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Title: U.S. Can Ship Afghan Aid Through Russia, Kremlin Says
Source:
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URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/w ... e/07russia.html?_r=1&ref=world
Published: Feb 7, 2009
Author: ELLEN BARRY
Post Date: 2009-02-07 10:19:43 by Jethro Tull
Keywords: None
Views: 1376
Comments: 104
U.S. Can Ship Afghan Aid Through Russia, Kremlin Says By ELLEN BARRY Published: February 6, 2009 MOSCOW — Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, said Friday that Russia had fast-tracked approval of a plan to allow the United States military to ship nonlethal equipment across Russian territory to Afghanistan. Skip to next paragraph Related News Analysis: Russia Offers Kind Words, but Its Fist Is Clenched (February 6, 2009) “We gave our consent, literally, in 24 hours,” he said. “We expect our American partners to provide a concrete request with the quantity and description of cargo. We shall grant the relevant permission as soon as it happens.” Russia has emphasized its desire to cooperate with the United States and NATO in Afghanistan since the announcement on Tuesday that Kyrgyzstan, a close Russian ally, will close the Manas air base, a critical link in supplying the war effort in Afghanistan. Losing access to the base is a serious setback to President Obama, who hopes to increase the number of troops in Afghanistan. -Snip
Poster Comment: Why wouldn't Russia allow the U.S. to ship Afghanistan bound material through their territory? Our kids are about to be turned into hamburger meat, as were the Russian kids in '87. It's get even time for the Ruskies, and dopey time for anyone supporting this looming mess.
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#1. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
Russia doesn't share a common border with "Afstanigan". We've already pissed of the Uzbeks, and now the Kyrgyz. The routes through Pakistan are unsafe, not to mention the fact that Pakistan is the breeding ground of the Taliban, and they are not our allies. We could ostensibly air-ship all supplies, but the heavy equipment would end up broken and unrepairable. All those items are transported by ship amd truck. Maybe we can sweet-talk (i.e. pay off) the Turkmenistan government.
4um Traitor Thanks Sarajevo, all the more reason to get the heck out of Afghanistan. We have enough problems without widening another war.
I hope you do not think that I'm against the war in Afghanistan. That's where this current debacle started (via Pakistan) and it should have been the primary focus instead of Iraq. This book First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan provides a surprisingly accurate account of why we should be there(a weak Afghan government allowing the expansion of the Taliban), and where we screwed up (giving millions of dollars to Afghani warlords).
This book First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan provides a surprisingly accurate account of why we should be there(a weak Afghan government allowing the expansion of the Taliban), and where we screwed up (giving millions of dollars to Afghani warlords). Say what?
Hell, we're STILL screwing up in Ashcanistan: troops camped next to poppy fields while we're fighting the "war on drugs". Total insanity. We should either wipe out the drugs there or give up on drugs here and decriminalize them to some degree, our government is practicing hypocrisy by continuing the current course.
_________________________________________________________________________ I didn't know your position until now, so thanks and good luck selling war here. Be it Bush or Obama, war in Afghanistan is anti-American in every sense of the word. Perhaps if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone. Just a thought.
That's a concept I learned in Kindergarten, and it's always worked for me. Too bad most Americans have become convinced that the best way to avoid being stung by hornets is to find bigger and more expensive ways to poke their nests with sticks.
This book First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan provides a surprisingly accurate account of why we should be there(a weak Afghan government allowing the expansion of the Taliban), and where we screwed up (giving millions of dollars to Afghani warlords). Oh fu*k. I suppose you believe "911 Official Story®" too. What the hell is wrong with people..nevermind.
4um Traitor Some NWO wars just make sense. -end sarcasm-
4um Traitor How can we get a New World Socialist Order finished with people like you unwilling to fight undeclared wars for the cartel ??? Empire isn't easy !!
4um Traitor The thing is, most people who support these wars aren't doing it because they want a New World Order. They go along with the program because the mass media and government have put it in their heads that countries with militaries and GDP's smaller than most of our neighbors in Central America are a real threat to their security.
Judging by his handle, Sarajevo probably thinks that US intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo was a beautiful humanitarian mission. So it's no wonder he's sold on Afghanistan too.
A lot of people like to expand 'free traaaade' via empire.
4um Traitor AmeriKa / NATO needs to be nuked.
4um Traitor That's a concept I learned in Kindergarten, and it's always worked for me. Too bad most Americans have become convinced that the best way to avoid being stung by hornets is to find bigger and more expensive ways to poke their nests with sticks. Very funny, Rupert! You got that right!
I agree. Most people don't have a clue what NWO stands for and they would reduce it if you told them about it to "global community." They go along with these idiotic wars because of the reason you state and also because the media have convinced them that we are the Big Dog with the Big Stick in the world ( subliminal BigBullyComplex). That we are the strongest and richest and that we can push anyone around in the schoolyard we want because that's our RIGHT ( hey we saved everyone in WWI and WWII, didn't we?) and we have many many many allies ( whose poly-syllabic post Soviet Union Empire names no one can remember) to back us up.
When I was at Bagram Air Base, we had marijuana and poppies growing next to the active runway.
I'm not here to "sell" a war. I have had experience in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian and will share a viewpoint every now and then. Oh yeah, they won't leave us alone. We are the "infidel" and as an infidel, we have no rights. I was told that while in Turkey in the '90's. It was rather prophetic.
Oh, F*ck.....no
Clarify please: do you accept "911 Official Story®" as the truth ?
4um Traitor That's rich. Somebody should have e-mailed the DEA a picture and a tip "You won't believe where I found THIS..."
_________________________________________________________________________ ??? Explain please. Those aren't high point tourist destinations.
For the UN it might be.
4um Traitor Sarajevo said he was there as a "civilian." UN related NGOers are paid employees.
you spent time living in those countries?
OK, I'm all ears. But I don't fault them for calling you an infidel. It's their nation, and our history has been one of meddling in their affairs.
They almost always refer to themselves as civilians when in combat theaters acting in a non-military support role.
4um Traitor Clarify please: do you accept "911 Official Story®" as the truth ? First, I am unfamiliar with "911 Official Story". So, no, I do not accept it. Second, All I care to know is what I observed on that day. The book title I referred you to was for interesting reading. Much of it is factual information, especially how the CIA spent millions in 8 weeks buying off Afghan warlords.
