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Title: Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old?
Source:
Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove
Published: Feb 5, 2009
Author: Jason Lisle
Post Date: 2009-02-05 15:38:06 by Old Friend
Keywords: None
Views: 4018
Comments: 305
Critics of biblical creation sometimes use distant starlight as an argument against a young universe. The argument goes something like this: (1) there are galaxies that are so far away, it would take light from their stars billions of years to get from there to here; (2) we can see these galaxies, so their starlight has already arrived here; and (3) the universe must be at least billions of years old—much older than the 6,000 or so years indicated in the Bible. Many big bang supporters consider this to be an excellent argument against the biblical timescale. But when we examine this argument carefully, we will see that it does not work. The universe is very big and contains galaxies that are very far away, but that does not mean that the universe must be billions of years old. The distant starlight question has caused some people to question cosmic distances. “Do we really know that galaxies are so far away? Perhaps they are much closer, so the light really doesn’t travel very far.”1 However, the techniques that astronomers use to measure cosmic distances are generally logical and scientifically sound. They do not rely on evolutionary assumptions about the past. Moreover, they are a part of observational science (as opposed to historical/origins science); they are testable and repeatable in the present. You could repeat the experiment to determine the distance to a star or galaxy, and you would get approximately the same answer. So we have good reason to believe that space really is very big. In fact, the amazing size of the universe brings glory to God (Psalm 19:1). Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us. But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this. God made our eyes to accurately probe the real universe; so we can trust that the events that we see in space really happened. For this reason, most creation scientists believe that light created in-transit is not the best way to respond to the distant starlight argument. Let me suggest that the answer to distant starlight lies in some of the unstated assumptions that secular astronomers make. The Assumptions of Light Travel-time Arguments Any attempt to scientifically estimate the age of something will necessarily involve a number of assumptions. These can be assumptions about the starting conditions, constancy of rates, contamination of the system, and many others. If even one of these assumptions is wrong, so is the age estimate. Sometimes an incorrect worldview is to blame when people make faulty assumptions. The distant starlight argument involves several assumptions that are questionable—any one of which makes the argument unsound. Let’s examine a few of these assumptions. The Constancy of the Speed of Light It is usually assumed that the speed of light is constant with time.2 At today’s rate, it takes light (in a vacuum) about one year to cover a distance of 6 trillion miles. But has this always been so? If we incorrectly assume that the rate has always been today’s rate, we would end up estimating an age that is much older than the true age. But some people have proposed that light was much quicker in the past. If so, light could traverse the universe in only a fraction of the time it would take today. Some creation scientists believe that this is the answer to the problem of distant starlight in a young universe. However, the speed of light is not an “arbitrary” parameter. In other words, changing the speed of light would cause other things to change as well, such as the ratio of energy to mass in any system.3 Some people have argued that the speed of light can never have been much different than it is today because it is so connected to other constants of nature. In other words, life may not be possible if the speed of light were any different. This is a legitimate concern. The way in which the universal constants are connected is only partially understood. So, the impact of a changing speed of light on the universe and life on earth is not fully known. Some creation scientists are actively researching questions relating to the speed of light. Other creation scientists feel that the assumption of the constancy of the speed of light is probably reasonable and that the solution to distant starlight lies elsewhere. The Assumption of Rigidity of Time Many people assume that time flows at the same rate in all conditions. At first, this seems like a very reasonable assumption. But, in fact, this assumption is false. And there are a few different ways in which the nonrigid nature of time could allow distant starlight to reach earth within the biblical timescale. Albert Einstein discovered that the rate at which time passes is affected by motion and by gravity. For example, when an object moves very fast, close to the speed of light, its time is slowed down. This is called “time-dilation.” So, if we were able to accelerate a clock to nearly the speed of light, that clock would tick very slowly. If we could somehow reach the speed of light, the clock would stop completely. This isn’t a problem with the clock; the effect would happen regardless of the clock’s particular construction because it is time itself that is slowed. Likewise, gravity slows the passage of time. A clock at sea-level would tick slower than one on a mountain, since the clock at sea-level is closer to the source of gravity. It seems hard to believe that velocity or gravity would affect the passage of time since our everyday experience cannot detect this. After all, when we are traveling in a vehicle, time appears to flow at the same rate as when we are standing still. But that’s because we move so slowly compared to the speed of light, and the earth’s gravity is so weak that the effects of time-dilation are correspondingly tiny. However, the effects of time-dilation have been measured with atomic clocks. Since time can flow at different rates from different points of view, events that would take a long time as measured by one person will take very little time as measured by another person. This also applies to distant starlight. Light that would take billions of years to reach earth (as measured by clocks in deep space) could reach earth in only thousands of years as measured by clocks on earth. This would happen naturally if the earth is in a gravitational well, which we will discuss below. Many secular astronomers assume that the universe is infinitely big and has an infinite number of galaxies. This has never been proven, nor is there evidence that would lead us naturally to that conclusion. So, it is a leap of “blind” faith on their part. However, if we make a different assumption instead, it leads to a very different conclusion. Suppose that our solar system is located near the center of a finite distribution of galaxies. Although this cannot be proven for certain at present, it is fully consistent with the evidence; so it is a reasonable possibility. In that case, the earth would be in a gravitational well. This term means that