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Religion
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Title: Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old?
Source: Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove
Published: Feb 5, 2009
Author: Jason Lisle
Post Date: 2009-02-05 15:38:06 by Old Friend
Keywords: None
Views: 3629
Comments: 305

Critics of biblical creation sometimes use distant starlight as an argument against a young universe. The argument goes something like this: (1) there are galaxies that are so far away, it would take light from their stars billions of years to get from there to here; (2) we can see these galaxies, so their starlight has already arrived here; and (3) the universe must be at least billions of years old—much older than the 6,000 or so years indicated in the Bible.

Many big bang supporters consider this to be an excellent argument against the biblical timescale. But when we examine this argument carefully, we will see that it does not work. The universe is very big and contains galaxies that are very far away, but that does not mean that the universe must be billions of years old.

The distant starlight question has caused some people to question cosmic distances. “Do we really know that galaxies are so far away? Perhaps they are much closer, so the light really doesn’t travel very far.”1 However, the techniques that astronomers use to measure cosmic distances are generally logical and scientifically sound. They do not rely on evolutionary assumptions about the past. Moreover, they are a part of observational science (as opposed to historical/origins science); they are testable and repeatable in the present. You could repeat the experiment to determine the distance to a star or galaxy, and you would get approximately the same answer. So we have good reason to believe that space really is very big. In fact, the amazing size of the universe brings glory to God (Psalm 19:1).

Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.

But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this. God made our eyes to accurately probe the real universe; so we can trust that the events that we see in space really happened. For this reason, most creation scientists believe that light created in-transit is not the best way to respond to the distant starlight argument. Let me suggest that the answer to distant starlight lies in some of the unstated assumptions that secular astronomers make. The Assumptions of Light Travel-time Arguments

Any attempt to scientifically estimate the age of something will necessarily involve a number of assumptions. These can be assumptions about the starting conditions, constancy of rates, contamination of the system, and many others. If even one of these assumptions is wrong, so is the age estimate. Sometimes an incorrect worldview is to blame when people make faulty assumptions. The distant starlight argument involves several assumptions that are questionable—any one of which makes the argument unsound. Let’s examine a few of these assumptions. The Constancy of the Speed of Light

It is usually assumed that the speed of light is constant with time.2 At today’s rate, it takes light (in a vacuum) about one year to cover a distance of 6 trillion miles. But has this always been so? If we incorrectly assume that the rate has always been today’s rate, we would end up estimating an age that is much older than the true age. But some people have proposed that light was much quicker in the past. If so, light could traverse the universe in only a fraction of the time it would take today. Some creation scientists believe that this is the answer to the problem of distant starlight in a young universe.

However, the speed of light is not an “arbitrary” parameter. In other words, changing the speed of light would cause other things to change as well, such as the ratio of energy to mass in any system.3 Some people have argued that the speed of light can never have been much different than it is today because it is so connected to other constants of nature. In other words, life may not be possible if the speed of light were any different.

This is a legitimate concern. The way in which the universal constants are connected is only partially understood. So, the impact of a changing speed of light on the universe and life on earth is not fully known. Some creation scientists are actively researching questions relating to the speed of light. Other creation scientists feel that the assumption of the constancy of the speed of light is probably reasonable and that the solution to distant starlight lies elsewhere. The Assumption of Rigidity of Time

Many people assume that time flows at the same rate in all conditions. At first, this seems like a very reasonable assumption. But, in fact, this assumption is false. And there are a few different ways in which the nonrigid nature of time could allow distant starlight to reach earth within the biblical timescale.

Albert Einstein discovered that the rate at which time passes is affected by motion and by gravity. For example, when an object moves very fast, close to the speed of light, its time is slowed down. This is called “time-dilation.” So, if we were able to accelerate a clock to nearly the speed of light, that clock would tick very slowly. If we could somehow reach the speed of light, the clock would stop completely. This isn’t a problem with the clock; the effect would happen regardless of the clock’s particular construction because it is time itself that is slowed. Likewise, gravity slows the passage of time. A clock at sea-level would tick slower than one on a mountain, since the clock at sea-level is closer to the source of gravity.

It seems hard to believe that velocity or gravity would affect the passage of time since our everyday experience cannot detect this. After all, when we are traveling in a vehicle, time appears to flow at the same rate as when we are standing still. But that’s because we move so slowly compared to the speed of light, and the earth’s gravity is so weak that the effects of time-dilation are correspondingly tiny. However, the effects of time-dilation have been measured with atomic clocks.

Since time can flow at different rates from different points of view, events that would take a long time as measured by one person will take very little time as measured by another person. This also applies to distant starlight. Light that would take billions of years to reach earth (as measured by clocks in deep space) could reach earth in only thousands of years as measured by clocks on earth. This would happen naturally if the earth is in a gravitational well, which we will discuss below.

