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Title: Jesus' Teaching on Hell
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URL Source: http://gospelthemes.com/hell.htm
Published: Mar 13, 2009
Author: Samuel G. Dawson
Post Date: 2009-03-13 15:38:22 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1353
Comments: 83
Most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible. This study will cause you to re-examine current teaching on hell and urge you to further study on what happens to the wicked after death. "Don't you know that hell is just something the Catholic Church invented to scare people into obedience?" I was righteously indignant when, a number of years ago, a caller uttered these words on a call-in radio show I was conducting. Perturbed by his haphazard use of Scripture, I pointed out to him and the audience, that hell couldn't possibly be something invented by Catholic theologians because Jesus talked about it. I forcefully read some of the passages where Jesus did, and concluded that hell couldn't possibly be the invention of an apostate church. I now believe that hell is the invention of Roman Catholicism; and surprisingly, most, if not all, of our popular concepts of hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers like the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), author of Dante's Inferno. The English poet John Milton (1608-1674), author of Paradise Lost, set forth the same concepts in a fashion highly acceptable to the Roman Catholic faith. Yet none of our concepts of hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! We get indignant at the mention of purgatory-we know that's not in the Bible. We may also find that our popular concepts of hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism. The purpose of this study is to briefly analyze Jesus' teaching on hell (more correctly Gehenna, the Greek word for which hell is given), to see whether these popular concepts are grounded therein. A Plea for Open-Mindedness as We Begin If we strive for open-mindedness and truly want to know what the Bible teaches, the following quotation will help us in our search: We do not start our Christian lives by working out our faith for ourselves; it is mediated to us by Christian tradition, in the form of sermons, books and established patterns of church life and fellowship. We read our Bibles in the light of what we have learned from these sources; we approach Scripture with minds already formed by the mass of accepted opinions and viewpoints with which we have come into contact, in both the Church and the world.…It is easy to be unaware that it has happened; it is hard even to begin to realize how profoundly tradition in this sense has moulded us. But we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition, either secular or Christian, whether it be “catholic” tradition, or “critical” tradition, or “ecumenical” tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by Scriptures. (J. I. Packer, “Fundamentalism” and the Word of God [Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1958], pp. 69-70.) Of course, Packer just reminds us of Biblical injunctions to test everything proposed for our belief. For example, in II Cor. 13.5, Paul told the Corinthians: Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Likewise, in Eph. 5.8-10, Paul commanded the Ephesian Christians to be involved in such testing: …for ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord, walk as children of light…proving what is well-pleasing unto the Lord. In New Testament times, one was only a disciple of Christ when he was willing to examine himself, his beliefs, and everything proposed for his belief as a child of light. Nothing less is required now. Hell vs. Sheol and Hades We first begin by eliminating the problem the King James Version of the Bible introduced to this study by indiscriminately translating four different words in the Bible as hell: sheol, hades, tartarus, and gehenna. Sheol Used of Unseen In the Old Testament, the word for which hell is given in the King James Version is sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times. Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37.35, 42.38, 44.29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14.13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49.15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16.10 and Acts 2.24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead. Sheol Used of National Judgments Many times the Bible uses the word sheol of national judgments, i.e., the vanishing of a nation. In Isa. 14.13, 15, Isaiah said Babylon would go to sheol, and she vanished. In Ezek. 26.19-21, Tyre so vanished in sheol. Likewise, in the New Testament, in Mt. 11.23, 12.41, Lk. 10.15, and 11.29-32, Jesus said that Capernaum would so disappear. These nations and cities didn't go to a particular location, but they were going to disappear, and they did. They were destroyed. Thus, sheol is used commonly of national judgments in both the Old and New Testaments. Hades Used of Anything Unseen The New Testament equivalent of sheol is hades, which occurs only eleven times. Like its synonym sheol, the King James Version translates the word “hell.” However, the correct translation is hades, or the unseen. The Bible doesn't use hades exclusively for a place of punishment. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus there. Acts 2.27, 31 says Jesus went there. In I Cor. 15.15, Paul used the same word when he said, “O grave, where is thy victory?” In Rev. 1.18, Jesus said he had the controlling keys of death and hades, the unseen, and in Rev. 6.8, death and hades followed the pale horse. Finally, in Rev. 20.13, 14, death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and were then cast into the lake of fire. These verses illustrate that hades refers to anything that is unseen. Hades Used of National Judgment Like its companion word in the Old Testament, hades was also plainly used of national judgments in the New Testament. In Mt. 11.23 and Lk. 10.15, Jesus said Capernaum would go down into hades, i.e., it was going to vanish. In Mt. 12.41 and Lk. 11.29-32, Jesus said his generation of Jews was going to fall. About hades in Greek mythology, Edward Fudge said: In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld, then the name of the nether world itself. Charon ferried the souls of the dead across the rivers Styx or Acheron into this abode, where the watchdog Cerberus guarded the gate so none might escape. The pagan myth contained all the elements for medieval eschatology: there was the pleasant Elyusium, the gloomy and miserable Tartarus, and even the Plains of Asphodel, where ghosts could wander who were suited for neither of the above...The word hades came into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew sheol, an Old Testament concept vastly different from the pagan Greek notions just outlined. Sheol, too, received all the dead...but the Old Testament has no specific division there involving either punishment or reward. (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 205.) We need to make sure that our ideas concerning hades come from the Bible and not Greek mythology. We have no problem using sheol the way the Old Testament used it, or hades, as the New Testament used it. Both refer to the dead who are unseen, and to national judgments. Tartarus Is Also Translated Hell in the King James Version In II Pet. 2.4, we read: For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;... The Greek word translated “pits of darkness” here, the only time it's used in the Bible, is tartarus. Again, the KJV gave us hell for free, there being no reason to translate it so. The passages speak of angels that were being punished when II Peter was written, to show that God knew how to treat disobedience among angels. It says nothing about fire, torment, pain, punishment of anyone else, or that it will last forever. It simply doesn't pertain to our subject. The Popular Concept of Hell Unknown to the Old Testament Before we move to the gospel's teaching on hell, we want to think further concerning that the word gehenna (popularly mistranslated hell, as we'll see) didn't occur in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint. Let's take a few paragraphs to let the significance of that fact soak in. In previous editions of this material, I merely remarked that prominent Old Testament characters like David and Abraham never heard the term or its equivalent. They were never threatened with eternal torment in hell or heard anything like our popular concept now. However, Gehenna's absence in the Old Testament is a much more serious