi's into disbelief, is only slightly lower than for smokers. Smoking may increase the risk, but not as much as the hyperbole would lead people to believe. However, that is another issue. Your simile though, like Critter's, fails as an accurate simile to the instance of someone engaging in a VOLUNTARY activity, drinking, who then, while impaired, puts the lives of others at risk by getting behind the wheel of a deadly weapon. When you smoke you risk your own health which, as far as I am concerned, you are free to do. When you get behind the wheel of a car impaired you are putting at risk not just your own life but the lives of others who did not consent to that risk.
However, when one takes an action, voluntarily, which puts the lives at others at risk just how tolerant do we want to be?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#51. To: wudidiz (#48)
Out here in flyover country they put up roadblocks and ask to see your papers. They put them up in the middle of nowhere, on strategic country roads and highways, normally after 10 p.m. What should be done about drinking and driving, in your opinion?
Something should be done about drinking and driving.
#52. To: Fred Mertz (#15)
Or ban cars. Neither of them is the cause of irresponsibility. People choose when and where they drink and if they will need to be traveling or not after doing so. They make that choice while they are sober. If it wasn't alcohol it could just as easily be prescription drugs. I kind of doubt they will be banning prescription drugs anytime soon no matter how many people die from the use of them.
Ban alcohol.
God is always good!
#53. To: wudidiz (#48)
Damn, I knew there was a reason I adopted a new tagline.
I think maybe more severe punishment for injuries or deaths caused by drunk driving might be a better deterrent.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#54. To: Original_Intent (#50)
What is impaired? Two bottles of beer?
When you get behind the wheel of a car impaired you are putting at risk not just your own life but the lives of others who did not consent to that risk.
#55. To: RickyJ (#52)
You mean, Medicare Part D might not have been the altruistic piece of legislation I've been led to believe in?
I kind of doubt they will be banning prescription drugs anytime soon no matter how many people die from the use of them.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#56. To: RickyJ (#52)
Have you noticed that the pharma industry is the only that can afford commercial time during prime time? So, you are correct.
I kind of doubt they will be banning prescription drugs anytime soon no matter how many people die from the use of them.
#57. To: Fred Mertz (#43)
No one but yourself. It hasn't literally killed you yet, but it has killed the life you could have had smoke free.
I doubt that my smoking has killed any one.
God is always good!
#58. To: Original_Intent (#50)
I wonder how many Palistineans I've killed this week just by paying taxes?
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#59. To: All (#58)
That was a really cheap stunt-ass question, I apologise for that.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#60. To: Fred Mertz (#51) (Edited)
What should be done about drinking and driving, in your opinion? Like I said, ' I think maybe more severe punishment for injuries or deaths caused by drunk driving might be a better deterrent.' With emphasis on 'I think', 'maybe' and 'might be'. I don't know, but I can certainly see how someone who was disfigured like the girl in the picture at #49 would agree. You know, police state and all that.
Out here in flyover country they put up roadblocks and ask to see your papers. They put them up in the middle of nowhere, on strategic country roads and highways, normally after 10 p.m.
There are roadblocks here too, but maybe not enough, although too much is not so good either of course.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#61. To: Dakmar (#59)
Very funny though.
That was a really cheap stunt-ass question, I apologise for that.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#62. To: wudidiz (#60) (Edited)
Would you feel better if I told you she'd been burned in a meth-lab explosion?
I can certainly see how someone who was disfigured like the girl in the picture at #49 would agree.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#63. To: wudidiz (#60)
I can't believe you wrote that.
There are roadblocks here too, but maybe not enough...
#64. To: Dakmar (#62)
I'll go with 'no' on that one.
Would you feel better if I told you she'd burned in a meth-lab explosion?
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#65. To: Fred Mertz (#54)
What is impaired? Two bottles of beer? In my case one. I'm a cheap drunk. Two is my limit except under rare circumstance. However, in answer to your question it depends upon how many it takes to reduce your reaction time and affect your judgement. It could very well be 2 beers. My point is that it should not have to cost someone else their life because you couldn't be bothered to behave responsibly. There is nothing that says you have to drive a car after having had a couple of beers. It is an elective activity not a necessity. Alcohol IS an intoxicant. Any significant amount is going to have an affect on any normal person. If you're 6'9" and weigh 300 pounds two beers probably is not going to register. If you're 4'9" and weigh 100 pounds you are likely on the edge of drunk. If you're somewhere in between it is not wholly predictable because body chemistry plays a role. However, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, after two beers you are not as sharp as you were at no beers. That's why they call it "getting a little buzz on". I do not drive after even one beer without the passage of enough time for the alcohol to metabolize to the point where I am sure I am safe.
When you get behind the wheel of a car impaired you are putting at risk not just your own life but the lives of others who did not consent to that risk.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#66. To: wudidiz (#64)
Excellent, always figured you for the free enterprise type. :) Now go get me some revenue, booboo!
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#67. To: Original_Intent (#65)
Crud! I ganked my Yahoo account for this?
Alcohol IS an intoxicant. Any significant amount is going to have an affect on any normal person. If you're 6'9" and weigh 300 pounds two beers probably is not going to register. If you're 4'9" and weigh 100 pounds
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#68. To: Fred Mertz (#63)
I can't believe you wrote that.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#69. To: Dakmar (#66)
Now go get me some revenue, booboo! Not really sure what any of that means.
Excellent, always figured you for the free enterprise type. :)
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#70. To: Original_Intent (#65)
Source? Goobermint studies don't count.
However, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, after two beers you are not as sharp as you were at no beers.
#71. To: Dakmar (#67)
Thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhpppppppppp! Your mother wears combat boots. Na, na, - na, - na-na - na.Crud! I ganked my Yahoo account for this?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#72. To: wudidiz (#69)
It's a New World Order, I think we'll need speedboats! Rose-bowl floats?
Not really sure what any of that means.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#73. To: Original_Intent (#71)
She did until she broke her shoulder anyway. Thanks for mentioning that.
Your mother wears combat boots.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#74. To: Dakmar (#72)
Yeah, you got me there.
