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Title: How old is the earth? by Bodie Hodge
Source:
Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2007/05/30/how-old-is-earth
Published: Feb 21, 2009
Author: Bodie Hodge
Post Date: 2009-02-21 18:32:28 by Old Friend
Keywords: None
Views: 806
Comments: 53
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). The question of the age of the earth has produced heated discussions on debate boards, classrooms, TV, radio, and in many churches, Christian colleges, and seminaries. The primary sides are: * Young earth proponents (biblical age of the earth and universe of about 6,000 years)1 * Old earth proponents (secular age of the earth of about 4.5 billion years and a universe about 14 billion years old)2 The difference is immense! Let’s give a little history of where these two basic calculations came from and which worldview is more reasonable. Where did a young-earth worldview come from? Simply put, it came from the Bible. Of course, the Bible doesn’t say explicitly anywhere, “the earth is 6,000 years old.” Good thing it doesn’t; otherwise it would be out of date the following year. But we wouldn’t expect an all-knowing God to make that kind of a mistake. God gave us something better. In essence, He gave us a “birth certificate.” For example, using my personal birth certificate, I can calculate how old I am at any point. It is similar with the earth. Genesis 1 says that the earth was created on the first day of creation (Genesis 1:1–5). From there, we can begin calculations of the age of the earth. Let’s do a rough calculation to show how this works. The age of the earth can be estimated by taking the first 5 days of creation (from earth’s creation to Adam), then following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham in Genesis 5 and 11, then adding in the time from Abraham to today. Adam was created on Day 6, so there were 5 days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago). So a simple calculation is: 5 days + ~2000 years + ~4000 years ______________ ~6000 years At this point, the first 5 days are negligible. Quite a few people have done this calculation using the Masoretic text (which is what most English translations are based on) and, with careful attention to the biblical details, have arrived at the same time-frame of about 6,000 years, or about 4,000 B.C. Two of the most popular, and perhaps the best in my opinion, are a recent work by Dr. Floyd Jones and a much earlier book by Archbishop James Ussher (1581–1656): Table 1 Jones and Ussher Who? Age calculated Reference and date 1 Archbishop James Ussher 4004 B.C. The Annals of the World, 1658 A.D.4 2 Dr. Floyd Nolan Jones 4004 B.C. The Chronology of the Old Testament, 1993 A.D.5 Often, there is a misconception that Ussher and Jones were the only ones to do a chronology and arrive a date of about 6,000 years. However this is not the case at all. Jones gives a listing of several chronologists who have undertaken the task of calculating the age of the earth based on the Bible and their calculations range from 5501 to 3836 B.C. A few are listed in Table 2. Table 2 Chronologists’ calculations according to Dr. Jones6 Chronologist When calculated? Date BC 1 Julius Africanus c. 240 5501 2 George Syncellus c. 810 5492 3 John Jackson 1752 5426 4 Dr William Hales c. 1830 5411 5 Eusebius c. 330 5199 6 Marianus Scotus c. 1070 4192 7 L. Condomanus n/a 4141 8 Thomas Lydiat c. 1600 4103 9 M. Michael Maestlinus c. 1600 4079 10 J. Ricciolus n/a 4062 11 Jacob Salianus c. 1600 4053 12 H. Spondanus c. 1600 4051 13 Martin Anstey 1913 4042 14 W. Lange n/a 4041 15 E. Reinholt n/a 4021 16 J. Cappellus c. 1600 4005 17 E. Greswell 1830 4004 18 E. Faulstich 1986 4001 19 D. Petavius c. 1627 3983 20 Frank Klassen 1975 3975 21 Becke n/a 3974 22 Krentzeim n/a 3971 23 W. Dolen 2003 3971 24 E. Reusnerus n/a 3970 25 J. Claverius n/a 3968 26 C. Longomontanus c. 1600 3966 27 P. Melanchthon c. 1550 3964 28 J. Haynlinus n/a 3963 29 A. Salmeron d. 1585 3958 30 J. Scaliger d. 1609 3949 31 M. Beroaldus c. 1575 3927 32 A. Helwigius c. 1630 3836 As you will likely note from Table 2, the dates are not all 4004 B.C. There are several reasons chronologists have different dates7 but the two primary ones are: 1. Some used the Septuagint or another early translation, instead of the Hebrew Masoretic text. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, done about 250 B.C. by about 70 Jewish scholars (hence it is often cited as the LXX). It is good in most places, but appears to have a number of inaccuracies. For example, one relates to the Genesis chronologies where the LXX indicates that Methuselah would have lived past the Flood, without being on the Ark! 2. Several points in the biblical time-line are not straightforward to calculate. They require very careful study of more than one passage. These include exactly how much time the Israelites were in Egypt and what Terah’s age was when Abraham was born. (See Jones’ and Ussher’s books for a detailed discussion of these difficulties.) The first four in Table 2 (bolded) are calculated from the Septuagint, which gives ages for the patriarchs’ firstborn much higher than the Masoretic text or the Samarian Pentateuch (another version from the Jews in Samaria just before Christ). Because of this, the LXX adds in extra time. Though the Samarian and Masoretic texts are much closer, they still have a couple of differences. Table 3 Septuagint, Masoretic and Samarian early patriarchal ages8 Name Masoretic Samarian Pentateuch Septuagint Adam 130 130 230 Seth 105 105 205 Enosh 90 90 190 Cainan 70 70 170 Mahalaleel 65 65 165 Jared 162 62 162 Enoch 65 65 165 Methuselah 187 67 167 Lamech 182 53 188 Noah 500 500 500 Using data from Table 2 (excluding the Septuagint calculations and including Jones and Ussher), the average date of the creation of the earth is 4045 B.C. This still yields an average of about 6,000 years for the age of the earth. What about extra-biblical calculations for the age of the earth? Cultures throughout the world have kept track of history as well. From a biblical perspective, we would expect the dates given for creation of the earth to align much closer to the biblical date than billions of years. This is expected since everyone was descended from Noah and scattered from the Tower of Babel. Another expectation is that there should be some discrepancies among the age of the earth as people scattered throughout the world, taking their uninspired records or oral history to different parts of the globe. Under the entry “creation,” Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible9 lists William Hales’ accumulation of dates of creation from many cultures and in most cases Hales says which authority gave the date. Table 4 Selected Hales’ dates for the age of the earth by various cultures Culture Age, B.C. Authority listed by Hales 1 Spain by Alfonso X 6984 Muller 2 Spain by Alfonso X 6484 Strauchius 3 India 6204 Gentil 4 India 6174 Arab Records 5 Babylon 6158 Bailly 6 Chinese 6157 Bailly 7 Greece by Diogenes Laertius 6138 Playfair 8 Egypt 6081 Bailly 9 Persia 5507 Bailly 10 Israel/Judea by Josephus 5555 Playfair 11 Israel/Judea by Josephus 5481 Jackson 12 Israel/Judea by Josephus 5402 Hales 13 Israel/Judea by Josephus 4698 University History 14 India 5369 Megasthenes 15 Babylon (Talmud) 5344 Petrus Alliacens 16 Vatican (Catholic using the Septuagint) 5270 N/A 17 Samaria 4427 Scaliger 18 German, Holy Roman Empire by Johannes Kepler10 3993 Playfair 19 German, reformer by Martin Luther 3961 N/A 20 Israel/Judea by computation 3760 Strauchius 21 Israel/Judea by Rabbi Lipman 3616 University History These were not the only ones. Historian Bill Cooper’s research in After the Flood provides intriguing dates from several ancient cultures.11 The first is that of the Anglo-Saxons, whose history has 5200 years from creation to Christ, according to the Laud and Parker Chronicles. Cooper’s research also indicated that Nennius’ record of the ancient British history has 5228 years from creation to Christ. The Irish chronology has a date of about 4000 B.C. for creation which is surprisingly close to Ussher and Jones! Even the Mayans had a date for the Flood of 3113 B.C. This meticulous work of many historians should not be ignored. Their dates of only thousands of years are good support for the biblical date of about 6,000 years, but not for billions of years. Where did the old-earth worldview come from? Prior to the 1700s, few believed in an old earth. The approximate 6,000-year age for the earth was challenged only rather recently, beginning in the late 18th century. These opponents of the biblical chronology essentially left God out of the picture. Three of the old-earth advocates included Comte de Buffon, who thought the earth was at least 75,000 years old. Pièrre LaPlace imagined an indefinite but very long history. And Jean Lamarck also proposed long ages.12 However, the idea of millions of years really took hold in geology when men like Abraham Werner, James Hutton, William Smith, Georges Cuvier, and Charles Lyell used their interpretations of geology as the standard, rather than the Bible. Werner estimated the age of the earth at about one million years. Smith and Cuvier believed untold ages were needed for the formation of rock layers. Hutton said he could see no geological evidence of a beginning of the earth; and building on Hutton’s thinking, Lyell advocated "millions of years".13 From these men and others came the consensus view that the geologic layers were laid down slowly over long periods of time based on