Many secular astronomers assume that the universe is infinitely big and has an infinite number of galaxies. This has never been proven, nor is there evidence that would lead us naturally to that conclusion. So, it is a leap of “blind” faith on their part. However, if we make a different assumption instead, it leads to a very different conclusion. Suppose that our solar system is located near the center of a finite distribution of galaxies. Although this cannot be proven for certain at present, it is fully consistent with the evidence; so it is a reasonable possibility.

In that case, the earth would be in a gravitational well. This term means that it would require energy to pull something away from our position into deeper space. In this gravitational well, we would not “feel” any extra gravity, nonetheless time would flow more slowly on earth (or anywhere in our solar system) than in other places of the universe. This effect is thought to be very small today; however, it may have been much stronger in the past. (If the universe is expanding as most astronomers believe, then physics demands that such effects would have been stronger when the universe was smaller). This being the case, clocks on earth would have ticked much more slowly than clocks in deep space. Thus, light from the most distant galaxies would arrive on earth in only a few thousand years as measured by clocks on earth. This idea is certainly intriguing. And although there are still a number of mathematical details that need to be worked out, the premise certainly is reasonable. Some creation scientists are actively researching this idea. Assumptions of Synchronization

Another way in which the relativity of time is important concerns the topic of synchronization: how clocks are set so that they read the same time at the same time.4 Relativity has shown that synchronization is not absolute. In other words, if one person measures two clocks to be synchronized, another person (moving at a different speed) would not necessarily measure those two clocks to be synchronized. As with time-dilation, this effect is counterintuitive because it is too small to measure in most of our everyday experience. Since there is no method by which two clocks (separated by a distance) can be synchronized in an absolute sense, such that all observers would agree regardless of motion, it follows that there is some flexibility in how we choose what constitutes synchronized clocks. The following analogy may be helpful.

Imagine that a plane leaves a certain city at 4:00 p.m. for a two-hour flight. However, when the plane lands, the time is still 4:00. Since the plane arrived at the same time it left, we might call this an instantaneous trip. How is this possible? The answer has to do with time zones. If the plane left Kentucky at 4:00 p.m. local time, it would arrive in Colorado at 4:00 p.m. local time. Of course, an observer on the plane would experience two hours of travel. So, the trip takes two hours as measured by universal time. However, as long as the plane is traveling west (and providing it travels fast enough), it will always naturally arrive at the same time it left as measured in local time.

There is a cosmic equivalent to local and universal time. Light traveling toward earth is like the plane traveling west; it always remains at the same cosmic local time. Although most astronomers today primarily use cosmic universal time (in which it takes light 100 years to travel 100 light-years), historically cosmic local time has been the standard. And so it may be that the Bible also uses cosmic local time when reporting events.

Since God created the stars on Day 4, their light would leave the star on Day 4 and reach earth on Day 4 cosmic local time. Light from all galaxies would reach earth on Day 4 if we measure it according to cosmic local time. Someone might object that the light itself would experience billions of years (as the passenger on the plane experiences the two hour trip). However, according to Einstein’s relativity, light does not experience the passage of time, so the trip would be instantaneous. Now, this idea may or may not be the reason that distant starlight is able to reach earth within the biblical timescale, but so far no one has been able to prove that the Bible does not use cosmic local time. So, it is an intriguing possibility.5 The Assumption of Naturalism

One of the most overlooked assumptions in most arguments against the Bible is the assumption of naturalism. Naturalism is the belief that nature is “all that there is.” Proponents of naturalism assume that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural laws. This is not only a blind assumption, but it is also clearly antibiblical. The Bible makes it clear that God is not bound by natural laws (they are, after all, His laws). Of course God can use laws of nature to accomplish His will; and He usually does so. In fact, natural laws could be considered a description of the way in which God normally upholds the universe. But God is supernatural and is capable of acting outside natural law.

This would certainly have been the case during Creation Week. God created the universe supernaturally. He created it from nothing, not from previous material (Hebrews 11:3). Today, we do not see God speaking into existence new stars or new kinds of creatures. This is because God ended His work of creation by the seventh day. Today, God sustains the universe in a different way than how He created it. However, the naturalist erroneously assumes that the universe was created by the same processes by which it operates today. Of course it would be absurd to apply this assumption to most other things. A flashlight, for example, operates by converting electricity into light, but the flashlight was not created by this process.

Since the stars were created during Creation Week and since God made them to give light upon the earth, the way in which distant starlight arrived on earth may have been supernatural. We cannot assume that past acts of God are necessarily understandable in terms of a current scientific mechanism, because science can only probe the way in which God sustains the universe today. It is irrational to argue that a supernatural act cannot be true on the basis that it cannot be explained by natural processes observed today.

