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Title: Prayer is worthless, and I can prove it
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Published: Jan 13, 2009
Author: Hagee
Post Date: 2009-01-13 20:40:35 by Hagee
Keywords: None
Views: 796
Comments: 44
What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way: Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen. We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Will anything happen? No. Of course not. This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%. If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens. In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain,'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying. In Matthew 21:21: I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain,'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."
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#5. To: Cynicom (#1)
Day after day is too much. Yes, you cannot argue these things here without going off the wire most of the time. You can argue about what Obama said, and you can look it up and check the context etc., etc. But if you argue about what Jesus said it's "That's not what it says in Greek, but in Hebrew it's this, no he wasn't referring to the Prophets you poltroon . . ." Meanwhile, no one involved possesses a tenth of the scholarship required to say anything verifiable, falsifiable or halfway literate on the topic they're having a razor fight over. It's more than I can handle anyway. (You can never get enough Turtle, though.)
Most peole don't pray correctly.
I've noticed that the deeply disturbed and brainwashed people always always try to resort to the most petty personal attacks when someone has the nerve to say something they disagree with. Don't get upset because I correctly pointed out that prayer is useless using irrefutable logic. It's not my fault your mind is so feeble you believe all the fairy tales you were told as a child. But let me ask you something, is a 0.01% success rate on answered prayers (it's probably much, much lower, but I'm being generous) something to be happy with? Have you ever thought that .01% of prayers that actually do come true are things that would have happened anyway, and in whatever happened to you? Is it just possible that since almost no prayers are answers, "god" really doesn't give two shits what you say?
Dear God, Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket. Thank you, Turtle P.S. Please kill John Hagee.
In politics there is no murder.
Please enlighten the masses who surround the Book like ants on a cube of sugar.
Don't presume to be a Bible scholar, or to know the mind of God. Got back to Genesis, discover the meaning of sin and a *fallen* world. Then weigh in on why God answers *all* prayers, but some not to our temporary liking. Don't try to make a theological case. Yours is weak and threadbare.
“Of two evils, choose neither”. Charles H. Spurgeon
You did no such thing. Your logic is the same as those that say 19 Arabs did 9/11.
God is always good!
This falls under the personal attacks you nutters "answer" with. You haven't bothered to disprove my thesis because you can't.
Hey, say what you want about me, but at least I'm not a liar. 9/11 was BushCheney, Inc. ALL of your prayers are answered? Either you're really reaching to prove your point, or you're just delusional.
Spend a few minutes doing some research. Come back and explain what the probability is of a human being engaging in normal activity of any kind and I mean any activity - if the entire front half of their brain has been destroyed. MRI and CT scans show that the frontal, temporal, occipital and parietal lobes of the brain (both left and right) are destroyed - no longer exist - just mush, water, blood and brain fluid. Also, EEGs indicate no activity from what would be these parts of the brain. Also, research and see what the probability of a person dying and the brain going without oxygen for appx 21 minutes. Person is deceased and no further medical attention is administered. Research this and then come back and describe the condition of a human being with the above, if they could still be alive let alone function. Here, I will give you a head start. Frontal Lobe: Planning, speech, reasoning, emotions, judgment, intellect, creative thought, and coordination of movement, sexual urges, problem solving and abstract thinking. Parietal Lobe: Orientation, perception of stimuli, movement, and orientation. Temporal Lobe: Memory, hearing, fear, some emotions, visual memories, auditory memories, and speech. http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec16/ch210/ch210a.html http://www.waiting.com/brainanatomy.html
I knows a troll when I sees one. Put up, or shut up, mary... you know, 'personal attacks'. I know who you are.
“Of two evils, choose neither”. Charles H. Spurgeon
LOL.
“Of two evils, choose neither”. Charles H. Spurgeon
What a cheap shot argument. Why don't you leave the nice folks who pray here alone? They ain't doing you no harm. Get a life. Go surf Chix with Dix.