the rates we see them accumulating today. Hutton said: The past history of our globe must be explained by what can be seen to be happening now. ... No powers are to be employed that are not natural to the globe, no action to be admitted except those of which we know the principle.14 This viewpoint is called naturalistic uniformitarianism, and would exclude any major catastrophes like Noah’s Flood. Though some, such as Cuvier and Smith, believed in multiple catastrophes separated by long periods of time, the uniformitarian concept became the ruling dogma in geology. Thinking biblically, we can see that the global Flood in Genesis 6–8 would wipe away the concept of millions of years, for this Flood would explain massive amounts of fossil layers. Most Christians fail to realize that if there was a global Flood, it would rip up many of the previous rock layers and redeposit them elsewhere, destroying the previous fragile contents. This would destroy any evidence of alleged millions of years anyway. So the rock layers can theoretically represent the evidence of either millions of years or a global Flood, but not both. Sadly, by about 1840 even most of the Church had accepted the dogmatic claims of the secular geologists and rejected the global Flood and the biblical age of the earth. After Lyell, in 1899, Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) calculated the age of the earth, based on the cooling rate of a molten sphere, at a maximum of about 20–40 million years (this was revised from his earlier calculation of 100 million years in 1862).15 With the development of radiometric dating in the early 20th century, the age of the earth expanded radically. In 1913 Arthur Holmes’ book, The Age of the Earth, gave an age of 1.6 billion years.16 Since then, the supposed age of the earth has expanded to its present estimate of about 4.5 billion years (and about 14 billion years for the universe). Table 5 Summary of the old-earth proponents for long ages Who? Age of the earth When was this? Comte de Buffon 78 thousand years old 1779 Abraham Werner 1 million years 1786 James Hutton Perhaps eternal, long Ages 1795 Pièrre LaPlace Long ages 1796 Jean Lamarck Long ages 1809 William Smith Long ages 1835 Georges Cuvier Long ages 1812 Charles Lyell Millions of years 1830-1833 Lord Kelvin 20-100 million years 1862-1899 Arthur Holmes 1.6 billion years 1913 But there is growing scientific evidence that radiometric dating methods are completely unreliable.17 Christians who have felt compelled to accept the millions of years as fact and try to fit them in the Bible need to become aware of this evidence. It confirms that the Bible’s history is giving us the true age of the creation. Today, secular geologists will allow some catastrophic events into their thinking as an explanation for what they see in the rocks. But uniformitarian thinking is still widespread and secular geologists will seemingly never entertain the idea of the global catastrophic Flood of Noah’s day. The age of the earth debate ultimately comes down to this foundational question. Are we trusting man’s imperfect and changing ideas and assumptions about the past or trusting God’s perfectly accurate eyewitness account of the past, including the creation of the world, Noah’s global Flood and the age of the earth? What about other uniformitarian methods for dating the age of the earth? Radiometric dating was the culminating factor that led to the belief in billions of years for earth history. However, radiometric dating methods are not the only uniformitarian methods. Any radiometric dating model or other uniformitarian dating method can and does have problems as referenced before (Reference 16). All uniformitarian dating methods make assumptions. The assumptions related to radiometric dating can be seen in these questions: 1. Initial amounts? 2. Was any parent amount added? 3. Was any daughter amount added? 4. Was any parent amount removed? 5. Was any daughter amount removed? 6. Has the rate changed? If the assumptions are truly accurate, then uniformitarian dates should agree with radiometric dating across the board for the same event. However, radiometric dates often disagree with dates obtained from other uniformitarian dating methods for the age of the earth, such as the influx of salts into the ocean, the rate of decay of the earth’s magnetic field, the growth rate of human population, etc.18 Henry Morris accumulated a list of 68 uniformitarian estimates for the age of the earth by Christian and secular sources.19 The current accepted age of the earth is about 4.54 billion years based on radiometric dating meteorites,20 so keep this in mind when viewing Table 6. Table 6 Uniformitarian Estimates for earth’s Age accumulated by Dr Henry Morris 0 – 10,000 years >10,000 – 100,000 