It's a New World Order, I think we'll need speedboats! Rose-bowl floats?
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#75. To: All (#74)
This ****in' Dakmar character's outta control.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#76. To: wudidiz, Fred Mertz (#75)
Yes, I am. Thanks for noticing. Know what's funny? Fred Mertz talking to White Sands! Seriously!
This ****in' Dakmar character's outta control.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#77. To: Dakmar, Fred Mertz (#76)
Yes, very funny.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#78. To: Fred Mertz (#70)
Source? Goobermint studies don't count. However, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, after two beers you are not as sharp as you were at no beers.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#79. To: Original_Intent, Fred Mertz, Dakmar, all (#78)
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#80. To: Original_Intent (#78)
Okay, you've convinced me.
Word categorization and recognition tasks also assess complex cognitive processes. Alcohol decreases performance in word categorization tasks by inducing slower and less accurate responses, whereas in word recognition tasks, alcohol can result in more accurate semantic processing (Maylor et al., 1987) or impaired performance (Williams and Rundell, 1984).
#81. To: Dakmar (#44) (Edited)
It depends. How many people were injured or killed as a result of your playing "chicken"?
So how fiercely would you prescibe I be punished for acting right inside the limits set by the law?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#82. To: Original_Intent (#81) (Edited)
Nice people? Nary a one, eh?
It depends. How many people were injured or killed as a result of your playing "chicken"?
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#83. To: Original_Intent (#81)
I was watching Anthony Bordain earlier today, interveiwing Ted Nugent and grilling meat. Nuge cracked me up, asked why Bono wasn't out planting trees.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#84. To: Original_Intent (#81)
Wow! That's conclusive.
...in 16 adult participants in both alcohol and placebo conditions. IT (a measure of the early stages of information processing) ...
#85. To: Fred Mertz, Original_Intent (#84)
I'm spooked, screw all of you!
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#86. To: Fred Mertz, Original_Intent, Dakmar (#85)
Wow! That's conclusive.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#87. To: wudidiz (#86)
If only they'd got a bigger vehicle that guard rail would'da hit'em in the groin instead of straight through the skull.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#88. To: Jethro Tull, christine, lodwick, james deffenbach, wudidiz, fred mertz, original_intent, twentytwelve, psusa, rotara (#0)
I havent read through all this very long thread but it caught my attention because of all the replies. I am very surprised that some here would support these checkpoints and the ignition devices! now speaking from someone who has been hit by 3 drunk drivers, (all female!) I am adamantly against such laws, checkpoints, devices, etc. checkpoints have been proven not to work and are tyranny anyway, IMO. no probable cause. MADD is a KOOK organization that hates freedom. theres been some great articles on them recently posted here. Also, just because someone goes over the supposed 'limit' doesnt mean theyre impaired. why have they lowered it and lowered it so many times? to snare the people and amp up their revenue racket. Remember the video i posted of my dog on the beach about a month ago? that is the very same day.. that night, what i later learned was a drunk driver crashed into at least 7 cars, two of them being mine! (truck and trailer both) I spoke to the woman for some time afterwards and didnt even know she was 'drunk'. until i found out later she was arested for DUI, which i shouldnt have to point out, an arrest still doesnt mean shes drunk anyway. another issue of libertarian interest in my case is that the state of CA only compels motorists to have $5,000 in liability ins. this woman had more than the minimum, she had 10K. but when you hit 7 cars, several of them TOTALED, everyone involved is F-#$@ked! financially i mean! the first car she totaled, a VW was 14k in damage alone. the question always is, should the state compel insurance anyway? if so, why? it was never compulsory for all these years until recently. it will be months before anyone is paid anything. i actually had my videocam with me and took vid of the whole mess on the freeway and the drivers! the CHP had had the freeway shut down for one prior accident and so we were alll stopped (about 2 am) and, i was stopped for 5 mins waiting and then i heard what sounded like a 70s tv movie. screaming screeching, crashing, UNREAL! the bitch didnt stop in time and went between 2 lanes of cars hitting everyone! MIRACULOUSLY no one was hurt in all this!! i saw it all happening in my rear view mirror like a tv show. i was in the far right lane the chaos was in the fast lane (far left), and I thought, "geez. im glad im over here out of the wa--BAMMMM!!!! " i was pissed and its a lot of damage but i still dont want some coruupt pig govt forcing anyone to breathe into something. this is premptive guilt judgement and is a complete racket. another thing this accident did is remind me that our time could come at any moment. anyone could have easily been killed that night. my wife and i had a great time at the beach for several days,., beautiful sunny days.. immediately faced with a huge mess. you just never know. out trailer was brand new too. not even 2 months old. quite a test of faith actually, when everything goes bad at once. but Praise God and have faith of a mustard seed. not always easy, for sure.
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#89. To: christine (#2)
oh man, I'm so sorry to hear that. i just saw your remark now. ;-(
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#90. To: christine, Jethro Tull, James Deffenbach (#10)
chris, many folks who drink to excess and drive recklessly do so because the govt and the anti marijuana lobby, THE PARTNERSHIP FOR A DRUG FREE AMERICA (the alcohol and tobacco industries) insist that we can only self medicate with highly dangerous alcohol spirits. If folks could lawfully grow, buy and smoke fine quality reefa those who drove would go slowly and carefully, not excessively fast (for their reflexes) while menacing all others around them. Big liquor and tobacco are worried about their profits of course, so, the car crashes must continue. This industry influence combined with the compound stress of creeping govt control over our lives can only magnify the problem. If reefa was decrim'ed they'd drive like orientals trying to merge into freeway rush hour traffic. (Instead of speeding up to merge more "intoxicated" motorists may stop, causing major interruptions to traffic flow-irritating but not nearly as dangerous as drunks on the road)
i agree. i don't know what is the best approach for dealing with DUI offenders.
