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Title: Paying Back Caesar’s Things to Caesar
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Published: Jan 30, 2009
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2009-01-30 14:04:22 by richard9151
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Views: 793
Comments: 67
Paying Back Caesar’s Things to Caesar “Render to all their dues.”—ROMANS 13:7. ACCORDING to Jesus, there are things we owe to God and things we owe to Caesar, or the State. Jesus said: “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” In these few words, he confounded his enemies and neatly summed up the balanced attitude we must have in our relationship with God and in our dealings with the State. No wonder that his listeners “began to marvel at him”!—Mark 12:17. 2 Of course, the first concern of Jehovah’s servants is that they pay back God’s things to God. (Psalm 116:12-14) In doing so, however, they do not forget that Jesus said that they must render certain things to Caesar. Their Bible-trained consciences require that they consider prayerfully to what extent they can pay back what Caesar calls for. (Romans 13:7) In modern times, many jurists have recognized that governmental power has limits and that people and governments everywhere are bound by natural law. 3 The apostle Paul referred to this natural law when he wrote about people of the world: “What may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.” If they will respond to it, natural law will even move the consciences of these unbelievers. Thus, Paul further said: “Whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them.”—Romans 1:19, 20; 2:14, 15. 4 In the 18th century, the renowned English jurist William Blackstone wrote: “This law of nature [natural law], being co-eval with [the same age as] mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this.” Blackstone went on to speak of “revealed law,” as found in the Bible, and he commented: “Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered [allowed] to contradict these.” This is in harmony with what Jesus said about God and Caesar, as recorded at Mark 12:17. Clearly, there are areas where God limits what Caesar can require of a Christian. The Sanhedrin strayed into just such an area when they commanded the apostles to stop preaching about Jesus. Hence, the apostles correctly responded: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”—Acts 5:28, 29. “God’s Things” 5 Especially since 1914, when Jehovah God, the Almighty, began ruling as king through Christ’s Messianic Kingdom, have Christians had to be sure not to give God’s things to Caesar. (Revelation 11:15, 17) As never before, God’s law now calls on Christians to be “no part of the world.” (John 17:16) Being dedicated to God, their Life-Giver, they must demonstrate clearly that they no longer belong to themselves. (Psalm 100:2, 3) As Paul wrote, “we belong to Jehovah.” (Romans 14:8) Moreover, at a Christian’s baptism, he is ordained as a minister of God, so that he can say with Paul: “God . . . has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers.”—2 Corinthians 3:5, 6. 6 The apostle Paul also wrote: “I glorify my ministry.” (Romans 11:13) Surely we should do likewise. Whether we share in the ministry full-time or part-time, we keep in mind that Jehovah himself assigned us to our ministry. (2 Corinthians 2:17) Since some may challenge our position, every dedicated, baptized Christian must be ready to furnish clear and positive proof that he truly is a minister of the good news. (1 Peter 3:15) His ministry should also be evidenced in his conduct. As a minister of God, a Christian should advocate and practice clean morals, uphold family unity, be honest, and show respect for law and order. (Romans 12:17, 18; 1 Thessalonians 5:15) A Christian’s relationship with God and his divinely assigned ministry are the most important things in his life. He cannot give these up at the behest of Caesar. Clearly, they are to be counted among “God’s things.” “Caesar’s Things” 7 Jehovah’s Witnesses know that they owe “subjection to the superior authorities,” the governmental rulers. (Romans 13:1) Hence, when Caesar, the State, makes legitimate demands, their Bible-trained consciences allow them to satisfy these demands. For example, true Christians are among the most exemplary taxpayers on earth. In Germany the newspaper Münchner Merkur said of Jehovah’s Witnesses: “They are the most honest and the most punctual tax payers in the Federal Republic.” In Italy the newspaper La Stampa observed: “They [Jehovah’s Witnesses] are the most loyal citizens anyone could wish for: they do not dodge taxes or seek to evade inconvenient laws for their own profit.” Jehovah’s servants do this ‘on account of their consciences.’—Romans 13:5, 6. 8 Are “Caesar’s things” limited to paying taxes? No. Paul listed other things, such as fear and honor. In his Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book to the Gospel of Matthew, German scholar Heinrich Meyer wrote: “By [Caesar’s things] . . . we are not to understand merely the civil tax, but everything to which Caesar was entitled in virtue of his legitimate rule.” Historian E. W. Barnes, in his work The Rise of Christianity, observed that a Christian would pay taxes if he owed them and “likewise accept all other State obligations, provided he was not called upon to render unto Caesar the things that belonged to God.” 9 What things might the State require without encroaching on the things that rightfully belong to God? Some have felt that they could legitimately give Caesar money in the form of taxes but nothing else. They certainly would not feel comfortable giving Caesar anything that might take up time that could be used for theocratic activities. Nevertheless, while it is true that we should ‘love Jehovah our God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength,’ Jehovah does expect us to spend time in things other than our sacred service. (Mark 12:30; Philippians 3:3) For example, a married Christian is counseled to devote time to pleasing his or her marriage mate. Such activities are not bad, but the apostle Paul states that they are “the things of the world” not “the things of the Lord.”