It is perfectly acceptable for us to ask, “Did God use natural processes to get the starlight to earth in the biblical timescale? And if so, what is the mechanism?” But if no natural mechanism is apparent, this cannot be used as evidence against supernatural creation. So, the unbeliever is engaged in a subtle form of circular reasoning when he uses the assumption of naturalism to argue that distant starlight disproves the biblical timescale. Light Travel-Time: A Self-Refuting Argument

Many big bang supporters use the above assumptions to argue that the biblical timescale cannot be correct because of the light travel-time issue. But such an argument is self-refuting. It is fatally flawed because the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. In the big bang model, light is required to travel a distance much greater than should be possible within the big bang’s own timeframe of about 14 billion years. This serious difficulty for the big bang is called the “horizon problem.” 6 The following are the details. Figure 1 & 2

The Horizon Problem

In the big bang model, the universe begins in an infinitely small state called a singularity, which then rapidly expands. According to the big bang model, when the universe is still very small, it would develop different temperatures in different locations (Figure 1). Let’s suppose that point A is hot and point B is cold. Today, the universe has expanded (Figure 2), and points A and B are now widely separated.

However, the universe has an extremely uniform temperature at great distance— beyond the farthest known galaxies. In other words, points A and B have almost exactly the same temperature today. We know this because we see electromagnetic radiation coming from all directions in space in the form of microwaves. This is called the “cosmic microwave background” (CMB). The frequencies of radiation have a characteristic temperature of 2.7 K (-455°F) and are extremely uniform in all directions. The temperature deviates by only one part in 105.

The problem is this: How did points A and B come to be the same temperature? They can do this only by exchanging energy. This happens in many systems: consider an ice cube placed in hot coffee. The ice heats up and the coffee cools down by exchanging energy. Likewise, point A can give energy to point B in the form of electromagnetic radiation (light), which is the fastest way to transfer energy since nothing can travel faster than light. However, using the big bang supporters’ own assumptions, including uniformitarianism and naturalism, there has not been enough time in 14 billion years to get light from A to B; they are too far apart. This is a light travel-time problem—and a very serious one. After all, A and B have almost exactly the same temperature today, and so must have exchanged light multiple times.

Big bang supporters have proposed a number of conjectures which attempt to solve the big bang’s light travel-time problem. One of the most popular is called “inflation.” In “inflationary” models, the universe has two expansion rates: a normal rate and a fast inflation rate. The universe begins with the normal rate, which is actually quite rapid, but is slow by comparison to the next phase. Then it briefly enters the inflation phase, where the universe expands much more rapidly. At a later time, the universe goes back to the normal rate. This all happens early on, long before stars and galaxies form.

The inflation model allows points A and B to exchange energy (during the first normal expansion) and to then be pushed apart during the inflation phase to the enormous distances at which they are located today. But the inflation model amounts to nothing more than storytelling with no supporting evidence at all. It is merely speculation designed to align the big bang to conflicting observations. Moreover, inflation adds an additional set of problems and difficulties to the big bang model, such as the cause of such inflation and a graceful way to turn it off. An increasing number of secular astrophysicists are rejecting inflation for these reasons and others. Clearly, the horizon problem remains a serious light travel-time problem for the big bang.

The critic may suggest that the big bang is a better explanation of origins than the Bible since biblical creation has a light travel-time problem—distant starlight. But such an argument is not rational since the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. If both models have the same problem in essence7, then that problem cannot be used to support one model over the other. Therefore, distant starlight cannot be used to dismiss the Bible in favor of the big bang. Conclusions

So, we’ve seen that the critics of creation must use a number of assumptions in order to use distant starlight as an argument against a young universe. And many of these assumptions are questionable. Do we know that light has always propagated at today’s speed? Perhaps this is reasonable, but can we be absolutely certain, particularly during Creation Week when God was acting in a supernatural way? Can we be certain that the Bible is using “cosmic universal time,” rather than the more common “cosmic local time” in which light reaches earth instantly?

We know that the rate at which time flows is not rigid. And although secular astronomers are well aware that time is relative, they assume that this effect is (and has always been) negligible, but can we be certain that this is so? And since stars were made during Creation Week when God was supernaturally creating, how do we know for certain that distant starlight has arrived on earth by entirely natural means? Furthermore, when big bang supporters use distant starlight to argue against biblical creation, they are using a self-refuting argument since the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. When we consider all of the above, we see that distant starlight has never been a legitimate argument against the biblical timescale of a few thousand years.