#91. To: Original_Intent, Critter, all (#42)
An automobile IS a deadly weapon in the hands of someone impaired. Of course I've seen a few idiots on the road, OK more than a few, who are impaired without being the worse for drink. What do we do about the senior citizen problem? Or handicapped, or just bad drivers? I know far more elderly people who shouldn't be driving than drunks. How about we pull their licenses at 65, or for anyone who takes prescription meds, or once a person goes on the government dole which makes them a burden on society? I'm with Critter on this one, some risk is necessary in a free society. If a person is so safety obsessed, maybe it's them who shouldn't be driving.
It depends upon how much your reaction time is slowed down and whether or not you hit an emergency situation where it slows you down enough to not avoid a preventable disaster.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)
#92. To: Esso, Original_Intent (#91)
DING! We have a winner! I drive between 30k and 60k miles a year depending on the year. I probably avoid 6 or 8 accidents a week just by watching out for the other guy. My safety is my responsibility. I feel the same way about the movement "Kill a biker, go to jail." On my motorcycle, my safety is my responsibility. Why should some old lady who didn't see me coming go to jail because she is an old lady who didn't see me coming? If, heaven forbid, my daughter is hurt or killed by a drunk or an old lady that didn't see her coming, I would hope that I was mature enough to get over it without needing to see heads roll. Now if some dipshit rapes her, I'll kill him myself. It's all about intent to me. Did the drunk or old lady intend to kill me or my kid? No. Did the rapist intend to hurt my kid? Absolutely. I'll kill the latter or forgive the former and try to get on with my life, either as a free man or behind bars for manslaughter. :)
If a person is so safety obsessed, maybe it's them who shouldn't be driving.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#93. To: Critter, Artisan, All (#92) (Edited)
The problem is: People don't have a fucking clue. I think I am more qualified than most to answer this since the road is my office. They don't realize that 1 little misstep can cost them their lives. Or they can be completely innocent, and another driver makes a mistake and they are dead anyway. Lots of graves are filled with people that did nothing wrong. You can see it in the way people drive. They dont pay attention, and they don't respect the level of danger they are in. They might get away with doing stupid shit 99 times out of 100, but the only one that matters is the 100th time. It isn't just drunk drivers. The perfectly sober ones are equally dangerous. I think it was Tommy Lee Jones that said in a movie "individuals are smart, people are stupid". He was right, even if it is only a movie. I dont see an answer to this. People are stupid and will do stupid things no matter what laws they pass. If people are so desperate to die, then go jump off a fucking bridge, BY YOURSELF! Don't take anyone with you. .
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”
#94. To: Critter (#92)
I have a real problem with any device that denies you access to personal transportation in case of an emergency. You're home. You've had a half glass of beer or wine. Your child falls and cuts herself...bleeding badly. The car says 'you're drunk', and refuses to start. Call for an ambulance? To paraphrase: "when seconds count, the ambulance is minutes away". Your child bleeds to death. Who's liable? This device will open a major can of worms...
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#95. To: Esso, Critter, Dakmar, christine, Wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, James Deffenbach, Lodwick, angle, all (#91) (Edited)
How do you feel about responsibility? At what point do you receive the right to endanger the lives of others unnecessarily? Where do you receive that right i.e., upon what premise? Do you acknowledge or deny that the larger group has a right to protect themselves from the irresponsible actions of some? Please explain how it is the responsible thing to do to get behind the wheel of a vehicle when you are under the influence of an intoxicant, thus putting the lives of others at risk, - which is a VOLUNTARY activity? As far as I'm concerned you are welcome to "handle snakes", play "Russian Roulette, or join Free Republic, but those are individual choices which affect no one other than the individual concerned. When your actions have the potential to affect another person than yourself then it becomes a matter not just of personal choice but of reasonable action by the larger group to protect themselves from willfull individuals who take no concern as to how their actions might affect others. A free society does not mean a society without limits where the actions of one which adversely affect the liberties, and the enjoyment of those liberties, by others goes without restraint or restriction. You have no right to get behind the wheel of a car and then murder someone in cold blood, because that is what you are doing when you drive under the influence. Society has a right and a vested interest in protecting itself from the irresponsible and unethical. When you get behind the wheel of a car, a voluntary activity, you either accept responsibility for your actions or you do not? Which is it?
I'm with Critter on this one, some risk is necessary in a free society. If a person is so safety obsessed, maybe it's them who shouldn't be driving.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#96. To: who knows what evil (#94) (Edited)
To clarify my position - I do not support the use of this device as I regard it as unreasonable, and as you correctly point out, in theory, could unnecessarily limit someone's response in and emergency. However, that does not answer the larger question which is at what point does a society have the right to restrain the actions of the irresponsible? Absolutes are unobtainable in the real world, and they exist only in theory. (Which as an aside is why I find the mania of some on the left and right, on some issues, to be a type of insanity.) My point and my sole point is that drinking and driving is irresponsible and is always unacceptable as a voluntary elective activity, and then only because it puts the lives and liberties of others at risk.
I have a real problem with any device that denies you access to personal transportation in case of an emergency. You're home. You've had a half glass of beer or wine. Your child falls and cuts herself...bleeding badly. The car says 'you're drunk', and refuses to start. Call for an ambulance? To paraphrase: "when seconds count, the ambulance is minutes away". Your child bleeds to death. Who's liable? This device will open a major can of worms...
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#97. To: Original_Intent (#95)
You accept the responsibility for your actions. So a guy has 3 beers, drives home, has no accident, but gets stopped by a roadblock, blows a .081 and goes to jail. He harmed no one. There is nothing to be held accountable for. But you'd like to see him have one of these things on his car? Maybe you need to change your screen name to something like: Original_Intent_But_Only_When_It_Isn't_My_Pet_Peeve I have my pet peeves, don't get me wrong, but the last thing I want is government to make a new law or design a new punishment for what pisses me off about other people. When you have 300 million in a country, you have 300 million pet peeves, and if we outlaw all of them, nothing will be legal and all 300 million will be in jail or have some dumb doohickey attached to them somehow.
When you get behind the wheel of a car, a voluntary activity, you either accept responsibility for your actions or you do not? Which is it?