it would require energy to pull something away from our position into deeper space. In this gravitational well, we would not “feel” any extra gravity, nonetheless time would flow more slowly on earth (or anywhere in our solar system) than in other places of the universe. This effect is thought to be very small today; however, it may have been much stronger in the past. (If the universe is expanding as most astronomers believe, then physics demands that such effects would have been stronger when the universe was smaller). This being the case, clocks on earth would have ticked much more slowly than clocks in deep space. Thus, light from the most distant galaxies would arrive on earth in only a few thousand years as measured by clocks on earth. This idea is certainly intriguing. And although there are still a number of mathematical details that need to be worked out, the premise certainly is reasonable. Some creation scientists are actively researching this idea. Assumptions of Synchronization Another way in which the relativity of time is important concerns the topic of synchronization: how clocks are set so that they read the same time at the same time.4 Relativity has shown that synchronization is not absolute. In other words, if one person measures two clocks to be synchronized, another person (moving at a different speed) would not necessarily measure those two clocks to be synchronized. As with time-dilation, this effect is counterintuitive because it is too small to measure in most of our everyday experience. Since there is no method by which two clocks (separated by a distance) can be synchronized in an absolute sense, such that all observers would agree regardless of motion, it follows that there is some flexibility in how we choose what constitutes synchronized clocks. The following analogy may be helpful. Imagine that a plane leaves a certain city at 4:00 p.m. for a two-hour flight. However, when the plane lands, the time is still 4:00. Since the plane arrived at the same time it left, we might call this an instantaneous trip. How is this possible? The answer has to do with time zones. If the plane left Kentucky at 4:00 p.m. local time, it would arrive in Colorado at 4:00 p.m. local time. Of course, an observer on the plane would experience two hours of travel. So, the trip takes two hours as measured by universal time. However, as long as the plane is traveling west (and providing it travels fast enough), it will always naturally arrive at the same time it left as measured in local time. There is a cosmic equivalent to local and universal time. Light traveling toward earth is like the plane traveling west; it always remains at the same cosmic local time. Although most astronomers today primarily use cosmic universal time (in which it takes light 100 years to travel 100 light-years), historically cosmic local time has been the standard. And so it may be that the Bible also uses cosmic local time when reporting events. Since God created the stars on Day 4, their light would leave the star on Day 4 and reach earth on Day 4 cosmic local time. Light from all galaxies would reach earth on Day 4 if we measure it according to cosmic local time. Someone might object that the light itself would experience billions of years (as the passenger on the plane experiences the two hour trip). However, according to Einstein’s relativity, light does not experience the passage of time, so the trip would be instantaneous. Now, this idea may or may not be the reason that distant starlight is able to reach earth within the biblical timescale, but so far no one has been able to prove that the Bible does not use cosmic local time. So, it is an intriguing possibility.5 The Assumption of Naturalism One of the most overlooked assumptions in most arguments against the Bible is the assumption of naturalism. Naturalism is the belief that nature is “all that there is.” Proponents of naturalism assume that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural laws. This is not only a blind assumption, but it is also clearly antibiblical. The Bible makes it clear that God is not bound by natural laws (they are, after all, His laws). Of course God can use laws of nature to accomplish His will; and He usually does so. In fact, natural laws could be considered a description of the way in which God normally upholds the universe. But God is supernatural and is capable of acting outside natural law. This would certainly have been the case during Creation Week. God created the universe supernaturally. He created it from nothing, not from previous material (Hebrews 11:3). Today, we do not see God speaking into existence new stars or new kinds of creatures. This is because God ended His work of creation by the seventh day. Today, God sustains the universe in a different way than how He created it. However, the naturalist erroneously assumes that the universe was created by the same processes by which it operates today. Of course it would be absurd to apply this assumption to most other things. A flashlight, for example, operates by converting electricity into light, but the flashlight was not created by this process. Since the stars were created during Creation Week and since God made them to give light upon the earth, the way in which distant starlight arrived on earth may have been supernatural. We cannot assume that past acts of God are necessarily understandable in terms of a current scientific mechanism, because science can only probe the way in which God sustains the universe today. It is irrational to argue that a supernatural act cannot be true on the basis that it cannot be explained by natural processes observed today. It is perfectly acceptable for us to ask, “Did God use natural processes to get the starlight to earth in the biblical timescale? And if so, what is the mechanism?” But if no natural mechanism is apparent, this cannot be used as evidence against supernatural creation. So, the unbeliever is engaged in a subtle form of circular reasoning when he uses the assumption of naturalism to argue that distant starlight disproves the biblical timescale. Light Travel-Time: A Self-Refuting Argument Many big bang supporters use the above assumptions to argue that the biblical timescale cannot be correct because of the light travel-time issue. But such an argument is self-refuting. It is fatally flawed because the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. In the big bang model, light is required to travel a distance much greater than should be possible within the big bang’s own timeframe of about 14 billion years. This serious difficulty for the big bang is called the “horizon problem.” 