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Title: Sarah Palin Champions Barbaric Aerial Hunting of Wolves
Source:
YouTube
URL Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGPFPBmzRrQ
Published: Sep 3, 2008
Author: defendersactionfund
Post Date: 2009-02-03 17:56:11 by FormerLurker
Keywords: Barbaric, Animal slaughter, Compassionate Conservatism, Sarah Palin
Views: 9239
Comments: 460
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#190. To: X-15 (#188)
Horses have INCISORS, are you saying they are meat eaters?
But anyways, Carbon dating is only reliable if you think the rate of decay is a constant. If it isn't a constant then carbon dating may only work reliably for a few hundred years at best. There is evidence the Carbon-14 decay rate is not a constant. I just happened to respond to Old Friend poking fun at another, calling them "flat earther" for having a different persepective re: man's time on this earth. I had just read the article re: the axes prior to checkin out 4um. Hence, I thought I would share that millions of years of humans is not so far fetched in the realms of archeology and science. Nobody mentioned carbon dating of the axes, but rather rock dating. The margin of error on this particular dating was give or take 610K years, not a few hundred years.
Horses have INCISORS, are you saying they are meat eaters? I can open a beer bottle with my teeth.
True macro evolution belief is only for die-hard believers who have gone over the edge of reality into the abyss of insanity. Do you think the Earth is the center of the Universe? Apparently you do, as you believe that all that exists revolves around you and your world. How small can you think? Creation is an ongoing process, and we can see billions of stars in this galaxy alone, each of which is a sun (in case you didn't know what a star was). Each of those stars (or suns) may well have their own planetary system, and at least a few of those planets amongst those distant solar systems could have intelligent life on them. Have you never imagined anything other than what you've been told, or beyond what you were taught to think? If it's not dictated to you by a preacher, must it be a lie or impossible? You are apparently the sort of person who clings to junk science and superstition, while at the same time throwing stones at those who speak of true science. Were you at the bottom of your class in grade school? Did you ever finish high school? You are irrational and akin to those who believed the world was supported by elephants traveling around in circles.
Hmmm. I wonder what sort of scientific name that would be, brewavore?
Monkeys don't eat meat, do they?
Huh? Is that what you and others believe, that evolution is about coyotes evolving into cows? Try looking at bird skeletons and then looking at dinosaur skeletons, they are virtually identical. That is what is meant by evolution. Same goes for dogs from wolves, elephants from wooly mammouths, etc.
To hell with horses, here's a fur coat made with tanned coyote hides: _________________________________________________________________________ Most are true herbivores, and some are opportunistic omnivores. In other words, most only eat plants and nuts, but some eat bugs, snails, etc. when or if they can find them.
Ever hear of Karma?
For most that has already happened.
God is always good!
Karma: there's a coyote out there that I'm going to kill soon. Hopefully it's hide will be all furred-up and not have any mange. Here's a representative example from my happy hunting grounds: _________________________________________________________________________ Wouldn't it be worse for someone to premeditatedly kill their own child with time to think about it. Yes it would be worse. Off topic but... Israel planned its bombardment and slaughter of Palestinians which can be seen by the fact that for 3 months prior to their attack there had been virtually no rocket attacks on Israel by anyone. .
God is always good!
You will receive that which you give, and reap what you sow.
You really do believe that crap. UNBELIEVABLE!
God is always good!
BTW, do you go into your neighbor's yards at night and poison their dogs? That picture you posted sure looks like a dead dog (German Shepard).
You really believe this single little chunk of matter is the center of the Universe. Before I had access to the Internet I thought people such as you existed in the Middle Ages, but not in the 20th century (and of course the 21st century nowadays). I thought only retards and jungle dwellers were as uneducated and totally clueless on such things. I've seen many things since I first logged onto the net, but that sort of ignorance still shocks me to this day.
Man is not the only great ape that is an omnivore and I'm not even going to bother posting science to back it up because you never look at it anyway.
There are a multitude of scientific sources that indicate man was not originally an omnivore, but has all of the physiological traits of a herbivore. I don't care what accusations you make, you're wrong.