As creation scientists research possible solutions to the distant starlight problem, we should also remember the body of evidence that is consistent with the youth of the universe. We see rotating spiral galaxies that cannot last multiple billions of years because they would be twisted-up beyond recognition. We see multitudes of hot blue stars, which even secular astronomers would agree cannot last billions of years.8 In our own solar system we see disintegrating comets and decaying magnetic fields that cannot last billions of years; and there is evidence that other solar systems have these things as well. Of course, such arguments also involve assumptions about the past. That is why, ultimately, the only way to know about the past for certain is to have a reliable historic record written by an eyewitness. That is exactly what we have in the Bible.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 273.

#4. To: Old Friend (#0) (Edited)

If we incorrectly assume that the rate has always been today’s rate, we would end up estimating an age that is much older than the true age. But some people have proposed that light was much quicker in the past. If so, light could traverse the universe in only a fraction of the time it would take today. Some creation scientists believe that this is the answer to the problem of distant starlight in a young universe.

Some creation scientists believe.... Believe?

A creation scientist has an agenda, simply by calling themselves creation scientists.

The universe, as measured, is about 13.5 billion years old. Now in order to get that number down to 6000 years, a whole lot of shenanigans has to be worked regarding the speed of light and the passage of time. "Believing" that these numbers aren't what they were in the past does not help them in their case of proving anything. It makes them look like idiots.

Then he has the gall to say, and I quote, "So, we’ve seen that the critics of creation must use a number of assumptions in order to use distant starlight as an argument against a young universe. "

-------> LOOK AT THE ASSUMPTIONS HE IS MAKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <-----------

And, I AM NOT A "CRITIC OF CREATION"!!! I believe in creation, I just dont buy this idiots nonsense!

PSUSA  posted on  2009-02-05   15:55:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: PSUSA (#4) (Edited)

Does distant starlight prove an old universe?

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   16:07:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Old Friend (#7)

Does distant starlight prove an old universe?

Yes, if you mean anything older than 6000 years, considering the age is in billions of year, not thousands, not millions, but billions...

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-05   16:17:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: FormerLurker (#13)

Does distant starlight prove an old universe?

Yes,

How so. Scientifically prove it.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   16:20:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Old Friend (#15)

Does distant starlight prove an old universe?

Yes. And prove it? You want me to reinvent the wheel? It's already been proven by people a lot smarter about it than I am.

To ask anyone to prove it all over again is silly, IMO.

PSUSA  posted on  2009-02-05   16:24:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: PSUSA (#17)

So your answer is someone smarter then you told you so and you believe it. Well that proves absolutely nothing. I guess from now on we should all just cut and paste our opinions.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   16:26:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Old Friend (#18)

So your answer is someone smarter then you told you so and you believe it. Well that proves absolutely nothing. I guess from now on we should all just cut and paste our opinions.

OK, I await your check in the amount of, oh, lets say $100,000. That will get me started in college. But be very prepared to write more checks. VERY prepared.

Then, I will await another check for, say, 1.5 million dollars for the necessary equipment. But again, that is an estimate. Keep that checkbook handy.

Then there's rental time on an observatory that you need to pay for. I hear that's not cheap either. That = even more checks.

I hope you have deep pockets.

PSUSA  posted on  2009-02-05   16:32:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: PSUSA (#20)

OK, I await your check in the amount of, oh, lets say $100,000. That will get me started in college. But be very prepared to write more checks. VERY prepared.

Then, I will await another check for, say, 1.5 million dollars for the necessary equipment. But again, that is an estimate. Keep that checkbook handy.

Then there's rental time on an observatory that you need to pay for. I hear that's not cheap either. That = even more checks.

I hope you have deep pockets.

You really think that you have to do all that in order to prove that distant light proves an old universe?

It is not that complicated.

God could very well have created the universe in working order. Couldn't he have done that? If you say he couldn't have done that I would like to know why. If you admit the truth, that he very well could have, then that would mean that distant starlight doesn't prove squat.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   16:38:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Old Friend (#22)

You really think that you have to do all that in order to prove that distant light proves an old universe?

Yes. You asked me to prove it all over again. That is what it would take to prove it all over again.

Tell me, what level of "proof" would suffice? Keeping in mind that there are no eyewitnesses. All we have are scientific laws that God set up to teach us about His creation. He conceals it, we find it.

Like I said in your other post, it's not a science vs God fight.

PSUSA  posted on  2009-02-05   16:45:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: PSUSA (#24)

Like I said in your other post, it's not a science vs God fight.

It is not possilbe to disprove a young earth using the basis that we see light from stars that are light years away. You have to make assumptions to come to that conclusion. You have to assume that universe wasn't completed in working order.

It don't take anything more then your mind to determine that FACT.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   16:47:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Old Friend (#25)

It is not possilbe to disprove a young earth using the basis that we see light from stars that are light years away.