6 The following are the details. Figure 1 & 2 The Horizon Problem In the big bang model, the universe begins in an infinitely small state called a singularity, which then rapidly expands. According to the big bang model, when the universe is still very small, it would develop different temperatures in different locations (Figure 1). Let’s suppose that point A is hot and point B is cold. Today, the universe has expanded (Figure 2), and points A and B are now widely separated. However, the universe has an extremely uniform temperature at great distance— beyond the farthest known galaxies. In other words, points A and B have almost exactly the same temperature today. We know this because we see electromagnetic radiation coming from all directions in space in the form of microwaves. This is called the “cosmic microwave background” (CMB). The frequencies of radiation have a characteristic temperature of 2.7 K (-455°F) and are extremely uniform in all directions. The temperature deviates by only one part in 105. The problem is this: How did points A and B come to be the same temperature? They can do this only by exchanging energy. This happens in many systems: consider an ice cube placed in hot coffee. The ice heats up and the coffee cools down by exchanging energy. Likewise, point A can give energy to point B in the form of electromagnetic radiation (light), which is the fastest way to transfer energy since nothing can travel faster than light. However, using the big bang supporters’ own assumptions, including uniformitarianism and naturalism, there has not been enough time in 14 billion years to get light from A to B; they are too far apart. This is a light travel-time problem—and a very serious one. After all, A and B have almost exactly the same temperature today, and so must have exchanged light multiple times. Big bang supporters have proposed a number of conjectures which attempt to solve the big bang’s light travel-time problem. One of the most popular is called “inflation.” In “inflationary” models, the universe has two expansion rates: a normal rate and a fast inflation rate. The universe begins with the normal rate, which is actually quite rapid, but is slow by comparison to the next phase. Then it briefly enters the inflation phase, where the universe expands much more rapidly. At a later time, the universe goes back to the normal rate. This all happens early on, long before stars and galaxies form. The inflation model allows points A and B to exchange energy (during the first normal expansion) and to then be pushed apart during the inflation phase to the enormous distances at which they are located today. But the inflation model amounts to nothing more than storytelling with no supporting evidence at all. It is merely speculation designed to align the big bang to conflicting observations. Moreover, inflation adds an additional set of problems and difficulties to the big bang model, such as the cause of such inflation and a graceful way to turn it off. An increasing number of secular astrophysicists are rejecting inflation for these reasons and others. Clearly, the horizon problem remains a serious light travel-time problem for the big bang. The critic may suggest that the big bang is a better explanation of origins than the Bible since biblical creation has a light travel-time problem—distant starlight. But such an argument is not rational since the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. If both models have the same problem in essence7, then that problem cannot be used to support one model over the other. Therefore, distant starlight cannot be used to dismiss the Bible in favor of the big bang. Conclusions So, we’ve seen that the critics of creation must use a number of assumptions in order to use distant starlight as an argument against a young universe. And many of these assumptions are questionable. Do we know that light has always propagated at today’s speed? Perhaps this is reasonable, but can we be absolutely certain, particularly during Creation Week when God was acting in a supernatural way? Can we be certain that the Bible is using “cosmic universal time,” rather than the more common “cosmic local time” in which light reaches earth instantly? We know that the rate at which time flows is not rigid. And although secular astronomers are well aware that time is relative, they assume that this effect is (and has always been) negligible, but can we be certain that this is so? And since stars were made during Creation Week when God was supernaturally creating, how do we know for certain that distant starlight has arrived on earth by entirely natural means? Furthermore, when big bang supporters use distant starlight to argue against biblical creation, they are using a self-refuting argument since the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. When we consider all of the above, we see that distant starlight has never been a legitimate argument against the biblical timescale of a few thousand years. As creation scientists research possible solutions to the distant starlight problem, we should also remember the body of evidence that is consistent with the youth of the universe. We see rotating spiral galaxies that cannot last multiple billions of years because they would be twisted-up beyond recognition. We see multitudes of hot blue stars, which even secular astronomers would agree cannot last billions of years.8 In our own solar system we see disintegrating comets and decaying magnetic fields that cannot last billions of years; and there is evidence that other solar systems have these things as well. Of course, such arguments also involve assumptions about the past. That is why, ultimately, the only way to know about the past for certain is to have a reliable historic record written by an eyewitness. That is exactly what we have in the Bible.
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#154. To: Old Friend (#152)
Also the moon has no atmosphere Yep - wonder why that is? A FRIGGIN MYSTERY.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" That would be twenty twelve. He attends a fag church. His wife attends a molesters church. Methodist and Catholic.
At least the cat's response would be rational. Hey not James bond like at all. Are you too of the false belief that the distance of the stars proves the earth is millions of years old?
Can you prove that?
So is the Kama Sutra. :)
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom.~~William Wallace ALAS, BABYLON
And then all things are possible. Is it magic when you put and old dead seed in the ground and it grows?
Uh... I didn't say that. He did in his book he wrote us. He wrote it so we would know how we are supposed to live and why we are here. Your so called god would have you clueless figuring it out for yourself. Everyone with their own custom set of beliefs. A really stupid philisophy that you have.
Consider the false assumptive argument of your question. I'am going to talk to Schorder's cat.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" God gave you a brain why don't you try using it. People don't believe it just because someone said so. If that were true we would be muslims too. God said that he judged the world with a worldwide flood. Is there any evidence of that? How about billions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth. Oh you of little faith. Thinking man has all the answers. I pity you.
Pat Robertson says that God speaks to him and tells him what will happen in the year ahead. Does that mean he does or that Pat Robertson is a huckster? Again there is no proof other than Pat Robertson's, a neocon Televangelish huckster, worthless word. I agree with you about that. But remember Jesus said many would come in his name and that they would deceive people.
Dude we are talking about starlight and the age of the earth. Take your anti jew bigotry to another thread please.
