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Title: Paying Back Caesar’s Things to Caesar
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Published: Jan 30, 2009
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2009-01-30 14:04:22 by richard9151
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Views: 880
Comments: 67
Paying Back Caesar’s Things to Caesar “Render to all their dues.”—ROMANS 13:7. ACCORDING to Jesus, there are things we owe to God and things we owe to Caesar, or the State. Jesus said: “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” In these few words, he confounded his enemies and neatly summed up the balanced attitude we must have in our relationship with God and in our dealings with the State. No wonder that his listeners “began to marvel at him”!—Mark 12:17. 2 Of course, the first concern of Jehovah’s servants is that they pay back God’s things to God. (Psalm 116:12-14) In doing so, however, they do not forget that Jesus said that they must render certain things to Caesar. Their Bible-trained consciences require that they consider prayerfully to what extent they can pay back what Caesar calls for. (Romans 13:7) In modern times, many jurists have recognized that governmental power has limits and that people and governments everywhere are bound by natural law. 3 The apostle Paul referred to this natural law when he wrote about people of the world: “What may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.” If they will respond to it, natural law will even move the consciences of these unbelievers. Thus, Paul further said: “Whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them.”—Romans 1:19, 20; 2:14, 15. 4 In the 18th century, the renowned English jurist William Blackstone wrote: “This law of nature [natural law], being co-eval with [the same age as] mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this.” Blackstone went on to speak of “revealed law,” as found in the Bible, and he commented: “Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered [allowed] to contradict these.” This is in harmony with what Jesus said about God and Caesar, as recorded at Mark 12:17. Clearly, there are areas where God limits what Caesar can require of a Christian. The Sanhedrin strayed into just such an area when they commanded the apostles to stop preaching about Jesus. Hence, the apostles correctly responded: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”—Acts 5:28, 29. “God’s Things” 5 Especially since 1914, when Jehovah God, the Almighty, began ruling as king through Christ’s Messianic Kingdom, have Christians had to be sure not to give God’s things to Caesar. (Revelation 11:15, 17) As never before, God’s law now calls on Christians to be “no part of the world.” (John 17:16) Being dedicated to God, their Life-Giver, they must demonstrate clearly that they no longer belong to themselves. (Psalm 100:2, 3) As Paul wrote, “we belong to Jehovah.” (Romans 14:8) Moreover, at a Christian’s baptism, he is ordained as a minister of God, so that he can say with Paul: “God . . . has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers.”—2 Corinthians 3:5, 6. 6 The apostle Paul also wrote: “I glorify my ministry.” (Romans 11:13) Surely we should do likewise. Whether we share in the ministry full-time or part-time, we keep in mind that Jehovah himself assigned us to our ministry. (2 Corinthians 2:17) Since some may challenge our position, every dedicated, baptized Christian must be ready to furnish clear and positive proof that he truly is a minister of the good news. (1 Peter 3:15) His ministry should also be evidenced in his conduct. As a minister of God, a Christian should advocate and practice clean morals, uphold family unity, be honest, and show respect for law and order. (Romans 12:17, 18; 1 Thessalonians 5:15) A Christian’s relationship with God and his divinely assigned ministry are the most important things in his life. He cannot give these up at the behest of Caesar. Clearly, they are to be counted among “God’s things.” “Caesar’s Things” 7 Jehovah’s Witnesses know that they owe “subjection to the superior authorities,” the governmental rulers. (Romans 13:1) Hence, when Caesar, the State, makes legitimate demands, their Bible-trained consciences allow them to satisfy these demands. For example, true Christians are among the most exemplary taxpayers on earth. In Germany the newspaper Münchner Merkur said of Jehovah’s Witnesses: “They are the most honest and the most punctual tax payers in the Federal Republic.” In Italy the newspaper La Stampa observed: “They [Jehovah’s Witnesses] are the most loyal citizens anyone could wish for: they do not dodge taxes or seek to evade inconvenient laws for their own profit.” Jehovah’s servants do this ‘on account of their consciences.’—Romans 13:5, 6. 8 Are “Caesar’s things” limited to paying taxes? No. Paul listed other things, such as fear and honor. In his Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book to the Gospel of Matthew, German scholar Heinrich Meyer wrote: “By [Caesar’s things] . . . we are not to understand merely the civil tax, but everything to which Caesar was entitled in virtue of his legitimate rule.” Historian E. W. Barnes, in his work The Rise of Christianity, observed that a Christian would pay taxes if he owed them and “likewise accept all other State obligations, provided he was not called upon to render unto Caesar the things that belonged to God.” 9 What things might the State require without encroaching on the things that rightfully belong to God? Some have felt that they could legitimately give Caesar money in the form of taxes but nothing else. They certainly would not feel comfortable giving Caesar anything that might take up time that could be used for theocratic activities. Nevertheless, while it is true that we should ‘love Jehovah our God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength,’ Jehovah does expect us to spend time in things other than our sacred service. (Mark 12:30; Philippians 3:3) For example, a married Christian is counseled to devote time to pleasing his or her marriage mate. Such activities are not bad, but the apostle Paul states that they are “the things of the world” not “the things of the Lord.”