One of the largest plants was growing at the outer fenceline of KBR Village. Not one of those jokers knew what it was. [I guess that they all think that milk comes from a store..../sarcasm]
??? Explain please. Those aren't high point tourist destinations. I was working in those area's as an evil contractor. I worked as a Remote Duty Paramedic for KBR. I realize that I'll be buried for admitting that little iota of information, but WTH. It was good money, and I had the opportunity to interact with different people, and I traveled to area's that were previously inaccessible.
I wasn't UN. I was a DoD civilian, not a tourist.
You're a NEOCON. Thanks for playing
4um Traitor ??? Explain please. Those aren't high point tourist destinations. I was working in those area's as an evil contractor. I worked as a Remote Duty Paramedic for KBR. I realize that I'll be buried for admitting that little iota of information, but WTH. It was good money, and I had the opportunity to interact with different people, and I traveled to area's that were previously inaccessible. At least you're a seemingly straight forward NEOCON tool sheeple that admits your head is buried to reality.
4um Traitor Well, duh, if the CIA hadn't involved itself in this bribery venture our small military contingent in Afghanistan along with NATO's paltry numbers would have have been over run in no time at all.
How did you find 4um?
Nice....... I was honest, so I don't make it into your little fascist fuckstick society. Well, fuck you jerk-off.
An honest NEOCON big statist government worshiping contractor is still a NEOCON.
4um Traitor The CIA joker who wrote the book was in there before the militaryb action started.
It wasn't hard. I've been lurking for at least a year now.
Let's see.....most of the inflamatory posters from ToS, WA, and LP are here under their former screen names. Are you an outsider? Now, other than what I've admitted to, can you prove that I'm a "big statist government worshiping contractor"? I may have filled your drawers full of feces for the shitz-n-giggles of it. I may be a troll...oh..zot me Ba-Bee! I'll admit, you have me on the contractor part, but IMO it's just jealousy. Yeah Ba-bee! I have qualifications which you will never possess, and it ain't gunslingin'! Now, are you finished with the insults and ready to get on with an adult discussion?
First, I am unfamiliar with "911 Official Story". So, no, I do not accept it. Second, All I care to know is what I observed on that day. Now, are you finished with the insults and ready to get on with an adult discussion? I don't know yet if I'm done insulting you. I don't see a basis for discussion between us either.
4um Traitor Because the plans to invade Afghanistan were written before 9/11 happened. I think you need to read a few non-DOD recommended authors to get a more objective insight into why it doesn't matter how many troops or how much bribe $ we use in Muslim countries, we're going to continue playing wack a mole for years to come and in so doing radicalize hundreds of thousands if not millions of Muslims along the way IF WE FAIL TO CHANGE THE ROOT CAUSE OF ANTI-AMERICAN SENTIMENT ie. our current flawed FOREIGN POLICY. For starters, google Mearsheimer and Walt + LRB + Israel Lobby. Then google Michael F. Scheuer + interviews or his name and Imperial Hubris. Thirdly, go to Dr. Ron Paul's website or LewRockwell.com and read some of his archived articles on foreign policy. I think those 3 people's opinions might give you a more balanced view than what you have become accustomed to in the DOD/KBR intellectual environment.
Sarajevo: It wasn't hard. I've been lurking for at least a year now. Did your lurking start as part of a DOD job assignment? I'm just curious. You seem to be honest thusfar.
Then cease posting to me. It's simple.
What's WA?
No it's not.
4um Traitor No, I started searching the net after quite a few of the more lucid and interesting posters left ToS for other sites. I've found several sites where they've wandered to. It had nothing to do with my former employer[who, may I say, is a PoS]. The internet can be a small place.
WoW...you find it difficult to ignore, or not post to someone whom you disagree with?
What do we disagree on ?
4um Traitor Hey thanks for that reference, Sarajevo. One of the first things my eyes sighted was Obama You tube gaffes. And this subject had as it's first example one of my all time favorites - Messiah's off-the-teleprompter Bright Light idea on how we can make a significant dent on our energy usage - ie. inflate our tires better. Yuck, yuck. I remember that swarthyguy and I got quite a bit of chuckles mileage out of that one. It brings tears to my eyes as I view it again. Sigh.
This comment-"An honest NEOCON big statist government worshiping contractor is still a NEOCON".
Why are you here and not at WA ? (That's the site the biggest ASSHOLE FREEPERS ended up starting and moving to)
4um Traitor This comment-"An honest NEOCON big statist government worshiping contractor is still a NEOCON". When did you stop being a NEOCON ?
4um Traitor b. It had nothing to do with my former employer[who, may I say, is a PoS]. a. Speaking of lucid interesting posters, if you want to find Burkeman1, who is a poster I personally admire greatly, he's at the following url. I just post at 4um so I am not familiar with regular posters from Tos or LP who have migrated elsewhere. Hope Burkie is one you wanted to trace. thedailyburkeman1.blogspot.com/ b. Music to my ears. You're ok, kid, despite having a few warts.
(That's the site the biggest ASSHOLE FREEPERS ended up starting and moving to) Thanks. I need to examine it more closely at a later date.
DUmpster level RINO site.
4um Traitor There, I disagree. Iraq, yes. Jorge boosh had plans there and it was blatantly obvious. Afghanistan-OTOH, was a shot out of the blue. Nobody ever thought that a bunch of sand-monkeys based in a back-water country would attack us. BTW- they are supported by Pakistan. I think you need to read a few non-DOD recommended authors to get a more objective insight into why it doesn't matter how many troops or how much bribe $ we use in Muslim countries, we're going to continue playing wack a mole for years to come and in so doing radicalize hundreds of thousands if not millions of Muslims along the way IF WE FAIL TO CHANGE THE ROOT CAUSE OF ANTI-AMERICAN SENTIMENT ie. our current flawed FOREIGN POLICY. I never stated that I agreed with the policy. For starters, you cannot win a guerilla war. There is no way possible. That has been proven time and time again. If you slack up on the populace, they'll recruit fresh bodies. If you clamp down on the populace, those same fresh bodies will run to the guerilla factions. The only way out is appeasement (which I find disgusting) or withdrawal.
No problem. I go through several sites looking for lucid opinions on daily news articles.
(That's the site the biggest ASSHOLE FREEPERS ended up starting and moving to) I am registered member of WA. So what. I am also a registered member of WaPo, MarketWatch, Reuters, ToS, LP, Financial Times, Darwein Central, and so on. I look for good opinions and insight concerning daily events. I do limit myself though. I don't do the DailyKos or DU. I registered here because I thought I had pertinent and interesting information to add to this topic. Apparently, I was wrong.