You googled an artlcle that you thought would make your point and expect me to take it as a fact when you can't e LOL!! So sayeth you. Let me get this straight........I take it on faith while you hold your Bible up to answer all scientific inquiries. Touche on the 'use your head' tip. So, you think the Dinos were cruising around in the Garden of Eden? Must of been cramped in there. I understand that humans have a feeble concept of linear time to help them survive. Without that, our feeble little brains might snap.....but God has no such problems to contend with. Yes, there are scientific methods to date objects, artifacts, stars, galaxies. All sorts of pertinent issues that were mysteriously omitted from the Bible. According to your line of thinking the sun is still revolving around the earth since mere mathematical formulas proved this erroneous line of thinking. Sheesh, it amazes me that this notion of dating in context to the Bible continues in this day and age. It's comical. How many scientists have been deemed heretics for simply stating the truth......truth that conflicts with linear and literal interpretations of the Bible? Actually, I have the humility and faith to not put God in the same linear box that humans exit in. What is a week to God, Old Friend? What is a day? What is a moment? An eternity? Please check your Bible and get back to me. I'm not asking about human perceptions here.
Monkeys don't eat meat, do they? Most are true herbivores, and some are opportunistic omnivores. In other words, most only eat plants and nuts, but some eat bugs, snails, etc. when or if they can find them. Fruitarian Evolution: Science Fact or Science Fiction? In contrast to the extensive fossil record evidence of meat in the evolutionary diet, there is virtually no credible scientific evidence of a strict fruitarian or veg*n diet by our prehistoric human (and australopithecine) ancestors. Much much more at the link.
Actually, I have the humility and faith to not put God in the same linear box that humans exit in. What is a week to God, Old Friend? What is a day? What is a moment? An eternity? Please check your Bible and get back to me. I'm not asking about human perceptions here. Sadly, Old Friend is not alone in his misguided beliefs. If people like that were basically non-violent, it wouldn't be as troublesome of a thought...
You quote a blog site (an anti-vegan site at that) as your "scientific proof"? Find me a university that states what you believe, then perhaps I'll concede. Till then... I could list hundreds of pro-vegan sites that state the opposite of what you posted. I can also post SCIENTIFIC sources.
That's not what I was commenting on and you know it. You said "creation is an ongoing process", that is what I find so unbelievable. What is it that you think has been created lately without man doing it? Even then man is only using the resources already in existence, no new matter is being created by man. To believe in macro evolution one must believe that in enough time that the computers of today, which are much less complex than humans, could come into existence without anyone ever making them and programs for them that can do meaningful things such as edit an image could happen by pure chance without anyone actually making them. Sorry, but that kind of faith is WAY beyond my level of faith in anything, including God.
God is always good!
Oooo big assumption. You didn't read the site did you. Knew you wouldn't.
Oh and BTW, that link you posted does NOT dispute any of the physiological evidence that I mentioned, it simply beats down straw men.
It's obvious that YOU didn't, or if you did, you thought it said something that it doesn't.
New stars, planets, and life on those worlds. In fact, the very fact that life is constantly recreating itself here on THIS planet each second of each day IS Creation in Progress.
How about a pro-vegetarian site that makes the claim that humans are omnivores? Humans are Omnivores Confusion between Taxonomy and Diet Members of the mammalian Order Carnivora may or may not be exclusive meat eaters. Those which eat only meat are carnivores. Dietary adaptations are not limited by a simple dichotomy between herbivores (strict vegetarians) and carnivores (strict meat-eaters), but include frugivores (predominantly fruit), gramnivores (nuts, seeds, etc.), folivores (leaves), insectivores (carnivore- insects and small vertebrates), etc. Is is also important to remember that the relation between the form (anatomy/physiology) and function (behavior) is not always one to one. Individual anatomical structures can serve one or more functions and similar functions can be served by several forms. Omnivorism The Great Apes Gorillas are more typically vegetarian, with less emphasis on fruit. Several years ago a very elegant study was done on the relationship between body size and diet in primates (and some other mammal groups). The only primates on the list with pure diets were the very small species (which are entirely insectivorous) and the largest (which specialize in vegetarian diet). However, the spectrum of dietary preferences reflect the daily food intake needs of each body size and the relative availability of food resources in a tropical forest. Our closest relatives among the apes are the chimpanzees (i.e., anatomically, behaviorally, genetically, and evolutionarily), who frequently kill and eat other mammals (including other primates). Again more at the link.
BTW, I never said that God did not create all that exists, I simply said it did not happen the way ancient desert dwellers described it. Can't you see that Nature IS the process of Creation? Can't you understand that evolution is but a tiny piece of that Creation, and that Creation itself goes well beyond that?