—1 Corinthians 7:32-34; compare 1 Timothy 5:8. 10 Further, Christ authorized his followers to “pay back” taxes, and this certainly involves using time that is dedicated to Jehovah—since our entire lives are dedicated in this way. If the average taxation in a country is 33 percent of income (it is higher in some countries), this means that each year the average worker pays to the State Treasury four months’ worth of his earnings. Put another way, at the end of his working life, the average worker will have spent about 15 years earning the tax money that “Caesar” requires. Consider, too, the matter of schooling. In most countries the law requires that parents have their children attend school for a minimum number of years. The number of years of schooling varies from country to country. In most places it is a substantial length of time. True, such schooling is usually beneficial, but it is Caesar who decides what portion of a child’s life must be spent in this way, and Christian parents comply with Caesar’s decision. Compulsory Military Service 11 Another demand made by Caesar in some countries is compulsory military service. In the 20th century, this arrangement has been instituted by most nations in times of war and by some in times of peace as well. In France this obligation was for many years called blood tax, meaning that every young man had to be willing to lay down his life for the State. Is this something that those dedicated to Jehovah can conscientiously render? How did the first-century Christians view this matter? 12 While the earliest Christians endeavored to be good citizens, their faith prevented them from taking the life of another or from sacrificing their own lives for the State. The Encyclopedia of Religion states: “The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen, affirmed that Christians were constrained from taking human life, a principle that prevented them from participating in the Roman army.” In his book The Early Church and the World, Professor C. J. Cadoux writes: “Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” 13 Why do members of the churches of Christendom not view things this way today? Because of a radical change that took place in the fourth century. The Catholic work A History of the Christian Councils explains: “Many Christians, . . . under the pagan emperors, had religious scruples with regard to military service, and positively refused to take arms, or else deserted. The Synod [of Arles, held in 314 C.E.], in considering the changes introduced by Constantine, set forth the obligation that Christians have to serve in war, . . . because the Church is at peace (in pace) under a prince friendly to Christians.” As a result of this abandonment of Jesus’ teachings, from that time until now, the clergy of Christendom have encouraged their flocks to serve in the armies of the nations, although some individuals have taken a stand as conscientious objectors. 14 Are Christians today obliged to follow the majority in this matter? No. If a dedicated, baptized Christian lives in a country where exemption from military service is granted to ministers of religion, he may avail himself of this provision, for he is in fact a minister. (2 Timothy 4:5) A number of countries, including the United States and Australia, have granted such exemption even in wartime. And during peacetime, in many lands that maintain compulsory military service, Jehovah’s Witnesses, as ministers of religion, are granted exemption. Thus they can continue helping the people by their public service. 15 What, though, if the Christian lives in a land where exemption is not granted to ministers of religion? Then he will have to make a personal decision following his Bible-trained conscience. (Galatians 6:5) While taking the authority of Caesar into account, he will weigh carefully what he owes to Jehovah. (Psalm 36:9; 116:12-14; Acts 17:28) The Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17) Further, he will not forget the Scriptural principles found in texts such as Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 26:52; Romans 12:18; 14:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4; and Hebrews 12:14. Civilian Service 16 However, there are lands where the State, while not allowing exemption for ministers of religion, nevertheless acknowledges that some individuals may object to military service. Many of these lands make provision for such conscientious individuals not to be forced into military service. In some places a required civilian service, such as useful work in the community, is regarded as nonmilitary national service. Could a dedicated Christian undertake such service? Here again, a dedicated, baptized Christian would have to make his own decision on the basis of his Bible-trained conscience. 17 It seems that compulsory service was practiced in Bible times. One history book states: “In addition to the taxes and dues exacted from the inhabitants of Judea, there was also a corvée [unpaid labor exacted by public authorities]. This was an ancient institution in the East, which the Hellenistic and Roman authorities continued to maintain. . . . The New Testament, too, cites examples of corvée in Judea, showing how widespread it was. In accordance with this custom, the soldiers pressed Simon of Cyrene into carrying Jesus’ cross [torture stake] (Matthew 5:41; 27:32; Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26).” 