—1 Corinthians 7:32-34; compare 1 Timothy 5:8. 10 Further, Christ authorized his followers to “pay back” taxes, and this certainly involves using time that is dedicated to Jehovah—since our entire lives are dedicated in this way. If the average taxation in a country is 33 percent of income (it is higher in some countries), this means that each year the average worker pays to the State Treasury four months’ worth of his earnings. Put another way, at the end of his working life, the average worker will have spent about 15 years earning the tax money that “Caesar” requires. Consider, too, the matter of schooling. In most countries the law requires that parents have their children attend school for a minimum number of years. The number of years of schooling varies from country to country. In most places it is a substantial length of time. True, such schooling is usually beneficial, but it is Caesar who decides what portion of a child’s life must be spent in this way, and Christian parents comply with Caesar’s decision. Compulsory Military Service 11 Another demand made by Caesar in some countries is compulsory military service. In the 20th century, this arrangement has been instituted by most nations in times of war and by some in times of peace as well. In France this obligation was for many years called blood tax, meaning that every young man had to be willing to lay down his life for the State. Is this something that those dedicated to Jehovah can conscientiously render? How did the first-century Christians view this matter? 12 While the earliest Christians endeavored to be good citizens, their faith prevented them from taking the life of another or from sacrificing their own lives for the State. The Encyclopedia of Religion states: “The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen, affirmed that Christians were constrained from taking human life, a principle that prevented them from participating in the Roman army.” In his book The Early Church and the World, Professor C. J. Cadoux writes: “Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” 13 Why do members of the churches of Christendom not view things this way today? Because of a radical change that took place in the fourth century. The Catholic work A History of the Christian Councils explains: “Many Christians, . . . under the pagan emperors, had religious scruples with regard to military service, and positively refused to take arms, or else deserted. The Synod [of Arles, held in 314 C.E.], in considering the changes introduced by Constantine, set forth the obligation that Christians have to serve in war, . . . because the Church is at peace (in pace) under a prince friendly to Christians.” As a result of this abandonment of Jesus’ teachings, from that time until now, the clergy of Christendom have encouraged their flocks to serve in the armies of the nations, although some individuals have taken a stand as conscientious objectors. 14 Are Christians today obliged to follow the majority in this matter? No. If a dedicated, baptized Christian lives in a country where exemption from military service is granted to ministers of religion, he may avail himself of this provision, for he is in fact a minister. (2 Timothy 4:5) A number of countries, including the United States and Australia, have granted such exemption even in wartime. And during peacetime, in many lands that maintain compulsory military service, Jehovah’s Witnesses, as ministers of religion, are granted exemption. Thus they can continue helping the people by their public service. 15 What, though, if the Christian lives in a land where exemption is not granted to ministers of religion? Then he will have to make a personal decision following his Bible-trained conscience. (Galatians 6:5) While taking the authority of Caesar into account, he will weigh carefully what he owes to Jehovah. (Psalm 36:9; 116:12-14; Acts 17:28) The Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17) Further, he will not forget the Scriptural principles found in texts such as Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 26:52; Romans 12:18; 14:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4; and Hebrews 12:14. Civilian Service 16 However, there are lands where the State, while not allowing exemption for ministers of religion, nevertheless acknowledges that some individuals may object to military service. Many of these lands make provision for such conscientious individuals not to be forced into military service. In some places a required civilian service, such as useful work in the community, is regarded as nonmilitary national service. Could a dedicated Christian undertake such service? Here again, a dedicated, baptized Christian would have to make his own decision on the basis of his Bible-trained conscience. 17 It seems that compulsory service was practiced in Bible times. One history book states: “In addition to the taxes and dues exacted from the inhabitants of Judea, there was also a corvée [unpaid labor exacted by public authorities]. This was an ancient institution in the East, which the Hellenistic and Roman authorities continued to maintain. . . . The New Testament, too, cites examples of corvée in Judea, showing how widespread it was. In accordance with this custom, the soldiers pressed Simon of Cyrene into carrying Jesus’ cross [torture stake] (Matthew 5:41; 27:32; Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26).” 