LOL!! The correct amount of thinning at the correct time prevents this. It's called game management, a centuries old technique that was diligently practiced by many older civilizations as if their very lives depended on getting it right.
In fact, the very fact that life is constantly recreating itself here on THIS planet each second of each day IS Creation in Progress. I'm sorry to hear of your delusional state. Hope you get help.
God is always good!
This article was shamelessly published in the May/June 1991 edition of the Vegetarian Journal JM> There are a number of popular myths about vegetarianism that have no scientific basis in fact. JM> One of these myths is that man is naturally a vegetarian because our bodies resemble plant eaters, not carnivores. In fact we are omnivores, capable of either eating meat or plant foods. The following addresses the unscientific theory of man being only a plant eater. JM> Much of the misinformation on the issue of man's being a natural vegetarian arises from confusion between taxonomic (in biology, the procedure of classifying organisms in established categories) and dietary characteristics. JM> Members of the mammalian Order Carnivora may or may not be exclusive meat eaters. Those which eat only meat are carnivores. JM> Dietary adaptations are not limited by a simple dichotomy between herbivores (strict vegetarians) and carnivores (strict meat- eaters), but include frugivores (predominantly fruit), gramnivores (nuts, seeds, etc.), folivores (leaves), insectivores (carnivore-insects and small vertebrates), etc. Is is also important to remember that the relation between the form (anatomy/physiology) and function (behavior) is not always one to one. Individual anatomical structures can serve one or more functions and similar functions can be served by several forms. JM> The key category in the discussion of human diet is omnivores, which are defined as generalized feeders, with neither carnivore nor herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food, and who are capable of consuming and do consume both animal protein and vegetation. They are basically *opportunistic* feeders (survive by eating what is available) with more generalized anatomical and physiological traits, especially the dentition (teeth). JM> All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is omnivorous and would include meat. We are not, however, required to consume animal protein. We have a choice. JM> There are very few frugivores amongst the mammals in general, and primates in particular. JM> The only apes that are predominantly fruit eaters (gibbons and siamangs) are atypical for apes in many behavioral and ecological respects and eat substantial amounts of vegetation. JM> Our closest relatives among the apes are the chimpanzees (i.e., anatomically, behaviorally, genetically, and evolutionarily), who frequently kill and eat other mammals (including other primates). JM> Once domestication of food sources began, it included both animals and plants. JM> In archeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken for those of human teeth when found in archeological excavations. JM> There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. JM> For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat- free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns. This article was originally published in the May/June 1991 edition of the Vegetarian Journal, published by: You really should face the mirror when you speak those words.
Let's put it this way. I would not believe in God before I would buy the story of macro evolution. If believing in God required believing in macro evolution then I would be an atheist.
God is always good!
BTW, do you not see the gestation of a baby, be it human, dog, or sheep, and the birth of that baby as the creation of new life? Do you not see the seed of a plant growing into a new plant itself as the work of creation? Or do you think the stork delivers those babies straight from heaven, and the farmers buy their crops at the supermarket?
Oh, and why is that?
Sure it did. Interaction of evolutionary selection pressures on the human oral system (flowchart) Overview of gut (digestive system) morphology in primates and humans Quantitative analysis of gut morphology in primates and humans On the term "omnivore," and misuse of quotes Here is the main link. A lot to read there.
In a brief glimse, it's highly apparent the author cherry picks his "sources" and does not quote much of anything, but takes an image here and there that doesn't prove a thing and writes a paragraph or two with no real proof of what he's claiming.
Genesis says God created all things in six days and then he rested on the seventh. He didn't need evolution to do that. If macro evolution were ever proven to be true, then I could longer believe in God. Macro evolution can't be proved though, of that I am sure.
God is always good!
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWe have INCISORS for MEAT
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#191. To: RickyJ (#59)
Totally off topic dude.
#192. To: FormerLurker, X-15, all (#190)
We have INCISORS for MEAT
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#193. To: RickyJ (#187)
(Edited)
Do you REALLY believe that?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#194. To: wudidiz (#192)
I can open a beer bottle with my teeth.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#195. To: FormerLurker (#194)
Hmmm. I wonder what sort of scientific name that would be, brewavore?
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#196. To: X-15 (#188)
coyotes have been known to get into watermelons but that doesn't mean they're evolving into cows.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#197. To: FormerLurker (#190)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#198. To: wudidiz (#195)
Monkeys don't eat meat, do they?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#199. To: X-15 (#197)
To hell with horses, here's a fur coat made with tanned coyote hides:
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#200. To: Rotara (#116)
When we get crossover into outright worship of the Creation (versus the Creator), please ping me. ;-)
#201. To: FormerLurker (#199)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#202. To: Old Friend (#121)
What about if a confused and misguided guy goes in a liquor store and kills someone in a moment of bad judgement.