18 Similarly, citizens in some countries today are required by the State or by local authorities to participate in various forms of community service. Sometimes this is for a specific task, such as digging wells or building roads; sometimes it is on a regular basis, such as weekly participation in cleaning up roads, schools, or hospitals. Where such civilian service is for the good of the community and is not connected with false religion or is not in some other way objectionable to the consciences of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they have often complied. (1 Peter 2:13-15) This has usually resulted in an excellent witness and has sometimes silenced those who falsely accuse the Witnesses of being antigovernment.—Compare Matthew 10:18. 19 What, though, if the State requires a Christian for a period of time to perform civilian service that is a part of national service under a civilian administration? Here again, Christians must make their own decision based on an informed conscience. “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.” (Romans 14:10) Christians faced with a requirement of Caesar should prayerfully study the matter and meditate on it. It may also be wise to talk the matter over with mature Christians in the congregation. After this a personal decision must be made.—Proverbs 2:1-5; Philippians 4:5. 20 While engaged in such research, Christians would consider a number of Bible principles. Paul said that we must “be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, . . . be ready for every good work . . . be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men.” (Titus 3:1, 2) At the same time, Christians would do well to examine the proposed civilian work. If they accept it, will they be able to maintain Christian neutrality? (Micah 4:3, 5; John 17:16) Would it involve them with some false religion? (Revelation 18:4, 20, 21) Would performing it prevent or unreasonably limit them from fulfilling their Christian responsibilities? (Matthew 24:14; Hebrews 10:24, 25) On the other hand, would they be able to continue to make spiritual progress, perhaps even sharing in the full-time ministry while performing the required service?—Hebrews 6:11, 12. 21 What if the Christian’s honest answers to such questions lead him to conclude that the national civilian service is a “good work” that he can perform in obedience to the authorities? That is his decision before Jehovah. Appointed elders and others should fully respect the conscience of the brother and continue to regard him as a Christian in good standing. If, however, a Christian feels that he cannot perform this civilian service, his position should also be respected. He too remains in good standing and should receive loving support.—1 Corinthians 10:29; 2 Corinthians 1:24; 1 Peter 3:16. 22 As Christians we will not cease to render “to him who calls for honor, such honor.” (Romans 13:7) We will respect good order and seek to be peaceful, law-abiding citizens. (Psalm 34:14) We may even pray “concerning kings and all those who are in high station” when these men are called upon to make decisions that affect our Christian life and work. As a result of our paying back Caesar’s things to Caesar, we hope that “we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.” (1 Timothy 2:1, 2) Above all, we will continue to preach the good news of the Kingdom as mankind’s only hope, conscientiously paying back God’s things to God.
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#23. To: PSUSA, rotara (#17)
I am going to make this simple. Apparently, you do not process information. You have made unfounded claims about what the Witnesses preach ever since I started, and, despite what I say, continue doing the same things, ignoring facts. That is why I quit bothering to answer your posts. So, here are a couple of facts. If you wish to ignore them, fine, just do not bother to post to me any longer. Jehovah's Witnesses believe and preach; Man does not have an immortal soul. There is no hell of eternal torment. There is no trinty. God the Father is Almighty God, and His name is Jehovah (or Yahweh if you prefer -- Jehovah's Witnesses use Jehovah because it is the most widely known and accepted English version of His Holy Name.) Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is a Mighty God -- but all of his power comes from the Father, who is greater than he is. Jesus Christ existed long before he came to this earth and was given, by his Father, the name Jesus, which means in the original Hebrew, Jehovah is Salvation. Jesus Christ is the only begotton Son of God as he is the only thing directly created by Jehovah. All other creations in the universe were created by Jesus Christ under the direction of his Father, which is why one of the names for Jesus is the Master Worker. The Holy Spirit is Almighty God's active force by which He accomplishes His Purposes. Heaven, where Almighty God dwells, is for spirits, and not for the vast majority of mankind, who will dwell on this earth after the resurrection. I could continue, by why bother? Right?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Did Jesus Christ serve in the government of his time? No, He was a carpenter. Does that mean that since you cannot serve in .gov, you must then be a carpenter? Are all JW carpenters? I understand you have 24 hours to put up a kingdom hall, which is impressive. I dont know if that includes everything or just the shell. Still, that's pretty good. Tell me where it is forbidden to work in .gov When he was offered the kingship of the Jews, did he accept? No. When was He offered "kingship" of the jews? Satan offered Him the worlds kingdoms. Fat chance getting Him to do that. As he stated, my kingdom is not of this world. World standing for the mass of humanity inhabiting the earth. Joh 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. That world IS the mass of humanity. And faith without works is dead. By your actions, and not by your words, are ye known. You are the one that emphasized works, not me. You presented a whole list of works. What does Christ say about works? Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? He's not talking to the atheists there...