years >100,000 – 1 million years >1 million – 500 million years >500 million – 4 billion years >4 billion – 5 billion years Number of uniformitarian methods21 23 10 11 23 0 0 As you can see, uniformitarian maximum ages for the earth obtained from other methods are nowhere near the 4.5 billion years estimated by radiometric dating; of the other methods only two calculated dates were as much as 500 million years. Some radiometric dating methods completely undermine other radiometric dates too. One such example is carbon-14 (14C) dating. As long as an organism is alive it takes in 14C and 12C from the atmosphere; however when it dies, it will stop. Since 14C is radioactive (decays into 14N), the amount of 14C in a dead organism gets less and less over time. Carbon-14 dates are determined from the measured ratio of radioactive carbon-14 to normal carbon-12 (14C/12C). Used on samples which were once alive, such as wood or bone, the measured 14C/12C ratio is compared with the ratio in living things today. Now, 14C has a derived half-life of less than 6,000 years, so it should all have decayed into nitrogen by 100,000 years, at the maximum.22 Some things, such as wood trapped in lava flows, that are said to be millions of years old by other radiometric dating methods still have 14C in them.23 If the items were really millions of years old, then they shouldn’t have any traces of 14C. Coal and diamonds, which are found in or sandwiched between rock layers allegedly millions of years old, have been shown to have 14C ages of only tens of thousands of years.24 So which date, if any, is correct? The diamonds or coal can’t be millions of years old if they have any traces of 14C still in them. So this shows that these dating methods are completely unreliable and indicates that the presumed assumptions in the methods are erroneous. Similar kinds of problems are seen in the case of potassium-argon dating, which is considered one of the most reliable methods. Dr. Andrew Snelling, a geologist, points out several of these problems with potassium-argon, as seen in Table 7.24 Table 7: Potassium-argon dates in error Volcanic eruption When the rock formed Date by radiometric dating Mt Etna basalt, Sicily 122 BC 170,000–330,000 years old Mt Etna basalt, Sicily AD 1972 210,000–490,000 years old Mt St. Helens, Washington AD 1986 300,000–400,000 years old Hualalai basalt, Hawaii AD 1800–1801 1.44–1.76 million years old Mt Ngauruhoe, New Zealand AD 1954 3.3–3.7 million years old Kilauea Iki basalt, Hawaii AD 1959 1.7–15.3 million years old These and other examples raise a critical question. If radiometric dating fails to get an accurate date on something of which we do know the true age, then how can it be trusted to give us the correct age for rocks that had no human observers to record when they formed? If the methods don’t work on rocks of known age, it is most unreasonable to trust that they work on rocks of unknown age. It is far more rational to trust the Word of the God who created the world, knows its history perfectly, and has revealed sufficient information in the Bible for us to understand that history and the age of the creation. Conclusion When we start our thinking with God’s Word, we see that the world is about 6,000 years old. When we rely on man’s fallible (and often demonstrably false) dating methods, we can get a confusing range of ages from a few thousand to billions of years, though the vast majority of methods do not give dates even close to billions. Cultures around the world give an age of the earth which confirms what the Bible teaches. Radiometric dates, on the other hand, have been shown to be wildly in error. The age of the earth ultimately comes down to a matter of trust—it’s a worldview issue. Will you trust what an all-knowing God says on the subject or will you trust imperfect man’s assumptions and imaginations about the past that regularly are changing? Thus says the LORD: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest? For all those things My hand has made, and all those things exist,” says the LORD. But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word (Isaiah 66:1–2).
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#14. To: FormerLurker (#12)
God said let the light from the start show their light on the earth. You say God is a little sissy and couldn't do that. Well your little g "god" Satan can't do that. But the creator can. Then it happened. I can't help it if you don't know God. That you have spent your life with Satan instead of the father. If you want to be charcoal that is your business.
Don't you have some Jews to nuke or something? hmm killer.
You are a nut. Do you believe God created the world? Do you know everything about what is in space and what it does to light when it travels through it?