PRAYER STILL USELESS Why do they bother? Yet another group has performed a study into intercessory prayer and yet again has concluded that prayer doesn’t do anything: Praying for patients undergoing heart operations does not improve their outcomes, a US study suggests. A study found those who were prayed for were as likely to have a setback in hospital, be re-admitted, or die within six months as those not prayed for. Duh! Numerous other studies have replicated this same (lack of) result. Praying doesn’t change anything, or only does when subjects thought they were in the prayer group (ie it is a placebo). I’m not saying that there aren’t studies that show prayer has an effect. There have been several such studies, but eventually they are shown to be flawed, and/or when the controls are tightened the effect disappears, and/or they have been shown to be fraudulent. I give three examples below. Byrd One of the most frequently quoted “successful” studies was by Randolph Byrd of the San Francisco General Medical Center: To evaluate the effects of IP (intercessory prayer) in a coronary care unit (CCU) population, a prospective randomized double-blind protocol was followed. Over ten months, 393 patients admitted to the CCU were randomized, after signing informed consent, to an intercessory prayer group (192 patients) or to a control group (201 patients). [Snip] The control patients required ventilatory assistance, antibiotics, and diuretics more frequently than patients in the IP group. These data suggest that intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU. Byrd claimed that the prayer group did better than the control in six categories. But there were severe methodological problems with this study. First, no significant differences were found among the other twenty categories being evaluated, including mortality, despite explicit prayers for prevention of death. Byrd had cherry-picked the six categories that happened to support his hypothesis and ignored the others. Second, in looking at outcomes in those six categories that did support his conclusion, Byrd ignored the interrelationships between the categories. For example, the development of congestive heart failure automatically leads to the need for diuretics; the development of pneumonia automatically requires the use of antibiotics. Since these were not independent events he hadn’t really even reported success in six categories; three at most. And third, there was no significant difference in length of recovery period, despite explicit prayers for a rapid recovery. This is what counts as success, apparently.
~ I've had numerous prayers answered ore the years, don't follow any rules either, I can't seem to get lottery numbers on time yet, but hey, it was worth trying ... but tis true enough, if you think prayer is BS, I canna prove you wrong ... you win
Thank you. That is a rational conclusion.
The very premise of your post is inflammatory trolling, regardless of the subject matter. You don't deserve a response. You're gone TROLL.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Countries Without a Draft circa 2001 (You'll need this soon if you have kids) RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP that's certainly a vaild potential viewpoint to settle upon, but this is also an opportunity to tell a story, some real-world happening in yer life when prayer worked for you ... I realize you don't know me and that opinion may be out of line, but I wanted to offer it anyway ~ peas2U
Many people in crisis find prayer comforting, and I'm told that it fortifies their faith and gives them the strength to accept their fates with grace. (Remember Karla Faye Tucker? She positively glowed, and it was obvious to millions who saw and heard her before her execution) At times when there is little or nothing else to which they may cling it can be a crucial survival or coping tool, and that hardly qualifies as "worthless". (I suppose you've never been in a foxhole where your mates were murdered each time one slipped out to answer nature's call or fell asleep.) And, in the scenario you setup to "prove your case" you've completely missed a fundamental tenet of the faith. That is, if people believe that His kingdom is not of this Earth and their place near the throne is assured, then selfish prayers to patch holes in the temporal shells (and to test the Lord which is also a sin) would be antithetical to Christian beliefs. If I was terminal and believed in the Heavenly reward I'd pray for strength until such time as The Lord sees fit to call me home. And, then I'd serve as an example of faith to others who fear death and in so doing fortify the weak and fearful and glorify God. If that offered no tangible proof for you it wouldn't discourage me or those in need. Especially since your cynicism could vaporize in an instant after surviving a lightning strike or other near death experience. People like you often make the best witnesses....