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#98. To: Original_Intent, all (#96)
These devices can be bypassed by anyone - simply ask a friend who isn't drinking to blow-start. Now the question is how do u prevent a habitual drunk from driving? Some drugs react violently w/alcohol. Would you mandate such a person take it daily/weekly? Or would you simply lock up a person with a disease to protect society?
#99. To: Critter, christine (#97)
Do you accept responsibility for your actions or not? Do you feel you have the right to endanger others because your right to drive impaired is senior to others to drive safely? How do you feel about "Stop Signs"? Do you find them an unreasonable restraint upon your freedom? Do Railroad Crossing Guards unreasonably inhibit your right to drive into the front of an oncoming locomotive? For the record - as I clarified above I do not support the requirement for one of these devices. I do object to adults behaving as willful children. If you blow .81 I think you should have your license revoked as you have proven by that action that you are irresponsible and have no need to be behind the wheel of a car putting the lives of responsible adults at risk. You can attempt to personalize this all you want, but I am immune to childish taunts and insults. That you behaved irresponsibly and got away with it does not make an action any less irresponsible. Either you accept responsibility for your actions or you do not. Which is it?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#100. To: Original_Intent (#99)
Blowing an 0.81, might in reality be a 0.79 (legal), but that said, for a first time offender you'd remove their license and perhaps their source of income for how long a period of time?
If you blow .81 I think you should have your license revoked as you have proven by that action that you are irresponsible and have no need to be behind the wheel of a car putting the lives of responsible adults at risk.
#101. To: Jethro Tull (#98)
First, I don't accept your premise. Alcoholism is NOT a disease it is a habit. It may well indicate that the person has problems but it IS NOT a disease. There is no physical requirement that any individual drink alcohol, and I am not some ninnying teetotaler who wags their finger at someone for enjoying the pleasures of drinking a wee bit o' the Irish, or Cognac, or Scotch, or Boubon, but I do draw the line at Sloe Gin (disgusting shit reserved for unwelcome relatives). As I pointed out above I don't support this device as there is too much room for government abuse. As for solving the problem of the drunk driver. We live in an imperfect world and there is no "one" solution, but taking away their license, and if need be their vehicle (although we had one locally who had his license and car taken away and he kept buying junkers and driving them until he finally killed someone and was locked up for what is probably the rest of his life). But there is no one solution but sanctions need to be draconian enough to make it unacceptable to go out kill someone because you felt your right to drive was senior to someone else's right to live. Not that I am saying you are that irresponsible, but some are. The sanctions have to have enough of bite to deter the irresponsible behavior.
These devices can be bypassed by anyone - simply ask a friend who isn't drinking to blow-start. Now the question is how do u prevent a habitual drunk from driving? Some drugs react violently w/alcohol. Would you mandate such a person take it daily/weekly? Or would you simply lock up a person with a disease to protect society?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#102. To: Original_Intent (#99)
What childish taunt? My suggesting you change your name to one more appropriate for your actions? Where is the original intent for DUI roadblocks? Where is the original intent for preemptive punishment? Where is the original intent for the unusual punishment of making a guy blow into some silly gizmo to make a grocery run, and have to pay through the nose for the privilege? The war on DUI is more bogus than the war on drugs and the war on terror. Do a little research on how we got to .08, and how unreliable the breathalyzer is. It's all a money making scheme for liars, I mean lawyers, insurance companies, courts, jailers and makers of silly doohickies. For the record, I don't drink and drive, never had a DUI, and never had an accident under the influence.
but I am immune to childish taunts and insults.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#103. To: Critter (#97)
just pondering...how do you think an anarchist society would handle something like this? iow, what would be the punishment/consequences when a person infringes another's right to life, liberty, and property? i've always said i'd prefer anarchy over what we have now, but could it really work?
#104. To: Jethro Tull (#100)
Blowing an 0.81, might in reality be a 0.79 (legal), but that said, for a first time offender you'd remove their license and perhaps their source of income for how long a period of time? In Sweden it is permanent - no exceptions, and resulted in dramatic decline in Auto Accident Fatalities. Statistically 50% of ALL Auto Accidents are Alcohol related. In Oregon if you are over the legal limit you are assumed to be AT FAULT in any accident in which you are involved even if the other driver hits you. While I don't agree entirely with that it is one solution. I would probably, if I had my way, go for a modified Swedish Law wherein the person would lose their license for 5 years on a first offense and then at the end of that 5 could apply for reinstatement. Second offense - revocation for life with no exceptions.
If you blow .81 I think you should have your license revoked as you have proven by that action that you are irresponsible and have no need to be behind the wheel of a car putting the lives of responsible adults at risk.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#105. To: Original_Intent (#101)
That alcoholism is a disease isn't my premise; much smarter people than myself have have arrived at that conclusion. What can't be argued by anyone is the genetic predisposition to alcoholism. Using that fact as a start, the evidence, for me at least, points to a disease process.
#106. To: christine, Original_Intent (#103)
There is no way to prevent the habitual drunk driver from driving except incarceration for life, as O.I. pointed out in his last post. It is the habitual drunk that is the problem here, not the guy that has two beers with dinner. But it is the guy that has 2 beers with dinner that is targeted by all of the hysteria surrounding DUI. 99.99% of the people here know that our government is an organized crime syndicate. Why on earth anyone would want them to fix anything is beyond me. Our government has never fixed anything and never will. What makes people think that it will be any different with DUI? Is it some kind of magic thinking which I do not possess?
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#107. To: Critter, christine (#102)
In your tirade you completely avoided all of the key questions and substituted a highly emotional, but devoid of logic and reason, rant attacking a device I have already said, at least twice in this thread, that I do not support. I'll restate the key question simply for your convenience. At what point does someone's right to drive under the influence outweigh someone else's right to live? At what point does a society have the right to protect itself from those who behave irresponsibly? Christine raises an interesting point. What do we do if someone drives drunk and kills someone we love? Declare Blood Feud and hunt them down and kill them? Or is it more responsible, as a group and individual, to put in those safeguards we can to prevent the needless death in the first place?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#108. To: Original_Intent (#104)
In Sweden it is permanent - no exceptions, and resulted in dramatic decline
in Auto Accident Fatalities. Why stop at driving? I've
said this countless times, but a large majority of the people I arrested were
drinking. It's a wicked drug, so why not another round of prohibition? I
guarantee if alcohol weren't available crime would drop dramatically.