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files No, it's just another churchianity doctrine. Like you, I don't believe in "hell", because that word simply does not belong in scripture, not to mention it is directly opposed to Gods' nature. Satan has been kicking Gods' butt for who knows how many years. Why are you bringing up such nonsense? How has Satan kicked God's butt?! It's a numbers game. Satan snatches up all the marbles. Or 99.999% of them. Another churchianity doctrine. They are “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” That is where Satan will be destroyed also. The “lake of fire” represents permanent annihilation.—Rev. 19:19, 20; 20:10, 14; 21:8. No it does not even hint at permanent annihilation.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Actually I agree with you on some things. You list several. Man does not have an immortal soul. There is no hell of eternal torment. There is no trinty. Etc. But everyones ultimate fate, we dont agree on. You seem to think that annihilation is not as bad as "hell". It's a kinder, gentler fate meted out to those that never heard, much less never responded to the gospel. Never mind that God is in control, no one comes to the son unless the Father drags him (John 6:44) and no one knows the Father except the Son show him (Mt 11:27)
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files I have never said that, and I have never seen such printed by the Witnesses. In fact, I have posted for you several times exactly what they say, which is that ALL will be resurrected. THEN, they will be taught in the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ as king, before he hands the kingdom back to Jehovah. When that 1,000 year reign is over, Satan will be turned loose from his imprisonment for a short time, and those who do not hold to what they have learned are the ones to be thrown into the lake of fire, along with Satan. The bottom line is that we are promised perfection; that is neccessary for anyone who is to live forever. Without that perfection, such is not possible. Forever being an impossible number for us to imagine today. And those who will not demonstrate a willingness to submit to Jehovah simply do not have what it takes to live forever, so mercy is also a part of this. Actually I agree with you on some things I understand that; but it is the first time you have admitted it. Have you read this post? Do Not Fall Prey to Modern-Day Judaizers! Interesting discusion at the end. You should take a look.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
I've told you several times I agree with you on some things. When that 1,000 year reign is over, Satan will be turned loose from his imprisonment for a short time, and those who do not hold to what they have learned are the ones to be thrown into the lake of fire, along with Satan. That is where we disagree. It's the definition and purpose of that "lake of fire". Revelation is symbolism. What does fire symbolize throughout scripture? How can God be "all in all" if most of the "all" is destroyed? Whose kindness leads us to repentance? It has nothing to do with our imagined "free will".
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files lol.
This fits you you mudering joo bastard!
Really? You think it's funny? Re 13:1 And I stood (5681) upon the sand of the sea, and saw (5627) a beast rise up (5723) out of the sea, having (5723) seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. So, will this be a "Hydra" sea monster? Is this a Godzilla movie? That's literal, you know...
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Oh I am a murderer. Whatever you say toilet seat licker.
Hey dumb ass. Go back and read it says what all that stuff is. It is not a sea monster. Sheesh you can be stupid sometimes.
You forgot the queer. You are a queer murdering joo bastard.
But that is what it says. IT'S LITERAL. So you think there will be a literal sea monster, and you call me a dumbass? But let me gag and give you the benefit of the doubt. You said this: " Go back and read it says what all that stuff is." So you admit that it's symbolism??? I thought you believe that the symbolism found in that book was "literal"?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Actually, no, you have not. The few statements that you have made in agreement you cancelled when you throw such things at me; and will such things help the JWs go to heaven? & and here we go with the hellfire again! Such comments lead others to think that I speak without knowledge or say two different things at different times and confuses them. It also indicates that you are afraid of being labeled with the JW beliefs. You just did the same thing in another thread (where elliot talded about me posting so much in one day). You said I don't know as much as I think I do, BUT, you absolutely refused to admit you agree with much of what I say. You thus missed your chance to witness to them about the Truth of the Bible by repeating what you agree with me about. Is that consistent with what you think the Bible is about? When you consistently refuse to build a consensus of what we agree on, and move on from there, you force a revisit to countless issues that should be settled, and, you miss the chance to begin to help others to understand, or me or yourself to gain knowledge. I think you are more intelligent than that, BUT, is your ego that big? Or, is it just your fear of being labled like the JWs? I am putting up a post about the Lake of Fire. Just for you.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
I dont care about labels. I've had more than a few "labels" thrown my way, and being called a JW would be one of the kinder less obscene ones. And my ego? I'll leave that for others to judge. Your ego OTOH, you DO seem to think you have all the answers. I have no such illusions about myself. Even Paul said he didn't have all the answers, and I think it's fair to say that NONE of us knows as much or more than Paul did. I am also not going to go back thru old posts to prove I'm right about agreeing with you on some things. You'll just have to take my word for it.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Which version of the Bible does JW® go by ?