Yep - wonder why that is? Your a little slow. You don't get it. When NASA was going to the moon they were worried that there would be to much dust on the surface and that the moon lander would sink through it and get stuck. That foolish belief was based on millions of years bullshit. There was not enough dust on the surface for it to be millions of years old. I guess you think that E.T. must have come and vacuumed it all up a few thousand years ago. Because that is what the thickness of the dust on the moons surface indicates.
If the question is to hard for you then by all means go pet your cat or talk to it or whatever. Just don't give it an ibuprofen.
Well yes, if the seeds are dead, or maybe they weren't dead after all? If they grow - tautological error defined here. But it is certainly magical, to me, to see a seed germamate, or any number of things that the master has made, I don't know for us, but we are surely benificaries of her handiwork and I am the first in line to express my appreciation for the effort.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Yep. And they might not even realize they are doing it.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" So the men that wrote the books that were accepted into the bible were your gods? Do you worship them? Apparently you think some guys who wrote a book created the universe, that's how bright you are...
Oh WAIT a minute, you actually believe men can fly to the moon? Isn't that against your beliefs, I mean, if God had meant for men to fly, he would have given them wings, right? Besides, physics doesn't exist according to you, so rocket ships could never fly to the moon since man doesn't have any idea of how things work, according to your fanatical beliefs at least...
The Sumerians wrote about the same flood, and the Old Testament didn't yet exist when they wrote that story. So you if you base your belief in the Bible on the flood, then you might as well put your faith into ancient Sumerian mythology, as they wrote it first. So then, why DO you think that the words of men are the words of God?
Quite actually, - I worked for NASA at Building 1, Seventh Floor, Clear Lake City and have a piece of the Space Shuttle Columbia, SS-1 on my desk as I type and am rather well familiar with the concerns NASA had with the historical first landing. You are correct that there were fears that micro dust may have led the lander to be enveloped by the dust, and on e of the (many) fears were a collective sigh of relief that the lander just hit 1/4 of dust and then found solid footing. You might get a good pair of 20X binoculars and a tripod and view the acne scarred moon surface and consider where the dust may have gone, as well as consider that a environment with no meaningful atmosphere or activity would generate dust. You may also want to re-consider you pugilistic "spit in your face" style of posting. It is not constructive - maybe that is good for you?
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Actually the Bible tells us that we will go to space.
Academy award winning writing. Bravo bravo...
You are a very stupid person. Not ignorant. Stupid. Show me something in scripture that even remotely says this bullshit you are trying to peddle.
Also I am unaware of exactly what that means. Seems to me to be a bit epistemlogically "lose".
"Satan / Cheney in "08" So now you admit that there was a flood. The Sumerians passed down a version of that orally. The Sumerians are the descendants of Noah and his family. Kind of like when you are a kid and you play the game where you whisper it to the person next to you and by the time it gets to the end it is different.
I do do that sometimes. Sorry. Mainly when people get pissy with me first.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
O please read some basic human history, who knows you might lean something. 1) Hermatica 2)Herodotus 3)Babylonian Genesis Choose your editions. Then get back to us in a few months.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Wha...huh? Smeites and Assyrians and Hemites all allegedly descended from Noah... Sumerians culture arose in Iraq 20,000 years before Noah allegedly lived...
Maybe that is true in your little head. But according to encyclopedia Britannica you are WRONG WRONG WRONG! http://www.answers.com/topic/sumer Region of southern Mesopotamia and site of the earliest known civilization. It was first settled c. 4500 – 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people called the Ubaidians, who drained the marshes for agriculture and developed trade. The Sumerians, who spoke a Semitic language that came to dominate the region, arrived c. 3300 BC and established the world's first known cities. These polities evolved into city-states, which eventually developed monarchical systems that later came to be loosely united under a single city, beginning with Kish c. 2800 BC. Thereafter, Kish, Erech, Ur, and Lagash vied for ascendancy for centuries; Nippur emerged as a religous centre. The area came under the control of dynasties from outside the region, beginning with Elam (c. 2530 – 2450 BC) and later Akkad, led by the Akkadian king Sargon (r. 2334 – 2279 BC). After the Akkadian dynasty collapsed, the city-states were largely independent until they were reunified under the 3rd dynasty of Ur (22nd – 21st century BC). That final Sumerian dynasty declined after being weakened by foreign invasions, and the Sumerians as a distinct political entity disappeared, becoming part of Babylonia in the 18th century BC. The Sumerian legacy includes a number of technological and cultural innovations, including the first known wheeled vehicles, the potter's wheel, a system of writing (cuneiform), and written codes of law. For more information on Sumer, visit Britannica.com.
Any secret masonic information would have to had come from the ancients.
The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools. - Herbert Spencer
That's pretty old. I am unaware of any ME "culture" meaning small villages, neo lithic communities before about 8500 BC. Or Thereabouts. As Noah is guessed to have been extent 2500bc??? loose, that puts the Sumerians at 23,000 bc, and as far as I know that is a time frame that does not allow for any identification of a human culture. Some burnt bones etc, but the Sumerian culture is not attested until about 3200 bc, IIRC.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" I never said there wasn'ta flood, in fact I've already spoken to you on that topic. For your information, the Sumerians didn't pass the story orally, they read from an ancient text called the Epic of Gilgamesh, which doesn't mention anything at all about Noah, but instead speaks about their hero-king Gilgamesh. The Epic of Gilgamesh predates the writing of the Genesis.
HA and no internet mineing for me.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Do you know who supposedly wrote Genesis, according to your own legends?