omission than that. (The concepts in this section are suggested by Thomas B. Thayer in his 1855 Edition of Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment.) Before the Mosaic Law Adam and Eve in the Garden When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he never mentioned the concept of eternal torment to them. Read for yourself-it's just not there. Don't you think it strange that as human history began on this planet, while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that he didn't give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment, if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity? Most of us think eternal torment will engulf the vast majority of mankind, nearly all of Adam and Eve's descendents, yet here's a father, God, who didn't warn his children of the potential of what might befall them. What would you think of a father who told his young child not to ride his bike in the street, and if he did, he would get a spanking. Suppose he also planned to roast him over a roaring fire for fifty years? After he spanked him, would you think him a just father for not warning his child? Can you think of an apology or a defense for him? Yet to Adam and Eve, the father of all mankind failed to mention a much greater punishment than the death they would die the day they ate of the forbidden tree. Was this just a slip of the mind on God's part, to not mention at all the interminable terrible woes that lay ahead for the vast majority of their descendants? No, God announced to them a tangible present punishment the very day they committed the sin: “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” They found that the wages of sin was death. Cain and Abel The same is true with Cain and Abel, a case of murder of a brother. Surely, we would think that God might roll out the threat of eternal torment that Cain was to receive as a warning to all future generations. In the whole account, there's not a hint, not a single word on the subject. Instead, Cain is told, “And now art thou cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.” Again, Cain received an immediate, tangible physical punishment administered, with absolutely no warning of future eternal torment. Like Adam, Cain heard none of the dire warnings preached from pulpits of the fiery wrath of God, tormenting his soul throughout eternity. Now, if Cain were to receive such punishment from God without warning, would God be a just lawgiver and judge to impose additional, infinitely greater punishment with no word of caution whatsoever? In Gen. 4.15, God said, “Therefore, whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven-fold.” If, with no warning, Cain was going to receive eternal fiery torment, would those who killed him receive seven times endless fiery torment? I'm not making light of endless torment, I'm just pointing out that it's remarkable that God hadn't said a word about it thus far in the Bible story. Noah and the Flood When we come to Noah and the flood, God noted that “every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,” and that “the earth was filled with violence, and all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.” If not before, wouldn't this be the ideal time to reveal eternal torment ahead for nearly all inhabitants of the earth? If any circumstances warranted such punishment, this would be the time, would it not? However, Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” didn't threaten endless punishment to evildoers. If warnings of such punishment serve to turn man aside from his evil way, surely this would have been the time to have revealed it, but there's nary a whisper of it. Instead, they were destroyed by the flood, a physical, tangible punishment for their sin, with absolutely no warning of endless torment. Nor was there such a warning when mankind inhabited the earth again after the flood. One word from God might have set the world on an entirely different course. Surprisingly no such word was given. Sodom and Gomorrah We could go on with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the physical destruction of the cities and their inhabitants, with not even a rumor of endless future torment that we probably think they unknowingly faced. What would we think if our government passed a new law with a huge fine as the punishment, but when a guilty party was found, he paid the fine, but also had to serve endless torment that the citizens had no warning of? What kind of judge explains the law and known penalty, while carefully concealing a much more awful penalty? What would the penalty of a few thousand dollars matter in a case where he was also going to be tormented horribly and endlessly? Yet the popular concept is that the Sodomites were sent into such a judgment. We could go through the accounts of the builders of the tower of Babel, the destruction of Pharoah and his armies, and Lot's wife, yet we would notice the same thing. All these received a temporal physical punishment, with no mention of an infinitely greater torturous punishment awaiting them in the future. Was this teaching delibrately excluded from the record, or did it never belong? We know that it isn't there. Neither the word gehenna nor the concept of endless torment was given in the millennia before the giving of the Law of Moses. From the creation to Mt. Sinai, there was simply no insinuation of it in the entirety of human history up to that time. By the conclusion of this study, we'll see that God never had a plan of inflicting such dreadful torment on the people of his own creation. Under the Mosaic Law Most of us are familiar with the blessings and cursings Moses pronounced upon the Israelites in Deuteronomy 28-30 before they entered the promised land. If the Jews were disobedient to God, he promised them every conceivable punishment: he would curse their children, their crops, their flocks, their health, the health of their children, the welfare of the nation, etc. He foretold that they would even go into captivity, and would have such horrible temporal physical judgments to drive them to eat their own children. Among such an extensive list of punishments that would come upon his disobedient people, God uttered not even a whisper of endless torment upon them in any case of rebellion. All these physical, temporal judgments would take place in this life. We could multiply such cases of temporal punishments for rebellion, corruption, and idolatry under Moses. He spelled them out in minute detail. The writer of Hebrews (in 2.2) said: “...the word spoken through angels (the Mosaic Law) proved stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward...” As we've seen, the punishment was physical and temporal with no promise of endless torment whatsoever. Endless torment was simply unknown under the Law. The question now arises, did every transgressor and disobedient Jew receive just punishment, or not? If they did, will their punishment continue to be just if in the future, they will also receive endless torment in “hell” that they were never told of and knew nothing of? If so, will eternal torment on top of their just physical temporal punishment still be just? It cannot be, can it? How can adding infinite torture in the future that they knew nothing of to a just punishment they received in the past under the Old Testament still be just? In summary, the popular concept of hell is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. The word gehenna is not even contained in the Greek Old Testament, endless torment is nowhere to be found in its pages. Where Did the Concept of Endless Torment Originate? As we've seen, it most certainly did not originate in the Old Testament, either before or during the Mosaic Law. A great deal of evidence (more than we'll give here) suggests that it originated in Egypt, and the concept was widespread in the religious world. Augustine, commenting on the purpose of such doctrines, said: This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society. (Augustine, City of God, Book IV, p. 32, cited by Thayer, Origin & History, p. 37.) Contriving doctrines to control people? Who would have believed it? Well, the Greek world did, the Roman world did, and evidently between the testaments, the Jews got involved, as well, as the concept of endless torment began appearing in the apocryphal books written by Egyptian Jews. Thayer wrote further: Polybius, the historian, says: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions. B. vi 56. Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace. Hist., I 19. Strabo, the geographer, says: "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue-but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Geog., B., I Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean, after stating that the doctrine of rewards and punishments after death is necessary to society, proceeds as follows: "For as we sometimes cure the body with unwholesome remedies, when such as are most wholesome produce no effect, so we restrain those minds with false relations, which will not be persuaded by the truth. There is a necessity, therefore, of instilling the dread of those foreign torments: as that the soul changes its habitation; that the coward is ignominiously thrust into the body of a woman; the murderer imprisoned within the form of a savage beast; the vain and inconstant changed into birds, and the slothful and ignorant into fishes." Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments. And Strabo says that "Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell" (Hades). And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments. Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them "fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses." Seneca says: "Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac fabulis). Aristotle. "It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state." Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. , (Origin & History, 41-43.) Mosheim, in his legendary Church History, described the permeation among the Jews of these fables during the period between the testaments: Errors of a very pernicious kind, had infested the whole body of the people (the Jews--SGD). There prevailed among them several absurd and superstitious notions concerning the divine nature, invisible powers, magic, &c., which they had partly brought with them from the Babylonian captivity, and partly derived from the Egyptians, Syrians, and Arabians who lived in their neighborhood. The ancestors of those Jews who lived in the time of our Savior had brought from Chaldaea and the neighboring countries many extravagant and idle fancies which were utterly unknown to the original founders of the nation. The conquest of Asia by Alexander the Great was also an event from which we may date a new accession of errors to the Jewish system, since, in consequence of that revolution, the manners and opinions of the Greeks began to spread among the Jews. Beside this, in their voyages to Egypt and Phoenicia, they brought home, not only the wealth of these corrupt and superstitious nations, but also their pernicious errors and idle fables, which were imperceptibly blended with their own religious doctrines. (Mosheim's Church History, century I pt. I chap. ii.) A similar statement is made in an old Encyclopedia Americana, cited by Thayer: The Hebrews received their doctrine of demons from two sources. At the time of the Babylonish captivity, they derived it from the source of the Chaldaic-Persian magic; and afterward, during the Greek supremacy in Egypt, they were in close intercourse with these foreigners, particularly in Alexandria, and added to the magician notions those borrowed from this Egyptic-Grecian source. And this connection and mixture are seen chiefly in the New Testament. It was impossible to prevent the intermingling of Greek speculations. The voice of the prophets was silent. Study and inquiry had commenced. The popular belief and philosophy separated; and even the philosophers divided themselves into several sects, Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes; and Platonic and Pythagorean notions, intermingled with Oriental doctrines, had already unfolded the germ of the Hellenistic and cabalistic philosophy. This was the state of things when Christ appeared. (Encyclopedia Americana, art. "Demon, " cited by Thayer (Origin & History, p. 120). Note that Luke wrote in Ac. 7.22 that “Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians,” yet knowing the Egyptian concepts, he gave not a whiff of endless torment in any of his writings. Thus, we see that the concept of endless torment afterlife was not found in the Old Testament. It evidently crept in among some Jews during the period between the testaments. Thayer summarizes the intertestamental period on this subject in the following words: The truth is, that in the four hundred years of their intercourse with the heathen, during which they were without any divine teacher of message, Pagan philosophy and superstition had, so far as regarded the future state, completely pushed aside the Law of Moses and the Scriptures of the Old Testament, and set up in place of them their own extavagant inventions and fables respecting the invisible world. (Ibid., p. 53) If you have further interest, there is a lot more information at the site. A LOT more information. This is more complete that what I have posted before, but is basically the same information; hell is a pagan concept grafted onto Christianity. It ia a big part of the aposty of Christianity, along with the immortal soul, trinity, purgatory, 'going to heaven,' and the like.
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#4. To: Diana (#1)
YEP. Shreveport, Louisiana. Its diplomatic office is in Benton Arkansas.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Law Enforcement Against Prohibition You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom.~~William Wallace ALAS, BABYLON
Been there, done that. Believe that's the town marker near the Damn Site Inn. Real cozy place for a drink and a chat with the barkeep on a frozen Michigan afternoon.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. my husband believes the same and i've heard alex jones say that numerous times. well, i much prefer this than an eternal burn in a lake of fire.
Oh dear. Where to start... How about the concept of Purgatory? Its a logical requirement. Nothing unclean can enter heaven - sin makes one unclean - believers are promised eternal life. How do you reconcile it? Logically, to make it all fit, the "stain" must be removed. Thus, purgatory is a cleansing process. As for Hell, these guys really need to read the Lost Gospels - and I mean the books that didn't make it into the Bible. The Apocalypse of Peter would be a good place to start. 2nd Century. That'll tell you where 'fire and brimstone' really came from. Way too many people are totally ignorant of their own religion and where things came from. Catholic Church? Bah, the 'fire and brimstone' vision of Hell predates the formalizing of Biblical canon.
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. Oh dear... Where to start.. Ever hear of the ransom scariface of Jesus Christ? Which was specifically to make us 'clean' of sin and acceptable to Jehovah God as long as we did our best to follow the words of Jesus Christ, which are not his words but the Words of His Father? Ever hear anything about that?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
I think I've heard of that. I also heard it was chronicled in this book called The Bible which I've also read. The same book also tells me the same stuff that I put in my post. So...question: Why does the book tell me things different from what the author of this article does? Could it be that the author is wrong? That he didn't read? That he didn't use the brain God gave him to connect the dots? Could possibly be. He did show an amazing lack of historical understanding because the non-canonical Gospels show the common knowledge of the 2nd Century. Oddly enough, wouldn't one think that people in the 2nd Century might have a closer understanding than people in the 21st? I think so. It just makes sense. But then again, with religion, "making sense" isn't what it is all about. Its about "being right" and ignoring that which disagrees with you. I'll take history over someone else's opinion, thanks.
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. Really? Including over the Popes? I have posted the information a couple of times on how the teaching of the Catholic Church has changed over the last 6-8 years, and how the Pope has openly stated that hell is not a place of eternal torment. Amazing, is it not, that an inerrent church changes an 1800 year old teaching..... just like that. Must be hard to accept. Sorry about that. I mean, after all, why would someone not believe that a God, who is love and who has perfect justice, would not torture someone for a trillion years or so, right?
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.
Then you don't know anything about Hell. This isn't even close. And richard is full of it. This artilce is full of it. Garbage.
No such thing.
Who said they were inerrant as you use the term? Certainly not they.
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. How do you know? Are you God?