It's better not to get involved in a no-win useless war in the first place. We need to stop feeding the defense industry machine and we need to stop blindly supporting that financial parasite thug-state, Israel and we need to stop supporting iron-fisted Muslim Strongmen like Mubarrek and the House of Saud for the benefit of keeping the price of oil down and profits up to Exxon Oil and we need to stop occupying and desecrating holy sites to Islam. Etc, etc. It's all about changing our foreign policy to effect positive outcomes for America and Americans. Be a friend to all and an enemy of none.
When did I start?
Sarajevo, is it safe to say if you've been lurking here for a year just maybe you might want to view things from a different perspective? If so, you've come to a great place. Lots of folks here voted for Herr Bush x 2 and are now up to speed as far as the elite and the manipulation they impose on us. Maybe u might also see that American intervention in both Iraq and Afghanistan are not in our best interest. So, lets see if we can't kick the can about and see who presents the best argument.
where and when did Afghanistan attack us, in your opinion?
Thanks for the url. I remember him. I think he was at ToS a couple years ago. He does have some good opinions! You're ok, kid, despite having a few warts. Warts over the age of 50 is OK, but "kid"?
We knew Afghanistan was the home of the Taliban and a safe house for AQ long before 9/11 happened. We trained and equipped the Mujhadeen to fight the Soviets under Carter. Over time Bin Laden got pissed that the Mujahdeen were being used by the US as pawns against the Soviets, to make Afghanistan the Soviet's Vietnam. He also got peeved with the way the House of Saud of which he was a member were suppressing Muslims in Saudi Arabia and the way US troops were occupying/desecrating holy sites in Mecca Saudie Arabia to provide security for US oil companies. The situation in Afghanistan was well known to the CIA. Bill Clinton was warned about the increased influence of Bin Laden and AQ in the Muslim world - Sudan offered to give Bin Laden to the CIA and Clinton refused. Afghanistan as a training ground for AQ was no surprise whatsoever to the US gov't. The US gov't - the neocons/neolibs before them - wanted 9/11 to happen.
no, you weren't wrong. i'm interested in reading about your first hand experience as a contractor in both iraq and afghanistan.
Oops. You struck me as a naive young guy in his 20's who had no ties at home and who wanted to have some "adventures" and quick $, who was footloose and fancy free and able to join the DOD and work as a contractor for KBR.
It's all about changing our foreign policy to effect positive outcomes for America and Americans. Be a friend to all and an enemy of none. That is easier said than done. Most countries, like Afghanistan, are supported by our tax dollars. That is the only reason that Karzai is our friend. Why did I mention "Karzai"? Well, his authority only extends to the outskirts of Kabul. He's powerless in the rest oif the country. It's ther warlords who have the power. Oh yeah, we pay them off, too. Big Time! If we didn't, we;d be in the same quagmire as the Russians were, and the British before them. The Uzbeks were the same. We paid them millions of dollars per month to use an old, decrepit Russian era airbase. Yeah, DoS involved themselves in Uzbek internal affairs, but they were still our friends as long as the money was flowing. When the money runs out, they'll all hate us again. It's better not to get involved in a no-win useless war in the first place. IMO- it was winnable- back in 2003-2004. Then Jorge sidetracked himself in Iraq and turned what should have been the primary goal into a backwater.
So, what about Christine's post, #65: "where and when did Afghanistan attack us, in your opinion?" Give some of your lucidity on this, please.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. all that may be true, but i don't believe for a minute that's the reason we're in afghanistan. follow the money. i.e. oil and opium. The Oil Connection: Afghanistan and Caspian Sea oil pipeline routes
Thanx! I an agree with that. I don't agree with the intervention in Iraq and never have, but I do see Afghanistan(in a lesser sense), and Pakistan (more so) to be the primary problems facing us today. The manipulation, lies, corruption, police state tactics, etc., imposed by the previous administration is telling. Many across the country are becoming fed up with the current form of government, whether it's a Dem or Rep in the hot seat.
IMO- it was winnable- back in 2003-2004. Then Jorge sidetracked himself in Iraq and turned what should have been the primary goal into a backwater. So, it was winnable. I assume that you mean that it is no longer so. Now we should compound our difficulties by irritating our relationship with a nuclear armed Pakistan to the point that we begin sending our sons onto their soil and instigating God knows what? Heaven forfend.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Afghanistan itself did not attack us-directly. Afgghanistan did provide safe haven to the people who planned and attacked us on 9/11. Now, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have moved back across the border into the tribal lands in Pakistan. They have returned to their roots, which we helped form during the Afghan-Russian war, btw. Food for thought- Did you know that in the late '70's, Afghanistan was a hippie hang-out. It was as far away from everything as you could get.
Pre 9/11, what was the government of Afghanistan and who are these people you claim were protected.
Afghanistan itself did not attack us-directly. Afghanistan did not attack us at all. Afgghanistan did provide safe haven to the people who planned and attacked us on 9/11. We attacked ourselves on 911. Nighty night.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Well, Clinton was only interested in chubby interns.................He used "Desert Fox" (Gulf War 1.5)as an excuse to cover up his affair. IMO- no one took ole' binny-boy as a serious threat. Remember when we threw several cruise missiles at a milk factory in the Sudan, and that was it...... War on WMD's is won! /sarc
Actually, I was recruited by KBR when I was in Bosnia, shortly before I retired from the military. As far as a "naive young guy in his 20's", THANX! I'll give you a bear hug for that compliment!:-)_
See post #75 please.
The Oil Connection: Afghanistan and Caspian Sea oil pipeline routes Indeed. How could I forget? Meddling in Afghanistan started out as checkmate to the Soviet Union but then whilst the wiley CIA were hunkering around training the Mujahdeen, they started thinking about those poppy fields...hmmm... and then later when the Soviet Union fell and those former Soviet Republics with huge resources of oil came to the CIA's attention and they started looking at their dated but serviceable maps showing possible transit routes for transporting oil, little light bulbs turned on. When Sudan offered up OBL, no wonder BillyJeff said thanks but no thanks...$ signs were in everyone's eyes and they realized AQ's presence in Afghanistan presented a marvelous "occupation" OPPORTUNITY in the near future.