There's another one for your reading list OF.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" The Epic of Gilgamesh predates the writing of the Genesis. They passed it down orally. Then wrote it in a book dork. The epic of gilgamesh doesn't predate Genesis. Genesis is the beginning. Why does your essence cult call Christ a liar. Aren't they supposed to follow him? Don't bother answering your answer will be BS.
Yeah it was likely Moses.
Now show us where it mentions any of that history in the Bible. BTW, who wrote Genesis?
If you are wise you will read this. If you want to stay stupid then ignore it. Anyway, all of my adult life I have seen this type of a gaseous fog emanating from some academic forum or another on this topic and a number of others. That is why I generally call academicians the wise guys. If they are so smart why do they so regularly and speciously spew forth such vapid and empty-headed nonsense? Especially now when some people will actually take the time to look and see if what is offered has any merit. I think that it must pay very well. If they told us the moon was blue, some would no doubt take it at face value. Yet, why not just go outside at night and take a look? But some won’t look because the information comes to us well polished, decorated, and with an air of academic credence, and we are such trusting souls. The modern magician with his sleight-of-hand and magnificent disappearing acts comes with a similar bag of tricks, planning on the same outcome. The Ponzi schemer or con artist also uses the same techniques. P. T. Barnum said, “There’s a sucker born every second, and two to take him.” He was mostly counted in the second group, and seemed to know what he was talking about. But don’t take my word for it. Is the Gilgamesh epic startlingly similar to the record of Genesis? Let’s play Fox News and you decide. First, it is not news that these two records have been and are being compared and stated as being similar. This farce has been going on since the eleven tablets inscribed with the Gilgamesh “Epic” were first found nearly three centuries ago. There have been claims made along the way that a record of the flood as described in Genesis has been found in many ancient cultures and this is the sterling example poised in support. Second, the records are all translated and available for reading and inspection. I downloaded the translated versions so that I could accurately quote them and present them here. What then would stop us from making a cursory examination of the premise that these two records are so similar? What would stop us from examining whether or not the Chaldean records are the oldest form of storytelling records of this kind? The answer is that nothing can stop us now. Let’s take the second point first: that these tablets contain the oldest known writing, story, and records of historical import. Unfortunately there is nothing in the Gilgamesh tablets that suggests they are historical documents at all other than a few of the names also appear in some other ancient records. That however, doesn’t even slow these things down. Historians date these records and the fragments found at Kish, Me-tura and Urhu from about 2,600 years before Christ. That roughly corresponds to the time of the building of the first pyramids in Egypt. Aside from that, none of these tablets actually pre-dates the templates or the events in the writings of Moses, or more correctly, that of the story of Abraham, let alone Noah and the rest going right back to Adam. Abraham’s saga may be contemporaneous to these things, if they can be said to be contemporary. Yet in all that it appears that Gilgamesh could not predate the Bible, that is unless you discount that Moses wrote the book of Genesis. By the way, this is exactly where this premise gets its legs, when you scrape away the nonsense and get down to the roots. You must accept that the writings of Moses are fraudulent and come along after this Chaldean record or any of the others containing similar stuff. Babylon was likely not much of a mud brick town when Abraham was living, and may not have existed at all during Noah’s day. But to buy into this, you must accept Moses did not write the first books of the Bible and that they are later productions simply filled with myths. And if you believe that Moses did not write Genesis, why believe that he wrote anything at all? You also act to make Jesus out a liar, because he plainly stated that the writer of the first five books of the Old Testament was Moses. Then you end up with another set of problems to explain away, and the only way to do that is to say Jesus was not the Son of God, who he said he was, equal with God Almighty both omniscient and omnipresent, but was mistaken, or, better yet, was a fraud. As with many other things, you just can’t have it both ways. Along with that the Jews should be up for the grand prize as the most easily duped people in all of history, supposing that Moses did not write what was in all times attributed to him, and that all of it was created and supplied sometime after the rule of David (nearly a full millennia later) during the rule of Josiah or thereabouts, that is, if David and the rest actually ever existed. But that is the theory, and you have to buy that to make the other work. Wow. This is like buying in on the JFK theory for the shooter on that grassy knoll – you must suspend the facts, toss the records, physics, along with good sense and reason out just to get there. It makes me winded just thinking about it. In short you have to accept that everything in the Hebrew culture was a full-blown fabrication, and not a simple one, but the most elaborate kind, one that lasted for a few thousand years. Can you imagine how hard it would be to line up the conspirators over time? You must accept that although they were the greatest and most accurate recorders of all time. But to be true to this they had to be conniving recorders of fairy tales who made up stories that they then attributed as being their own, in place of what must have been a more failed history. Once that one settled in then they sold it to each successive generation – sold it to several million other unsuspecting dolts. To work, it had to all be a most elaborate myth and conspiracy, in the same fashion as the many conspiracy theories currently in vogue concerning Jesus. After all, history is a pack of lies told on the dead (a remark once attributed appropriately to the atheist Voltaire and then bandied about by many others since - who are each certainly in a position to know lies when they should hear them). Just the presentation of that heap of empty nonsense stinks to high heaven. It does have its use though – it presents me with an opportunity to poke a little fun at some seriously bad scholarship. What actually applies is that Noah’s ordeal predates the Akkadian, Sumerian, Chaldean, or any other story like it by at least a millenium. The order that the scholars have it in is just opposite of the chronology and the facts. The details in Gilgamesh and the others is sifted from the biblical record, not the other way around. That is the only plausible explanation, and