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. No such thing. Once again we see one little example of why the whole Christianity thing is complete bullshit. Catholics say there is a Purgatory and Protestants says there isn't. Catholics have hundreds, if not thousands of books written on the biblical justification for Purgatory, such as Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14, James 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1 Jn 5:16-17, James 1:14-15, 2 Sam 12:13-14, Mt 5:26, Mt 12:32, Mt 12:36, 2 Mace 12:44-46, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6, 2 Tim 1L16-18, 1 Cor 15:29-30, while Prostestants reject these same passages and have hundreds, if not thousands of books claiming these same passages do not mean what the Catholics say they mean, but mean something else completely. I won't bother to list the passages protestants use to prove Purgatory is wrong because with Protestants, it not only depends on what denomination you're speaking about, but also the particular person you are speaking with. While Catholics have a biblical doctrine, individual Protestants, regardless of denomination, can warp the Bible to mean literally anything they want it to mean, therefore it's not as easy to pin down. So who is correct? No one knows. The Catholics can't prove they are right and the Protestants can't prove they are right. Yet both sides try to make everyone else believe that if they don't follow their brand of lunacy then they are going to rot in hell. Actually, "both sides" is not the correct term because there are literally more than 37000 denominations of "Christianity." The chances of getting the correct 1 of 37000+ denominations is pretty small so why bother? You can either live like a hedonist and have a great time on earth so that you can burn in hell forever after you die, or you can live a pious life on earth following the precepts of your denomination only to be told, "oops, wrong choice" and be rewarded with the same eternal damnation as the hedonist, your whole life a waste. So the all-knowing God so loved the world that he will happily torment the inhabitants of that world for eternity for the crime of not picking the correct denomination. For the different sides in this fight to be correct, God would have to be like the demonic neighbor kid on Toy Story who liked to burn ants with a magnifying glass, torture animals and blow up his toys with firecrackers. I don't believe any of this garbage and laugh at you that spend so much time arguing back and forth over it. What's even funnier is that everyone of you argue as if you have some type of authority; as if you speak on behalf of God. LOL! Yet all you have is your opinions. You have no more authority than the person you are arguing with! LOL! To us spectators, its like watching the dumbasses on TV arguing about, "Tastes Great, Less Filling!" LOL!
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
You're arguing about the various religious practices and beliefs, created by MAN. And, whenever you have any group of men together, you will never find 100% agreement on anything. As far as Christianity, itself, if the religions of the world which claim to be Christian, actually followed what is in the Holy Scriptures, rather than religious dogma and human created traditions, you would see agreements rise and divisions reduced. Finally, since the Holy Scriptures (the books found in the King James Version, for example, as opposed to the "Jehovah Witnesses' Bible" or the "Catholic Bible")....not one book was ever originally written in English, so there have been arguments since their translation from Aramaic, Latin, Greek, etc., as to the most proper or exact meaning, as the translators were not only dealing with translation of just the words, but the context in which particular words would make the most sense in English (and English culture and understanding).
I'm not arguing about anything. I'm making a point about those that are arguing. As far as Christianity, itself, if the religions of the world which claim to be Christian, actually followed what is in the Holy Scriptures, rather than religious dogma and human created traditions, you would see agreements rise and divisions reduced. And if you asked an average pious, pro-war Southern Baptist and an average anti- war Quaker, each would swear upon their Bible that they are following the "Holy Scripture." Finally, since the Holy Scriptures (the books found in the King James Version, for example, as opposed to the "Jehovah Witnesses' Bible" or the "Catholic Bible")... OK, so yo are obviously a Protestant of some sort. not one book was ever originally written in English, so there have been arguments since their translation from Aramaic, Latin, Greek, etc., as to the most proper or exact meaning, as the translators were not only dealing with translation of just the words, but the context in which particular words would make the most sense in English (and English culture and understanding). Well then I guess the Orthodox must be the "one true" denomination then because they've used the Greek Septuaint since the very beginning of their creation and have never had to worry about English translations.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
Yes...these arguments come from religious traditions and dogma, not what is actually found in the Bible. Those traditions and dogmas were manufactured by men, not God. And if you asked an average pious, pro-war Southern Baptist and an average anti- war Quaker, each would swear upon their Bible that they are following the "Holy Scripture." Actually, both of those religions read from the same scriptures, but they have espoused different dogmas...based upon their religious practices and traditions. Finally, since the Holy Scriptures (the books found in the King James Version, for example, as opposed to the "Jehovah Witnesses' Bible" or the "Catholic Bible")... OK, so yo are obviously a Protestant of some sort. Jehovah Witnesses have severely changed the text of the original Scriptures, as have the Catholics, which have included books not found in the King James Version (or the New American Standard, or the Amplified, or the Ryrie Study Bible, or the New International Version, etc., etc., etc.). The books found to be added into the Catholic Bible promote the Catholic "version" of Christianity; the severe alterations found in the Jehovah's Witness bible promote the Jehovah Witnesses' version of Christianity...that being Christ is not God, for example. Well then I guess the Orthodox must be the "one true" denomination then because they've used the Greek Septuaint since the very beginning of their creation and have never had to worry about English translations. My point was that virtually no English speaker can read, for themselves, text not in English. Therefore, a translation was necessary. But that there is dispute concerning the translation of the Holy Scriptures is not the fault of God, nor does it make the Holy Scriptures faulty, rather, it is the fault of the many men who translated. "Fault" here is not to condemn them, just to point out their ability is limited to the text and their own understandings, as well as their own cultural backgrounds, but this is no way means the Holy Scripture itself is defective.
But of course, your particular brand of Christianity does not have this problem right? ...as have the Catholics, which have included books not found in the King James Version (or the New American Standard, or the Amplified, or the Ryrie Study Bible, or the New International Version, etc., etc., etc.). The books found to be added into the Catholic Bible promote the Catholic "version" of Christianity; the severe alterations found in the Jehovah's Witness bible promote the Jehovah Witnesses' version of Christianity...that being Christ is not God, for example. That is a very distorted twist on history. Don't mistake my opinions about Christianity to mean that I am ignorant about Christianity. The early church used the Septuagint old testament and translated it from that document into Syriac, Coptic, Ge'ez and Latin. In AD 382, at the Council of Rome, "St." Jerome translated the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin and produced the Vulgate. This was used in the western Latin speaking countries, while in the eastern, Greek speaking countries, the Septuagint continued to be used. Both the Septuagint and the Vulgate contain the books you claim were added by Catholics to promote "their version" of Christianty. This is quite unlikly though because at the time of the the early church, they were being persecuted by the Roman Empire and had more important things to worry about (like staying alive) than promoting "their version" of Christianity. On top of that, there was only one church then, not 37000+. Also, the Greek Septuagint was written in the 3rd to 2nd centuries BC, while the Masoretic Text, which is what the KJV OT was translated from, was not written until between the 7th-10th centuries AD. Last but not least, the KJV was not published until 1611. The Catholics and Orthodox had been using their bible more than a millenia before Protestantism was invented by Luther. It was the writers of the KJV who changed the Bible, not the Catholics oir the Orthodox. So it's not that the Catholics added anything to promote "their version" of Christianty, it's that Protestants left out those books because it hurt "their version."