18 Similarly, citizens in some countries today are required by the State or by local authorities to participate in various forms of community service. Sometimes this is for a specific task, such as digging wells or building roads; sometimes it is on a regular basis, such as weekly participation in cleaning up roads, schools, or hospitals. Where such civilian service is for the good of the community and is not connected with false religion or is not in some other way objectionable to the consciences of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they have often complied. (1 Peter 2:13-15) This has usually resulted in an excellent witness and has sometimes silenced those who falsely accuse the Witnesses of being antigovernment.—Compare Matthew 10:18. 19 What, though, if the State requires a Christian for a period of time to perform civilian service that is a part of national service under a civilian administration? Here again, Christians must make their own decision based on an informed conscience. “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.” (Romans 14:10) Christians faced with a requirement of Caesar should prayerfully study the matter and meditate on it. It may also be wise to talk the matter over with mature Christians in the congregation. After this a personal decision must be made.—Proverbs 2:1-5; Philippians 4:5. 20 While engaged in such research, Christians would consider a number of Bible principles. Paul said that we must “be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, . . . be ready for every good work . . . be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men.” (Titus 3:1, 2) At the same time, Christians would do well to examine the proposed civilian work. If they accept it, will they be able to maintain Christian neutrality? (Micah 4:3, 5; John 17:16) Would it involve them with some false religion? (Revelation 18:4, 20, 21) Would performing it prevent or unreasonably limit them from fulfilling their Christian responsibilities? (Matthew 24:14; Hebrews 10:24, 25) On the other hand, would they be able to continue to make spiritual progress, perhaps even sharing in the full-time ministry while performing the required service?—Hebrews 6:11, 12. 21 What if the Christian’s honest answers to such questions lead him to conclude that the national civilian service is a “good work” that he can perform in obedience to the authorities? That is his decision before Jehovah. Appointed elders and others should fully respect the conscience of the brother and continue to regard him as a Christian in good standing. If, however, a Christian feels that he cannot perform this civilian service, his position should also be respected. He too remains in good standing and should receive loving support.—1 Corinthians 10:29; 2 Corinthians 1:24; 1 Peter 3:16. 22 As Christians we will not cease to render “to him who calls for honor, such honor.” (Romans 13:7) We will respect good order and seek to be peaceful, law-abiding citizens. (Psalm 34:14) We may even pray “concerning kings and all those who are in high station” when these men are called upon to make decisions that affect our Christian life and work. As a result of our paying back Caesar’s things to Caesar, we hope that “we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.” (1 Timothy 2:1, 2) Above all, we will continue to preach the good news of the Kingdom as mankind’s only hope, conscientiously paying back God’s things to God.
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#10. To: PSUSA (#7)
That is a silly statement, and I think you well know it. No one is prophecizing. They are trying to find and understand the secrets of the 7 seals. Those prophecies have already been made. How can they be made yet again?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
HA HA HA!! That is funny! Thanks, I needed a good laugh! You bet, Mexico has troops in more than 127 nations, has invaded how many nations since WWII? I forget, so fill me in. And, of course, Mexico is still involved in a war that has killed more than a million Iraqia and thousands, probably tens of thousands, of Afgans. In addition, the secret arm of the intelligence division of the Mexican government has been shown to control much of the world's illegal drug trade (you know, the CIA of Mexico), and is now in the process of bailing out the richest of the rich on Wall Street!!!!!! So, yes, THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Why would He have to defeat Satan? He can destroy Satan at any time that He wishes, so, obviously, Satan serves another purpose. That purpose is in teaching us that we can not live without guidance from Almighty God. We do not have the right to question His Word, as you do. I find it hard to understand your position on most issues, when the Bible is so clear about it. For instance, on taxes..... WHO CARES!!! : “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal”!—Matt. 6:19, 20. I was in the Kingdom Hall a few weeks ago, and a young woman seated nearby make a comment that showed more wisdom than I have ever read in the 4um: All we are trying to do is get through this world and reach our real life. The 'world' she mentions meaning the great mass of humanity which is under the control of Satan; “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Good post. Except *I* care enough to steward those resources He has entrusted to me and resist evil, especially from the thief who comes to murder, steal and destroy.