Statistically 50% of ALL Auto Accidents are Alcohol related.
#109. To: Original_Intent (#104)
Oh, you believe the government or MADD stats? lol If I am in the back seat of my 72yo mother's car, and she has an accident, stone cold sober, with another 70yo stone cold granny, but I am injured and am under the influence, it is an alcohol related accident by their figures. So it is ok to punish the unguilty? Where is the original intent in that? I know how our country got this far into the shit. People who are all about original intent except when it comes to their pet peeve. Remember those 300 million pet peeves?
Statistically 50% of ALL Auto Accidents are Alcohol related.
While I don't agree entirely with that it is one solution.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#110. To: Original_Intent (#107)
Kinda like the war on terror? Kill em all over there before they kill us over here?
Or is it more responsible, as a group and individual, to put in those safeguards we can to prevent the needless death in the first place?
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#111. To: Jethro Tull, christine, Critter (#105)
Adroitly sidestepping a side debate of some complexity - regardless as to whether alcoholism is a disease or not we, as a group, have decided that some impairments are incompatible with some activities. For example we don't issue Driver's Licenses to blind people. So, regardless of the genesis of the alcoholism we know, both from personal experience and laboratory testing, that alcohol impairs reaction time, field of vision, and judgement. So, I do not think it unreasonable to prohibit drinking and driving. We have to have some standard by which to judge that line of demarcation - between impaired and unimpaired. At this point many states, regardless of the validity, have set the standard at .08% Blood Alcohol. Therefore, regardless of what one might think personally, that is the legal standard. Thus anyone exceeding that standard is, by legal definition, too impaired to be behind the wheel of a car. Since driving impaired is irresponsible and puts others at risk against their will then action is justified in sanctioning that behavior. We know from experience that for a standard to be enforceable, where willful people are concerned, then the sanction must be draconian enough to get their attention and make the penalty for the irresponsible action more than they're willing to risk.
That alcoholism is a disease isn't my premise; much smarter people than myself have have arrived at that conclusion. What can't be argued by anyone is the genetic predisposition to alcoholism. Using that fact as a start, the evidence, for me at least, points to a disease process.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#112. To: Jethro Tull (#108)
In Sweden it is permanent - no exceptions, and resulted in dramatic decline in Auto Accident Fatalities. Why stop at driving? I've said this countless times, but a large majority of the people I arrested were drinking. It's a wicked drug, so why not another round of prohibition? I guarantee if alcohol weren't available crime would drop dramatically. Who's arguing for prohibition. I certainly am not. And we both know how well "Prohibition" worked in the Twenties and with the current "War on Some drugs". I oppose prohibition as strenuously as I object to driving while intoxicated. I don't drink much anymore but you'll get my Scotch and Cognac (and Red Wine) when you get through the front door - which might be a tough proposition - assuming I'm not too impaired to shoot straight. And I doubt crime would drop from prohibition - we have empirical evidence suggesting the exact opposite.
Statistically 50% of ALL Auto Accidents are Alcohol related.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#113. To: Original_Intent (#111)
I have no problem with arresting DUIs - I do have a problem with draconian punishment. First time offenders - no injuries - should be fined and allowed a 'bread and butter license' (to and from work). If you remove a person's license, and their income/job for the most part, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.
#114. To: Critter, christine, Jethro Tull (#110) (Edited)
Kinda like the war on terror? Kill em all over there before they kill us over here? Again you offer a simile that is not similar. The "WaronTerra" is founded on lies. Yes or No? Does alcohol impair a person's ability to see clearly, think clearly, and react quickly. Yes? Or No? You keep avoiding the issue of individual responsibility and the rights of others to go about their affairs unendangered by the irresponsible action of SOME. Is it more reasonable to allow the irresponsible to kill others by their irresponsibility than to take what action we can to reduce "the bag limit" of drunks behind the wheel? Are people responsible for their actions or not? Yes or No? Are we, as a society, within OUR rights to defend against the actions of an irresposible, and deadly, few? Yes or No?
Or is it more responsible, as a group and individual, to put in those safeguards we can to prevent the needless death in the first place?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#115. To: Original_Intent (#112)
I brought this up because you seem treat a .081 driver - no injuries - more harshly than a .081 bar stool sitter who punches (assault) the guy next to him.
And I doubt crime would drop from prohibition
#116. To: Jethro Tull (#113)
I could live with that. It is a reasonable compromise position. But ONLY to and from work.
I have no problem with arresting DUIs - I do have a problem with draconian punishment. First time offenders - no injuries - should be fined and allowed a 'bread and butter license' (to and from work). If you remove a person's license, and their income/job for the most part, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#117. To: Jethro Tull (#115)
The impaired individual, regardless of whether anyone is harmed, has taken an action which held the potential to cause harm. It is thus an irresponsible action which could have resulted in grave harm. Therefore they have violated the mutual covenant or respect for the rights of others and thus have behaved in a criminally irresponsible way. The person on the Bar Stool is guilty of assault and thus has earned what the law dictates. They have as well violated the rights of another.
I brought this up because you seem treat a .081 driver - no injuries - more harshly than a .081 bar stool sitter who punches (assault) the guy next to him.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#118. To: Original_Intent (#117)
I understand, my point is the inequity of the punishment. In the case of the driver, no harm occurred, yet they get hammered with arrest, loss of DL, an increase in insurance premium, etc. The bar stool drunk faces nothing near as severe *and* h/she actually caused an injury.
The person on the Bar Stool is guilty of assault and thus has earned what the law dictates.