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
I have no brand of Christianity. I belong to and am a member of no church. I was baptized and raised Catholic and have learned enough about its religion to know that it is the THE TRUE CHURCH. A church is not a building, it is the born again believers who are "the church." Catholicism does not adhere to God's laws, nor to Christ's commands. Its traditions conflict with Christ's teachings and what is plainly read in the Holy Scripture. You are trying to sell Catholicism....sorry, that's not going to work here; it is full of men's traditions which flagrantly violate God's ordinances in several ways, one being the praying to idols, another having a priest forgive your sins. Christ is the Great High Priest; it is He who intercedes for the believers, and He never said to go to a priest to confess. I use the King James Version because it is most used by many different Christian religions and does not attempt to instill into dogmas from a particular religion, such as the Catholics did at the Council of Rome, for instance, by St. Jerome....
In other words, just another kook with an opinion. Gotcha. You are trying to sell Catholicism....sorry, that's not going to work here LOL! You try to blow smoke up my ass and get caught and now all of a sudden I'm trying to sell Catholicism? LOL! Not hardly. I gave you a history lesson and nothing more. That's far from "trying to sell Catholicism." I'm not a Christian - Catholic or otherwise. My stance for as long as I've been on this site is that it's all bullshit. You might want to reread my very first post. If I'm going to be tormented in eternal hell for not properly interpreting the bible, then I'm not going to bother trying. I will live my life on MY terms, not on the terms of some invisible sky-God who would allow his words to be twisted in such a way and still hold people accountable for their ignorance.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
I'm a happy "kook" for Christ, one who has been studying the Bible for over 30 years and still learning every day. Thanks. You try to blow smoke up my ass and get caught and now all of a sudden I'm trying to sell Catholicism? It certainly appears to me you were defending the viewpoint of the Catholic church and their version of the Holy Scripture, which greatly differs from those used by all other Christian churches. If that was not your intent, please explain. at the time of the the early church, they were being persecuted by the Roman Empire and had more important things to worry about (like staying alive) than promoting "their version" of Christianity. On top of that, there was only one church then, not 37000+. Not so. There were many factions (or denominations, if you will) of "Christians", even while the Apostle Paul was living, otherwise he would not have written in 1 Corinthians 1: Furthermore, among Christians, most especially between the born again Jews and the born again Gentiles (non-Jews), there arose arguments and debates and factions, as well, between them over such things as eating meat, observing holy days, and drinking wine (Romans 14:2-3; 5, 21). Concerning that, Paul said, for example "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath." Colossians 2:16 and "Why do you submit to regulations, 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines?" Colossians 2:21 Clearly, these arguments have been around since the inception of Christianity. If I'm going to be tormented in eternal hell for not properly interpreting the bible You're not. You will only get to heaven, however, if you do the following: Acts 16:25-33, the jailer anxiously asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved"? Paul answered "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved ..." verse 31".
...and therein is the crux of the matter. When one of these "I know everything" types comes back from death to speak authoritatively on the topic, I'll listen. Until then, I'm going to have fun here.
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. I am defending absolutely nothing. You made a completely false historical statement: ...have severely changed the text of the original Scriptures, as have the Catholics, which have included books not found in the King James Version (or the New American Standard, or the Amplified, or the Ryrie Study Bible, or the New International Version, etc., etc., etc.). The books found to be added into the Catholic Bible promote the Catholic "version" of Christianity; This is complete nonsense and does not resemble historical reality and you don't have to be a Catholic or a Christian to know this, just a student of history. You try and make it appear as if the KJV is the original scripture and that the Catholics and Orthodox changed it when the KJV wasn't published until 1611 and used the Masoretic OT text that was centuries older than the Septuagint OT which forms the OT of the Catholic, Orthodox, and the Oriental Churches, all of which were around for 1600 years before the KJV was written. It is a fact admitted by all mainstream theologians, even Protestant, that the early church used the Septuagint OT. You might want to brush up on your history there poindextor. While you're at it, you might want to brush up on the history of the politics of the Jews and their attitude towards Christianity and how it came to play into the rewriting of the OT. As for the rest of your post, I could give a damn about your disagreement with Catholic doctrine. I'm not here to defend them or their beliefs. They can no more prove what they believe than you can prove what you believe. And throwing around bible verses proves nothing because you all do that.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
That's just it. If God was going to hold people accountable for what's in the Bible, then he would not allow there to be 37000+ different denominations and multiple millions of interpretations. He would appear every couple of generations and set things straight, knowing full well that over time we'd fuck things up. It's our nature and as the all knowing God he would already know this. The fact that he hasn't done this tells me its either bullshit or the bible isn't as important as Christians say it is. Oh well. Play time's over. Time to hit the hay. Good night.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
First of all, I'm pretty certain that everyone is aware that the King James Version wasn't written until 1611. Why can't you give people some credit. Good grief. I'm also pretty certain that everyone realizes that Bibles, no matter the version, were not placed into the hands of the common people until well after there was a printing press in the mid 1400's. Or do you think that should be pointed out so that you don't misattribute that "idea" later to me, also? So that blows your ridiculous claim out of the water that I'm "trying to make it appear" that illiterate peasants had a bible of ANY version, much less other books, prior to a printing press or general ability to read....foflol I'm also pretty certain that most people are aware of Luther's 95 theses being nailed to the church door in Wittenberg in 1517. Ergo...there would be a split of the Catholic church thereafter. You know, Lutherans after Luther....sheesh Therefore, once again I will repeat: the King James Version of which I referred as an example (I referred to other versions as well, or do you fail to recall my stating the Amplified, the New American Standard, the New International? Why, yes, I thought you had...conveniently), is referred to only because it CONTAINS the same books from which all the Christian religions/denominations now read (EXCEPT CATHOLICS). To say this slowly: I refer to it because ALL PEOPLE reading this will understand the books to which I refer. As to why the Catholic bible is different from all the other Christian religions, the Protestants believe those books which are omitted are FALSE; the Catholics do not. This was a result of the Reformation, of which Martin Luther was greatly responsible. BTW, the Catholic church was not the "original" church. Pray tell where you came up with that idea? The letters in the New Testament, by Paul, for example, are to numerous churches (not Catholic). In the New Testament, there for example, Churches mentioned were at Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica, and Galatia. Where do you get the idea that they are "catholic" churches? They refer to themselves only as Christians, believers, followers of Christ, not "Catholics". As for the rest of your post, I could give a damn about your disagreement with Catholic doctrine. I'm not here to defend them or their beliefs. They can no more prove what they believe than you can prove what you believe. And throwing around bible verses proves nothing because you all do that. The Bible is my authority; in this way, you cannot rightly say that I am pulling a rabbit out of my hat and claiming it is God's Word. Any person would and should demand that a Christian back up their claims with Scripture versus, just like a scientist would demand to have references to back up any kind of scientific report. As to what you believe personally, I'm not here to argue faith with you. You either have it or you don't. You are either saved or you are not. I did my job with you in telling you how to become saved. The rest is on you and between you and God. As for that, all I have to say is "Peace be unto you."
