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Title: Religion’s Tidal Wave—The Final Reckoning
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Published: Feb 24, 2009
Author: Various -- Bible
Post Date: 2009-02-24 11:56:17 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 360
Comments: 23
Religion’s Tidal Wave—The Final Reckoning BONFIRES crackle, sparklers flash, rockets rush to color the sky red, blue, yellow, and green. Potatoes in their jackets. Peals of laughter, shrieks of delight. Bonfire Night in England. WORKERS found the 25 corpses by accident. The skeletons had been carefully buried, arms folded. Historians thus stumbled onto a trail of mystery going back some 200 years. Quebec, Canada. The above are two unconnected events with a common root—the Reformation. AN ARTICLE in our October 1 issue showed that Europe witnessed tremendous religious upheaval in the 16th century. The results spread to other parts of the world. Many aspects of life today are nothing more than gullies left by the Reformation waters. Perhaps they even influence your daily routine. Still more important, we stand on the brink of a final religious catastrophe that will definitely affect your life. Do you know how? Trace the Reformation tracks in the following countries: Germany: Some say that Luther’s influence on German culture is unequaled by that of any individual in the English-speaking world. His translation of the Scriptures is one of the most widely accepted German Bibles. Luther did much to set the tone of the language and to lay the framework for German domestic relations. He made the State recognize the need for schooling for all, elevating the status of the teaching profession. Canada: The colonial past saw Britain and France engaged in a tug-of-war that left its mark on one province in particular—Quebec. Originally settled by French Catholic immigrants, Quebec came under British, and hence Protestant, control in 1763. It was shortly before then that the corpses mentioned at the start of this article were secretly buried near the fortified walls of the city. Why secretly? Because they seem to have been Protestants, who at that time were denied burial in Catholic cemeteries. Quebec still stands as an island of French-speaking Catholicism, and this gives rise to modern separatist movements. Ireland: Unimpressed by the Reformation, the Emerald Isle kept its distance. In time, Protestant influence seeped across the Irish Sea from England into the northern provinces. The legacy today is a partitioned Ireland. Annual summer marches in Ulster commemorate Protestant victories of the past. Celebrations commonly leave a trail of barricades, bombs, and plastic bullets. The Orange Day Parade in July 1986 left 160 injured. It memorialized the day some 300 years ago when King William of Orange, who made Protestantism in Britain secure, defeated England’s last Catholic monarch, James II. United States: “[The] variety of sects with differing European backgrounds was a potent factor in bringing about religious freedom in America,” writes A. P. Stokes in Church and State in the United States. Colonial days saw the United States draped in Protestant colors. Calvinist values gave direction in religion, politics, and commerce. The fundamental belief was that each man stood directly accountable to his Creator without priestly mediation. This ideal bred a character intent on working out its own destiny, on reaping the rewards of its own labor. T. H. White recalls in his book In Search of History that at the turn of this century, 13 percent of the U.S. population was Catholic. This proportion rose to over 25 percent by 1960. Even so, few Catholics attained to the upper reaches of politics. White continues: “At the higher level of the Senate, where war and peace were made, where treaties and foreign policy were decided, where Supreme Court Justices were confirmed, Americans still preferred Protestants of the old tradition as custodians of national purpose.” The custom was broken when John F. Kennedy became the first Catholic president of the United States. For further examples from other countries, please see box on page 29. A Swamped Landscape Under Protestantism, theological debate swelled, and Bible translations and commentaries came to float on the tide of liberty and individual expression. However, as time passed, freedom dredged Bible criticism to the surface. New ideas were accommodated; self-determination became the order of the day. Progress was no longer the gentle lapping of waves but the thunderous roar of breakers. The powerful current of reform swept away the very foundations of traditional Christian doctrine. Modern alternatives like evolution, women’s liberation, and the ‘new morality’ have been washed up like driftwood, silent witnesses to the storm. Personalized religion in some Protestant lands left each individual stranded, a castaway on his own lonely island of faith. Terrain in Protestant areas is molded by a penchant for questioning established norms. People are raised on a credo of progress, freedom, and human rights. Max Weber, German sociologist and economist, published an essay in 1904 on Protestantism and capitalism. He stated that capitalism