4um Traitor OK, they are false interpretations (read: lies) of prophecies. Feel better now? But then again, I am right. They are false prophecies given by false prophets. 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing (5723) this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is (5736) of any private interpretation. Prophets are teachers. www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4394 1. prophecy 1. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events 2. Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets 1. of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due 2. of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets 3. the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ JW, as much as you will hate to admit it, do NOT have a lock on scriptural truth. They are just as full of apostasy as any other worldly church or cult.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Good. I am glad that you are a good steward. That counts for a lot. AS LONG AS YOU DO SO AS GOD COMMANDS. If not, then your stewardship counts for nothing. The bottom line of the Bible is that life is precious. But that does not speak for just this life; it also speaks to the second death, and our responsibility to see to it that as many as possible can share in a continued life on this earth. THAT IS OUR PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY. So if someone dies on this earth without the opportunity to share in the good news of the Kingdom of God, that is a failure on our part. If we are in any way, manner, shape or form responsible for that death, well, you should study bloodguilt. Pretty interesting. In fact, I will put up a post about it. Because bloodguilt also applies when we fail in our responsibilities to preach the good news, and those that we could have reached die without the knowledge that leads to continued life. Against that, of just one life, of what worth is all of the treasures of the earth?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
How silly. You say that prophets are teachers, then claim that the Witnesses are doing prophecy because they are teachers, when you even post the above!! An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. As shown under PROPHET, prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages (Heb., na·va’82;; Gr., pro·phe·teu82;o); yet it forms an outstanding feature of Bible prophecy. Illustrating the sense of the original words are these examples: When Ezekiel in a vision was told to “prophesy to the wind,” he simply expressed God’s command to the wind. (Eze 37:9, 10) When individuals at Jesus’ trial covered him, slapped him, and then said, “Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?” they were not calling for prediction but for Jesus to identify the slappers by divine revelation. (Mt 26:67, 68; Lu 22:63, 64) The Samaritan woman at the well recognized Jesus as “a prophet” because he revealed things about her past that he could not have known except by divine power. (Joh 4:17-19; compare Lu 7:39.) So, too, such Scriptural portions as Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and his denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees (Mt 23:1-36) may properly be defined as prophecy, for these were an inspired ‘telling forth’ of God’s mind on matters, even as were the pronouncements by Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other earlier prophets.—Compare Isa 65:13-16 and Lu 6:20-25. Ain't no one claiming to be an inspired prophet today from the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are just as full of apostasy as any other worldly church or cult. OK. Prove it. Show me, in detail, how they are a part of the world. Now, maybe you know more than I do, but I doubt it, cause I study with them on nearly a daily basis, and I see, first hand, how separate they are from the world. But, here is your chance, show me. They do not vote. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. But, you do. None of them serve in any government of the earth. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. And if they did, they would be expelled. Which you would consider to be silly. None of them smoke. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Perhaps you do. They do not drink to excess. Ever. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Probably you do not see anything wrong with such excesses. They do not serve in the military of any nation. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Coure, you probably think that is silly. They enforce the law about no divorce (except as allowed in the Bible) and do not leave their families for younger or richer women. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. And if they do, they are expelled. But you probably think this is silly as well. Many of them work part time to support their families, and preach at every opportunity. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Many preach full time. But again, you probably think this is silly. As a group, they give away more Bible and Bible based liturature than any other group in the world. Period. They sell nothing. But again, you probably think that this is silly. But go ahead, show me how worldly they are.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Book. chapter and verse, please? Good luck finding that. Satans' purpose is to destroy the flesh. 1 Cor 5:5 says: To deliver (5629) such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved (5686) in the day of the Lord Jesus. So, is Paul advocating satanism? Or does he simply state Satans' job? How about Peter? Be sober (5657) , be vigilant (5657) ; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring (5740) lion, walketh about (5719) , seeking (5723) whom he may devour (5632) : Devour what? What does Satan eat? Dust shall you eat. Serpents dont eat dust.. What's our FLESH made of? So, seeing the world as it is, who is winning? What's the score? Using the worlds, and your standards, God is an infinitely bigger loser than the '68 Mets. Here we have the vast majority of His creation being drug down to "hell" to be tortured "forever", or they will suffer a "kinder and gentler" fate and be annihilated forever. Satan has been kicking Gods' butt for who knows how many years. Am I the only one that sees the total stupidity of that??? All that's left for God is crumbs off the table. Poor Poor God, woe is he. Seriously, this is funny stuff! Why worship a loser? You might as well be a satanist and go with a winner! We do not have the right to question His Word, as you do. I dont question His word. I question YOU. And evidently you dont like it. You are not nearly as smart as you think you are. I was in the Kingdom Hall a few weeks ago, and a young woman seated nearby make a comment that showed more wisdom than I have ever read in the 4um: All we are trying to do is get through this world and reach our real life. If she is not one of the "144,000", then she is wasting her time, right? 