#203. To: X-15 (#201)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#204. To: FormerLurker (#193)
Creation is an ongoing process...
#205. To: X-15 (#201)
Here's a representative example from my happy hunting grounds:
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#206. To: RickyJ (#204)
(Edited)
You really do believe that crap.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#207. To: FormerLurker (#189)
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#208. To: farmfriend (#207)
Man is not the only great ape that is an omnivore
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#209. To: Old Friend (#51)
My statement stands. You don't even know how they came up with these numbers. You take it on faith. Faith in man. Use your head. There can be no scientific method to determine the age of something allegedly a million years old. They weren't there and there is NO WAY IN HELL to scientifically prove any of these supposed ages in millions of years.
#210. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz (#198)
Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of the Homo genus. Humans appeared with the advent of a brand-new genus (Homo) ~2.5 million years ago. Humans evolved on the savanna-- a very different environment from the forest home of the great apes. From the very inception of our genus, humans have been eating animal foods. There is overwhelming scientific evidence to support this point. (Some of the evidence is discussed in this and the preceding section; also see Part 1 of the Paleolithic Diet vs. Vegetarianism interview series, available on this site, for additional information and citations.) The diet of some vague prehistoric frugivore that may or may not be an ancestor is irrelevant in light of the status of humans as a new genus with a different diet (i.e., eating more animal foods) and evolving in a different environmental niche.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#211. To: abraxas, Old Friend (#209)
Sheesh, it amazes me that this notion of dating in context to the Bible continues in this day and age. It's comical. How many scientists have been deemed heretics for simply stating the truth......truth that conflicts with linear and literal interpretations of the Bible?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#212. To: farmfriend (#210)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#213. To: FormerLurker (#206)
You really believe this single little chunk of matter is the center of the Universe.
#214. To: FormerLurker (#212)
You quote a blog site (an anti-vegan site at that) as your "scientific proof"?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#215. To: farmfriend (#210)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#216. To: farmfriend (#214)
You didn't read the site did you. Knew you wouldn't.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#217. To: RickyJ (#213)
You said "creation is an ongoing process", that is what I find so unbelievable. What is it that you think has been created lately without man doing it?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#218. To: FormerLurker (#215)
Adapted from a talk by John McArdle, Ph.D. Introduction
There are a number of popular myths about vegetarianism that have no scientific basis in fact. One of these myths is that man is naturally a vegetarian because our bodies resemble plant eaters, not carnivores. In fact we are omnivores, capable of either eating meat or plant foods. The following addresses the unscientific theory of man being only a plant eater.
Much of the misinformation on the issue of man's being a natural vegetarian arises from confusion between taxonomic (in biology, the procedure of classifying organisms in established categories) and dietary characteristics.
The key category in the discussion of human diet is omnivores, which are defined as generalized feeders, with neither carnivore nor herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food, and who are capable of consuming and do consume both animal protein and vegetation. They are basically *opportunistic* feeders (survive by eating what is available) with more generalized anatomical and physiological traits, especially the dentition (teeth). All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is omnivorous and would include meat. We are not, however, required to consume animal protein. We have a choice.
There are very few frugivores amongst the mammals in general, and primates in particular. The only apes that are predominantly fruit eaters (gibbons and siamangs) are atypical for apes in many behavioral and ecological respects and eat substantial amounts of vegetation. Orangutans are similar, with no observations in the wild of eating meat.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#219. To: RickyJ (#213)
To believe in macro evolution one must believe that in enough time that the computers of today, which are much less complex than humans, could come into existence without anyone ever making them and programs for them that can do meaningful things such as edit an image could happen by pure chance without anyone actually making them.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#220. To: FormerLurker (#163)
Hence leading to an over population of other animals, leading to death by starvation as THEIR food supplies dwindle.
#221. To: FormerLurker (#217)
New stars, planets, and life on those worlds.
#222. To: farmfriend (#218)
Humans are Omnivores
Adapted from a talk by John McArdle, Ph.D. A rational critique of:
Humans are Omnivores
Adapted from a talk by vivisectionist John McArdle, Ph.D.Introduction
And, unfortunately, there are many more annoyingly-popular pseudo-scientific myths, masquerading as science, that humans are "omnivores"; those in this article will be refuted.