Opium, most likely. It is over 90% if Afghanistan's GDP. Oil pipelines, OTOH, would be extremely difficult. It is a harsh terrain through mountains and hostile countries (Iran and Pakistan) IIRC, there was a similar plan for the Balkans to bypass Turkey and the Bosporus Strait a while back.
Oh-oh. Bosnia is bad news. BillyJeff intervention to cover up Monicagate. Now Bosnia is AQ's new transit zone for arms. Can military people ever say "no"? Attacking Bosnia is not defending America. I'm not going there. This venture is not upholding and defending the constitution.
IMO-yes. Boosh sidetracked us and the major amount of resources for his revenge/WMD/oil scheme. Pakistan never was our friend. They like us because we give them high tech weaponry so they can scrap with Russian-sponsored India. Note- Do you know how many Pakistani's we employ in Iraq to support the troops? Or how many Sri Lankans?, or how many Ugandans? or how many Indians? -Thousands.
"You are an old man... who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no Third Worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems! One vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multi-variant, multinational dominion of dollars! Petrol dollars, electro dollars, multi-dollars. Reichsmarks, rins, rubles, pounds and shekels! It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic, and subatomic, and galactic structure of things today." - From the movie "Network", 1976.
Why wouldn't Russia allow the U.S. to ship Afghanistan bound material through their territory?
>
#2. To: Sarajevo (#1)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#3. To: Sarajevo (#1)
#4. To: Jethro Tull (#3)
#5. To: Sarajevo (#4)
I hope you do not think that I'm against the war in Afghanistan. That's where this current debacle started (via Pakistan) and it should have been the primary focus instead of Iraq.
#6. To: Sarajevo (#4)
and where we screwed up (giving millions of dollars to Afghani warlords).
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#7. To: Sarajevo (#4)
I hope you do not think that I'm against the war in Afghanistan.
#8. To: Jethro Tull (#7)
Perhaps if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone.
#9. To: Sarajevo (#4)
I hope you do not think that I'm against the war in Afghanistan. That's where this current debacle started (via Pakistan) and it should have been the primary focus instead of Iraq.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#10. To: X-15 (#6)
Hell, we're STILL screwing up in Ashcanistan: troops camped next to poppy fields while we're fighting the "war on drugs". Total insanity. We should either wipe out the drugs there or give up on drugs here and decriminalize them to some degree, our government is practicing hypocrisy by continuing the current course.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#11. To: Rupert_Pupkin, Jethro Tull (#8)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#12. To: Rotara (#11)
How can we get a New World Socialist Order finished with people like you unwilling to fight undeclared wars for the cartel ???
#13. To: scrapper2 (#5)
#14. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#12)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#15. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#13)
Judging by his handle, Sarajevo probably thinks that US intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo was a beautiful humanitarian mission.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#16. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#8)
Perhaps if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone.
#17. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#12)
The thing is, most people who support these wars aren't doing it because they want a New World Order. They go along with the program because the mass media and government have put it in their heads that countries with militaries and GDP's smaller than most of our neighbors in Central America are a real threat to their security.
#18. To: X-15 (#6)
troops camped next to poppy fields while we're fighting the "war on drugs".
#19. To: Jethro Tull (#7)
I didn't know your position until now, so thanks and good luck selling war here.
#20. To: Rotara (#9)
Oh fu*k. I suppose you believe "911 Official Story®" too.
#21. To: Sarajevo (#20)
Oh, F*ck.....no
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#22. To: Sarajevo (#18)
When I was at Bagram Air Base, we had marijuana and poppies growing next to the active runway.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#23. To: Sarajevo (#19)
I have had experience in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian
#24. To: scrapper2 (#23)
Those aren't high point tourist destinations.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#25. To: Rotara, Sarajevo (#24)
For the UN it might be.
#26. To: Sarajevo (#19)
I have had experience in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian
#27. To: Sarajevo (#19)
I have had experience in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian and will share a viewpoint every now and then.
#28. To: scrapper2 (#25)
(Edited)
UN related NGOers are paid employees.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#29. To: Rotara (#21)
Oh, F*ck.....no
#30. To: X-15 (#22)
Somebody should have e-mailed the DEA a picture and a tip "You won't believe where I found THIS..."
#31. To: scrapper2, Rotara (#23)
I have had experience in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian.
#32. To: scrapper2, christine (#25)
Sarajevo said he was there as a "civilian." UN related NGOers are paid employees.
#33. To: Sarajevo (#29)
All I care to know is what I observed on that day.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#34. To: Sarajevo, scrapper2 (#31)
I have had experience in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#35. To: Sarajevo (#29)
Much of it is factual information, especially how the CIA spent millions in 8 weeks buying off Afghan warlords.
#36. To: Sarajevo (#31)
I was working in those area's as an evil contractor. I worked as a Remote Duty Paramedic for KBR. I realize that I'll be buried for admitting that little iota of information, but WTH. It was good money, and I had the opportunity to interact with different people, and I traveled to area's that were previously inaccessible.
#37. To: Rotara (#33)
You're a NEOCON. Thanks for playing
#38. To: Sarajevo (#37)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#39. To: scrapper2 (#35)
Well, duh, if the CIA hadn't involved itself in this bribery venture our small military contingent in Afghanistan along with NATO's paltry numbers would have have been over run in no time at all.
#40. To: scrapper2 (#36)
How did you find 4um?
#41. To: Rotara (#38)
An honest NEOCON big statist government worshiping contractor is still a NEOCON.
#42. To: Sarajevo (#41)
Clarify please: do you accept "911 Official Story®" as the truth ?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#43. To: Sarajevo (#39)
The CIA joker who wrote the book was in there before the militaryb action started.
#44. To: Sarajevo (#40)
scrapper: How did you find 4um?
#45. To: Rotara (#42)
I don't see a basis for discussion between us either.
#46. To: Sarajevo (#41)
Let's see.....most of the inflamatory posters from ToS, WA, and LP are here under their former screen names.
#47. To: Sarajevo (#45)
Then cease posting to me. It's simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#48. To: scrapper2 (#44)
Did your lurking start as part of a DOD job assignment?
#49. To: scrapper2 (#46)
What's WA?
#50. To: Rotara (#47)
No it's not.
#51. To: Sarajevo (#50)
WoW...you find it difficult to ignore, or not post to someone whom you disagree with?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#52. To: Sarajevo, swarthyguy, All (#49)
WideAwakes
#53. To: Rotara (#51)
What do we disagree on ?