4um Traitor They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which they now publish in hundreds of thousands of copies. And, to be sure that there is no doubt, I have about 12 different translations of the Bible, and, I used the King James Study Bible during most of my lessons with Gary, who introduced me to the Witnesses. I consistently checked the New World Translation against that Bible, and, against several others, and it was always consistent with the most common translation. Only, it was MUCH clearer as it was written in modern English. So, I did what I said I would never do, I changed my Bible. I still have all of the others, BUT, I only use them when I need to check something, or, someone asks a question referring to them.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Thanks
4um Traitor Did they take hell out of it. Because if they did there is a warning at the end of revelation that says God will destroy them in a lake of fine. Burning and crying and weeping. Torment never ending. No ice water either.
Back up. You said Revelation was ALL symbolism. I said take the bible literally. When there is a parable there may be a symbol of something mentioned. You will know when that is the case because there is ALWAYS a definition of that symbol. It is not that complicated. So your sea monster comparison is asinine.
Do you sell used cars?
I most certainly do NOT have all of the answers; which is why I study daily. That is why, when I reply, I use the material from the Witnesses disk; I never use my own, of which I have a LOT! Do I think that they have most of the answers? Absolutely. Or I would not call myself a Jehovah's Witness. I have never seen such clear and consise explanations of Scripture, anywhere. Until I met and began to ACTUALLY read the material produced by the Witnesses. I am also not going to go back thru old posts to prove I'm right about agreeing with you on some things. You'll just have to take my word for it. I agreed with you on that, and then pointed out how you cancell it by throwing things you know not to be true at me. And how you refuse to admit in front of others that you agree with me. Again, this comes back to witnessesing to people. That, to me, is what this is all about. You do that, as I said, by building a consensus about what is in agreement, and then going on from there. Until you start doing that, you are going to accomplish nothing except confuse the people who read the threads. Instead of helping others to understand what we agree on, you keep hammering me about settled issues.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
They took many liberties. The doctrine is simply bogus. More man made religion bologna. 2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
4um Traitor They took nothing out of it. They simply explain the meaning of the words used in Scripture and remove the confusion. They also added nothing to it. What they did is remove the confusion. You should think about that. Then think about this; all of the churches that teach hellfire are the same ones that preach the young men in the battle lines for war. Where Catholic kills Catholic and so on. If you believe that is a Bible concept, then continue to believe as you do. Otherwise, perhaps you should think about what you believe, and look at some of the posts I put up with an open mind.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Huh? Parables by their nature are symbolic, not literal. No, I said it was symbolism, not all symbolism. But it is all symbolism. And no, you dont take the Bible literally. If you did, you'd be in prison on murder charges for stoning people, among other things. So, what is the Biblical definition of symbolic fire? How is it used elsewhere in scripture?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files WHAT !? You just wandered way off down into a ditch and into the ravine. IF everyone gets a pass then why did Christ die ?
4um Traitor I tried it once. I _HATED_ it. LOL!
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files ¡HUH? How? Read the paragraph and please tell me where I am wrong. all of the churches that teach hellfire are the same ones that preach the young men in the battle lines for war. Where Catholic kills Catholic True or false? If you believe that is a Bible concept, then continue to believe as you do Simple choice. Otherwise, perhaps you should think about what you believe, and look at some of the posts I put up with an open mind. Possible solution. Where did I go wrong?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
The default 'hell' experience was confusing to you so you found a religion conforming to your brain and potential to experience TRUTH.
4um Traitor Any theories on what the "form of godliness" is?
OK. I am sorry for any confusion I created. That was not my intention. I am not sorry for the things I disagree with, but I always disagree with a reason, not just because you call yourself a JW. You, IMO, are making a big mistake by depending on what others say scripture means. THis is what the entire church does, not just JW. People lost their lives in _most_ unpleasant ways to get the scriptures into the common persons hands, and now people are giving that up to listen AGAIN to what the "experts" say. The experts are WRONG. They are in total apostasy. It amazes me to hear people say these are the "last days", they know all about the apostasy that marks these days, but they don't see the apostasy staring them right in the face.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files I don't know. Feel free to tell me what you think.