7 million JW, 144,000 vacancies, someones getting left out in the cold. But maybe if you WORK REAL HARD you stand a good chance of earning your spot... But if they are SO WISE, and we are SO DUMB, why post here? Why cast your "pearls" before us swine?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Nope. Try again. Prophets are teachers. They dont just "predict" the future. I gave you the definition. They give their own private interpretations, and they are always WRONG! They do not vote. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. But, you do. No I dont. None of them serve in any government of the earth. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. And if they did, they would be expelled. Which you would consider to be silly. Expelled? You mean disfellowshipped? Kindly point out to me where scripture forbids serving in .gov in any capacity? None of them smoke. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Perhaps you do. I do. Wish I didn't but we all have our problems. They do not drink to excess. Ever. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Probably you do not see anything wrong with such excesses. SURELY that will earn them a spot in "heaven". Too bad for the Lutherans though, huh? They drink like fish. But we are told not to drink to excess. Having been drunk precisely 1 time, I swore I would never do that again... They do not serve in the military of any nation. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Coure, you probably think that is silly. No, I think that's admirable. They enforce the law about no divorce (except as allowed in the Bible) and do not leave their families for younger or richer women. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM. And if they do, they are expelled. But you probably think this is silly as well. Well, if not drinking to excess will help them get into heaven, then this will, for sure. But Christ said not to even look on a married woman with lust. I wonder how well they obey that... Many of them work part time to support their families, and preach at every opportunity. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Many preach full time. But again, you probably think this is silly. It depends on what nonsense they preach. As a group, they give away more Bible and Bible based liturature than any other group in the world. Period. They sell nothing. But again, you probably think that this is silly. If Christ is preached then, like Paul, I rejoice. It ALWAYS starts with the foolishness of preaching. But it doesn't end there. You point out what you consider to be their good works. You think your works are good? Paul could have worked circles around you, and he counted all his good works as crap. Works dont get you into the Kingdom. On our own, we can do nothing.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files If she is not one of the "144,000", then she is wasting her time, right? 7 million JW, 144,000 vacancies, someones getting left out in the cold. But maybe if you WORK REAL HARD you stand a good chance of earning your spot... 4um Traitor Did Jesus Christ serve in the government of his time? When he was offered the kingship of the Jews, did he accept? No. As he stated, my kingdom is not of this world. World standing for the mass of humanity inhabiting the earth. SURELY that will earn them a spot in "heaven". Why would they, or anyone else for that matter, be anxious about a spot in 'heaven'? I ain't going there, and neither is the vast majority of the people of this earth. Works dont get you into the Kingdom. On our own, we can do nothing. And faith without works is dead. By your actions, and not by your words, are ye known.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Why would I, or she, be at all anxious about heaven? The vast majority of people are not going there. We will live, or not live if such is the judgement of Jehovah God, on this earth. Which is what the resurrection is all about.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
So then, Satan is immortal and will torment man forever, right? And the peace that God promised for the earth will never occur. Interesting. Revelation 19:11-21, termed by The New Bible Commentary “The messianic judgment of Armageddon,” opens with a view of the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on a white horse. With his heavenly armies he rides to execute God’s wrath against the nations. (Vss. 11-16) Anticipating the coming slaughter, an angel calls carrion birds to eat the fleshy parts of those who will be slain.—Vss. 17, 18. Then, in the passage that we read above, John saw the actual warfare. Action is first taken against the symbolic wild beast (understood to represent Satan’s earth-wide political system) and the false prophet (standing for the Seventh World Power). (Rev. 13:1, 2) The vision makes it plain that right up till their destruction these two entities will be going concerns, fighting against God. Might they later reemerge, as the symbolic image of the beast did earlier? (Rev. 17:8-11) No chance of that. They are “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” That is where Satan will be destroyed also. The “lake of fire” represents permanent annihilation.—Rev. 19:19, 20; 20:10, 14; 21:8. Here we have the vast majority of His creation being drug down to "hell" to be tortured "forever", Where do you get that nonsense? I thought you were past such 'beliefs.' Satan has been kicking Gods' butt for who knows how many years. Why are you bringing up such nonsense? How has Satan kicked God's butt?! But if they are SO WISE, and we are SO DUMB, why post here? Why cast your "pearls" before us swine? You bring up a good point. I have 10 Bible students, that take up about 20 hours of my time each week. But there are some in the 4um that seem to be able to shed some of the nonsense and listen. Maybe.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