Yes it is. But that level of proof will not be good enough for you. Which is why I asked you what kind of proof you would accept.

YOU have to make assumptions to come to any other conclusion. YOU have to assume the speed of light changed, gravity changed, etc. Or YOU have to assume God created it all without regard to scientific laws HE created in the first place.

I dont have to assume any such thing.

PSUSA  posted on  2009-02-05   16:54:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: PSUSA (#27)

Yes it is. But that level of proof will not be good enough for you.

Proof would be certainty. Like 1 + 1 = 2.

Can't be done. Admit it.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   17:13:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Old Friend (#31)

Proof would be certainty. Like 1 + 1 = 2.

In binary math, 1 + 1 = 10

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-05   17:51:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: FormerLurker, Old Friend (#55)

Proof would be certainty. Like 1 + 1 = 2.

In binary math, 1 + 1 = 10

Axiom: Absolutes are unobtainable in the real world.

Science does not deal in absolutes which is what drives authoritarian thinkers (more) wacky. This applies to Theologians and to Academicians who treat science as an absolute (it also includes the Septical Inquirer crowd who are neither skeptics nor enquirers).

Science says: "Based on the currently available evidence, subject to revision or rewrite upon the presentation of additional evidence, we believe that "X" is the way it is.

To the mind that thinks in absolutes that is not an acceptable answer though it be an honest answer. Fanatics think and act upon "absolutes".

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-02-05   18:00:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Original_Intent (#63)

Science does not deal in absolutes which is what drives authoritarian thinkers (more) wacky. This applies to Theologians and to Academicians who treat science as an absolute (it also includes the Septical Inquirer crowd who are neither skeptics nor enquirers).

Science says: "Based on the currently available evidence, subject to revision or rewrite upon the presentation of additional evidence, we believe that "X" is the way it is.

Now here is what the dictionary says and it aint what you said.

Science Definition

The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge.

How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   18:02:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Old Friend (#64)

You confuse Science and the Scientific Method.

The Scientific Method is a means of gaining knowledge. It is trial and error; hypothesis and theory.

Science may well be knowledge but Scientific Theories, and there is a distinction between theories and hypotheses and the general term "science", are not absolutes. They are the best explanation of the currently available evidence. The advent of new information can, and often has in the history of science, result in a theory having to be re-written or discarded based upon new evidence. For nearly 2000 years the doctrine of Galen was regarded as the final word - until Harvey, applying the Scientific Method to human physiology, upset the Apple Cart by producing contradictory evidence which resulted in Galen being supplanted.

Tell me - do you think if you sail far enough you will fall off the flat Earth?

Science is knowledge, but it is only as good as the underlying observations and experience. When that changes everything changes.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-02-05   19:36:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Original_Intent (#84)

I already said evolution was at one time probably a valid THEORY. That time has long since past. It has been thoroughly discredited.

This dating by light years is also junk science. Since no one can verify the start and how things were created.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-05   23:47:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Old Friend (#93) (Edited)

This dating by light years is also junk science

I bet you think radio waves are magic, don't you. If our knowledge of electromagnetism wasn't what it is today, you wouldn't be posting on 4um or anywhere else, as we'd still be using manual typewriters or pen and paper.

It all revolves around an understanding of the nature of light, and a huge part of it has to do with its speed.

You take quack science and call it "good", and reject sound science that results in actual working technology as "junk".

Put it to you this way. If I know a car is travelling at a constant 65 mph and it travels for one hour, I know it's traveled 65 miles. In your mind, that's junk science. But I'll try to take you through this step by step anyways in case there are others that are curious.

I know that light travels at 186,000 mph. I know that it travels a certain distance in a year, and it's called a light year. I know that if a star is 10 light years away, it took 10 years for the light from that star to get here. If it exploded 10 years ago, we'd just be seeing that explosion today.

I know that if a distant galaxy is determined to be 1 million light years away, that light took 1 million years to reach Earth. There are galaxies that are observed to be up to 12 billion light years away, so light from those galaxies took 12 billion years to get here.

Thus, the universe is AT LEAST 12 billion years old, as that is how old that light is, so those galaxies had to have existed for at least that long.

Sorry if you can't understand that, but those are the facts.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-06   0:29:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: FormerLurker (#101)

A fourth time.

Is it possible that God created the earth with starlight already reaching the earth?

Yes or No.

quit the bullshit.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-06   0:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Old Friend (#103)

Is it possible that God created the earth with starlight already reaching the earth?

I've already answered it idiot and I said it didn't matter, as even if he did, the light from those distant stars and galaxies would have gone out immediately after the laws of the universe became normal, ie. what they are today.