#54. To: Sarajevo (#49)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#55. To: Sarajevo (#53)
What do we disagree on ?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#56. To: Sarajevo (#48)
a. No, I started searching the net after quite a few of the more lucid and interesting posters left ToS for other sites.
#57. To: Rotara (#54)
Why are you here and not at WA ?
#58. To: scrapper2 (#57)
Thanks. I need to examine it more closely at a later date.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#59. To: scrapper2 (#43)
Because the plans to invade Afghanistan were written before 9/11 happened
#60. To: scrapper2 (#52)
Hey thanks for that reference, Sarajevo.
#61. To: Rotara (#54)
Why are you here and not at WA ?
#62. To: Sarajevo (#59)
I never stated that I agreed with the policy. For starters, you cannot win a guerilla war. There is no way possible. That has been proven time and time again. If you slack up on the populace, they'll recruit fresh bodies. If you clamp down on the populace, those same fresh bodies will run to the guerilla factions. The only way out is appeasement (which I find disgusting) or withdrawal.
#63. To: Rotara (#55)
When did you stop being a NEOCON ?
#64. To: Sarajevo (#53)
#65. To: Sarajevo (#59)
Nobody ever thought that a bunch of sand-monkeys based in a back-water country would attack us.
#66. To: scrapper2 (#56)
Speaking of lucid interesting posters, if you want to find Burkeman1, who is a poster I personally admire greatly, he's at the following url.
#67. To: Sarajevo (#59)
Afghanistan-OTOH, was a shot out of the blue. Nobody ever thought that a bunch of sand-monkeys based in a back-water country would attack us. BTW- they are supported by Pakistan.
#68. To: Sarajevo (#61)
I registered here because I thought I had pertinent and interesting information to add to this topic. Apparently, I was wrong.
#69. To: Sarajevo (#66)
Warts over the age of 50 is OK, but "kid"?
#70. To: scrapper2 (#62)
#71. To: Sarajevo (#66)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#72. To: scrapper2, Sarajevo (#67)
#73. To: Jethro Tull (#64)
So, lets see if we can't kick the can about and see who presents the best argument.
#74. To: Sarajevo (#73)
It's better not to get involved in a no-win useless war in the first place.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#75. To: christine (#65)
where and when did Afghanistan attack us, in your opinion?
#76. To: Sarajevo (#75)
Afgghanistan did provide safe haven to the people who planned and attacked us on 9/11.
#77. To: Sarajevo (#75)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#78. To: scrapper2 (#67)
The US gov't - the neocons/neolibs before them - wanted 9/11 to happen.
#79. To: scrapper2 (#69)
You struck me as a naive young guy in his 20's who had no ties at home and who wanted to have some "adventures" and quick $, who was footloose and fancy free and able to join the DOD and work as a contractor for KBR.
#80. To: randge (#71)
So, what about Christine's post, #65:
#81. To: christine, Sarajevo (#72)
all that may be true, but i don't believe for a minute that's the reason we're in afghanistan. follow the money. i.e. oil and opium.
#82. To: christine (#72)
follow the money. i.e. oil and opium.
#83. To: Sarajevo (#79)
Actually, I was recruited by KBR when I was in Bosnia, shortly before I retired from the military.
#84. To: randge (#74)
I assume that you mean that it is no longer so.
#85. To: Sarajevo (#84)
 | Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#86. To: Jethro Tull (#76)
The governing force of Afghanistan was a hodgepodge of warlords (think of feudal governors), who were in power even after the Taliban took over. They were of various groups- Dari, Pashtun, Uzbek, Turkmen, etc. The Taliban was the central "government", but it wasn't much of a government. It was more like a bunch of thugs with guns. Al Qaeda (IIRC-"the Lion") was the militant arm of the Taliban who provided the 9/11 guerilla's with safe haven.
Pre 9/11, what was the government of Afghanistan and who are these people you claim were protected.
#87. To: scrapper2 (#83)
Yep, and we did that one too. After the UN embargo was enacted, we, along with Germany, supplied arms to the Bosnian Muzh. The Russians supplied the Serbs.........you see where that got us. The 1-year peacekeeping mission lasted 11 years. Can military people ever say "no"? Nope. Attacking Bosnia is not defending America. I'm not going there. This venture is not upholding and defending the constitution. We had no business in Bosnia, It was a European issue.
Oh-oh. Bosnia is bad news. BillyJeff intervention to cover up Monicagate. Now Bosnia is AQ's new transit zone for arms.
#88. To: Elliott Jackalope (#85)
From Mr. Arthur Jensen!
From the movie "Network", 1976.
#89. To: Sarajevo (#86)
so you believe that OBL was responsible for 911 which is the Official Story that Rotara cited. you don't believe that it was an inside job.
was the militant arm of the Taliban who provided the 9/11 guerilla's with safe haven.
#90. To: Sarajevo, scrapper2, Jethro Tull, christine, Rotara (#87) (Edited)
According to Kay Griggs the business of NATO is weapons sales. So, in a strict sense we have business in Europe, Asia, The Pacific Rim, etc.,. because the whole of the US Govt now exists for the benefit of the war-for-profit machine. I suspect that my grandson will return from Iraq believing that 19 Ay-rabs with box cutters had the most incredible luck one day, including causing a steel framed building with the heaviest main support beam of any building in the world (WTC3 straddled a primary electrical substation) to collapse at free fall speed into its own footprint, and wiping out many embarrassing SEC criminal cases that were stored there. And, I too would like to read about life in the theater from your point of view.
We had no business in Bosnia, It was a European issue.
#91. To: christine (#89)
President Bush decided that we could no longer be just on defense against global terrorism but we must also be on offense. On September 20, 2001, President Bush stood before a joint session of Congress, a still grieving and shocked nation and a confused world and he did change the direction of our ship of state. He dedicated America under his leadership to destroying global terrorism. The President announced the Bush Doctrine when he said: "Our war on terror begins with Al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists." Do you remember who said it ?
Before September 11, we were living with an unrealistic view of the world much like our observing Europe appease Hitler or trying to accommodate ourselves to peaceful co-existence with the Soviet Union through mutually assured destruction.
4um Traitor
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#92. To: HOUNDDAWG (#90)
4um Traitor
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#93. To: Rotara (#92) (Edited)
After the highly suspicious death of John John, I was even less hopeful that the events of 22 NOV 1963 would ever be revealed. Of course as the conspirators age more may decide that they want to confess before dying, but the majority of aging Americans don't want to risk upsetting the machine that sends their treasury checks each month. It was the murder of JFK (or America's apathy about it) that empowered the boldness we witnessed on 911. So, it's doubtful that I'll live long enough to see the truth about 911 revealed. I hope you don't wait as long for a few crumbs of truth the way I have.