Ok lets look at another aspect of this. God not only made the light reach the earth instantly. The trees were fully grown. Adam and Eve weren't even babies. They were created as Adults. But you think God created light in the stars and was such a puss he had to wait around a billion years for the light to reach the earth. You are a very arrogant person who fancies themself smart. Well you are not the least bit smart. In fact you are a captial F Fool.
And Jesus invented the Internet, and typed the words you read as anything else would be impossible. Technology doesn't exist, it's all the work of the devil (or God pulling a prank just to test your faith)...
OBJECTS travelling near light speed will undergo time dilation. LIGHT ITSELF still travels at the speed it does, and the light reaching us from the sun left the sun 500 seconds ago, since 93 million miles / 186 thousand miles per second = 500 seconds. Laser distance finders work as expected, radio waves travel as expected, and various other things work as they do BECAUSE of the fundamental knowledge that light travels at 186 thousand miles per second. To think it behaves otherwise indicates you never got far in school, and have no understanding of how things work. Not just how scientists THINK they work, but how they've been DESIGNED and OBSERVED to work. In fact, radio wavelength is calculated as the speed of light / oscillations per second, so a 100 meter wave is simply the speed of light in meters per second (300 million meters per second) / frequency of the wave , so to find the frequency; c/F = L, where c = speed of light, F = frequency, L = wavelength; F = c/L = 300 million m per second/ 100 m = 3 million oscillations per second, or 3MHZ (3 Megahertz). You see Old Friend, if there was no such thing as the speed of light, we would never have been able to invent radio waves or been able to tune a receiver in order to receive them. It's not magic, it's how the universe works, and that is how God made it. He doesn't need to follow the instructions given by a bunch of goat herders thousands of years ago.
Not even the Bible says that. It's bad enough you think a bunch of ancient goat herders were the voice of God (or WERE God Himself), you even misquote what they wrote.
Don't be stupid. Of course there is speed of light. Are you on drugs?
It is in the first book of Genesis.
So you don't think it is possible that God would reveal himself to a "bunch of goat herders" as you call them. Who would he have revealed himself to back then? Or I know he is going to reveal everything to you. People don't like arrogant fools like you.
You have only men's word that they were telling the truth. That for me is not enough. As far as "revealing" goes, I think it's more likely a spiritual person will discover the truth on his or her own, without believing the literal interpretation of texts written by an animal sacrificing warlike cult that existed thousands of years ago. You're right, "goat herders" is too kind of a word for the people who shed innocent blood at the supposed request of their "god". Concerning arrogant fools, all you need to do is look in the mirror to find one...
Are you on drugs? You can't have it both ways. Either the light from the stars travels at the speed of light, or it gets here instantly. Which is it?
Ok, I missed a verse or two. It's says, Genesis 1 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. So it apparently says that God created the sun on day one, but it doesn't say anything about the stars. OR, it could mean that He separated the INITIAL light of the BigBang from the emptiness of space, where there is some other meaning for the terms "day" and "night". Skipping to the fourth "day", it says' 14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. So in verse 16, it pretty much says God created the sun and the moon. So much for the sun being created on the first day. If you wish to believe that there was light for day and night without the sun being there, as implied by verse 5, then that requires some serious magical thinking on your part. Keep in mind, this was written before it was understood that the light of the sun is what gives us daylight. That is why Galieo suffered persecution by the church, as his model of the sun and the planets pretty much invalidated the idea that the sun revolved around the earth and that there was daylight just because God made it so, without the need for a sun. And yes, it does mention that he created the stars on the 4th day. Well not really, it says he created the LIGHT of the stars on that day, and THEN created the stars. This is before people understood that stars are distant suns, and before they had any idea of the speed of light.
You have the Bible. And nature.
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
SO tell me OF, would there be day and night on earth if the earth didn't revolve around the sun, or if there WAS no sun at all?
There is also Buddism, Hinduism, and a myraid number of other religions. What makes the sand people who wrote the Old Testament so special? Is it because THEY say they are, is THAT what makes them special?
No not as we know it. I'm surprised you didn't know that.
Is it because THEY say they are, is THAT what makes them special? Because it is perfect. It has no contradictions zero nada. It has prophecy that has foretold the future and still does. It is full of love while the Koran is full of hate.