I am going to make this simple. Apparently, you do not process information. You have made unfounded claims about what the Witnesses preach ever since I started, and, despite what I say, continue doing the same things, ignoring facts. That is why I quit bothering to answer your posts. So, here are a couple of facts. If you wish to ignore them, fine, just do not bother to post to me any longer. Jehovah's Witnesses believe and preach; Man does not have an immortal soul. There is no hell of eternal torment. There is no trinty. God the Father is Almighty God, and His name is Jehovah (or Yahweh if you prefer -- Jehovah's Witnesses use Jehovah because it is the most widely known and accepted English version of His Holy Name.) Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is a Mighty God -- but all of his power comes from the Father, who is greater than he is. Jesus Christ existed long before he came to this earth and was given, by his Father, the name Jesus, which means in the original Hebrew, Jehovah is Salvation. Jesus Christ is the only begotton Son of God as he is the only thing directly created by Jehovah. All other creations in the universe were created by Jesus Christ under the direction of his Father, which is why one of the names for Jesus is the Master Worker. The Holy Spirit is Almighty God's active force by which He accomplishes His Purposes. Heaven, where Almighty God dwells, is for spirits, and not for the vast majority of mankind, who will dwell on this earth after the resurrection. I could continue, by why bother? Right?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Did Jesus Christ serve in the government of his time? No, He was a carpenter. Does that mean that since you cannot serve in .gov, you must then be a carpenter? Are all JW carpenters? I understand you have 24 hours to put up a kingdom hall, which is impressive. I dont know if that includes everything or just the shell. Still, that's pretty good. Tell me where it is forbidden to work in .gov When he was offered the kingship of the Jews, did he accept? No. When was He offered "kingship" of the jews? Satan offered Him the worlds kingdoms. Fat chance getting Him to do that. As he stated, my kingdom is not of this world. World standing for the mass of humanity inhabiting the earth. Joh 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. That world IS the mass of humanity. And faith without works is dead. By your actions, and not by your words, are ye known. You are the one that emphasized works, not me. You presented a whole list of works. What does Christ say about works? Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? He's not talking to the atheists there...
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files No, it's just another churchianity doctrine. Like you, I don't believe in "hell", because that word simply does not belong in scripture, not to mention it is directly opposed to Gods' nature. Satan has been kicking Gods' butt for who knows how many years. Why are you bringing up such nonsense? How has Satan kicked God's butt?! It's a numbers game. Satan snatches up all the marbles. Or 99.999% of them. Another churchianity doctrine. They are “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” That is where Satan will be destroyed also. The “lake of fire” represents permanent annihilation.—Rev. 19:19, 20; 20:10, 14; 21:8. No it does not even hint at permanent annihilation.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Actually I agree with you on some things. You list several. Man does not have an immortal soul. There is no hell of eternal torment. There is no trinty. Etc. But everyones ultimate fate, we dont agree on. You seem to think that annihilation is not as bad as "hell". It's a kinder, gentler fate meted out to those that never heard, much less never responded to the gospel. Never mind that God is in control, no one comes to the son unless the Father drags him (John 6:44) and no one knows the Father except the Son show him (Mt 11:27)
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files I have never said that, and I have never seen such printed by the Witnesses. In fact, I have posted for you several times exactly what they say, which is that ALL will be resurrected. THEN, they will be taught in the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ as king, before he hands the kingdom back to Jehovah. When that 1,000 year reign is over, Satan will be turned loose from his imprisonment for a short time, and those who do not hold to what they have learned are the ones to be thrown into the lake of fire, along with Satan. The bottom line is that we are promised perfection; that is neccessary for anyone who is to live forever. Without that perfection, such is not possible. Forever being an impossible number for us to imagine today. And those who will not demonstrate a willingness to submit to Jehovah simply do not have what it takes to live forever, so mercy is also a part of this. Actually I agree with you on some things I understand that; but it is the first time you have admitted it. Have you read this post? Do Not Fall Prey to Modern-Day Judaizers! Interesting discusion at the end. You should take a look.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
I've told you several times I agree with you on some things. When that 1,000 year reign is over, Satan will be turned loose from his imprisonment for a short time, and those who do not hold to what they have learned are the ones to be thrown into the lake of fire, along with Satan. That is where we disagree. It's the definition and purpose of that "lake of fire". Revelation is symbolism. What does fire symbolize throughout scripture? How can God be "all in all" if most of the "all" is destroyed? Whose kindness leads us to repentance? It has nothing to do with our imagined "free will".
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files lol.
This fits you you mudering joo bastard!
Really? You think it's funny? Re 13:1 And I stood (5681) upon the sand of the sea, and saw (5627) a beast rise up (5723) out of the sea, having (5723) seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. So, will this be a "Hydra" sea monster? Is this a Godzilla movie? That's literal, you know...
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Oh I am a murderer. Whatever you say toilet seat licker.