AND, for the universe to behave normally, it would have to have behaved that way immediately.

Many things revolve around the speed of light, such as radiation, electric fields, magnetic fields, and many other things that you wouldn't understand.

For example, the amount of energy (in joules) that a piece of matter can release is equal to the mass of that matter (in kilograms) times the speed of light squared (in meters per second). Thus, if the laws of the universe weren't what they are today, where the speed of light was infinite (instantaneous travel to infinity as you suggest), then even the smallest speck of dust would release more energy than the entire universe could ever produce, as it would release infinite energy. Thus, the universe would turn into infinite energy.

This is from the familiar equation, E=mc2,

where E = energy, m = mass, and c = speed of light

I doubt you understood any of that, but that is the definitive proof.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-06   0:47:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: FormerLurker (#105)

Yes or no or bozo.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-06   9:31:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Old Friend (#109)

BTW, did that simple math baffle you?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-06   10:18:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: FormerLurker (#112)

Answer the question above. Yes or no

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-18   23:25:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Old Friend, tom007 (#117)

Answer the question above. Yes or no

Go back and read my earlier answers. God created the Laws of the Universe, and according to those laws, the light coming from those distant stars took as many years to get here as they are far away in light years. Since the most distant galaxies we can see are billions of light years away, then the Universe is at least billions of years old.

As I said, sure, God MIGHT have created the Universe with a different set of rules in the first few seconds of its existance, but once the rules we have now were in place, the Universe as we know it today could only exist with the rules as they currently are.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   11:25:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: FormerLurker (#119)

Go back and read my earlier answers. God created the Laws of the Universe, and according to those laws, the light coming from those distant stars took as many years to get here as they are far away in light years. Since the most distant galaxies we can see are billions of light years away, then the Universe is at least billions of years old.

So you are saying it would be impossible for God to create the world the way he CLEARLY says in the Bible?

You also believe that he couldn't have created the universe with light already reaching the earth so that we could see the stars and not wait billions of years?

Tell me why God couldn't have done it that way. Who are you to place limits on what God can do?

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   11:28:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Old Friend (#120)

You also believe that he couldn't have created the universe with light already reaching the earth so that we could see the stars and not wait billions of years?

As I said, even IF the light reached the earth immediately from galaxies BILLIONS of light years away, their WOULD be no distant galaxies as the universe would be nothing but infinite energy since the laws of physics require that to be true if light had infinite speed.

Since it is NOT pure infinite energy, and the laws of physics are as they are, then the light from galaxies billions of light years away DOES take BILLIONS OF YEARS to get here. Whether it did or not before matter existed is irrelevent, as the universe as we know it today could NOT exist if light had infinite speed.

Besides, why would God trick humans that way? And what about all the other worlds with life on them, would they be tricked too?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   14:14:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: FormerLurker (#123)

As I said, even IF the light reached the earth immediately from galaxies BILLIONS of light years away, their WOULD be no distant galaxies as the universe would be nothing but infinite energy since the laws of physics require that to be true if light had infinite speed.

So with God all things are not possible. According to your anti christ views.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   15:14:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Old Friend (#124)

Let me ask you something. Why do YOU believe that the Bible is the word of God? Because your pastor told you so?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   15:47:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: FormerLurker, Old Fiend (#129)

Let me ask you something. Why do YOU believe that the Bible is the word of God? Because your pastor told you so?

While conditioning this carefully - I do believe the Christian Bible and Old Testament to be valid as works of religious writing and philosophy.

However, NO ONE can reliably date the Old Testament from an independent source. The best we can surmise, from what I have read, is that the Hebrews used texts, cobbled together, that were extant in the libraries of Egypt at the time of the Exodus. That does not tell us though when the texts were originally penned nor does it date the story of Genesis - which is an allegorical story. There is NOTHING which proves it to be the word of "God" whatever that entity may truly be. It is accepted and propounded purely on "faith" which, as defined by the late Robert Heinlein is "belief in the presence of contradictory evidence".

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-02-19   16:09:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Original_Intent (#133)

That does not tell us though when the texts were originally penned nor does it date the story of Genesis - which is an allegorical story. There is NOTHING which proves it to be the word of "God" whatever that entity may truly be.

Exactly. They can't even explain WHY they think it's the word of God.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   18:43:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: FormerLurker, Old Fiend (#145)

That does not tell us though when the texts were originally penned nor does it date the story of Genesis - which is an allegorical story. There is NOTHING which proves it to be the word of "God" whatever that entity may truly be.

Exactly. They can't even explain WHY they think it's the word of God.

Therein lies the crux of the matter. The stock answer is that it was divinely inspired because the man who wrote it said God spoke to him. In other words there is no proof of the genesis of Genesis.