INVESTIGATE 911
#94. To: Rotara (#91)
Do you remember who said it ? It was White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, wasn't it?
"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists."
#95. To: HOUNDDAWG (#90)
That's it.
...the whole of the US Govt now exists for the benefit of the war-for-profit machine...
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#96. To: HOUNDDAWG (#93)
It was the murder of JFK (or America's apathy about it) that empowered the boldness we witnessed on 911. So, it's doubtful that I'll live long enough to see the truth about 911 revealed. I hope you don't wait as long as have for a few crumbs of truth the way I have. I think you are absolutely 100% correct about Evil being empowered by Americans' naivity/apathy to JFK's murder. Speaking of deathbed confessions, what say you about Bush Sr.'s rather odd eulogy at President Ford's funeral, harking back to JFK's death and conspiracy theories...how weird...or maybe not...an old man fearing his Final Judgment coming up fast???
fter the highly suspicious death of John John, I was even less hopeful that the events of 22 NOV 1963 would ever be revealed. Of course as the conspirators age more may decide that they want to confess before dying, but the majority of aging Americans don't want to risk upsetting the machine that sends their treasury checks each month.
#97. To: HOUNDDAWG (#93)
Tracking any of the individual CIA operatives involved with the Bay of Pigs, it is impossible to ignore or deny direct connections to George H.W. Bush and his crime family, across the Kennedy assassinations, covert operations in Indochina and, later, Latin America. Consider the career of George H.W. Bush. He was a Texas oilman (Zapata Oil) and a CIA operative, involved with the Bay of Pigs. Bush's name was found in the papers of George DeMohrenschildt, one of Lee Harvey Oswald's CIA handlers. As documented by Pete Brewton, author of The Mafia, the CIA and George Bush, Bush was deeply connected with a small circle of Texas elites tied to the CIA and the Mafia, as well as the Florida-based CIA/anti-Casto Cuban exile/ Mafia milieu As Richard Nixon's hand-picked Republican National Committee chairman, and later as CIA director, Bush constantly covered-up and stonewalled for his boss about Watergate, which itself (by the admission of Frank Sturgis and others) was a cover-up of the JFK assassination.
4um Traitor
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#98. To: HOUNDDAWG (#94)
Do you remember who said it ? It was White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, wasn't it? "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists."
4um Traitor
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#99. To: Rotara (#91)
Do you remember who said it ? Bush said it but David Frum formulated the speech.
"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists."
#100. To: scrapper2 (#99)
Advertisement Complete Campaign 2004 coverage 2004 ELECTION The race for the presidency Laura Bush touts husband | Video Speech index with video Cheney: Asset or liability? Calif. gov. praises Bush | Video Bush battle over economics Hundreds arrested Stealth candidates on stump Miller set for keynote Twins take podium | Style GOP convention guide Multimedia One on One Behind the Scenes On the Floor Unconventional ElectionLine Galleries by day: 2 | 1 Video: First lady, Arnold praise Bush Video: Convention opens Opinion Michael Moore: Day 2 Chuck Raasch : Day 2 Shapiro: Hype & Glory Resources Latest poll results Graphic: Campaign ad analysis Kerry military records Bush military records GOP platform Campaign ad index Complete Campaign 2004 coverage Full text of remarks by Rudy Giuliani Prepared for delivery at the 2004 Republican National Convention on Monday Aug. 30. Welcome to the capital of the World. New York was the first capital of our great nation. It was here in 1789 in lower Manhattan that George Washington took the oath of office as the first President of the United States. It was here in 2001 in lower Manhattan that President George W. Bush stood amid the fallen towers of the World Trade Center and said to the barbaric terrorists who attacked us, "They will hear from us." They have heard from us! They heard from us in Afghanistan and we removed the Taliban. They heard from us in Iraq and we ended Saddam Hussein's reign of terror. They heard from us in Libya and without firing a shot Qadhafi abandoned weapons of mass destruction. They are hearing from us in nations that are now more reluctant to sponsor terrorists. So long as George Bush is President, is there any doubt they will continue to hear from us until we defeat global terrorism. We owe that much and more to those loved ones and heroes we lost on September 11th. The families of some of those we lost on September 11th are here with us. To them, and all those families affected by September 11th, we recognize the sacrifices your loved ones and you have made. You are in our prayers and we are in your debt. This is the first Republican Convention ever held in New York City. It makes a statement that New York City and America are open for business and stronger than ever. We're not going to let the threat of terrorism stop us from leading our lives. From the first Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, to President George W. Bush our party's great contribution is to expand freedom in our own land and all over the world. And our party is at its best when it makes certain that we have a powerful national defense in a still very dangerous world. I don't believe we're right about everything and Democrats are wrong about everything. Neither party has a monopoly on virtue. But I do believe that there are times in our history when our ideas are more necessary and important for what we are facing. There are times when leadership is the most important. On September 11, this city and our nation faced the worst attack in our history. On that day, we had to confront reality. For me, standing below the north tower and looking up and seeing the flames of hell and then realizing that I was actually seeing a man – a human being – jumping from the 101st or 102nd floor drove home to me that we were facing something beyond anything we had ever faced before. We had to concentrate all of our energy, faith and hope to get through those first hours and days. And I will always remember that moment as we escaped the building we were trapped in at 75 Barclay Street and realized that things outside might be even worse than they were inside the building. We did the best we could to communicate a message of calm and hope, as we stood on the pavement seeing a massive cloud rushing through the cavernous streets of lower Manhattan. Our people were so brave in their response. At the time, we believed we would be attacked many more times that day and in the days that followed. Spontaneously, I grabbed the arm of then Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik and said to Bernie, "Thank God George Bush is our President." And I say it again tonight, "Thank God George Bush is our President." On September 11, George W. Bush had been President less than eight months. This new President, Vice President, and new administration were faced with the worst crisis in our history. President Bush's response in keeping us unified and in turning the ship of state around from being solely on defense against terrorism to being on offense as well and for his holding us together. For that and then his determined effort to defeat global terrorism, no matter what happens in this election, President George W. Bush already has earned a place in our history as a great American President. But let's not wait for history to present the correct view of our President. Let us write our own history. We need George Bush now more than ever. The horror, the shock and the devastation of those attacks on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and over the skies of Pennsylvania lifted a cloud from our eyes. We stood face to face with those people and forces who hijacked not just airplanes but a religion and turned it into a creed of terrorism dedicated to eradicating us and our way of life. Terrorism did not start on September 11, 2001. It