#119. To: Jethro Tull (#118) (Edited)
I understand, my point is the inequity of the punishment. In the case of the driver, no harm occurred, yet they get hammered with arrest, loss of DL, an increase in insurance premium, etc. The bar stool drunk faces nothing near as severe *and* h/she actually caused an injury. It comes down to the potential for harm and personal responsibility. The person who drives impaired holds the potential to easily kill or maim if something goes awry. The potential exists for much greater harm than one drunk launching a "haymaker" at another drunk. As well if the drunk on the stool was swinging on my Uncle Rocky he might find himself in the Emergency Ward after colliding with a right hook (he had to sleep off half of his 70th Birthday in the Drunk Tank for beating the crap out of a guy half his age who thought he could push around a rowdy old Irishman from Hell's Kitchen). Insurance companies are in the business of insuring risk. People who behave irresponsibly are a higher risk and thus have to pay more because of that greater risk - as demonstrated by their own behavior. The same goes for people who have speeding violations or any other moving violation. It is equitable and based upon a judgement informed by risk tables. A person who gets behind the wheel of a car while under the influence has forfeited their trust again by their own actions. Yes, the penalties can be heavy, but there is a simple solution - don't get behind the wheel of a car under the influence.
The person on the Bar Stool is guilty of assault and thus has earned what the law dictates.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#120. To: Original_Intent (#119)
This is where things get hazy (pardon the pun). When society uses the "potential for harm" as a criterion for punishment, we're entering the eerie realm pre-crimes. Charges should be leveled for what was done, not for what might have been done. Just for the fun of it, how should we deal with drivers and the aging process? I'd guess a man/woman of 80 years has half the reaction time of a 30 year old. I'd also guess that the decrease in reaction time might be the equivalent of having a few beers. At what age do we begin yanking the geezers off the roads related to age?
It comes down to the potential for harm and personal responsibility.
#121. To: Jethro Tull (#120)
This is where things get hazy (pardon the pun). When society uses the "potential for harm" as a criterion for punishment, we're entering the eerie realm pre-crimes. Charges should be leveled for what was done, not for what might have been done. It is not JUST the potential for harm though. It is an ACTION which the individual voluntarily and of their own volition TOOK which was irresponsible and the potential for harm becomes serious harm when that drunk driver plows into a pedestrian, a car, or into the side of a bus at 70 miles an hour (in a 45 MPH Zone against a Red Light) as happened near where I live. What is being punished, or sanctioned, is the irresponsible action which experience has taught us CAN kill. I think Oregon came up with a sound answer - after a certain age (70 or so) a person must periodically re-test. If they are no longer physically able to drive safely their license IS NOT renewed. Florida has been wrestling with this one because of the high number of fatalities from older drivers picking off pedestrians. However, there are variables based on how well a person ages. At 85 my Great Aunt Grace was still safer than most other drivers on the road - and she DID NOT do 33 in a 70 MPH Zone. However, my Grandfather, again at 85, had become unsafe and his kids took away his Car Keys (pissed him off too, but he was forced to agree when he had calmed down). Again it is a matter of responsibility. If a person is no longer able to drive safely, and will not voluntarily put down the keys, then for the safety of all I would think it justified to take them away.
It comes down to the potential for harm and personal responsibility.
Just for the fun of it, how should we deal with drivers and the aging process? I'd guess a man/woman of 80 years has half the reaction time of a 30 year old. I'd also guess that the decrease in reaction time might be the equivalent of having a few beers. At what age do we begin yanking the geezers off the roads related to age?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#122. To: Original_Intent (#121)
Back to the
inequities of punishment, re; alcohol and driving. Lets remove the two
beers consumed by Suzie Q from the above, rather dramatic, "potential for
harm." IOW, she drove her car in the exact same way, causing the exact
same "potential" for harm. Her sanction if caught? A few summonses. Now, add a
bud light to the equation and MADD stains their pants. I remind you there are
no injuries in my Bud light example. The more I think of the "potential for
harm" issue, the more I realize very few poor choices are excluded from this
pool. Most every crime has an enormous, unsanctioned, potential for harm.
About the Oregon solution to aging and DLs, do you have any stats as to how
many drivers have failed the reaction test? I'll take a wild stab and say few
if any, this despite their unquestionable slowed reaction time. Sans multiple
accidents and summons, the elderly will be issued DLs, based on fear of age
discrimination. Potential for harm be damned, but at least they're off the
hooch :P
It is not JUST the potential for harm though. It is an ACTION
which the individual voluntarily and of their own volition TOOK which was
irresponsible and the potential for harm becomes serious harm when that drunk
driver plows into a pedestrian, a car, or into the side of a bus at 70 miles
an hour (in a 45 MPH Zone against a Red Light) as happened near where I live.
What is being punished, or sanctioned, is the irresponsible action which
experience has taught us CAN kill.
#123. To: Original_Intent (#114)
I'm not avoiding anything. I am saying it is impossible to fight, and the more we get behind the government trying to fight it, the more freedom we are going to have to give up in the name of safety. FUCK THAT! You want a nanny state so you can feel safe? Change your screen name.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#124. To: Critter (#123)
Who said anything about a "nanny state"? We are talking about people who are violating the right to life, liberty, and property of others by not behaving responsibly. What is there about that which does not compute? Do you feel that it is an unfair infringement upon someone's liberty to not let them get behind the wheel of a thousand pound missle when they are under the influence of alcohol (or other intoxicants)? In what way is it oppressive to use force to restrain someone who is being criminally negligent and irresponsible? Do you believe that we, as a group, have the right to enact laws to restrain those who have no respect for the rights of others or do you find such to be oppressive nanny-statism? What about drunk driving do you find commendable?
You want a nanny state so you can feel safe?