But WAIT, doesn't the Bible say that there was day and night before the sun was created? 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
No it isn't, and if you don't see contradictions there, you aren't very bright. It has prophecy that has foretold the future and still does. Uh huh. Name ONE. It is full of love while the Koran is full of hate. So what, are you a converted Muslim or something? All I'm saying is that it is the work of men, and they are not God, nor do they speak for him. If you can't understand that, there's not much use speaking to you any further.
Heh heh..ya' just figured that out? :) He's been on bozo for some time and my computer screen thanks me for it daily.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom.~~William Wallace ALAS, BABYLON
Sure it is. Such as the genocide God inflicted upon all of the Earth's creatures because he was upset over the behaviour of a few people, or his order to "utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey" in reference to some folks the Israelis didn't like much. Yeah, it that's love, then I guess you must think the Israelis are just showing their love for the Palestinians when Israeli bombs their homes and kills their children and farm animals.
God is the judge. Wait til Hell.
Name some if you can. No cut and pasting of big lists.
Must have been some kind of light before it was put into the sun.
Likewise OF, but don't forget to bring the marshmellows, you might find them handy... Or perhaps there IS no fiery hell that you imagine. Perhaps instead you'll get some sort of retribution by being reincarnated as a Palestinian, and see what it's like to receive "love" from Israel.
So light was "put into" the sun, eh?
MMMMMmmmmm smores!!!!!!!
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
Oh, please please please tell me that Old Fiend is claiming there are no contradictions in the Bible. Please... I have him bozo'd so I don't see his postings... but if he is, in fact, making that claim please please please let me know. Oh man oh man.. I have page after page after page of direct contradictions directly from the bible that I'd dearly love to share here. It would be a real hoot.
The grown ups understand how things work, and we've figured out a few things well beyond what you can imagine.
#15. To: IndieTX (#13)
Thanks for spamming my screen
#16. To: FormerLurker (#12)
So if something goes 2 mph, and travels for 2 hours, it traveled 4 miles. Wow, that must amaze you to the point you can't believe it, and find that it must be the work of the devil.
#17. To: FormerLurker (#12)
#18. To: Old Friend (#17)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#19. To: Old Friend (#16)
(Edited)
Do you know everything about what is in space and what it does to light when it travels through it?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#20. To: Old Friend (#14)
God said let the light from the start show their light on the earth.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#21. To: FormerLurker (#19)
there was no such thing as the speed of light,
#22. To: FormerLurker (#20)
Not even the Bible says that.
#23. To: FormerLurker (#20)
It's bad enough you think a bunch of ancient goat herders were the voice of God (or WERE God Himself), you even misquote what they wrote.
#24. To: Old Friend (#23)
So you don't think it is possible that God would reveal himself to a "bunch of goat herders" as you call them.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#25. To: Old Friend (#21)
Don't be stupid. Of course there is speed of light.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#26. To: Old Friend (#22)
(Edited)
It is in the first book of Genesis.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#27. To: FormerLurker (#24)
You have only men's word that they were telling the truth. That for me is not enough.
#28. To: FormerLurker (#26)
#29. To: Old Friend (#28)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#30. To: Old Friend (#27)
You have the Bible.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#31. To: FormerLurker (#29)
SO tell me OF, would there be day and night on earth if the earth didn't revolve around the sun, or if there WAS no sun at all?
#32. To: FormerLurker (#30)
There is also Buddism, Hinduism, and a myraid number of other religions. What makes the sand people who wrote the Old Testament so special?
#33. To: Old Friend (#31)
No not as we know it. I'm surprised you didn't know that.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#34. To: Old Friend (#32)
Because it is perfect. It has no contradictions zero nada.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#35. To: FormerLurker (#34)
there's not much use speaking to you any further.
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
#36. To: Old Friend (#32)
It is full of love
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#37. To: FormerLurker (#36)
Sure it is. Such as the genocide God inflicted upon all of the Earth's creatures because he was upset over the behaviour of a few people, or his order to "utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey" in reference to some folks the Israelis didn't like much.
#38. To: FormerLurker (#34)
No it isn't, and if you don't see contradictions there, you aren't very bright.
#39. To: FormerLurker (#33)
But WAIT, doesn't the Bible say that there was day and night before the sun was created?