Oral Roberts said God would "take him home" if he didn't raise ten million to keep Oral Roberts U. operating.

Pat Robertson says that God speaks to him and tells him what will happen in the year ahead. Does that mean he does or that Pat Robertson is a huckster? Again there is no proof other than Pat Robertson's, a neocon Televangelish huckster, worthless word.

Now we have the "usual suspects" trying to justify mass murder and genocide because it was done by Israel which has God's Carte Blanche to commit murder, genocide, run drugs, engage in Sex Slavery, provide safe haven for criminals, etc., ... because God said they could. And who said God said they could? Why the people comitting the crimes of course. That and their Neo-Nazi supporters. Killing children with White Phosphorous is good when Israel does it, because God said they could.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-02-19   19:50:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Original_Intent (#149)

Therein lies the crux of the matter. The stock answer is that it was divinely inspired because the man who wrote it said God spoke to him. In other words there is no proof of the genesis of Genesis.

God gave you a brain why don't you try using it.

People don't believe it just because someone said so. If that were true we would be muslims too. God said that he judged the world with a worldwide flood. Is there any evidence of that?

How about billions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth.

Oh you of little faith. Thinking man has all the answers. I pity you.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   20:17:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Old Friend (#162)

People don't believe it just because someone said so. If that were true we would be muslims too. God said that he judged the world with a worldwide flood. Is there any evidence of that?

The Sumerians wrote about the same flood, and the Old Testament didn't yet exist when they wrote that story. So you if you base your belief in the Bible on the flood, then you might as well put your faith into ancient Sumerian mythology, as they wrote it first.

So then, why DO you think that the words of men are the words of God?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   20:32:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: FormerLurker (#171)

The Sumerians wrote about the same flood, and the Old Testament didn't yet exist when they wrote that story.

So now you admit that there was a flood. The Sumerians passed down a version of that orally. The Sumerians are the descendants of Noah and his family. Kind of like when you are a kid and you play the game where you whisper it to the person next to you and by the time it gets to the end it is different.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   20:47:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: Old Friend (#177)

Wha...huh?

Smeites and Assyrians and Hemites all allegedly descended from Noah...

Sumerians culture arose in Iraq 20,000 years before Noah allegedly lived...

war  posted on  2009-02-19   20:52:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: war (#181)

Sumerians culture arose in Iraq 20,000 years before Noah allegedly lived...

Maybe that is true in your little head. But according to encyclopedia Britannica you are WRONG WRONG WRONG!

http://www.answers.com/topic/sumer

Region of southern Mesopotamia and site of the earliest known civilization. It was first settled c. 4500 – 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people called the Ubaidians, who drained the marshes for agriculture and developed trade. The Sumerians, who spoke a Semitic language that came to dominate the region, arrived c. 3300 BC and established the world's first known cities. These polities evolved into city-states, which eventually developed monarchical systems that later came to be loosely united under a single city, beginning with Kish c. 2800 BC. Thereafter, Kish, Erech, Ur, and Lagash vied for ascendancy for centuries; Nippur emerged as a religous centre. The area came under the control of dynasties from outside the region, beginning with Elam (c. 2530 – 2450 BC) and later Akkad, led by the Akkadian king Sargon (r. 2334 – 2279 BC). After the Akkadian dynasty collapsed, the city-states were largely independent until they were reunified under the 3rd dynasty of Ur (22nd – 21st century BC). That final Sumerian dynasty declined after being weakened by foreign invasions, and the Sumerians as a distinct political entity disappeared, becoming part of Babylonia in the 18th century BC. The Sumerian legacy includes a number of technological and cultural innovations, including the first known wheeled vehicles, the potter's wheel, a system of writing (cuneiform), and written codes of law.

For more information on Sumer, visit Britannica.com.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   20:56:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: Old Friend (#182)

Region of southern Mesopotamia and site of the earliest known civilization. It was first settled c. 4500 – 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people called the Ubaidians, who drained the marshes for agriculture and developed trade. The Sumerians, who spoke a Semitic language that came to dominate the region, arrived c. 3300 BC and established the world's first known cities. These polities evolved into city-states, which eventually developed monarchical systems that later came to be loosely united under a single city, beginning with Kish c. 2800 BC.

Now show us where it mentions any of that history in the Bible.

BTW, who wrote Genesis?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   21:09:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: FormerLurker (#191)

Now show us where it mentions any of that history in the Bible.

BTW, who wrote Genesis?

It doesn't have to mention the Bible. Tell me why it must. Genesis predates Gilgamesh.

Moses

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   21:17:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Old Friend (#193)

Genesis predates Gilgamesh.