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
#125. To: Original_Intent (#124)
There is no fool proof measure of one's level of impairment that can be administered by the police. The ORIGINAL INTENT is that it is better to have guilty men run free than innocent men punished. Change your name. It is false advertising.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#126. To: Original_Intent (#124)
Maybe I do owe you an explanation for my total intolerance for the anti DUI police state which you seem to favor. Around here, driving after 11pm is DUI, or it is at least assumed to be, by the nazis, I mean police. They have this neat little trick where they ride on your ass with high beams on, especially on curvy sections of road, and hope that your tire touches the yellow line while you are blinded. Then they get to pull you over to check you out. It has happened to me about half a dozen times in two years. They are greeted with complete and total contempt by me. They ask, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I say, "I have no FUCKING idea!". They say my tire touched the yellow line, I say, that it is because I had some asshole riding on my bumper with his high beams on. They invariably say, "I didn't have my high beams on." Funny how they never claim to not be assholes. They ask where I am going, none of your business, where have you been, none of your business, may I leave now? They give me my "papers" back and say drive safe, I say after you, I don't like assholes on my bumper. Or when I go through a DUI roadblock and they ask like questions and I return like answers, and they have the gall to say to me that they have a right to make sure I am safe to drive. Fuck them. They have a right to kiss my ass too. Keep trying to win this war and you will be getting the same treatment where ever you are, and worse, cuz like all government wars on anything, eventually innocent people start getting killed by the "authorities". So forgive me if I say go fuck yourself if you support another war du jour on American citizens.
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#127. To: HOUNDDAWG (#90)
Here in Indiana it's against the law to sell alcohol on Sunday except in bars and restaraunts - no carry out. Unless I stock up, which I rarely do as alcohol is not a necessity, in order to get a drink on Sunday I have to get in my car, drive to a bar, consume any booze I may want, and then drive home. Does this law make any sense, except to lounge owners?
many folks who drink to excess and drive recklessly do so because the govt and the anti marijuana lobby, THE PARTNERSHIP FOR A DRUG FREE AMERICA (the alcohol and tobacco industries) insist that we can only self medicate with highly dangerous alcohol spirits.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#128. To: Critter, Original_Intent (#125)
Until a decade ago there were many states that set the legal limit at 0.10%, until FedGov blackmailed them into lowering limit to 0.08. Original Intent, are you telling me you support this sort of centralized, bullying activity?
There is no fool proof measure of one's level of impairment that can be administered by the police.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#129. To: Dakmar (#128)
AMA states that a blood alcohol level of 0.1 percent should be accepted as prima- facie evidence of alcohol intoxication 1960
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#130. To: Dakmar (#128)
In the past, the prosecutor's case in a Los Angeles DUI prosecution rested solely on the testimony of the arresting officer. The evidence against the defendant consisted entirely of the officer's observations of the defendant and of his opinion as to sobriety. But the pitfalls were many. The Los Angeles police officer's word could be challenged, and there was nothing to corroborate his observations. The validity of his opinion could be questioned and his opinion often had little special education or training behind it. Perhaps most important, the Los Angeles prosecutor had to fit the DUI defendant within a vague, ill-defined category entitled "under the influence." At no time could the prosecutor offer any evidence but outward symptoms and opinions, and at no time could he even spell out the DUI offense beyond such amorphous phrases as "substantial impairment." Two factors led to a drastic change in this situation. The first was the advent of advanced scientific techniques within criminalistics laboratories. Increasingly, law enforcement was turning to scientific methods of detection in proving criminal conduct. Then, in 1938, the American Medical Association set up a "Committee to Study Problems of Motor Vehicle Accidents"; at almost the same time, the National Safety Council established a "Committee on Tests for Intoxication." Studies by these committees resulted in a recommendation that legal standards be set for determining the intoxication of a driver by chemical testing. Although there was some disagreement among the prominent medical members of the committees, the consensus recognized that any individual who had .15 percent alcohol in his blood could be presumed to be under the influence of alcohol; anyone having less than .05 percent of alcohol could be presumed to be not under the influence; and those individuals falling in the .05 - .15 percent midrange might or might not be under the influence - that is, the test would not be conclusive. The .15 level was lowered in 1960 by the recommendations of both committees to .10 percent (this vacillation of medical experts, incidentally, should give added ammunition to defense counsel for cross-examination). Since then, many states have lowered it even further - to .08 percent. Armed with these findings and recommendations, prosecuting agencies throughout the country were able to obtain legislation requiring any driver to submit to chemical testing when requested by an officer. If the driver refused, these implied consent statutes automatically imposed sanctions, usually in the form of license suspension, regardless of the driver's guilt. When a blood-alcohol reading was obtained from the test, still other statutes determined what presumption, if any, was to be drawn legally from the reading, and the jury was to be instructed accordingly. Blood and Breath Alcohol Evidence in Los Angeles DUI Investigations
I shall not vote for evil, lesser or otherwise.
Used Tires Albany, NY
#131. To: Critter, Original_Intent (#130)
What I most object to is the "zero tolerance" mindset behind all these new laws. Laws should exist solely for the benefit of the legalised, but once some dickhead figures out how to game the system the rest of us become life's losers. Figuratively.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#132. To: Dakmar (#127) (Edited)
Does this law make any sense, except to lounge owners? Of course not. My home of VA had the strictest blue laws of all when I was a kid. Every store including 7-11s had a canvas blanket that they pulled down over toothpaste and all of those drug store items on Sunday, as well as forbidding the purchase of beer and wine. (hard liquor is purchased at state stores from a govt employee who wears a badge and who assesses the character of each sinner who buys "The Devil's Elixer") When VA experimented with liquor by the drink back in the 70's prior to legalization (when only beer and wine were available in bars and restaurants) all patrons had to be seated and the wait staff had to move the drink if customers chose to switch tables. No, you couldn't stand up and you couldn't sit on the floor. The Babtists thought that GAWD would be glorified if those who drank hard likka were seated half way in between.... Presumably the heart filled up with lust much more quickly if wimmen could stand and move graciously around intoxicated men....and every night would be the Devil's holiday in The Bible Belt. Of course the cab drivers I knew had a lucrative Sunday business selling otherwise legal whiskey by the half or whole pint. They had a car that they moved to a diff location every week and all of the cabbies had a trunk key. If a sailor asked for a bottle the cabbie would drive within a couple of blocks of the "rolling warehouse" and while the customers waited he'd hoof around the corner and pop the trunk to get the liquor which was always the cheapest rotgut, which they then resold at 100% markup. The Norfolk Police Vice and Taxi Squads never busted that operation the whole time it existed! And even a snitch sailor could not ID the vehicle because the cabbie never let the customers see it. (also to keep the squids and marines from breaking in and stealing the goods) Most folks think of bootlegging as the sale of unbonded whiskey and that is true except in Sunday blue law states which created a demand for bonded liquor and beer...on The Lord's day. Prohibitionists never learn, do they?