Not a theological scholar (others in my family are) here, but I personally wonder if that's not specifically talking about being born again of the Holy Spirit (true internal awakening). ??
4um Traitor Here is something amazing for you. We are in the last days.
Is it true that once you are saved that can't be taken away. That is if you were truly saved. If what I said above is correct how can what you said be correct?
I don't believe the Bible says that.
4um Traitor I don't believe the Bible says that. You may be correct. That is why I said IF. But our names are either in the book of life or they are not. There is also this And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. It seems to me to say that the elect can't be deceived in this situation. I don't think that is definitive but it lends a little credence to the position of not being able to lose salvatoin if you truly have it.
I'll go back in and clarify it for myself and share what I find.
4um Traitor No. You take, IMO, great pride in saying you take scripture literally. Are you now literally saying you don't know what scripture says? You have a Bible? Look it up. You want an easier way to do it? There is Bible software that will help in searching. The best I have found is E-Sword.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Sounds good.
The Righteous Can Die Spiritually There are many death blows to eternal security found in Scripture. At the very core of this non-Christian doctrine is the concept that a person once saved (a righteous person) will not die spiritually over his sin. The clarity of the Scriptures to the contrary is overwhelming from Genesis through Revelation starting with the first time God ever spoke to Adam, which was his only commandment for him to observe and the consequence of disobedience: Adam was righteous and resided in the garden of Eden, a paradise garden only for the righteous. He was expelled from it after he sinned and died, as warned. Adam died spiritually the same day he sinned, yet lived physically many years afterwards to be 930 years old (Gen. 5:5). As God’s first statement about sin was issued to a righteous man concerning his own spiritual death through sin, the devil’s first lie was devised to make Eve dismiss this eternal truth, which led to her disobedience and spiritual death. Please note that Eve never sinned until she was deceived into thinking that sin would not bring about her own spiritual death. Furthermore, the doctrine of eternal security is identical to the devil’s first lie, that is, the righteous will not die spiritually through sin: This same consequence of disobedience for the righteous is repeated later by the prophet Ezekiel: Clearly, a righteous person can die spiritually because of his sin, which again is the antithesis of the teaching of eternal security. New Testament warnings to the righteous about them dying through sin are repeated, especially by Paul and James. The familiarity between these and the Gen. 2:17 and Ezekiel passages is evident: Those Scriptures are written to the saints at Rome, who were righteous: By the way, if the reader would compare Rom. 8:13 to Gal. 5:19-21 and 6:8,9, where Paul wrote the same truth three different ways, it becomes unmistakable that he was referring to the spiritual death of the righteous (not physical death) for those who live according to the sinful nature because he compared you will die in Rom. 8:13 to not inherit the kingdom of God in Gal. 5:19-21 and reap destruction instead of reap eternal life in Gal. 6:8,9. Apparently Paul repeatedly warned Christians of this possibility, unlike our dark day which denies these same eternal truths. Especially focus on Gal. 5:21. James describes the sinning process, which leads to the spiritual death of the righteous: As already shown this sinning process to spiritual death dates back to the Garden of Eden, then to Ezekiel, then to Paul the grace teacher. James elaborated upon this eternal truth at the very end of his own epistle: Notice how straying from the truth (a name for Jesus in John 14:6) is to jeopardize the soul of the righteous person to (eternal) death. But if that same person is brought back where he was before he strayed, his soul will once again be safe (or saved) in the truth. Also shown here is the truth that a saved person can become a sinner again, by straying from the truth. The Lord Himself taught how the righteous can prevent their own spiritual death: Jesus restated the same eternal safeguard for spiritual death in different words when he spoke the following: The word translated “believes” in v. 26 is a continuous tense in the Greek. Jesus declared that the righteous would never die spiritually as long as they maintained this type of belief, which is shown elsewhere as being a trusting, submitting, obeying faith which produces good fruit and holy behavior. In other words, the Lord was saying in John 11 that a righteous person would have to continue to believe so he would not die spiritually, which does not always happen. The Lord taught elsewhere that it is possible for a believer to become an unbeliever, at which point he would fall away as a result: That was the Lord’s own interpretation of the following verse: To save their doctrine, the eternal security teachers (the Scripture distorters) sometimes amazingly argue that the people of Luke 8:13 only had a spurious or false faith, but that is not the text speaking—just their own faulty theology. Not only does Lk. 8:13 say such people did believe for a while, it also states that they receive the word with joy. Real, genuine plant life, likened unto spiritual life, sprung up from the word of God, which was received with joy. The problem is such don’t continue with God because they fail the test of persecution