Wrong. The Hebrew people left Egypt around 1200 BC, many centuries after the fall of the Sumerian civilization (1940 BC), and the language of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh predates the language of the Hebrew texts. The language of the earliest known tablet containing the Epic of Gilgamesh is from before 2000 BC.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   21:43:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: FormerLurker (#199)

Do not pass go. Do not collect shit. Go back and read post 185. Then research it. You are in error. Or worse deliberately lying.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   21:47:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: Old Friend (#205)

Do not pass go. Do not collect shit. Go back and read post 185.

You hate real history don't you, as you can't explain it in terms of the bible. You'll never get past go if you refuse to open your eyes, you'll crash into the first curve.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   21:55:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: FormerLurker (#207)

You hate real history don't you, as you can't explain it in terms of the bible. You'll never get past go if you refuse to open your eyes, you'll crash into the first curve.

I am not following you to hell.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   22:48:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: Old Friend (#215)

I am not following you to hell.

If there IS a hell, I'm sure there's a spot reserved for you there, since you reject the teachings of Jesus and believe in outright heresy. Time will tell now won't it...

It'd be bad enough if you simply didn't wish to change your view of things, but you attack those who try to present legitimate info on the matter, while at the same time cheering for the death and suffering being inflicted upon innocent people, including children and little babies, at the hands of your heroes, the Israelis.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   23:10:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: FormerLurker (#225)

since you reject the teachings of Jesus and believe in outright heresy.

HeHe- an apostate christian, lots of them around, tooo many really.

tom007  posted on  2009-02-19   23:41:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: tom007, Former Lurker (#230)

since you reject the teachings of Jesus and believe in outright heresy.

Jesus talked about Noah and the flood. It is you that reject the plain teachings of Jesus.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-19   23:47:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: Old Friend (#234)

Jesus talked about Noah and the flood.

Cite a Bible quote, or admit that you are making it up as you go.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-19   23:54:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: FormerLurker (#236)

Already answered for you in post 237. Did your cult cut that one out of the good book too?

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-20   0:02:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: Old Friend (#240)

Did your cult cut that one out of the good book too?

BTW, the Essenes existed BEFORE Jesus lived, as well as DURING his life. The gospels written by the apostles were burned by your cult, so we'll never know for sure what the apostles REALLY said, or what Jesus REALLY taught, unless we look at what THEY believed by investigating their origins.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-20   0:15:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: FormerLurker (#252)

BTW, the Essenes existed BEFORE Jesus lived, as well as DURING his life. The gospels written by the apostles were burned by your cult, so we'll never know for sure what the apostles REALLY said, or what Jesus REALLY taught, unless we look at what THEY believed by investigating their origins.

If that is what you want to put your faith in that is your business. Professing themselves to be wise they became fools.....That applies to you.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-20   0:18:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#261. To: Old Friend (#255)

That applies to you.

Your hypocrisy isn't just blatently obvious, but sadly pathetic, since you appear to take yourself seriously and are blind to how foolish you truly are.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-20   0:21:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: FormerLurker (#261)

I know everyone who believes Gods word (the Bible) is stupid. You on the other hand have all the answers and are a really really really smart guy. Sarcasm off.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-20   0:23:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#264. To: Old Friend (#262)

I know everyone who believes Gods word (the Bible) is stupid.

Those who believe the Universe and everything in it was created 6000 years ago are about as intelligent as any other self deluded group of people.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-20   0:26:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: FormerLurker (#264)

Those who believe the Universe and everything in it was created 6000 years ago are about as intelligent as any other self deluded group of people.

Why is that. All the evidence suggests that the Bible is correct. No contradictions in scripture. No scientific contradictions.

You have a lot of faith in those scientists whose views change daily. With every new discovery your truth changes. Back and forth blowing with the wind.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-20   0:30:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#273. To: Old Friend (#270)

Why is that. All the evidence suggests that the Bible is correct. No contradictions in scripture. No scientific contradictions.

You are an absolute crackpot cretin if you truly believe that, as it's been made clear to you in hundreds of posts on this thread that your childlike understanding of the world and the universe is woefully misguided, scientifically and historically impossible, yet you continue to make believe that only YOU and your whacked out cult know anything, that the world's scientists are all stupid, then you proceed project your own shortcomings onto those who are trying to speak to you as an adult.

I've given you mathmatical proof that the universe could not exist if light behaved any differently than it does, specifically in terms of its speed. That you can't understand the concept that light travels a certain distance in a year is rather pathetic.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-02-20   0:37:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 273.

#279. To: (#273)

I've given you mathmatical proof that the universe could not exist if light behaved any differently than it does, specifically in terms of its speed.

No you have just said you have proof over and over. You never put it up though. Your statements are not proof.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-02-20 01:50:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 273.

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