Here in Indiana it's against the law to sell alcohol on Sunday except in bars and restaraunts - no carry out. Unless I stock up, which I rarely do as alcohol is not a necessity, in order to get a drink on Sunday I have to get in my car, drive to a bar, consume any booze I may want, and then drive home.
#133. To: HOUNDDAWG (#132) (Edited)
I remeber hearing co-workers in Pennsylvania describe similar setup.
hard liquor is purchased at state stores from a govt employee who wears a badge and who assesses the character of each sinner who buys "The Devil's Elixer")
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#134. To: HOUNDDAWG (#132)
Makes me sad I loaned out my DVD of Thunder Road to my supervisor at work.
Most folks think of bootlegging as the sale of unbonded whiskey and that is true except in Sunday blue law states which created a demand for bonded liquor and beer...on The Lord's day.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#135. To: Jethro Tull (#122)
Send me a reminder to vote once you decide to run for king again, gov.
Now, add a bud light to the equation and MADD stains their pants.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#136. To: Dakmar (#133)
I remeber hearing co-workers in Pennsylvania describe similar setup. YUP! That's the OTHER COMMONWEALTH with badge wearing state store employees. (There are four commonwealths, MA and KY being the other two. Neither of these have govt controlled state stores for liquor sales.)
hard liquor is purchased at state stores from a govt employee who wears a badge and who assesses the character of each sinner who buys "The Devil's Elixer")
#137. To: Dakmar (#134)
Robert Mitchum!
Makes me sad I loaned out my DVD of Thunder Road to my supervisor at work.
#138. To: HOUNDDAWG (#136)
I'll never forget the time I drove to Cincinnati to attend a "rock concert". I must have been accosted my like 400 miscreants offering me 5ickets to the event I'd just driven 2 hours to attend. Apparently scalping is illegal and therefor lucrative in Ohio?
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#139. To: HOUNDDAWG (#137)
I'll get it back. This is same person I loaned original manuscript for Naked Lunch to in 1952.
Makes me sad I loaned out my DVD of Thunder Road to my supervisor at work.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#140. To: Dakmar (#138)
Actually, scalping is regulated at the municipal level in OH, and the strictest law is Cleveland I believe. ($250 fine and 30 days in the clink) The tragic deaths of 11 concert goers at the WHO concert in CINN in 1979 leads me to believe that the venue and others in OH attract a lot of patrons from surrounding rural areas and states, and that "big city excitement" as well as a lack of TICKETMASTERS outlets (combined with the foolish and dangerous practice of festival seating and resulting in disaster that night) may create a vigorous market for scalped tickets.
#141. To: HOUNDDAWG (#140)
I suggest we start with a list of major roads, cattle trails, and heliports, work backward from there...
OH attract a lot of patrons from surrounding rural areas and states,
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
#142. To: Dakmar (#141)
Funny! I used to drive up to Lansdale, PA (in the Poconos) every Monday to restock my truck with parts, and near the shop I drove on a long, two lane road called Cowpath! It was called that because, well, I guess you can figure that out.....
I suggest we start with a list of major roads, cattle trails, and heliports, work backward from there...
#143. To: christine. the thread (#103)
With open-carry, I believe that it could work quite nicely.
i've always said i'd prefer anarchy over what we have now, but could it really work?
#144. To: PSUSA (#93)
these laws supposdly compelling people to affix and breathe into some machine AFTER they have been sentenced and convicted and served their time is complete BS. i cant even believe anyone on this site would fall for that BS for one minute. i suppose nothing should surprise me anymore.?
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#145. To: Artisan (#144)
There is a strong argument against drunk driving.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#146. To: wudidiz (#145)
of course, as i said before, getting hit by 3 drunk drivers in my life i know! i dont even drink (not that im against it, just dont care for it) and i dont care for drunks. but these prohibitionist control freak kooks, what gives govt any authority to install and compel murikans to put breathing devices affixed to their autos? man thats right out of the twilight zone!
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#147. To: Critter, JETHRO TULL, all (#125)
One of the ones with brass balls. THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT ALL HERE SHOULD KNOW!!
The ORIGINAL INTENT is that it is better to have guilty men run free than innocent men punished.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Countries Without a Draft circa 2001 (You'll need this soon if you have kids) RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP 
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
#148. To: Artisan (#146)
Yeah, that is a little too much. Maybe they could just install them on the drunks?
....what gives govt any authority to install and compel murikans to put breathing devices affixed to their autos? man thats right out of the twilight zone!
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#149. To: Critter (#126)
Funny how they never claim to not be assholes. They ask where I am going, none of your business, where have you been, none of your business, may I leave now? They give me my "papers" back and say drive safe, I say after you, I don't like assholes on my bumper. Or when I go through a DUI roadblock and they ask like questions and I return like answers, and they have the gall to say to me that they have a right to make sure I am safe to drive. Fuck them. They have a right to kiss my ass too. ha ha. man i like O_I but aside from the personalities that post of yours is a great post and deserves a ping. LOL!! the next time you do that to the pigs can you please videotape it and post it to you tube?? ;-D
It has happened to me about half a dozen times in two years. They are greeted with complete and total contempt by me. They ask, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I say, "I have no FUCKING idea!". They say my tire touched the yellow line, I say, that it is because I had some asshole riding on my bumper with his high beams on. They invariably say, "I didn't have my high beams on."
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#150. To: Jethro Tull (#0) (Edited)
Why not just buy 30 feet of 3/8" or 1/2" plastic tubing, whichever would fit, blow in it when you sober and, when you need to, fit one end of the 30 foot coil over the the part you blow in and blow on the other end of the tubing. There would be enough air (40 cubic inches) in the tubing to pass the breath-monitoring gadget. It would simple, would not cost much, and no cop would question that you might need some plastic tubing for your ice maker. Also, if you need to blow a short time later just suck on one end to remove your air and fill it with ordinary air.
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