for godly living. To receive the word as in Luke 8:13 is the same description of what happened to Cornelius and his household who experienced true salvation. Just before Peter retold what happened with them we read: Similar to that are two additional Scriptures which refer to others who likewise received the word of God. According to the context, such describes that they got saved after receiving the word of God: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. (Acts 17:11,12, KJV) Please note that the same Greek word translated received in Luke 8:13 is also found in Acts 8:14; 11:1 and 17:11. Luke 8:13 is referring to people who had experienced true salvation, just like these other Scriptures do because such people received the word. Yet the Luke 8:13 passage states they ceased believing. Getting back to John 8:51 and 11:25,26, the Lord shared the same facts as stated there in yet a different Scripture, also from John: Please note the word believes in v. 47 is also a continuous tense in the Greek. Believing in Jesus is compared to eating the bread of life, which will prevent spiritual death, and enable one to live forever. We eat this bread by continuing or maintaining our submissive faith in Jesus, that same truth as shown at John 11:25, 26. When one continues to believe he will keep God’s word, the preventative for the righteous dying spiritually, as stated in John 8:51. At another time, the Lord spoke to those on the very edge of spiritual death in Rev. 3:2: Please note it was the personal responsibility of the ones about to die to strengthen themselves spiritually. God was not going to do it for them, even though it was His will for them to be strengthened. The spiritual negligence and sloth of the righteous can be fatal. The Rev. 3:2 passage is similar to the warning given by the Lord in the preceding chapter to faithful Christians: Certainly, spiritual death is implied since the faithful Christians at Smyrna were warned by Jesus to continue being faithful to the point of physical death (to overcome), so that they would not be hurt at all by the second death. The second death is another name for the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14; 21:8). So what happens to a person with spiritual life (a Christian) who is not faithful to the end of his life? He will die spiritually. This possibility of the righteous dying spiritually is reiterated yet another time by the Lord himself, yet ends joyfully because he repents and returns to salvation: Please note that the prodigal was spiritually dead and spiritually lost at the same point in time, that is when he was in sexual immorality and wild living. After he repented he became alive again. Those words are very important. It says again. That means he had spiritual life before he left the Father to indulge in wild living and sexual immorality. He got that same spiritual life back again when he repented and returned to serve the Father. In other words, he was righteous yet died spiritually through sin (became lost) and later became spiritually alive again when he turned from his wickedness to serve God. (This is Jesus’ teaching not some cultist or so-called works salvation person.) Hence, as Jesus taught elsewhere that one passes from spiritual death to spiritual life at the point of getting born again, He also taught the same person can pass back from spiritual life to spiritual death through sin, as happened to the prodigal. This same truth about spiritual death for the righteous is echoed by the Apostle John in his first epistle: John wrote about the spiritual death of the righteous here. He stated that sin would bring that about as happened to Adam, as well as the prodigal. Another definite example of a righteous man dying, but not physically, was King David when he turned to do evil. Ezekiel warned such a righteous person will die, yet David continued to live physically as did Adam and the prodigal. These facts, of course, are all opposed by the eternal security teachers who want us to believe the devil’s teaching, as stated in Gen. 3:4. They agree with the devil and try to confuse the issue by saying the death of 1 John 5:16 is physical death, with Ananias and Sapphira being examples. In other words, they believe God in his wrath over their sin of lying to the Holy Spirit struck them dead in their unrepentant wickedness and rewarded them by taking them quicker into His paradise kingdom, which is reserved only for the holy and pure of heart. By teaching like this the eternal security teachers not only proclaim a license for immorality, but also contradict yet another Scripture, which shows that all liars will go to the lake of fire: Last but not least, let’s not forget the widows of 1 Tim. 5:6, which Paul wrote of: Green renders 1 Tim. 5:6, as follows: Dear reader, don’t be deceived by those parroting the devil’s first lie to our generation, the eternal security teachers. The Bible is clear that the righteous will die spiritually, if they turn to do evil, as Adam, King David, the prodigal and the widows of 1 Tim. 5:6 did, which is also the clear teaching of Ezekiel. If you are a real Christian, you must faithfully follow Jesus and endure persecution for living godly to the end of your life to enter God’s kingdom. Don’t be deceived by the false teachers who want to convince you otherwise.
4um Traitor
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestHere we have the vast majority of His creation being drug down to "hell" to be tortured "forever",
#24. To: richard9151 (#20)
Kindly point out to me where scripture forbids serving in .gov in any capacity?
#25. To: richard9151 (#22)
So then, Satan is immortal and will torment man forever, right? And the peace that God promised for the earth will never occur. Interesting.