the one that actually fits both dates and data. Of course, to get here you have to accept the only reasonable explanation of how the information got out in the first place. That is that Moses was the writer/recorder of the five books which bear his historical imprint, the ones attributed to his hand by all ancient and modern histories. When you come to examining the translations of Gilgamesh, you will find mention of a flood in just a handful of places where occurrences of the English word are found in the documents. Most of these are found in the ninth and eleventh tablets and when they are taken in what little context there is, most of these details bear no resemblance to anything in the narrative of Noah. A flood is also mentioned in some of the other tablets, by example (the breaks are where an unknown number of lines are missing or are not readable or where the record is simply incomplete): “…… having traveled all the roads that there are, having fetched …… from its ……, having killed ……, you set up …… for future days ……. Having founded ……, you reached ……. Having brought down the old …… forgotten forever and ……, he (?) carried out correctly ……. …… the flood …… the settlements of the Land.” Scholars may be able to load up their pipes light them and dream in the night to make something of that, but less sensible and less educated folks might read it and think the whole section is good for nothing at all. The body is certainly an epic though not a poem in the sense of say Coleridge’s “The Rhyme of The Ancient Mariner”. The English translation is barely coherent, while the ancient translated text of the Old Testament is fluent, and though antiquated, quite readable and understandable in comparison. Now let’s get to the single section that might be said to parallel the Noah account. Whoops, I let the proverbial cat out of the bag! It is perhaps two or three pages in length, or about three times the length of the story of Noah. See if you can find all the parallels and similarities that are crammed in here that the scholars see, or perhaps just the single glaring one that I tripped over. (You can find the English text at this link although we will not link to it here http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Tablet_IX) Gilgamesh or Utanapishtim (it is impossible for me to tell which) was told to tear down a place called the Reed House at the Euphrates and build a boat out of its materials. (Now that’s a similarity: there is a boat in both stories.) For this story, however, the boat, though 10 times 12 cubits high and as large as a “field,” took just a week to construct. “The boat was finished by sunset. The launching was very difficult. They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back, until two-thirds of it had gone into the water(?). Whatever I had I loaded on it: whatever silver I had I loaded on it, whatever gold I had I loaded on it. All the living beings that I had I loaded on it, I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat, all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I had go up. Shamash had set a stated time: ‘In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat! Go inside the boat, seal the entry!’ That stated time had arrived. In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down, and in the evening a rain of wheat. I watched the appearance of the weather– the weather was frightful to behold! I went into the boat and sealed the entry. For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman, I gave the palace together with its contents. Just as dawn began to glow there arose from the horizon a black cloud. Adad rumbled inside of it, before him went Shullat and Hanish, heralds going over mountain and land. Erragal pulled out the mooring poles, forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow. The Anunnaki lifted up the torches, setting the land ablaze with their flare. Stunned shock over Adad’s deeds overtook the heavens, and turned to blackness all that had been light. The… land shattered like a… pot. All day long the South Wind blew …, blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water, overwhelming the people like an attack. No one could see his fellow, they could not recognize each other in the torrent. The gods were frightened by the Flood, and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu. The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall. Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth, the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed.” I would think that a shower of bread followed by a rain of wheat might preclude the need for bringing on a flood. As getting chonked on the head by a loaf would probably get most peoples attention, if they survived. To be fair, it seems the food is for the boat people, although why they needed a sky full is not broached. There is really nothing to compare this to in the Noah story. There is apparently a fire going on preceeding, or (how can it be?) during the flood in this tale, along with a few other related catastrophes, as if the flood just wasn’t bad enough. And a mountain they came across in the very abbreviated journey was submerged with the folks on the summit in the water and not doing well. Three birds were released at the end (a dove, sparrow - both returned, and then a raven) and following that everything was let go, so that’s a similarity of sorts. The boatman came out of this better than most, as he received a palace from Gilgamesh for just caulking everything up. Not a bad deal if you can get it. But then what good is a submerged palace full of stuff. There were animals aboard (though it says nothing of how many) so that’s certainly a similarity, and there was a crowd of people, a lot more than a mere eight souls (both “kith and kin,” which I had always thought was a Scottish phrase, and other assorted hanger’s on). Gilgamesh apparently took all the cash he could get his hands on with him, not knowing what he might come across. It doesn’t state how many people were present or how much money was aboard either. But, I think the boat was loaded. Apparently this “universal” flood covered only the Euphrates basin, lasted just one week, and didn’t get rid of everybody and everything. “How, how could you bring about a Flood without consideration? Charge the violation to the violator, charge the offense to the offender, but be compassionate lest (manknind) be cut off, be patient lest they be killed. Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that a lion had appeared to diminish the people! Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that a wolf had appeared to diminish the people! Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that famine had occurred to slay the land! Instead of your bringing on the Flood, would that (Pestilent) Erra had appeared to ravage the land!” The flood was pegged by Gilgamesh as an apparent inconsiderate act on behalf of the gods, and it’s too bad that he didn’t file the complaint prior to embarking. Noah’s God wasn’t concerned with such things, as his intent was to destroy everything and everybody excepting righteous Noah. And Noah didn’t whine about things, he simply did as he was instructed. It appears that Gilgamesh or perhaps it’s Utanapishtim (it’s still difficult by reading to know who did what and Gil may have been just along for the ride) made it to the mouth of the rivers by the end of the week’s surge (it is unspecified as to which rivers it is talking about - but likely again, it’s the Tigris and Euphrates) and there he or they were allowed or were forced to disembark. Utanapishtim and his wife get a reward for suffering through this and are made gods. It then states that all the cities were still very much intact. This part is easily as entertaining as some of the descriptions found in the Book of Mormon. This is the final paragraph of this portion. It is also one of the best parts. See how many parallels you can find. “Urshanabi, this plant is a plant against decay(!) by which a man can attain his survival(!). I will bring it to Uruk-Haven, and have an old man eat the plant to test it. The plant’s name is ‘The Old Man Becomes a Young Man.’” Then I will eat it and return to the condition of my youth.” At twenty leagues they broke for some food, at thirty leagues they stopped for the night. Seeing a spring and how cool its waters were, Gilgamesh went down and was bathing in the water. A snake smelled the fragrance of the plant, silently came up and carried off the plant. While going back it sloughed off its casing.’ At that point Gilgamesh sat down, weeping, his tears streaming over the side of his nose. “Counsel me, O ferryman Urshanabi! For whom have my arms labored, Urshanabi! For whom has my heart’s blood roiled! I have not secured any good deed for myself, but done a good deed for the ‘lion of the ground’!” Now the high waters are coursing twenty leagues distant,’ as I was opening the conduit(?) I turned my equipment over into it (!). What can I find (to serve) as a marker(?) for me! I will turn back (from the journey by sea) and leave the boat by the shore!” At twenty leagues they broke for some food, at thirty leagues they stopped for the night. They arrived in Uruk-Haven. Gilgamesh said to Urshanabi, the ferryman: “Go up, Urshanabi, onto the wall of Uruk and walk around. Examine its foundation, inspect its brickwork thoroughly– is not (even the core of) the brick structure of kiln-fired brick, and did not the Seven Sages themselves lay out its plan! One league city, one league palm gardens, one league lowlands, the open area(?) of the Ishtar Temple, three leagues and the open area(?) of Uruk it encloses.” (Retrieved from “http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Epic_of_Gilgamesh”) This last bit comes from another of the earlier tablets although it too mentions a flood. “Enlil’s advice was given to Enki. Enki answered An and Enlil: “In those days, in those distant days, in those nights, in those distant nights, in those years, in those distant years, after the assembly had made the Flood sweep over to destroy the seed of mankind, among us I was the only one who was for life (?), and so he remained alive (?) — Zi-ud-sura, although (?) a human being, remained alive (?). Then you made me swear by heaven and by earth, and … that no human will be allowed to live forever (?) any more. Now, as we look at Gilgamec, could not he escape because of his mother?’” As I said, I came up with only one true similarity: it seems that a flood is mentioned, and it records a corresponding boat ride. Again, the other details and that one central similarity seem to be lifted from Noah, and not the other way around. This flood clearly was not universal, however. As for other similarities there really aren’t many that I can find. But there are enough for the truly wise among us to able to probably identify how the parallels and common threads made their way from the Old Testament and into Gilgamesh. So, why is it that this (the clearly inferior record and later record) is thought to be the source, while the clearly superior and early one is deemed the copy? Go figure. To do that you must make the theory fit for your own use. If you don’t believe that the earliest complete record of antediluvian doings is the Bible then you must find a way to have other less valuable things to predate it. By ridding yourself of Moses you can accomplish what you seek. Only then will the pieces fit. I do see a little divergence as with some of the items already mentioned (or a lot of that perhaps). Here no human is mentioned as afterward allowed to live forever, and that doesn’t parallel anything in the story of Noah in the Old Testament, as that notion was taken care of long before Noah had appeared. Noah built the ark, but Gilgamesh hired it out. Noah used wood and Gilgamesh found reeds useful. But then, Gilgamesh, Utanapishtim and company weren’t floating around for nearly as long as Noah. Last but not least, the gods are apparently in as big a mess throughout this whole episode as are the other characters, which is a sure sign of human invention and tinkering. “The gods were frightened by the flood and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu. The gods were cowering like dogs.” You will never find anything even remotely similar to that in the whole of the Bible. In the last bit of narrative, the character Enki (perhaps from the famous trio Enki, Dinki, Doo?) survived the flood, but it seems the writer indicates that good ole Gilgamesh didn’t make the final cut. I’m confused. Gilgamesh’s mother may possibly have had a hand in his undoing, too. That is, if in fact he was undone. There is no such ambiguity in the account of Noah as is found here and throughout this entire record. Well, there you have my report of this rather grand work of antiguity. My one point worth pondering was made earlier and then repeated: this record does not predate the five books of Moses, and the story of Noah found there was the source for the “shared” details in this fable. To assign this as a fable (or is it art?) you need only to read this tablet or any of the earlier ones, and all of that will be crystal clear. You may read some of the Bible and think it full of fables too, but the stories there all end in a single central point. The details are less stupendous and contrived. The events always glorify the one and only God, and the details match from place to place, through superior writing and in careful relating of the narrative. But that is really for you to decide. So, we reported and we’ll let you decide. Of course, you couldn’t get hurt by going on-line and reading some more of this seriously empty stuff for yourself. It works better and faster than any over-the-counter sleeping potion. Perhaps you’ll find it readable and uplifting and not at all as I found it — unable to float. In another essay on another day, I’ll take a look at the Babylonian “creation” epic that is similarly said to “closely follow the biblical account.” http://www.christianmonthlystandard.com/index.php/noah-versus-gilgamesh/
BTW, who wrote Genesis? It doesn't have to mention the Bible. Tell me why it must. Genesis predates Gilgamesh. Moses
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestBTW there are no asteroids in the sedimentry layers.