was not simply a result of the Reformation. But he did discover that in successful capitalist areas of mixed religious backgrounds, it was outstandingly the Protestants who were the owners, the leaders, the skilled, and the trained. According to Der Fischer Weltalmanach, of the 540 Nobel prizes awarded up until 1985, two thirds went to citizens from Protestant cultures. Inhabitants of Catholic environments won only 20 percent. Of the top 20 nations, in terms of gross national product per person, nine were Protestant, two Catholic. On the other hand, of the ten indebted developing countries listed, five were Catholic, none Protestant. German newsweekly Der Spiegel wrote that Calvinist ideals spurred the British on to becoming a major world power. From the 19th century, the growing political strength of the United States, Germany, and Great Britain became a force for social renewal. Equality of opportunity for all was emphasized. Eddies within the mainstream of the Reformation are regarded by some as being precursors of modern socialism. A political awareness of social responsibility paved the way for the welfare state. Especially in Protestant surroundings, civil authorities gradually took over control of the legal aspects of birth, death, marriage, divorce, and inheritance. The availability of divorce and legal abortion in Catholic countries is now often quite different from that in Protestant lands. Two bulwarks of Protestantism, the United States and Great Britain, grew together into the two-horned beast of Bible prophecy. (Revelation 13:11) A 20th-century giant of politics, the United Nations organization, first called the League of Nations, blossomed out of Protestant initiatives. The Flood Will Return A receding tide leaves a tidemark on the beach that reminds us of its pending return. Similarly, the Reformation of the 16th century left visible traces that we can see today. And there is strong evidence that we are standing on the threshold of an ultimate wave of religious change that will surpass all previous upheavals, sweep away false religion forever, and affect everyone alive. Will you survive it? Worldwide, there is a broad-based dissatisfaction with organized religion, among individuals and governments. Why the dissatisfaction? Religion often goes beyond its spiritual mandate, confusing the cloak of office with the cloth of ordination, the crown with the miter, the scepter with the cross. Some years ago the Observer Sunday newspaper raised the question as to whether politicians in Ireland were prepared to take over from the priests the running of the country. Former West German chancellor Helmut Schmidt commented on religious interference in politics by saying, “I do not believe that this can be permitted indefinitely.” And Le Figaro of Paris accused the church of “meddling in politics” so much that “it is in danger of seeing politics meddle with religion.” From India to Egypt to the United States, from Poland to Nicaragua, from Malaysia to Chile, the weary struggle between politics and religion goes on. This is no surprise, nothing new. Revelation chapter 17 describes the whole of false religion as a harlot, “Babylon the Great,” which commits fornication with the politicians of the earth. Verse 4 further pictures her as being “adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls.” The religious empire is insatiate, wallowing in luxury, oozing wealth. In the 16th century, the glittering coffers of the Catholic Church attracted longing glances. The same is true of the jewel-studded lucre of all religion in our 20th century. Governments already cast covetous eyes toward such opulence. Albania saw the more than 2,000 mosques, churches, and other religious buildings, and either secularized or razed them. The Sunday Times reported in 1984 that the government of Malta “began eyeing the church’s wealth,” cutting subsidies of church schools. Asked how the church should make up the loss, a government minister replied: “If need be, they can melt down their gold crosses and silver altars.” The Greek Orthodox Church has strongly fought legislation approved earlier this year by the Greek Parliament that would enable the government to take over huge church land holdings (about 10 percent of the area of the country). Worldwide, religion is a great disappointment. Instead of unifying, it splits asunder. One German daily newspaper noted the “rivalry between Catholics and Protestants that amounts to hatred.” The Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wrote that even ecumenical movements, designed to bridge the gap, started out from a position of “mutual distrust, irreconcilable enmity between Catholics and Protestants.” Elie Wiesel, 1986 Nobel Peace Prize winner, was quoted in another German daily as saying: “I often think we have failed. If someone had told us in 1945 that we would yet again see religiously motivated wars raging on practically every continent . . . we would not have believed it.” Religion that foments trouble, incites or condones war, is false religion. And the Creator decided long ago to do away with it. Chapter 17 of Revelation leaves no doubt as to the fate of all false religion. In verse 16 we read: “The ten horns [governmental powers within the United Nations organization] that you saw, and the wild beast [United Nations], these will hate the harlot [false religion] and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.” Where Do You Stand? Remarkable as it may seem, false religion has had its day. Its practices, customs, traditions, and privileges will soon disappear. That may seem as unlikely to you as the swamping of the Catholic Church did to people in the 16th century. But the Reformation waters were overwhelming. Church wealth went to the people, its power to the monarchs. Even so in our day, the nations will preside over the final dissolution of false religion. What does that mean for you personally? Examine the religious institution to which you belong. Does what it stands for agree with the Bible in every way? If not, then your organization is part of “Babylon the Great,” or the world empire of false religion. Follow the command found at Revelation 18:4, which is: “Get out of her, my people, . . . if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.” Remember, the tidal wave bringing conclusive destruction to false religion is on its way. It can be seen on the horizon. Where will you be standing when it brings thunderous destruction? In the valley of indifference? On the hill of some secular authority? Or on the mountain of Jehovah? There is only one safe place to be.
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#1. To: richard9151 (#0)
Do you have a particular reason for posting this Jehovah's Witness cult nonsense here???? Don't you know that this is a POLITICAL forum and if you are a Witness you really shouldn't be positng here under your own doctrines which FORBID any secular political activity. If you are NOT a Witness than I simply don't see any reason for spreading the doctrines of a TOTALITARIAN RELIGIOUS CULT on this Libertarian oriented forum.
Of all people to cry off the wall, it would have to be you whining about this Snake. Do what I do, don't generally read them and don't post to Richie's threads on this sect. I would say if Christine doesn't care that he's been doing this for quite awhile, you should shut your trap.
Gosh, maybe that's because of all of the contradictions in the Bible? All quotes directly from the King James bible. Old Testament contradictions ===== Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. As compared to... Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ===== Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. As compared to... Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And then... Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. ===== Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. As compared to... Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, ===== Proverbs 4:1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. As compared to... Ecclesiastes 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. ===== Isiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. As compared to... ===== Do you answer a fool in their folly? Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. And yet, on the very next line, it says... Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Riiight... no contradictions whatsoever. None. Nope. ===== New Testament contradictions ===== Who was Joseph? Matthew 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; As compared to... Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ===== John 10:27 (Jesus speaking) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: As compared to... John 14:28 (Jesus speaking) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (Note: These are both from the book of John. Jesus directly contradicts himself!) ===== Luke 22:35 And he (Jesus) said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. As compared to... Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. ===== John 5:30 (Jesus speaking) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. As compared to... John 8:18 (Jesus speaking) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Yes, even Jesus directly contradicts himself, in the same book written by the same disciple. Did anyone back then ever hear of proofreading? ===== There's many other contradictions as well, mostly between Old Testament and New Testament, but I've left those alone for now because they're just too easy. I wanted to focus on the ones that are the most directly contradictory and even the self-contradictory.
Oh what a DUFFLE-HEAD that Barack Obama is !!! Duffle-Head (As used in a Felix the Cat cartoon) A wicked person of limited intelegence but with pretenses of intelectual grandeur. Their only successful endevors are usually the invention of self punishment machines.
#2. To: Coral Snake (#1)
#3. To: richard9151 (#0)
Worldwide, religion is a great disappointment. Instead of unifying, it splits asunder.
Let's begin with the beginning: Genesis.
Did birds come from the water or from the ground?
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Which came first? Man or the animals?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
How many animals were on Noah's ark?
Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Is it a good thing to be "wise"?
Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Proverbs 4:3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
Proverbs 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Proverbs 4:6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Proverbs 4:8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.
Proverbs 4:9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Ecclesiastes 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Sins of the father?
Isiah 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ok, you may say, but that's the Old Testament. What about the NEW Testament?
Matthew 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Matthew 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Matthew 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Luke 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luke 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luke 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Is Jesus the equal of God?
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Should you wield a sword?
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Shall I bear witness of myself?
John5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
 | Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#4. To: All (#3)
P.S. I've taken everyone off of my bozo list who I had there, so I'll see what you all have to say in reply to this.
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#5. To: All (#4)
Gosh, this thread got real quiet all of a sudden...
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#6. To: Elliott Jackalope (#5)
Actually, the Bible, when it is closely followed, unifies. It only drives apart those who wish to see in it what they wish to see, rather than what is actually there. Gosh, this thread got real quiet all of a sudden... I would not worry about it, were I you. I simply do not have the time to mess around in the 4um much any more. And as to your contridictions, there are only contridictions to those with no understanding or ability to learn. For instance, I doubt very much that you have any idea as to what the water named actually is. And, no, I am not going to bother to enlighten you. Why? 2 Corinthians 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. If you read the above carefully, you can see yourself. And if that does not suffice, try this; 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. Now, if you are confused as to what is a torture stake, I posted the info before I did this, just for your edumacation. Speaking, also, as to why, when the Bible is changed, it drives people apart.
Gosh, maybe that's because of all of the contradictions in the Bible?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#7. To: richard9151 (#6)
See? I KNEW IT. You can't directly address a SINGLE contradiction I posted here, you just put up a bunch of weasel words and pretty phrases that say nothing to address my points. You should have been a lawyer, you'd be good at it. "Oh, the Bible is holy and perfect and there are no contradictions whatsoever". What a bunch of balderdash. The Bible DOES contradict itself, repeatedly, and many more times than just the few examples I posted here. It's not that I don't "have eyes to see", it's that YOU are willfully blind to obvious facts. "Truly, there are none so blind as those who will not see".
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#8. To: Elliott Jackalope (#7)
Did you really? Really, really.... 'know it'? Interesting. Indeed it is. But not of much matter. I am, finally, catching on, just as many of my friends, uh, the ones who actually read the Bible instead of just picking up so- called information about the Bible from various sources, .... just as many of my friends told me I would. It really would not matter what I told you. You simply would not care to understand. For that reason, as I told you above, anything that I told you would be veiled from you because of the hardness of your heart towards Jehovah God. As we are told in the Bible (HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!), in the book of James, it is your responsibility, FIRST, to move closer to God. Obviously, not something high on your list of 'things to do.' On the other hand, the last assembly I was at, when I was baptized, there were 684 attendees. I will guarrentee to you that there were at least 684 Bibles there as well, and all of them being used. I could easily discuss with each and every one of them the things you have posted and all of us would understand, even if it took some searching and talk to do so, which, by the way, since we are Bible students, is ALWAYS what we do. Here is the bottom line, for those with understanding and knowledge, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Period. And as to this, I absolutely agree; "Truly, there are none so blind as those who will not see".
See? I KNEW IT.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#9. To: richard9151 (#8)
You are so full of horse manure it's laughable. Sanctimonious, self-justified nonsense. You're a joke, richard9151, a really weak joke. You can't refute a single one of my arguments, you just say "Oh, it's because you don't belieeeeve". I don't have to "belieeeve" in "the religion of number theory" to understand that 2+2=4. You've been called on your nonsense, and you FAILED. So you just fall back on nonsensical babblings and ex cathedra statements. Typical of your ilk. Go find a bunch of retards to impress, those of us with functioning minds are quite tired of your pabulum.
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#10. To: Ferret Mike (#2)
I'm actually worried what his cult will do if they find he posts here. They DISFELLOWSHIP people who break their doctrines against political activity like posting to forums such as this one. This often takes the form of SHUNNING to the point that families have been broken up over one of the members being disfellowshipped even to children who have been disfellowshipped.