#26. To: richard9151 (#23)
You have made unfounded claims about what the Witnesses preach ever since I started,
#27. To: PSUSA (#26)
gentler fate meted out to those that never heard,
#28. To: richard9151 (#27)
#29. To: PSUSA (#28)
Revelation is symbolism.
#30. To: Old Friend (#29)
Revelation is symbolism. lol.
#31. To: Old Friend (#29)
#32. To: LACUMO (#30)
#33. To: PSUSA (#31)
#34. To: Old Friend (#32)
Oh I am a murderer. Whatever you say toilet seat licker.
#35. To: Old Friend (#33)
#36. To: PSUSA (#28)
I've told you several times I agree with you on some things.
#37. To: richard9151 (#36)
#38. To: richard9151 (#36)
Is that consistent with what you think the Bible is about?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#39. To: Rotara (#38)
Which version of the Bible does JW® go by ?
#40. To: richard9151 (#39)
They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which they now publish in hundreds of thousands of copies.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#41. To: richard9151 (#39)
They use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which they now publish in hundreds of thousands of copies.
#42. To: PSUSA (#35)
#43. To: PSUSA (#37)
You'll just have to take my word for it.
#44. To: PSUSA (#37)
Your ego OTOH, you DO seem to think you have all the answers.
#45. To: Old Friend (#41)
Did they take hell out of it.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#46. To: Old Friend (#41)
Did they take hell out of it.
#47. To: Old Friend (#42)
When there is a parable there may be a symbol of something mentioned.
#48. To: richard9151 (#46)
(Edited)
Then think about this; all of the churches that teach hellfire are the same ones that preach the young men in the battle lines for war. Where Catholic kills Catholic and so on. If you believe that is a Bible concept, then continue to believe as you do. Otherwise, perhaps you should think about what you believe, and look at some of the posts I put up with an open mind.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#49. To: Old Friend (#43)
#50. To: Rotara (#48)
You just wandered way off down into a ditch and into the ravine.
#51. To: richard9151 (#50)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#52. To: Rotara (#45)
Having a form of godliness,
#53. To: richard9151 (#44)
I most certainly do NOT have all of the answers; which is why I study daily. That is why, when I reply, I use the material from the Witnesses disk; I never use my own, of which I have a LOT!
#54. To: PSUSA (#47)
So, what is the Biblical definition of symbolic fire? How is it used elsewhere in scripture?
#55. To: Old Friend (#52)
Any theories on what the "form of godliness" is?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#56. To: PSUSA (#53)
It amazes me to hear people say these are the "last days",
#57. To: Rotara (#55)
Not a theological scholar (others in my family are) here, but I personally wonder if that's not specifically talking about being born again of the Holy Spirit (true internal awakening). ??
#58. To: Old Friend (#57)
Is it true that once you are saved that can't be taken away.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#59. To: Rotara (#58)
Is it true that once you are saved that can't be taken away.
#60. To: Old Friend (#59)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#61. To: Old Friend (#54)
I don't know. Feel free to tell me what you think.
#62. To: Rotara (#60)
I'll go back in and clarify it for myself and share what I find.
#63. To: Old Friend (#60)
And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (Gen 2:16,17)
“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)
Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:18)
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)
To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. (Rom. 1:7,8)
but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, NASB)
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. (John 8:51)
Clearly, the Lord was not talking about physical death, since many righteous people remained faithful to the very end, such as the Apostle Paul did, yet died physically. Again, since Paul died physically, Jesus couldn’t have been referring to physical death. Hence, the Lord gave the preventative to spiritual death as being simply to keep his word or continue to obey to the end. Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25,26)
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)
Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. (Luke 8:6)
The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. (Acts 11:1)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (Acts 8:12-14, KJV)
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:47-51)
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Rev 2:10,11)
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate. (Luke 15:24)
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. (Luke 15:32)
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. (1 John 5:16)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Rev 21:8)
For some reason the eternal security teachers seem oblivious to Scriptures which show that God does sometimes strike the wicked (or unsaved) physically dead for their sin: But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the LORD put him to death. (Gen 38:7)
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
Immediately afterwards, he refers to some widows that turned from their dedication to Christ (v. 11) to follow Satan (v. 15). Notice: those widows Paul knew didn’t die physically, yet were dead (spiritually) because of their sins. This passage doesn’t refer to those never saved, as we may assume could be the case in Lk. 9:60 and Mt. 8:22, but instead to those who were once alive spiritually like the prodigal, because they previously had a dedication to Christ and later turned away from it. But she who lives in self-pleasure has died while living.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
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