The value of the Bible is what you get out of it. The problem is that most people misinterpret Paul and don't just take him at face value when he says it is "useful" and gives a list of things it is useful for. Nowhere did Paul say that Scripture was the only thing out there and nowhere does Paul say that it is a rulebook. As our friend Richard likes to complain, "That's a man-made tradition" - but it is one he follows, which is why I like him so much. He has become what he has beheld and is content he has done right. I wish these people would learn about their own religion - the history, the stuff that didn't make it into the Bible, all of that. Then practice the Golden Rule. If they want to bash someone, they open the door to be bashed. It works perfectly in reverse.
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. There are some on this site who don't comprehend that and refuse to.
Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Atlas is now shrugging. Catholics say there is a Purgatory and Protestants says there isn't. Catholics have hundreds, if not thousands of books written on the biblical justification for Purgatory, such as Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14, James 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1 Jn 5:16-17, James 1:14-15, 2 Sam 12:13-14, Mt 5:26, Mt 12:32, Mt 12:36, 2 Mace 12:44-46, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6, 2 Tim 1L16-18, 1 Cor 15:29-30, while Prostestants reject these same passages It appears to me it is you who have a warped viewpoint of things concerning Protestants, as well as the Scriptures. You say there is biblical justification for Purgatory, such as the Scripture you cite above. The majority of what you posted is laughable in claiming it states anything regarding any kind of "evidence" on pergatory, as, for most cases, it is not even alluded to. Context really is EVERYTHING. I post the following, not for your benefit, as it appears to me you are invested in your disbelief. It is posted for those who may be led astray by your false beliefs, claims and assertions concerning your statements. Your quoted passasge is placed in bold within context of the Scriptures where it is found. People can decide for themselves whether or not the majority of verses you posted, even on its surface, have anything at all to do "biblical justification for pergatory." As an aside, you quote from the book of James. James, written by James, the brother of Jesus, was a book directly written to believers in Christ, those whose eternal salvation was already assured. It was written to exhort and commend those who were already assured of their salvation, to believers in Christians, those who are saved, to stand out as "different" from those who do not believe. It's an instruction manual of "good works" so that Christians can understand how to show themselves to be believers in a world of unbelievers. These good works aren't "unto salvation,"; rather its purpose serves as an identifying "marker" for the world, much as a small light in a dark room illuminates and helps others see...Christians are to be a light, helping the lost find the Way. If Christians continue to act and behave as when they were not, their changed lives would not be a draw to others to find out why there is a change and their personal lives would not be a witness for Christ's love and power. Mt 5:48, [Matthew 5:] Heb 12:14, [Hebrews 12:] 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? James 3:2, Rev 21:27, [Revelation 21:] 1 Jn 5:16-17, [1 John 5:] James 1:14-15, 12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 2 Sam 12:13-14, [2 Samuel 12:] Note: In this passage of the Old Testament Scriptures, King David had done exceedingly wrong; the prophet Nathan was sent unto him by a just God to convict his heart, expose His knowledge of the wrong doing, and to tell David of God's impending judgment against him, in part, concerning his child which was conceived through David's adultery: Mt 5:26, [Matthew 5:] Mt 12:32, Mt 12:36, [Matthew 12:] Note: These statements were made by Christ to the Pharicees who claimed that Jesus, who is God, was casting out demons in the name of a demon. This was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as they claimed that Christ's powers come from Satan, thereby calling the Holy Spirit a demonic spirit. 2 Mace 12:44-46, [2 Macabees - not found in Bible, only in Catholic Bible--not posted here] 1 Cor 3:15, [1 Corinthians 3] 1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6, [1 Peter, chapters 3 and 4] 1 Peter 3: 1 Peter 4: 2 Tim 1:16-18, [2 Timothy 1:] 1 Cor 15:29-30 [1 Corinthians 15:] Note: This section is about the "parade" of the resurrection as well as the "program and pattern of resurrection". Resurrection refers only to the body (v. 44). In Greek, it is anastasis nekron, standing up of the body. The soul cannot stand up. The first heresy in the church was the denial of bodily resurrection. In Paul’s day, there were three philosophies: Stoicism — soul merged into Deity at death; destruction of personality.
lol!