I'm still waiting for you to tell us about the injuries and what the prognosis would be for a person with that type of injury. No response?
can I? will this get me boozoed? ~ I drove a taxi in Austin, TX back in 1986, used it and the city to explore my belief systems, experiment a lil ... prayer was very real but one particular event can be partially backed up by police records ... if they keep em that far back .. ~ as part of my experiment, I prayed (asked) one night to be led to a stranded motorist, someone broke, I'ld help em out ... it turned out to be a 2, 4 one kinda night ... I did meet a stranded motorist, drove him all the way to Jonestown for free, all the while reminding myself to be more careful with requests ... ~ the real magic occurred on the way back to town though, I ended up in the right place at the right time to rescue a man who had been beaten and left in the ditch with his hands bound, the light on my taxi is the only reason he came out of the ditch to flag me down .... sherrif couldn't understand what the hell I was doing out there that time a night *s my prayer was answered and so was his ... I was rather impressed, and humbled ... I canna prove all of it, but there is a couple men out there who remember that odd cabby who helped em, their prayers were answered ~ not sure what the cop decided? "Onward Through The Fog" :0)
I just prayed again, this time for God to strike down GWB, John McCain, and every Republican who refuses to insist on deporting illegal shit from mexico.
It is very refreshing to find that at least several of you 'get it!' Where in the 'Word' is it written that prayer results in instant gratification? Prayers that are expressed humbly and sincerely will indeed be answered; that has been promised. But there are several 'howevers' that must be considered. While this World is yet, temporarily, in the hands of the 'Ruler of this World' we who believe will experience tribulation and great difficulty. And we must 'endure' to the very end never giving up hope. The Helper is always with us to provide strength and reassurance until the time is right. Even death will be undone. The time for the fulfillment of the prophecies is drawing very near. The Lamb has told us that for our Father all things are possible. Patience.
My views on God are quite expansive and quite different than your standard model though strangely enough I still adhere to the Christian Bible. I will say that most people pray for a specific outcome. That is the first wrong. Praying a specific outcome does not "give it over to God", it directs God. This is counter to what the Bible teaches. People tend to anthropomorphize God. Bad move. God by his very nature would have to exist outside known space time. Outside the possible 11 dimensions and able to manipulate all of the above. God being an all knowing, infinite being would have to take all conceivable ramifications into consideration before working for any specific outcome. Consider the butterfly effect over millennia. Prayer is nothing more than a memo to the Executive about a problem he needs to attend to. You want to suggest possible solutions, that's fine but in the end it is his decision on how to handle it.
No. I don't believe like I should. If I did then I wouldn't be wasting my time on an Internet forum, I would be telling people about Jesus face to face. That is my problem that hopefully I will fix. True faith in God is rare thing indeed.
God is always good!
Yes all of my prayers are answered. see my post 28.
That's great. My aren't. But it is not God's fault, it is mine. I doubt he even hears mine with my wicked mind.
God is always good!
I used to drive a taxi, too, and it was the strangest job. I got several people who prayed they got a good driver, because they were in a bad situation and had a lot of things to do, and then I showed up. After a while I began to wonder.
In politics there is no murder.
Does this mean that you kicked him off the site and banned him or that you just put him on bozo? I ask because he hasn't posted since you made this statement. I was under the impression that only Christine could kick people off and ban them.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
Really? So you think God is some kind of genie that must grant you your wishes? If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens. So, by praying you are attempting to force God to cure cancer? Using that argument, no one would die. You could just pray on your deathbed "Hey God, make me a 21 year old again". Right? And "God I need some spending money. A million ought to do for now". Right? So, either Christ was a liar, and quite insane, or He was telling the truth about something you don't even come close to understanding. .
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”
it means Indie bozo'd him.
Doesn't work like that. If it did, how would he ever hear a plea for salvation?
i agree. i would have liked to have read some more personal anecdotes (like moonie's) of those who are convinced that their prayers were answered.
great story and what a neat prayer that God would use you to help another. makes me wonder what/who caused you to ask that just then. perhaps your rescuees' guardian angels?