had been festering for many years. And the world had created a response to it that allowed it to succeed. The attack on the Israeli team at the Munich Olympics was in 1972. And the pattern had already begun. The three surviving terrorists were arrested and within two months released by the German government. Action like this became the rule, not the exception. Terrorists came to learn they could attack and often not face consequences. In 1985, terrorists attacked the Achille Lauro and murdered an American citizen who was in a wheelchair, Leon Klinghoffer. They marked him for murder solely because he was Jewish. Some of those terrorist were released and some of the remaining terrorists allowed to escape by the Italian government because of fear of reprisals. So terrorists learned they could intimidate the world community and too often the response, particularly in Europe, was "accommodation, appeasement and compromise." And worse the terrorists also learned that their cause would be taken more seriously, almost in direct proportion to the barbarity of the attack. Terrorist acts became a ticket to the international bargaining table. How else to explain Yasser Arafat winning the Nobel Peace Prize when he was supporting a terrorist plague in the Middle East that undermined any chance of peace? Before September 11, we were living with an unrealistic view of the world much like our observing Europe appease Hitler or trying to accommodate ourselves to peaceful co-existence with the Soviet Union through mutually assured destruction. President Bush decided that we could no longer be just on defense against global terrorism but we must also be on offense. On September 20, 2001, President Bush stood before a joint session of Congress, a still grieving and shocked nation and a confused world and he did change the direction of our ship of state. He dedicated America under his leadership to destroying global terrorism. The President announced the Bush Doctrine when he said: "Our war on terror begins with Al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists." And since September 11th President Bush has remained rock solid. It doesn't matter how he is demonized. It doesn't matter what the media does to ridicule him or misinterpret him or defeat him. They ridiculed Winston Churchill. They belittled Ronald Reagan. But like President Bush, they were optimists; leaders must be optimists. Their vision was beyond the present and set on a future of real peace and true freedom. Some call it stubbornness. I call it principled leadership. President Bush has the courage of his convictions. In choosing a President, we really don't choose a Republican or Democrat, a conservative or liberal. We choose a leader. And in times of danger, as we are now in, Americans should put leadership at the core of their decision. There are many qualities that make a great leader but having strong beliefs, being able to stick with them through popular and unpopular times, is the most important characteristic of a great leader. Winston Churchill saw the dangers of Hitler while his opponents characterized him as a war-mongering gadfly. Ronald Reagan saw and described the Soviet Union as "the evil empire" while world opinion accepted it as inevitable and belittled Ronald Reagan's intelligence. President Bush sees world terrorism for the evil that it is. John Kerry has no such clear, precise and consistent vision. This is not a personal criticism of John Kerry. I respect him for his service to our nation. But it is important to see the contrast in approach between the two men; President Bush, a leader who is willing to stick with difficult decisions even as public opinion shifts, and John Kerry, whose record in elected office suggests a man who changes his position often even on important issues. When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, John Kerry voted against the Persian Gulf War. Later he said he actually supported the war. Then in 2002, as he was calculating his run for President, he voted for the war in Iraq. And then just 9 months later, he voted against an $87 billion supplemental budget to fund the war and support our troops. He even, at one point, declared himself an anti-war candidate. Now, he says he's pro-war. At this rate, with 64 days left, he still has time to change his position at least three or four more times. My point about John Kerry being inconsistent is best described in his own words when he said, "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." Maybe this explains John Edwards' need for two Americas — one where John Kerry can vote for something and another where he can vote against the same thing. Yes, people in public office at times do change their minds, I've done that, or they realize they are wrong or circumstances change. But John Kerry has made it the rule to change his position, rather than the exception. In October, 2003, he told an Arab-American Institute in Detroit that a security barrier separating Israel from the Palestinian Territories was a "barrier to peace." A few months later, he took exactly the opposite position. In an interview with the Jerusalem Post he said, "Israel's security fence is a legitimate act of self defense." The contrasts are dramatic. They involve very different views of how to deal with terrorism. President Bush will make certain that we are combatting terrorism at the source, beyond our shores, so we can reduce the risk of having to confront it in the streets of New York. John Kerry's record of inconsistent positions on combatting terrorism gives us no confidence he'll pursue such a determined course. President Bush will not allow countries that appear to have ignored the lessons of history and failed for over thirty years to stand up to terrorists, to dissuade us from what is necessary for our defense. He will not let them set our agenda. Under President Bush, America will lead rather than follow. John Kerry's claim that certain foreign leaders who opposed our removal of Saddam Hussein prefer him, raises the risk that he would accommodate his position to their viewpoint. It would hardly be the first time he changed his position on matters of war and peace. I remember the days following September 11th when we were no longer Democrats or Republicans, but Americans determined to do all we could to help the victims, to rebuild our city and nation and to disable our enemies. I remember President Bush coming here on September 14, 2001 and lifting the morale of our rescue workers by talking with them and embracing them and staying with them much longer than originally planned. In fact, if you promise to keep it just between us so I don't get in trouble it was my opinion that the Secret Service was concerned about the President remaining so long in that area. With buildings still unstable, with fires raging below ground of 2000 degrees or more, there was good reason for concern. Well the President remained there and talked to everyone, the firefighters, the police officers, the healthcare workers, the clergy, but the people who spent the most time with him were our construction workers. Now New York construction workers are very special people. I'm sure this is true all over but I know the ones here the best. They were real heroes along with many others that day, volunteering immediately. And they're big, real big. Their arms are bigger than my legs and their opinions are even bigger than their arms. Now each one of them would engage the President and I imagine like his cabinet give him advice. They were advising him in their own words on exactly what he should do with the terrorists. Of course I can't repeat their exact language. But one of them really went into great detail and upon conclusion of his remarks President Bush said in a rather loud voice, "I agree." At this point the guy just beamed and all his buddies turned toward him in amazement. The guy just lost it. So he reached over, embraced the President and began hugging him enthusiastically. A Secret Service agent standing next to me looked at the President and the guy and instead of extracting the President from this bear hug, he turned toward me and put his finger in my face and said, "If this guy hurts the President, Giuliani you're