#40. To: Old Friend (#37)
God is the judge. Wait til Hell.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#41. To: Old Friend (#39)
Must have been some kind of light before it was put into the sun.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#42. To: FormerLurker (#40)
but don't forget to bring the marshmellows,
#43. To: FormerLurker (#34)
 | Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#44. To: Elliott Jackalope (#43) (Edited)
Yep, he sure is. I didn't have the time to toss some out for him, and I'm sure he'd stand on his head trying to say they aren't really contradictions, so I haven't bothered as of yet. But if you have some ready to discuss with him, have at it Elliott... :)
but if he is, in fact, making that claim please please please let me know. Oh man oh man.. I have page after page after page of direct contradictions directly from the bible that I'd dearly love to share here. It would be a real hoot.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#45. To: IndieTX (#35)
It's fun to see him make a fool of himself and back himself into a corner with no escape.
He's been on bozo for some time and my computer screen thanks me for it daily.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#46. To: PSUSA (#42)
Somebody needs to bring along some graham crackers and Hershey bars, in case OF forgets... LOL
MMMMMmmmmm smores!!!!!!!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#47. To: FormerLurker (#44)
Working on it now, I'm going to double check and cross reference some material I have to find the best examples that I can find. There's not going to be any room for weasel words to say "oh no, that's not what it really meant". Either the words mean what they say, or they don't.
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#48. To: Elliott Jackalope (#47)
I'm interested in seeing that.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
#49. To: PSUSA (#48)
All quotes directly from the King James bible. Old Testament contradictions ===== Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. As compared to... Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ===== Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. As compared to... Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And then... Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. ===== Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. As compared to... Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, ===== Proverbs 4:1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. As compared to... Ecclesiastes 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. ===== Isiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. As compared to... ===== Do you answer a fool in their folly? Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. And yet, on the very next line, it says... Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Riiight... no contradictions whatsoever. None. Nope. ===== New Testament contradictions ===== Who was Joseph? Matthew 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; As compared to... Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ===== John 10:27 (Jesus speaking) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: As compared to... John 14:28 (Jesus speaking) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (Note: These are both from the book of John. Jesus directly contradicts himself!) ===== Luke 22:35 And he (Jesus) said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. As compared to... Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. ===== John 5:30 (Jesus speaking) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. As compared to... John 8:18 (Jesus speaking) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Yes, even Jesus directly contradicts himself, in the same book written by the same disciple. Did anyone back then ever hear of proofreading? ===== There's many other contradictions as well, mostly between Old Testament and New Testament, but I've left those alone for now because they're just too easy. I wanted to focus on the ones that are the most directly contradictory and even the self-contradictory. This is hardly a complete list, I'd post even more but I have things I need to do today. Maybe later I'll put up "Part two in a continuing series."
Let's begin with the beginning: Genesis.
Did birds come from the water or from the ground?
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Which came first? Man or the animals?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
How many animals were on Noah's ark?
Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Is it a good thing to be "wise"?
Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Proverbs 4:3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
Proverbs 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Proverbs 4:6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Proverbs 4:8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.
Proverbs 4:9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Ecclesiastes 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Sins of the father?
Isiah 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ok, you may say, but that's the Old Testament. What about the NEW Testament?
Matthew 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Matthew 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Matthew 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Luke 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luke 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luke 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Is Jesus the equal of God?
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Should you wield a sword?
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Shall I bear witness of myself?
John5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#50. To: Elliott Jackalope (#49) (Edited)
OK, pick one. Otherwise it will become really messy, really quick. Perhaps start a different thread? Do keep in mind, however, that I don't subscribe to the "KJV is inerrant" nonsense. It's good, IMO. But there are errors. If there are errors, I will point them out and show that they are errors. Or, if I dont know the answer, I'll say so. I dont pretend to know all, but I do know when I am on safe ground.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
#51. To: PSUSA (#50)
Or, if I dont know the answer, I'll say so. I dont pretend to know all, but I do know when I am on safe ground. So there is no perfect word of God in your opinion? You call it nonsense. Then you said you don't pretend to know it all. Doesn't add up.
Do keep in mind, however, that I don't subscribe to the "KJV is inerrant" nonsense. It's good, IMO. But there are errors. If there are errors, I will point them out and show that they are errors.
#52. To: Old Friend (#51)
Which version of the KJV is "perfect"? The 1611? Some other?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
#53. To: PSUSA (#52)
Not the new one that is for sure. Others to consider would be the Biships Bible and the Geneva Bible.
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