We will find that JM consistently fails to support his thesis with real science by erroneously substituting cultural practices for scientific facts and conclusions, the most common and fatal error of those falsely claiming than humans are "omnivores". Confusion between Taxonomy and Diet
Right, these 'classifications' are Linnaean nomenclature which is archaic, out-of-date, and based on insignificant, fragmentary fossilized data alleging to track the human lineage, which should be completely overhauled in light of modern genetic research. JM, a claimed "anatomist and primatologist" at the PhD level, should be aware of this critical fact, and the profound differences between Nature and culture, but we will see that he is not, much to his own embarrassment.
This is the crux of the matter: "you will see that taxonomy is more of an art than a science", "that there isn't even solid agreement on which species belong in which orders", "A little confusion is probably a good thing to learn to accept when it comes to classifying animals."
So, we see that this non-science and confusion dominate JM's faulty presentation, and it is a primary cause for his false conclusion that "Humans are Omnivores". In fact, search as you will, there is no taxonomical classification as "omnivore".
A little truth has leaked out. These 'classifications' are mere conveniences, not strictly defined in a reasonable, rigorous, scientific manner.Omnivorism
Notice, there is NO useful, meaningful, or even vaguely-scientific anatomical/physiological/biochemical definition of "omnivore", and JM foolishly ignores the inescapable fact that humans are totally incapable of killing, tearing asunder, and consuming raw their prey with their natural, biological equipment, as ALL natural omnivores do! In fact, I have challenged people who adamantly claim that they are "omnivores" for over 35 years to prove they are natural "omnivores" by simply killing and eating raw a small animal with their natural equipment, and none has ever done so to actually test their irrational belief. Not one!
JM has made the all-to-common and fatal error in his totally unscientific and unsupportable claims by confusing Nature and culture; a grievous error which most grade school children would not make. Humans are clearly not natural "omnivores". Some are cultural "omnivores", and indeed must rely on cultural artifacts to raise, kill, butcher, cook, disguise with seasonings, cut up, and finally consume their animal prey. Again, the false definition rests on the phrase "capable of consuming"; however, humans have no natural capability to do so. If they did, they would. Thus, relying on an absurd false definition, JM inevitably and inescapably comes to a false conclusion.
Another insight into the falsity of this concept rests in the mistaken confusion, and proposed false-identity, of the verbs: to be, and to do. Being refers to our genetic code and its consequences, while doing is totally unrelated and a consequence of cultural programming.
Let's examine JM's muddled "thinking" a bit to see how completely absurd, and perhaps intentionally- misleading, the "capable" definition really is.
Humans are "capable" of flying through the air; that makes us birds or flying insects, right?
Humans are "capable" of traveling under water; that makes us fish or sea worms, right?
Humans are "capable" of tunneling through the earth; that makes us earthworms or moles, right?
Another unintentional admission that we are not natural omnivores; we have a choice; animals, however, do not have any choices, they rely on their genetically-programmed instincts to kill and eat animal prey. Humans have no instincts to do so, in spite of the foolish claims of various Instincto cults. Choices are cultural, not instinctual. How can someone with even a trivial education not understand the profound difference between culture and Nature?The Great Apes
Totally irrelevant, we are apes, not "mammals in general" nor random primates. Actually, we are Pongidae, only the horrendous human ego has chosen to elevate ourselves to another, exclusively ours, thus false classification. With a genetic difference of a mere ~1.6% from the chimp, our closest genetic relative, it should be obvious that our diet should be essentially that of the chimp. Clearly, the genetic distances from various, scientifically- indefinable natural "omnivores" would be much more, thus, again, refuting JM's unsupportable claim of "humans are omnivores".
Whoops - chimps are frugivorous, eating mostly fruit when available, and falling back on leaves when sufficient fruit is not, and JM is claimed to be a primatologist.
"Frequently" turns out to be a self-serving distortion, apparently for the sake of his pre-conceived and false conclusion, and for a "primatologist", it must be intentional. Chimp hunting and flesh-eating is rare, ~1.4% of their diet, not practiced among all adults, as would be required by a true nutritional need, and is clearly cultural, since flesh is used to gain sexual favors --humorously-similar to human dating.
Evidence of Humans as Omnivores
Archeological Record
JM> As far back as it can be traced, clearly the archeological record indicates an omnivorous diet for humans that included meat. Our ancestry is among the hunter/gatherers from the beginning.