Don't try to make a theological case. Yours is weak and threadbare. Good reply. All prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes it is no and sometimes it is not now. The fact that people don't like the answer or just can't understand why God does not automatically give them everything they want shows that they are clay judging the potter. And who think they can understand the mind and know the ways of God which they don't and can't.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. I was driving at night thru WY, on I80 between Cheyenne and Laramie, in the winter. There is a port of entry in Cheyenne where trucks are weighed and paperwork checked. It was sprinkling with a few flakes mixed in. I asked the DOT what the weather was up ahead. No problem. I checked the weather band radio. No problem. Well, there was a problem. That stretch of road past Cheyenne is flat, and infamous for blowing snow. And the snow was blowing hard. I got vertigo. I thought I was moving, but I wasn't. This scared me and I asked God to let me get thru it. The road was horrible and I was in mucho trouble. Then I came to the downhill grade into Laramie. My windshield was iced up and I had to pull over onto the shoulder to clear it. I reached down to engage the tractor brakes, and I heard a crack. What was a mostly iced up windshield was crystal clear. Not so much as a drop of water on it. No ice anywhere in sight. It was all downhill from there. For a long time, no one was behind me. They must have shut the road down after I went through. That was The Biggie. There have been other instances when I heard that still small voice tell me something, minor stuff usually, that comes to pass within a few minutes. Either it is to show me something (like a "star" blinking out, twice) to watching out for a driver that lost a placard. .
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Nehemiah 4:14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”
His first Google hit would be (M)Ann Coulter's website.
Oh..He will. He most certainly has a list and is checking it thrice.
4um Traitor I most unfortunately tripped upon faux news when she was servicing mike huckleberry the arkansas globalist tool.
4um Traitor &
Enough religion aready.
#6. To: Hagee (#0)
This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#7. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#2)
#8. To: Hagee (#0)
#9. To: farmfriend (#6)
Most peole don't pray correctly.
#10. To: Hagee (#0)
#11. To: Hagee (#7)
Don't get upset because I correctly pointed out that prayer is useless using irrefutable logic.
#12. To: Old Fud (#10)
#13. To: RickyJ (#11)
#14. To: Hagee (#7)
(Edited)
#15. To: Hagee (#12)
This falls under the personal attacks...
#16. To: Hagee (#12)
This falls under the personal attacks you nutters
#17. To: Hagee (#7)
#18. To: randge, old Fud (#17)
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/prayer_still_us.html
#19. To: Hagee (#12)
You haven't bothered to disprove my thesis because you can't.
#20. To: Amandil (#19)
#21. To: Hagee, ALL (#0)
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
#22. To: anyone who thinks this is a troll post (#21)
The very premise of your post is inflammatory trolling, regardless of the subject matter.
#23. To: Hagee (#0)
Prayer is worthless, and I can prove it
#24. To: Hagee (#18)
#25. To: All (#22)
this is also an opportunity to tell a story, some real-world happening in yer life when prayer worked for you
#26. To: All (#3)
I pray that God will strike down Obama and every American who voted for him.
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#27. To: All above who have spoken (#25)
Chilluns, chilluns, mind your manners now!
#28. To: Hagee, Original_Intent (#9)
Please enlighten the masses who surround the Book like ants on a cube of sugar.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#29. To: Hagee (#13)
ALL of your prayers are answered?
#30. To: Hagee, RickyJ (#13)
ALL of your prayers are answered?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#31. To: farmfriend (#30)
Yes all of my prayers are answered. see my post 28.
#32. To: Amandil (#25)
#33. To: IndieTX (#21)
The very premise of your post is inflammatory trolling, regardless of the subject matter. You don't deserve a response. You're gone TROLL.
#34. To: Hagee (#0)
Prayer is worthless, and I can prove it
#35. To: Hayek Fan (#33)
#36. To: RickyJ (#31)
I doubt he even hears mine with my wicked mind.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#37. To: Amandil, bush_is_a_moonie (#22)
but this is also an opportunity to tell a story, some real-world happening in yer life when prayer worked for you
#38. To: Amandil (#25)
(Edited)
#39. To: Old Fud (#10)
Don't presume to be a Bible scholar, or to know the mind of God. Got back to Genesis, discover the meaning of sin and a *fallen* world. Then weigh in on why God answers *all* prayers, but some not to our temporary liking.
Lord Acton
#40. To: christine, All (#37)
i would have liked to have read some more personal anecdotes (like moonie's) of those who are convinced that their prayers were answered.
#41. To: randge (#17)
(Edited)
Get a life. Go surf Chix with Dix.
#42. To: X-15 (#3)
I pray that God will strike down Obama and every American who voted for him.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#43. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#41)
His first Google hit would be (M)Ann Coulter's website.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#44. To: Bump to all the preachers (#0)
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