#155. To: FormerLurker, Twenty Twelve (#141)
I HAVE heard of a gay church where they all kiss and hold hands during their services.
#156. To: tom007 (#144)
FL, my friend, you might as well go outside and have this discussion with your neighbors pet cat.
#157. To: FormerLurker (#122)
He didn't say it. YOU and a bunch of old Popes and Roman emperors are the ones saying it or who have said it in the past. The descendents of the Jews who WROTE the Old Testament admit that the story is an allegory, not literal truth.
#158. To: Original_Intent (#133)
While conditioning this carefully - I do believe the Christian Bible and Old Testament to be valid as works of religious writing and philosophy.
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
#159. To: tom007 (#121)
If you believe in magic.
#160. To: FormerLurker (#126)
I'm saying that God doesn't need to have created the universe the way YOU demand him to have created it
#161. To: Old Friend (#156)
Are you too of the false belief that the distance of the stars proves the earth is millions of years old?
#162. To: Original_Intent (#149)
Therein lies the crux of the matter. The stock answer is that it was divinely inspired because the man who wrote it said God spoke to him. In other words there is no proof of the genesis of Genesis.
#163. To: Original_Intent (#149)
Oral Roberts said God would "take him home" if he didn't raise ten million to keep Oral Roberts U. operating.
#164. To: Original_Intent (#149)
Now we have the "usual suspects" trying to justify mass murder and genocide because it was done by Israel which has God's Carte Blanche to commit murder, genocide, run drugs, engage in Sex Slavery, provide safe haven for criminals, etc., ... because God said they could. And who said God said they could? Why the people comitting the crimes of course. That and their Neo-Nazi supporters. Killing children with White Phosphorous is good when Israel does it, because God said they could
#165. To: tom007 (#154)
Also the moon has no atmosphere
#166. To: tom007 (#161)
Consider the false assumptive argument of your question. I'am going to talk to Schorder's cat.
#167. To: Old Friend (#159)
Is it magic when you put and old dead seed in the ground and it grows?
#168. To: Old Friend (#163)
and that they would deceive people.
#169. To: Old Friend (#160)
He did in his book he wrote us. He wrote it so we would know how we are supposed to live and why we are here.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#170. To: Old Friend (#165)
When NASA was going to the moon
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#171. To: Old Friend (#162)
People don't believe it just because someone said so. If that were true we would be muslims too. God said that he judged the world with a worldwide flood. Is there any evidence of that?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#172. To: Old Friend (#165)
Your a little slow. You don't get it. When NASA was going to the moon they were worried that there would be to much dust on the surface and that the moon lander would sink through it and get stuck.
#173. To: FormerLurker (#170)
I mean, if God had meant for men to fly, he would have given them wings, right?
#174. To: tom007 (#172)
You may also want to re-consider you pugilistic "spit in your face" style of posting.
#175. To: FormerLurker (#170)
Isn't that against your beliefs, I mean, if God had meant for men to fly, he would have given them wings, right? Besides, physics doesn't exist according to you, so rocket ships could never fly to the moon since man doesn't have any idea of how things work, according to your fanatical beliefs at least...
#176. To: All (#172)
That foolish belief was based on millions of years bullshit.
#177. To: FormerLurker (#171)
The Sumerians wrote about the same flood, and the Old Testament didn't yet exist when they wrote that story.
#178. To: tom007 (#172)
You may also want to re-consider you pugilistic "spit in your face" style of posting.
#179. To: Old Friend (#177)
(Edited)
#180. To: Old Friend (#177)
#181. To: Old Friend (#177)
#182. To: war (#181)
Sumerians culture arose in Iraq 20,000 years before Noah allegedly lived...
#183. To: war (#181)
Sumerians culture arose in Iraq 20,000 years before Noah allegedly lived...
#184. To: war (#181)
Sumerians culture arose in Iraq 20,000 years before Noah allegedly lived...
#185. To: Old Friend (#177)
So now you admit that there was a flood. The Sumerians passed down a version of that orally.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#186. To: All (#184)
#187. To: Old Friend (#182)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#188. To: FormerLurker (#185)
The Epic of Gilgamesh predates the writing of the Genesis.
#189. To: FormerLurker (#185)
For your information, the Sumerians didn't pass the story orally, they read from an ancient text called the Epic of Gilgamesh, which doesn't mention anything at all about Noah, but instead speaks about their hero-king Gilgamesh.
#190. To: FormerLurker (#187)
#191. To: Old Friend (#182)
Region of southern Mesopotamia and site of the earliest known civilization. It was first settled c. 4500 – 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people called the Ubaidians, who drained the marshes for agriculture and developed trade. The Sumerians, who spoke a Semitic language that came to dominate the region, arrived c. 3300 BC and established the world's first known cities. These polities evolved into city-states, which eventually developed monarchical systems that later came to be loosely united under a single city, beginning with Kish c. 2800 BC.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#192. To: FormerLurker (#185)
#193. To: FormerLurker (#191)
Now show us where it mentions any of that history in the Bible.
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