Hey dumb ass. Go back and read it says what all that stuff is. It is not a sea monster. Sheesh you can be stupid sometimes.
You forgot the queer. You are a queer murdering joo bastard.
But that is what it says. IT'S LITERAL. So you think there will be a literal sea monster, and you call me a dumbass? But let me gag and give you the benefit of the doubt. You said this: " Go back and read it says what all that stuff is." So you admit that it's symbolism??? I thought you believe that the symbolism found in that book was "literal"?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Actually, no, you have not. The few statements that you have made in agreement you cancelled when you throw such things at me; and will such things help the JWs go to heaven? & and here we go with the hellfire again! Such comments lead others to think that I speak without knowledge or say two different things at different times and confuses them. It also indicates that you are afraid of being labeled with the JW beliefs. You just did the same thing in another thread (where elliot talded about me posting so much in one day). You said I don't know as much as I think I do, BUT, you absolutely refused to admit you agree with much of what I say. You thus missed your chance to witness to them about the Truth of the Bible by repeating what you agree with me about. Is that consistent with what you think the Bible is about? When you consistently refuse to build a consensus of what we agree on, and move on from there, you force a revisit to countless issues that should be settled, and, you miss the chance to begin to help others to understand, or me or yourself to gain knowledge. I think you are more intelligent than that, BUT, is your ego that big? Or, is it just your fear of being labled like the JWs? I am putting up a post about the Lake of Fire. Just for you.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
I dont care about labels. I've had more than a few "labels" thrown my way, and being called a JW would be one of the kinder less obscene ones. And my ego? I'll leave that for others to judge. Your ego OTOH, you DO seem to think you have all the answers. I have no such illusions about myself. Even Paul said he didn't have all the answers, and I think it's fair to say that NONE of us knows as much or more than Paul did. I am also not going to go back thru old posts to prove I'm right about agreeing with you on some things. You'll just have to take my word for it.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Which version of the Bible does JW® go by ?
4um Traitor They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which they now publish in hundreds of thousands of copies. And, to be sure that there is no doubt, I have about 12 different translations of the Bible, and, I used the King James Study Bible during most of my lessons with Gary, who introduced me to the Witnesses. I consistently checked the New World Translation against that Bible, and, against several others, and it was always consistent with the most common translation. Only, it was MUCH clearer as it was written in modern English. So, I did what I said I would never do, I changed my Bible. I still have all of the others, BUT, I only use them when I need to check something, or, someone asks a question referring to them.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Thanks
4um Traitor Did they take hell out of it. Because if they did there is a warning at the end of revelation that says God will destroy them in a lake of fine. Burning and crying and weeping. Torment never ending. No ice water either.
Back up. You said Revelation was ALL symbolism. I said take the bible literally. When there is a parable there may be a symbol of something mentioned. You will know when that is the case because there is ALWAYS a definition of that symbol. It is not that complicated. So your sea monster comparison is asinine.
Do you sell used cars?
I most certainly do NOT have all of the answers; which is why I study daily. That is why, when I reply, I use the material from the Witnesses disk; I never use my own, of which I have a LOT! Do I think that they have most of the answers? Absolutely. Or I would not call myself a Jehovah's Witness. I have never seen such clear and consise explanations of Scripture, anywhere. Until I met and began to ACTUALLY read the material produced by the Witnesses. I am also not going to go back thru old posts to prove I'm right about agreeing with you on some things. You'll just have to take my word for it. I agreed with you on that, and then pointed out how you cancell it by throwing things you know not to be true at me. And how you refuse to admit in front of others that you agree with me. Again, this comes back to witnessesing to people. That, to me, is what this is all about. You do that, as I said, by building a consensus about what is in agreement, and then going on from there. Until you start doing that, you are going to accomplish nothing except confuse the people who read the threads. Instead of helping others to understand what we agree on, you keep hammering me about settled issues.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
They took many liberties. The doctrine is simply bogus. More man made religion bologna. 2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
4um Traitor They took nothing out of it. They simply explain the meaning of the words used in Scripture and remove the confusion. They also added nothing to it. What they did is remove the confusion. You should think about that. Then think about this; all of the churches that teach hellfire are the same ones that preach the young men in the battle lines for war. Where Catholic kills Catholic and so on. If you believe that is a Bible concept, then continue to believe as you do. Otherwise, perhaps you should think about what you believe, and look at some of the posts I put up with an open mind.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Huh? Parables by their nature are symbolic, not literal. No, I said it was symbolism, not all symbolism. But it is all symbolism. And no, you dont take the Bible literally. If you did, you'd be in prison on murder charges for stoning people, among other things. So, what is the Biblical definition of symbolic fire? How is it used elsewhere in scripture?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files WHAT !? You just wandered way off down into a ditch and into the ravine. IF everyone gets a pass then why did Christ die ?