finished." Meekly, and this is the moral of the story, I responded, "but it would be out of love." I also remember the heart wrenching visit President Bush made to the families of our firefighters and police officers at the Javits Center. I remember receiving all the help, assistance and support from the President and even more than we asked. For that I will be eternally grateful to President Bush. And I remember the support being bi-partisan and actually standing hand in hand Republicans and Democrats, here in New York and all over the nation. During a Boston Red Sox game there was a sign held up saying Boston loves New York. I saw a Chicago police officer sent here by Mayor Daley directing traffic in Manhattan. I'm not sure where he sent the cars, they are probably still riding around the Bronx, but it was very reassuring to know how much support we had. And as we look beyond this election – and elections do accentuate differences – let's make sure we rekindle that spirit that we are one – one America – united to end the threat of global terrorism. Certainly President Bush will keep us focused on that goal. When President Bush announced his commitment to ending global terrorism, he understood —I understood, we all understood — it was critical to remove the pillars of support for the global terrorist movement. In any plan to destroy global terrorism, removing Saddam Hussein needed to be accomplished. Frankly, I believed then and I believe now that Saddam Hussein, who supported global terrorism, slaughtered hundreds of thousands of his own people, permitted horrific atrocities against women, and used weapons of mass destruction, was himself a weapon of mass destruction. But the reasons for removing Saddam Hussein were based on issues even broader than just the presence of weapons of mass destruction. To liberate people, give them a chance for accountable, decent government and rid the world of a pillar of support for global terrorism is something for which all those involved from President Bush to the brave men and women of our armed forces should be proud. President Bush has also focused on the correct long-term answer for the violence and hatred emerging from the Middle East. The hatred and anger in the Middle East arises from the lack of accountable governments. Rather than trying to grant more freedom, create more income, improve education and basic health care, these governments deflect their own failures by pointing to America and Israel and other external scapegoats. But blaming these scapegoats does not improve the life of a single person in the Arab world. It does not relieve the plight of even one woman in Iran. It does not give a decent living to a single soul in Syria. It certainly does not stop the slaughter of African Christians in the Sudan. The changes necessary in the Middle East involve encouraging accountable, lawful governments that can be role models. This has also been an important part of the Bush Doctrine and the President's vision for the future. Have faith in the power of freedom. People who live in freedom always prevail over people who live in oppression. That's the story of the Old Testament. That's the story of World War II and the Cold War. That's the story of the firefighters and police officers and rescue workers who courageously saved thousands of lives on September 11, 2001. President Bush is the leader we need for the next four years because he sees beyond today and tomorrow. He has a vision of a peaceful Middle East and, therefore, a safer world. We will see an end to global terrorism. I can see it. I believe it. I know it will happen. It may seem a long way off. It may even seem idealistic. But it may not be as far away and idealistic as it seems. Look how quickly the Berlin Wall was torn down, the Iron Curtain ripped open and the Soviet Union disintegrated because of the power of the pent-up demand for freedom. When it catches hold there is nothing more powerful than freedom. Give it some hope, and it will overwhelm dictators, and even defeat terrorists. That is what we have done and must continue to do in Iraq. That is what the Republican Party does best – when we are at our best, we extend freedom. It's our mission. And it's the long-term answer to ending global terrorism. Governments that are free and accountable. We have won many battles – at home and abroad – but as President Bush told us on September 20, 2001 it will take a long-term determined effort to prevail. The war on terrorism will not be won in a single battle. There will be no dramatic surrender. There will be no crumbling of a massive wall. But we will know it. We'll know it as accountable governments continue to develop in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. We'll know it as terrorist attacks throughout the world decrease and then end. And then, God willing, we'll all be able on a future anniversary of September 11th. To say to our fallen brothers and sisters. To our heroes of the worst attack in our history and to our heroes who have sacrificed their lives in the war on terror. We will say to them we have done all that we could with our lives that were spared to make your sacrifices build a world of real peace and true freedom. We will make certain in the words of President Bush that they have heard from us. That they have heard from us a message of peace through free, accountable, lawful and decent governments giving people hope for a future for themselves and their children. God bless each one we have lost, here and abroad, and their families. God bless all those defending our freedom. God bless America. Posted 8/30/2004 10:37 PM Updated 8/30/2004 11:56 PM
4um Traitor
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#101. To: Rotara (#100)
Motor Mouth Ju-lie Giuliani - I should have guessed after I read the references to Klinghoffer and Izzy's fence.
#102. To: scrapper2 (#96)
It was positively BIZARRE! And, yes, I believe that he was whistling past the cemetery, or, rehearsing his alibi for his moment before the throne. If he intended to credit Ford for seeing America through one of our darkest moments he failed, because Ford was a comfort to no one except the conspirators and that was for Ford's work tainting the Warren Commission evidence. No one felt that we were in good hands with him after he pardoned Nixon and then proceeded to trip while deplaning from Air Force One, breaking his fall with his face.... Speaking for myself, my soul was as pained and vacant with Ford as president as when "Landslide Lyndon" took office.
Speaking of deathbed confessions, what say you about Bush Sr.'s rather odd eulogy at President Ford's funeral, harking back to JFK's death and conspiracy theories...how weird...or maybe not...an old man fearing his Final Judgment coming up fast???
#103. To: HOUNDDAWG (#90)
From Iraq to community college for a degree in communication, where upon graduation they will be fully qualified for the 3rd shift at Wendy's. Then, as compassionate parents and grandparents, we'll let them sleep on our sofa's until they get on their economic feet, which can't possibly happen. Our kiddies need tough love. Without it, they'll never take the time to learn what we know.
I suspect that my grandson will return from Iraq believing that 19 Ay-rabs with box cutters had the most incredible luck one day
#104. To: Jethro Tull (#103)
I told his mother that I must have written a million words in opposition to the war, and my own grandson slipped into the army before I knew what was happening. And now I feel an overwhelming guilt. I was only 15 yrs old when I fathered his Mom so I didn't raise her, but I fully expected to have some input into my grandson's life. (I was 35 when he was born and I've only known about them both for a few years, but I still feel as if I failed the boy)
From Iraq to community college for a degree in communication, where upon graduation they will be fully qualified for the 3rd shift at Wendy's. Then, as compassionate parents and grandparents, we'll let them sleep on our sofa's until they get on their economic feet, which can't possibly happen. Our kiddies need tough love. Without it, they'll never take the time to learn what we know.
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