Oh what a DUFFLE-HEAD that Barack Obama is !!! Duffle-Head (As used in a Felix the Cat cartoon) A wicked person of limited intelegence but with pretenses of intelectual grandeur. Their only successful endevors are usually the invention of self punishment machines.
#11. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
Really? If you are so well informed, explain this term to me, and then we will have a basis to discuss your 'questions.' Of course, I understand that you do not have questions, just objections that you obtained from 'others,' cause you have done no actual study, nor reading, of the Bible. Only begotten son Now, the above is one of the most famous terms from the Bible, and it takes about one sentance to explain it. If you can do that, then perhaps there is some measure of understanding that can be built upon.
You are so full of horse manure it's laughable.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#12. To: Coral Snake (#10) (Edited)
You're funny!! But you really, really should not spread such lies. Some time, such things may return to bite you where it hurts.
I'm actually worried what his cult will do if they find he posts here.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#13. To: Coral Snake (#10) (Edited)
You are not worried about any shit like that snake. In any event that is his own personal concern, one which you do not have the tools to fathom.
#14. To: Elliott Jackalope, richard9151 (#9) (Edited)
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus were written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.
#15. To: Hagee (#14)
Absolutely not. But then, you would not accept such, so it really is not of much importance, is it.
All documents about Jesus were written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors,
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#16. To: Hagee (#14)
The following is another secular historical record of Jesus Christ from the Gentile historian Tacitus. One would think that this record is authentic for the simple reason of the disdain in which he refers to Christians and their beliefs. "Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on A CLASS HATED for THEIR ABOMINATIONS, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a MOST MISCHIEVOUS superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source OF THE EVIL, but even in Rome..." (Emphesis mine) The reality is that the apostles were all murdered, except possibly one - the Apostle John, for their conviction and belief because of their eye witness experiance of seeing Jesus Christ after His death burial and resurrection. This being the case, it would stand to reason that it is an accurate account. The disciples wouldn't suffer to have their heads chopped off or to be stoned to death for a fraud. Thats stupid! No, they knew Him personally and saw Him alive again after the third day.
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#17. To: Hagee (#14)
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned Here Josephus is talking about James and refers to him as the brother of Jesus. Some still debate whether or not “who was called the Christ” was originally in there, but the majority accept this passage as authentic since it is quoted by Origen not too long after it was written. It would make sense that Josephus wouldn’t name James as his father’s son (which is the norm) because his brother was so well known.
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#18. To: Hagee (#14)
Some people claim that Jesus Christ never existed. Allegedly the life of Jesus and the Gospel are merely myths fabricated by the Church. This claim rests mainly upon their belief that there is no historical record of Jesus. This lack of secular reports should not be too surprising for modern Christians. First, only a small fraction of the written records survived those twenty centuries. Secondly, there were few, if any, journalists in Palestine during the time of Jesus. Thirdly, the Romans saw the Jewish people as merely one of many ethnic groups that needed to be tolerated. The Romans held the Jewish people in low regard. Finally the Jewish leaders were also eager to forget about Jesus. Secular writers only took notice after Christianity became popular and began to disturb their lifestyle. Even though early secular reports on Jesus may have been rare, there are still a few surviving references to Him. Not too surprisingly, the earliest non- Christian reports were made by the Jews. Flavius Josephus, who lived until 98 A.D., was a romanized Jewish historian. He wrote books on Jewish history for the Roman people. In his book, Jewish Antiquities, he made references to Jesus. In one reference he wrote: About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2] Even though several different forms of this particular text have survived through the twenty centuries, they all agree with the above cited version. This version is considered to be the closest to the original - the least suspected of Christian text-tampering. Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ." It should be noted that the past tense in the clause, "Jesus who was called Christ," argues against Christian text-tampering since a Christian would prefer to write instead, "Jesus who is called Christ." Another Jewish source, the Talmud, makes several historical references to Jesus. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the Talmud is "the collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism." Although not explicitly referred to by name, later rabbis identify the person as Jesus. These references to Jesus are neither sympathetic to Him or His Church. Also these writings were preserved through the centuries by Jews, so Christians cannot be accused of tampering with the text. The Talmud makes note of Jesus' miracles. No attempt is made to deny them, but it ascribes them to magical arts from Egypt. Also His crucifixion is dated as "on the eve of the Feast of the Passover" in agreement with the Gospel (Luke 22:1ff; John 19:31ff). Similar again to the Gospel (Matt. 27:51), the Talmud records the earthquake and the tearing in two of the Temple curtain during the time of Jesus' death. Josephus in his book, The Jewish War, also confirmed these events. By the beginning of the 2nd century, Romans were writing about Christians and Jesus. Pliny the Younger, proconsul in Asia Minor, in 111 A.D. wrote to Emperor Trajan in a letter: ...it was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turns a form of words to Christ as a god; and that they bound themselves with an oath, not for any crime, but not to commit theft or robbery, or adultery, not to break their word, and not to deny a deposit when demanded. After this was done, their custom was to depart, and meet again to take food... [Pliny, Epistle 97] Special attention should be made to the phrase, "to Christ as a god," an early secular witness to the belief in Christ's divinity (John 20:28; Phil. 2:6). Also it is interesting to compare this passage with Acts 20:7-11, a biblical account of an early Christian Sunday celebration. Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church: The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44] Even with disdain for the Christian faith, Tacitus still treated the execution of Christ as historical fact, drawing connections to Roman events and leaders. (cf. Luke 3:1ff) Other secular witnesses to the historical Jesus include Suetonius in his biography of Claudius, Phlegan recording the eclipse of the sun during Jesus' death and even Celsus, a pagan philosopher. It must be kept in mind that most of these sources were not only secular but anti-Christian. These secular authors, including the Jewish writers, had no desire or intention to promote Christianity. They had no motivation to distort their reports in favor of Christianity. Pliny actually punished Christians for their faith. If Jesus were a myth or His execution a hoax, Tacitus would have reported it as such. He certainly would not have connected Jesus' execution to Roman leaders. These writers presented Jesus as a real historical person. Denying the reliability of these sources in connection to Jesus would cast serious suspicion on the rest of ancient history. Now these ancient secular writings do not prove that Jesus is the Son of God or even the Christ, but that is not the goal of this tract. These reports show that a virtuous person named Jesus did live in the early first century A.D. and authored a religious movement (which still exists today). This Person was at least called Christ - the Messiah. Christians in the first century also appeared to consider Him God. Finally these writings support other facts found in the Bible surrounding His life. The claim that Jesus never existed and His life is a myth compromises the reliability of ancient history.
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#19. To: richard9151 (#11) (Edited)
That's a lie. At one time I considered myself to be a "Christian" and DID study the Bible. This is what happens when you make assumptions. Oh, but that's right, I didn't study it as a Jehovah's Witness. Therefore I'm sure I didn't read it right. In fact, the endless internecine squabbles between different denominations was one of the biggest reasons why I ended up becoming agnostic. As far as your question goes, let's start with a question of my own: Tell me the meaning of the commonly used phrase "I hear what you are saying". Does this mean "I physically hear what you are saying" or does it mean "I understand what you are saying?" My point is that even in the scope of a single language in a single context (modern), there is a possibility of different interpretations. When we start talking about translations across multiple languages done in different eras, the potential for mis-interpretation becomes much greater. Now to answer your question. In this case, you are referring to the Greek word monogenes, which is an adjective comprised of two parts, the first part translates as "only" and the second part has multiple possible meanings, most commonly "offspring", "family", "kind".. and sometimes meaning "species" or "race". However, in the case of this particular phrase, the nearly universally accepted meaning of the phrase is "Only offspring"... not to be confused with the possible interpretation of "Only son" (thereby implying a possible daughter) but instead to be understood as saying "only offspring of any kind whatsoever". So, in a sentence, "only begotten son" means "only offspring of any kind", or "only son of God", as in "there are no other children of God of any kind". Since we're debating Bible accuracy, would you please be so kind as to explain the wildly different accounts of the lineage of Joseph as reported in Matthew versus Luke? It sure appears that at least one account, or perhaps both are inaccurate. And, they directly contradict each other. I'd really like to hear how you're going to explain that one.