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Whether you meant to or not, you made it appear that you believed the Protestant Bible came first and that it was the Catholics that changed it. So I corrected your error. Therefore, once again I will repeat: the King James Version of which I referred as an example (I referred to other versions as well, or do you fail to recall my stating the Amplified, the New American Standard, the New International? Why, yes, I thought you had...conveniently), is referred to only because it CONTAINS the same books from which all the Christian religions/denominations now read (EXCEPT CATHOLICS). Once again you are wrong. What you should be saying is that "is referred to only because it CONTAINS the same books from which all the Protestant Christian religions/denominations now read. The Orthodox and the so-called Oriental Churches also use the same Bible as the Catholics, except that the Orthodox have added 1 Esdras to their OT. The various Oriental Churches also have some extra books but I don't remember what they are off of the top of my head. BTW, the Catholic church was not the "original" church. Pray tell where you came up with that idea? The letters in the New Testament, by Paul, for example, are to numerous churches (not Catholic). In the New Testament, there for example, Churches mentioned were at Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica, and Galatia. Where do you get the idea that they are "catholic" churches? They refer to themselves only as Christians, believers, followers of Christ, not "Catholics". I never said the Roman Catholic church was THE "original church," at least not in the way that you think. However, the various Catholic denominations, of which the Latin Rite is but one, most definitely are part of the "original church," along with the Eastern Orthodox and the various Oriental churches. Those "numerous churches" mentioned in the bible were all of one religion and one church, not many. We know from historical documents like the letter of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written in AD 110 that the early Church called themselves Catholic, which means "universal" or the "one and only." Many of the churches mentioned in the bible are still here today, and those that aren't were around long enough to leave historical documents. Not a single one of those churches is Protestant. They are/were either some sort of Catholic, Orthodox, or Oriental denomination. Your disagreeing with their doctrine does not change history, as much as you might like. We also know that they were organized and not stand alone churches because there are numerous historical letters written by the leaders of those churches to other churches. We also know that the early church banded together and fought against what they considered heresies by holding councils, just like in the Book of Acts. They also got together to pick new Bishops, per Acts. The Oriental Churches split from the rest at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. The Eastern Orthodox split from what is now called the Catholic Church in 1054. Any person would and should demand that a Christian back up their claims with Scripture versus, just like a scientist would demand to have references to back up any kind of scientific report. Every single denomination uses scripture to back up their beliefs, just like every single denomination uses scripture to tell others why they are wrong, just like single denomination uses scripture to damn everyone else to hell.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: This is not Jesus preaching in pergatory, as the Catholic church claims. Jesus, in Luke's gospel, chapter 16, described the condition of those who had died; discussed a rich man and a poor man, Lazarus, who survived off the scraps of food from the rich man's table.... The poor man died, was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom, the rich man died and went to Hades; he saw the poor man being comforted. The rich man called out to Abraham for comfort. Abraham reminded the rich man that while he was alive, he had comforts...besides, there is a gulf between them. The rich man asked that someone be sent to his brothers so they won't end up where he is. Abraham said a Prophet was already sent, and if he is not to be believed, neither will another be believed. In the New Testament, Jesus raised a Lazarus from the dead, and afterwards, the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus. Was this the same? In hell, the rich man has a consciousness. He remembers his brother and shows concern for his brother, not wanting him to come to the same horrible place. At this point, their bodies were in the grave, but the spirits were not. This was the condition of the dead before Jesus died on the cross. All of the dead went into this place that was divided (Hades), which had two compartments, one of torment and the other of comfort. Hebrews 11 refers to the men of faith in the Old Testament: they all died in vain, not having received the promises, but being convinced, declared they were just pilgrims on earth, not having received the promise. Prior to the death of Jesus, the sins were covered by the sacrifices of the Old Testament (through atonement). Hebrews tells us the sacrifices could not put away sin; that took the blood of Jesus Christ. The old testament sacrifices only made a covering, Jesus' blood removed our sins. Abraham was the father of those who believed that Jesus, the promised Messiah, would come, that their sins would be removed. God laid on Jesus the iniquity of us all. In Ephesians we read that He who has descended (into the lower parts of the earth), has ascended and led the captives from their captivity (the Old Testaments saints). Jesus went into hell, ministered to the souls in prison. Jesus said to thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Now, to die is to be present with the Lord, who is at the right hand of the Father in heaven. There is no waiting any longer. As Paul writes, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into a heaven and is at God's right hand with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. Baptism is but a symbol of salvation, as circumcision is symbolic of faith in and separation unto God. Baptism as a ritual is not unto salvation. God looks at the heart, not at physical rituals, mens traditions or doctrines, or church membership.
I made no such error. You have attributed your own faulty thought process onto me. It's called projection and your statement is inherently dishonest.
You are either purposely lying about what I said or are not comprehending what I said. I never said that I believed there was a biblical justification for Purgatory. I clearly stated that: Catholics say there is a Purgatory and Protestants says there isn't. I then went on to list the passages Catholics use to justify their belief. Catholics have hundreds, if not thousands of books written on the biblical justification for Purgatory, such as Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14, James 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1 Jn 5:16-17, James 1:14-15, 2 Sam 12:13-14, Mt 5:26, Mt 12:32, Mt 12:36, 2 Mace 12:44-46, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6, 2 Tim 1L16-18, 1 Cor 15:29- 30, at which time I stated, while Prostestants reject these same passages and have hundreds, if not thousands of books claiming these same passages do not mean what the Catholics say they mean, but mean something else completely. What more, I then explained why I didn't bother to list the passages Protestants use against Purgatory: I won't bother to list the passages protestants use to prove Purgatory is wrong because with Protestants, it not only depends on what denomination you're speaking about, but also the particular person you are speaking with. While Catholics have a biblical doctrine, individual Protestants, regardless of denomination, can warp the Bible to mean literally anything they want it to mean, therefore it's not as easy to pin down. As for your cut and pase diatribe against Purgatory, LOL! Dude, I don't care! LOL! I used it as an example! Your arguement is with them, not me! LOL! What is it that you don't understand when I tell you that I am neither a Catholic or a Christian. The reason why I am neither is because I have spent many a year reseaching this issue and come to the conclusion that no matter what I do I will not win because there is no way anyone can know which one of the 37000+ Christian denominations is right and which is wrong. For rthis reason, I think it's all bullshit. If there is a God and he loves us as much as the Bible says he does, then I do not believe he would set us up for failure like we see today. If he wanted us to follow exactly what he says, then he would damned well ensure that we were not being led astray by 37000+ denominations and millions of individuyal interpretations.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
And these types of churches, the Orthodox and Oriental churches, are predominantly found where? In and throughout America? We were talking about churches located in AMERICA...or else what did you refer to pro-war Southern Baptist and an average anti-war Quaker for? It now appears you're wishing to change continents so that you can insist on being "right" about you false claims and bring up churches not in America that may or may not use Catholic bibles?
It's called projection and your statement is inherently dishonest. Everyone can read what you wrote and make their own decision. I'm surely not wasting my time with a "yes you did, no you didn't" argument.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
Catholics say there is a Purgatory and Protestants says there isn't. I then went on to list the passages Catholics use to justify their belief. But you did say exactly that...you stated, and I quote AGAIN:
We were talking about churches located in AMERICA...or else what did you refer to pro-war Southern Baptist and an average anti-war Quaker for? It now appears you're wishing to change continents so that you can insist on being "right" about you false claims and bring up churches not in America that may or may not use Catholic bibles? You are one dishonest piece of shit. In the very same post you speak of, I mention the Orthodox Church.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
Catholics say there is a Purgatory and Protestants says there isn't. Catholics have hundreds, if not thousands of books written on the biblical justification for Purgatory... But I also stated: while Prostestants reject these same passages and have hundreds, if not thousands of books claiming these same passages do not mean what the Catholics say they mean, but mean something else completely. Also concerning what I said here: While Catholics have a biblical doctrine, individual Protestants, regardless of denomination, can warp the Bible to mean literally anything they want it to mean, therefore it's not as easy to pin down. What I said is exactly true. The Catholics have a written doctrine. It's easy to find out what they believe about issues like Purgatory because they all believe the same thing. Type in Catholic and Purgatory into Google and walla, you know exactly what they believe and can cut and paste the biblical passages they use all day long. You can't do that with Protestants because while they all may agree that there is no such thing as Purgatory, they all use different reasons why they disagree. You can't even type in Baptist or Church of Christ and Purgatory because the reasoning will change depending on the website. There is no way to nail it down. As far as twisting the Bible to mean anything they want, the fact that there are more than 37000 denominations speaks for itself.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI believe Hell is right here on Earth.