4um Traitor I tried it once. I _HATED_ it. LOL!
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files ¡HUH? How? Read the paragraph and please tell me where I am wrong. all of the churches that teach hellfire are the same ones that preach the young men in the battle lines for war. Where Catholic kills Catholic True or false? If you believe that is a Bible concept, then continue to believe as you do Simple choice. Otherwise, perhaps you should think about what you believe, and look at some of the posts I put up with an open mind. Possible solution. Where did I go wrong?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Comments (51 - 67) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThey are false prophecies.
#11. To: Hayek Fan (#8)
Coming from a dickweed living in Mexico. Go fuck yourself prick. As bad as our government is, your government is 10x worse.
#12. To: PSUSA (#9)
Perhaps He is playing "catch up" trying desperately to defeat Satan,
#13. To: richard9151 (#12)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#14. To: richard9151 (#10)
#15. To: Rotara (#13)
Good post. Except *I* care enough to steward those resources He has entrusted to me and resist evil, especially from the thief who comes to murder, steal and destroy.
#16. To: PSUSA (#14)
divine inspiration
#17. To: richard9151 (#12)
Why would He have to defeat Satan? He can destroy Satan at any time that He wishes, so, obviously, Satan serves another purpose. That purpose is in teaching us that we can not live without guidance from Almighty God.
#18. To: richard9151 (#16)
How silly. You say that prophets are teachers, then claim that the Witnesses are doing prophecy because they are teachers, when you even post the above!!
#19. To: PSUSA, richard9151 (#17)
All we are trying to do is get through this world and reach our real life.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#20. To: PSUSA (#18)
Expelled? You mean disfellowshipped? Kindly point out to me where scripture forbids serving in .gov in any capacity?
#21. To: Rotara (#19)
If she is not one of the "144,000", then she is wasting her time, right? 7 million JW, 144,000 vacancies, someones getting left out in the cold. But maybe if you WORK REAL HARD you stand a good chance of earning your spot...
#22. To: PSUSA (#17)
Good luck finding that. Satans' purpose is to destroy the flesh.
#23. To: PSUSA, rotara (#17)
Here we have the vast majority of His creation being drug down to "hell" to be tortured "forever",
#24. To: richard9151 (#20)
Kindly point out to me where scripture forbids serving in .gov in any capacity?
#25. To: richard9151 (#22)
So then, Satan is immortal and will torment man forever, right? And the peace that God promised for the earth will never occur. Interesting.
#26. To: richard9151 (#23)
You have made unfounded claims about what the Witnesses preach ever since I started,
#27. To: PSUSA (#26)
gentler fate meted out to those that never heard,
#28. To: richard9151 (#27)
#29. To: PSUSA (#28)
Revelation is symbolism.
#30. To: Old Friend (#29)
Revelation is symbolism. lol.
#31. To: Old Friend (#29)
#32. To: LACUMO (#30)
#33. To: PSUSA (#31)
#34. To: Old Friend (#32)
Oh I am a murderer. Whatever you say toilet seat licker.
#35. To: Old Friend (#33)
#36. To: PSUSA (#28)
I've told you several times I agree with you on some things.
#37. To: richard9151 (#36)
#38. To: richard9151 (#36)
Is that consistent with what you think the Bible is about?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#39. To: Rotara (#38)
Which version of the Bible does JW® go by ?
#40. To: richard9151 (#39)
They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which they now publish in hundreds of thousands of copies.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#41. To: richard9151 (#39)
They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which they now publish in hundreds of thousands of copies.
#42. To: PSUSA (#35)
#43. To: PSUSA (#37)
You'll just have to take my word for it.
#44. To: PSUSA (#37)
Your ego OTOH, you DO seem to think you have all the answers.
#45. To: Old Friend (#41)
Did they take hell out of it.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#46. To: Old Friend (#41)
Did they take hell out of it.
#47. To: Old Friend (#42)
When there is a parable there may be a symbol of something mentioned.
#48. To: richard9151 (#46)
(Edited)
Then think about this; all of the churches that teach hellfire are the same ones that preach the young men in the battle lines for war. Where Catholic kills Catholic and so on. If you believe that is a Bible concept, then continue to believe as you do. Otherwise, perhaps you should think about what you believe, and look at some of the posts I put up with an open mind.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#49. To: Old Friend (#43)
#50. To: Rotara (#48)
You just wandered way off down into a ditch and into the ravine.
.
.
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