Of course, I understand that you do not have questions, just objections that you obtained from 'others,' cause you have done no actual study, nor reading, of the Bible.
| Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. |
#20. To: Hagee (#14)
There are many, many other references as well. It is interesting, however, to see how such as yourself cling only to the info that you believe serves your purposes, instead of looking at all info. This is a rather through examination; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and details of his life. Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome (c. 100),[33] Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110),[34] and Justin Martyr.[35] Perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early references of Papias and Quadratus (d. 124), mostly reported by Eusebius in the fourth century, which both mention eyewitnesses of Jesus’ ministry and healings who were still alive in their own time (the late first century). Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (largely lost) commentaries, stated (according to Eusebius): …if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders — that is, what according to the elders Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.[36] Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (c. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#21. To: Hagee (#14)
Now, I will just let you in on another little secret; secular historians are very much in agreement that NO MAN WHO EVER LIVED had a greater impact on the world than did Jesus Christ. That is a pretty big statement to be made about a fictional creation. My! Did you really think that we are all dummies?!
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#22. To: Elliott Jackalope, Rotara (#19)
LOL! I stand properly chastised!! Very Good!! And through him all other things were created. From this, I take it that you are not.... sorry, WERE NOT, a trinitarian. Do you mind if I copy Rotara about your info? Quite complete! Oh, heck, I will do so anyway! would you please be so kind as to explain the wildly different accounts of the lineage of Joseph as reported in Matthew versus Luke? Well, to be honest, I have never studied it, but a couple of things occur to me. First off; Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. So the linage in Matthew is of Joseph, who is the ADOPTIVE father of Jesus Christ. Then; Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, [son] of He82; li, I would take this to be the true linage of Jesus Christ, said in such a manner as to not bring dishonor upon him or his mother. If you accept the divinity of Jesus, then of course Joseph could not be the real father; only the adoptive father. Anyway, I have not studied it or ever looked into it, but I will do more if you wish, unless this suffices. I do recall, from somewhere, that Joseph and Mary were related, so the similiar linages would certainly be appropriate.
the first part translates as "only" and the second part has multiple possible meanings, most commonly "offspring", "family", "kind".. and sometimes meaning "species" or "race". However, in the case of this particular phrase, the nearly universally accepted meaning of the phrase is "Only offspring"... not to be confused with the possible interpretation of "Only son" (thereby implying a possible daughter) but instead to be understood as saying "only offspring of any kind whatsoever". So, in a sentence, "only begotten son" means "only offspring of any kind", or "only son of God", as in "there are no other children of God of any kind".
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
#23. To: Elliott Jackalope (#19)
Oh, and by the way, neither did I. I have made the statement many times that I am a brand new Jehovah's Witness. But no one seems to pay attention! I withdrew from ALL OTHER denominations. Why? Because no one of the others agreed with what I read in the Bible. And I read real, real, real good! And I understand even better. And it was hard for me to accept that the Witnesses were actually saying EXACTLY what I understood from the Bible! But they were, and I finally just let go and started going to the meetings. Then, I started meeting the best people I have ever met in my life, AND ALL OF THEM KNEW MORE THAN I DID! That was amazing for me. I have never been in any kind of group before where EVERYONE there knew more than I did. Simply amazing. And of course, people talk about how we are so manipilated in our meetings! REALLY??? Want to know what we have been looking into over the last couple of weeks? Careful now, really weird stuff ahead! Why Keep Your Integrity? And; Will You Hold Fast to Your Integrity? Now, why would anyone study such nonsense, right?
Oh, but that's right, I didn't study it as a Jehovah's Witness.
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
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