More muddled "thinking". The "archeological record" so referenced is purely self- selecting, thus misleading, since that "evidence" is only produced by cultural processes, which include tool- marked bones and evidence of fire. The true frugivorous, natural, non- tool-using, human would leave NO evidence at all, since all food wastes would be composted into oblivion. Tools produce enduring evidence, raw-food eating humans do not; however, that certainly does not mean they did not exist. They exist today, and produce no long-term "archeological evidence" of their diet in the local ecosystems.
Whoops -- once culture is in play, its effects can not be used to assess the natural human. Anthro-apologists like to ignore this critical fact, thus reducing their verbal output to mere exercises in creative writing, certainly not real science.
JM> Cell Types
Relative number and distribution of cell types, as well as structural specializations, are more important than overall length of the intestine to determining a typical diet. Dogs are typical carnivores, but their intestinal characteristics have more in common with omnivores. Wolves eat quite a lot of plant material.
Totally irrelevant to humans. But, mindless insertion of irrelevancies that sound correct is a common ploy of anthro-apologists in order to created the illusion of scientific credibility.
JM> Fermenting Vats
Nearly all plant eaters have fermenting vats (enlarged chambers where foods sits and microbes attack it). Ruminants like cattle and deer have forward sacs
derived from remodeled esophagus and stomach. Horses, rhinos, and colobine monkeys have posterior, hindgut sacs. Humans have no such specializations.
Again, factual but totally irrelevant to humans, or the "omnivore" issue; this applies to herbivores, not frugivorous humans.
JM> Jaws
Although evidence on the structure and function of human hands and jaws, behavior, and evolutionary history also either support an omnivorous diet or
fail to support strict vegetarianism, the best evidence comes from our teeth. The short canines in humans are a functional consequence of the enlarged cranium
and associated reduction of the size of the jaws. In primates, canines function as both defense weapons and visual threat devices. Interestingly, the primates
with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets.
Love that self- contradiction.
Yes, archaeology is confused and mistaken.
JM> Salivary Glands
These indicate we could be omnivores. Saliva and urine data vary, depending on diet, not taxonomic group.
"Could"? Where is the evidence? Without evidence, "could" and "could not" are identical.
JM> Intestines
Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. We are intermediate between the two groups.
More irrelevancies and errors to obfuscate the issue. The surface area of a cylinder IS linearly proportional to the length. We are "intermediate" between a carnivore and another carnivore, so what does that mean?
Conclusion (false)
JM> Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits.
This is a blatant lie. JM has presented no anatomical definition, or even an attempt to generate a rigorous, testable, anatomical definition of "omnivore"; this is not possible, since the anatomies of various natural omnivores is so diverse that no coherent patterns can be found.
The "vegetarian diet" is generally cooked, is centered on grains and beans, and may include dairy and eggs; this was not a discussion of a "vegetarian diet". Another irrelevant dodge and intentional obfuscation.
The "ethical" argument is totally bogus, since there is no objective set of ethics to which one can compare to determine what is more, or less, "ethical" than what. That is, individuals just make up their own ethical standards to suit their purposes of the moment. Hitler did what he did, based on his own personal set of ethics; so does JM.
[Dr. McArdle is a vegetarian and currently Scientific Advisor to The American Anti-Vivisection Society. He is an anatomist and a primatologist.]
Clearly unqualified and hopelessly-confused on very fundamental facts and real science. And he has a PhD; that's frightening. Worse, look at some more of his hysterically-emotional nonsense.
The Vegetarian Resource Group, P.O. Box 1463, Dept. IN Baltimore, MD 21203 (410) 366-VEGE
Sad, really sad. And these people are supposed to be "vegetarian" authorities?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#223. To: RickyJ (#221)
I'm sorry to hear of your delusional state. Hope you get help.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#224. To: FormerLurker (#219)
Can't you understand that evolution is but a tiny piece of that Creation, and that Creation itself goes well beyond that?
#225. To: RickyJ (#221)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#226. To: RickyJ (#224)
If believing in God required believing in macro evolution then I would be an atheist.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#227. To: FormerLurker (#215)
Oh and BTW, that link you posted does NOT dispute any of the physiological evidence that I mentioned, it simply beats down straw men.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss — The Who
#228. To: farmfriend (#227)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#229. To: FormerLurker (#219)
I never said that God did not create all that exists
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