#5. To: Diana (#1)
I believe Hell is right here on Earth.
Yep. It is :)
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
#6. To: IndieTX (#5)
(Edited)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#7. To: Diana (#1)
I believe Hell is right here on Earth.
#8. To: richard9151 (#0)
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#9. To: mirage (#8)
Logically, to make it all fit, the "stain" must be removed.
#10. To: richard9151 (#9)
Ever hear of the ransom scariface of Jesus Christ? Which was specifically to make us 'clean' of sin and acceptable to Jehovah God as long as we did our best to follow the words of Jesus Christ, which are not his words but the Words of His Father? Ever hear anything about that?
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#11. To: mirage (#10)
I'll take history over someone else's opinion, thanks.
#12. To: Diana (#1)
I believe Hell is right here on Earth.
#13. To: mirage (#8)
Thus, purgatory
#14. To: richard9151 (#11)
(Edited)
Amazing, is it not, that an inerrent church changes an 1800 year old teaching..... just like that.
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#15. To: Old Friend (#13)
No such thing.
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#16. To: Old Friend, mirage, all (#13)
(Edited)
Thus, purgatory
#17. To: Hayek Fan (#16)
#18. To: litus (#17)
You're arguing about the various religious practices and beliefs, created by MAN.
#19. To: Hayek Fan (#18)
I'm making a point about those that are arguing.
#20. To: litus (#19)
Those traditions and dogmas were manufactured by men, not God.
#21. To: Hayek Fan (#20)
But of course, your particular brand of Christianity does not have this problem right?
#22. To: All (#21)
that it is NOT the THE TRUE CHURCH.
#23. To: litus (#21)
I have no brand of Christianity. I belong to and am a member of no church.
#24. To: Hayek Fan (#23)
In other words, just another kook with an opinion. Gotcha.
10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11bMy brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
#25. To: Hayek Fan (#16)
So who is correct? No one knows.
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#26. To: litus (#24)
It certainly appears to me you were defending the viewpoint of the Catholic church and their version of the Holy Scripture, which greatly differs from those used by all other Christian churches. If that was not your intent, please explain.
#27. To: mirage (#25)
(Edited)
When one of these "I know everything" types comes back from death to speak authoritatively on the topic, I'll listen.
#28. To: Hayek Fan (#26)
You try and make it appear as if the KJV is the original scripture and that the Catholics and Orthodox changed it when the KJV wasn't published until 1611 and used the Masoretic OT text that was centuries older than the Septuagint OT which forms the OT of the Catholic, Orthodox, and the Oriental Churches, all of which were around for 1600 years before the KJV was written. It is a fact admitted by all mainstream theologians, even Protestant, that the early church used the Septuagint OT.
#29. To: Hayek Fan (#27)
The fact that he hasn't done this tells me its either bullshit or the bible isn't as important as Christians say it is.
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#30. To: litus (#28)
I'm also pretty certain that everyone realizes that Bibles, no matter the version, were not placed into the hands of the common people until well after there was a printing press in the mid 1400's.
Depression is when you lose your job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.
#31. To: Hayek Fan (#16)
I won't bother to list the passages protestants use to prove Purgatory is wrong because with Protestants, it not only depends on what denomination you're speaking about, but also the particular person you are speaking with. While Catholics have a biblical doctrine, individual Protestants, regardless of denomination, can warp the Bible to mean literally anything they want it to mean, therefore it's not as easy to pin down.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48> Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Note: v. 16 — This refers to physical death. Believers can commit a sin for which the Heavenly Father will call them home. It may be a different sin for each of His children. Ananias and Sapphira committed the sin unto death (Acts 5:1-11). In Corinth there were some (1 Corinthians 11:30). Absalom did (2 Samuel 15-18). Moses and Aaron did (Numbers 20:12).
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
v. 17 — Everything that is not right is sin — but not every sin is unto death.
v. 18 — The new nature never sins. Believers living in the flesh (old nature) sin.2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well. 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
“Baptized” (v. 29) means identified. Paul took the place of a dead man in relationship to the world (see Galatians 6:14).
“It is sown a natural (psuchikon) body (soma); it is raised a spiritual (pneumatikon) body (soma).”
It is the body that is carried over in resurrection.
Epicureanism — no existence beyond death; materialistic.
Platonism — immortality of the soul; denied bodily resurrection.
#32. To: mirage (#30)
There are some on this site who don't comprehend that and refuse to.
#33. To: Old Friend (#12)
Then you don't know anything about Hell.
#34. To: litus (#28)
First of all, I'm pretty certain that everyone is aware that the King James Version wasn't written until 1611. Why can't you give people some credit. Good grief.
#35. To: All (#31)
1 Peter 3:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
#36. To: Hayek Fan (#34)
So I corrected your error.
#37. To: litus (#31)
You say there is biblical justification for Purgatory, such as the Scripture you cite above.
#38. To: Hayek Fan (#34)
The Orthodox and the so-called Oriental Churches also use the same Bible as the Catholics, except that the Orthodox have added 1 Esdras to their OT. The various Oriental Churches also have some extra books but I don't remember what they are off of the top of my head.
#39. To: litus (#36)
I made no such error. You have attributed your own faulty thought process onto me.
#40. To: Hayek Fan (#37)
You are either purposely lying about what I said or are not comprehending what I said. I never said that I believed there was a biblical justification for Purgatory. I clearly stated that:
Catholics say there is a Purgatory and Protestants says there isn't. Catholics have hundreds, if not thousands of books written on the biblical justification for Purgatory...
You also said:While Catholics have a biblical doctrine, individual Protestants, regardless of denomination, can warp the Bible to mean literally anything they want it to mean, therefore it's not as easy to pin down.
#41. To: litus (#38)
And these types of churches, the Orthodox and Oriental churches, are predominantly found where? In and throughout America?
#42. To: Hayek Fan (#41)
what did you refer to pro-war Southern Baptist and an average anti-war Quaker for
#43. To: litus (#40)
But you did say exactly that...you stated, and I quote AGAIN:
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