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Title: 9/11 UAL 175 Plane on Radar AFTER It Has 'Crashed' Into The WTC; (MSNBC)
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Published: Mar 16, 2009
Author: msnbc
Post Date: 2009-03-16 13:04:41 by Artisan
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#159. To: James Deffenbach (#158)
I'm sure they have more of this crap and it's in "human" hands....though they truly be monsters by any other name.
I didn't say you spelled problem wrong, although you did, but that was a typo as well as 'the' which doesn't have a g in it. This is perfectly understandable especially considering how frustrated you might have been. You didn't spell stupid wrong, I did. I was kidding. Stupid is not spelled 'stoopid'. I hope this clarifies things some.
hehehe
Being told that I don't think things through with any objective sense by someone who doesn't think things through with any objective sense bothers me. I'm not exactly sure why it does or if it should or not but it does. Sometimes more than other times. It's hypocrisy. Like being told to stop fucking swearing. Or being screamed at to relax. It's everywhere. It's enough to drive a person nuts. Like everyone's talking about global warming but noone says anything about the chemtrails. Like there not there. But they are. I just don't get it.
Because at this time on planet earth you are an oddity, like most of the rest of us here, you insist on thinking, examining, and determining a conclusion based on valid principles of reasoning. Sadly, that does make us odd in this programmed mind numbed dwindling culture where illiteracy is rampant and many consider good manners weakness.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
Thank you kind Sir. My new tagline:
How many of them had a 450MPH impact and catastrophic explosion prior to the fire? Your posts remind me a lot of this great analysis. He has your number. Looniest Of All 911 Conspiracy Theories By Gerard Holmgren 1-31-6 Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will usually be at least one, often several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. 'The CIA killed Hendrix', 'The Pope had John Lennon murdered', 'Hitler was half Werewolf', 'Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone' etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it. So its hardly surprising that the events of September 11th, 2001 have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is - sadly - a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis. One of the wilder stories circulating about September 11th - and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs - is that it was carried out by nineteen fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they 'hate our freedoms.' Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell. Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories. These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organising them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the US air-force, the insider trading on airline stocks - linked to the CIA - the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about nineteen Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do. The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposturous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions. It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it, and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog, they then re-invent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as 'the fruit loop' and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (il)ogical conclusions. According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, nineteen Arabs took over four planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets. The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes. If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist. With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID - but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities - they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious. However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have got on board with all that stuff if they were searched ? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage. "Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?" "A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get." "Very strange", thinks the security officer, "that's the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter and gas mask...and why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess..." Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane? But by this time , the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis. They will allege that the hijackers' passports were found at the crash scenes. "So there!" they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just a revelation of questionable sanity. Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated,and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, "who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!" And so the whole loop starts again. "Well, why aren't they on the passenger lists?" "You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!" And so on... Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion, the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story. "Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers? "The answer of course is that its just one of those strange coincidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen. This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The 'improbability drive', in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable co-incidences to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens - just about all the time in their world. There is a principle called 'Occam's razor' which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor. Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with with the silly story of the nineteen invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes. Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot being able to alert ground control is near impossible. The pilot has only to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking. Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that September 11th, the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives, and spraying gas - after they had attached their masks, obviously - but somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive. So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breath taking skill and certainty to their fiery end, all four pilots unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah. Apart from their psychotic hatred of 'our freedoms', it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this. Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar - really impeccable Islamic behavior - and then got up at 5 o'clock the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history. This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find. It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to their doom. If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to US intelligence services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist, too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi-believable. Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash. Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and mange to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane? This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along. There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable, quite remarkable. Sluggishly combustible jet fuel which is basically Kerosene, and which burns at a maximum temperature of around 800 degrees Celcius has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourising sixty-five tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around fifteen tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of Kerosene - let alone the boiling point - which is what would be required to vapourise a plane. And then there's about fifty tons of aluminium to be accounted for. In excess of 15lbs of metal for each gallon of Kerosene. For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as 'mumbo jumbo'. This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of Kerosene, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, this very minute. Blissfully ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourised into nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins. "Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact", they state with pompous certainty, "watch any Bruce Willis movie." "Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation - other than Bruce Willis movies?" At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip. "Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way of telling." they counter with a sly grin. Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before and since, and not vapourised into nothing. "But not big planes, with that much fuel", they shriek in hysterical denial. Or that much metal to vapourise. "Yes but not hijacked planes!" "Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?" "Now you're just being silly". Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs planted aboard them, and don't vapourise into nothing. What's so special about a tower that's mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. "It's a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact." Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a "well known fact" and that "its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to", the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves - if not too many other people - that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vapourisation of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit loop. But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of Kerosene. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant veritcal collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning Kerosene. For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose Kerosene which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball , vapourising a sixty-five ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000 degrees centigrade for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building. When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of Kerosene is enough to: - Completely vapourise a sixty-five ton aircraft - Have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel - melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel - Still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building This Kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those Kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourised. And never again will I take Kerosene lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp - the next - kapow! Vapourised into nothing along with with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire. These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning Kerosene melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the black smoke coming from the WTC indicates an oxygen starved fire - therefore not particularly hot - they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 degrees centigrade, without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics. Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways. Since they're already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and redefined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way? The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that its physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors. But according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of September 11th. It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course. Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why. "Muslim terrorists stole my notes,Sir." "No Miss, the Kerosene heater blew up and vapourised everything in the street, except for my passport." "You see Sir, the schoolbus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms." Or perhaps they misunderstood the term 'creative science' and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework. The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly Kerosene was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be identified. DNA is destroyed by heat - although 2000 degrees centigrade isn't really required, 100 degrees centigrade will generally do the job. This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city. That's right, if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in New York, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourise a sixty-five ton aircraft. You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane. The plane was vapourised by the fuel tank explosion, maintain these space loonies, but the people inside it were all but one identified by DNA testing. So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time. This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of 5 rings of building, each with a space inbetween. Each ring of building is about 30-35 feet deep, with a similar amount of open space between it and the next ring. The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat circular hole of about a 12 foot diameter through three rings - six walls. A little later a section of wall about 65 foot wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact had a wing span of 125 feet and a length of 155 feet, and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly physically impossible. But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell - why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well? I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy theorist, this is 'mumbo jumbo'. It conflicts with the delusion that they're hooked on, so it 'must be wrong' although trying to get them to explain exactly how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour. Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned. They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourised by it's exploding fuel load, and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior. That's a wonderful fruit loop. Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that the plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly backflip to explain the 250 foot deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building - even though the building shows no sign of such damage. As for what happened to the wings - here's where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat. When it suits them, they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly - ignoring the undamaged lawn - while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an 'irrecoverable angle.' How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in stupidity. Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks. As America gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual oil war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime. At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was perpetrated on September 11th, and the subsequent war crimes committed in 'retaliation' are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indulgence to go unchallenged. Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia. Its time to stop loony conspiracy theories about September 11th.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
This skyscraper was SPECIFICALLY designed and built, with special materials, to withstand a direct hit from a plane.... Give it up, war. The .gov lie is a joke!
You're great at projection war. That's about it though, other than your mastery of that character trait, you are nothing but a naive little kid who's all grown up and can't understand why those bad mooselums hate us for our freedom, yet swallows that tale as if it came from God Himself. I don't have time to waste with someone who is either playing stupid, or IS stupid. If you want to believe in fairy tales that is your right, but don't condemn those who don't believe them, capeesh?
O come on FL. I mean Law Enforcement found the passports in the hundred million tons of flaming debris the next day and had photos of them the day after that in all the newspapers. We are so fortunate to be protected by such a capable police authority.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" You are either a moron, or you are playing the part of one. Either way you should move on, no one is buying your BS on this forum.
God is always good!
can someone please post the picture of the girl in the window..i saw it on another thread but can not find it
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom.~~William Wallace ALAS, BABYLON
LOL! I know exactly what you are saying. Exactly. Here's what works for me. Your mileage may vary. 1) First and foremost: I know I will not change anyones mind. I dont have that kind of power and if I could force them to see it, I wouldn't. There's wisdom in the saying about leading horses to water but you cant make them drink. 2) No one made me see anything. I saw it for myself. THEN and only then did I learn from other people. 3) I am responsible for only 1 person, me. 4) I answer to only 1, God. That's my "philosophy".
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
They provided LATERAL stability/ Teh floor trusses ran from the core to the outer support once the trusses detached [as they had to the oputwer support at impact] from the core, there was virtually nothing holding the upper structuire to the bottom. You know nothing of what you are speaking of regarding the structure of the WTC towers Sure I do. Putting aide the fact that I did a college level paper on its construction which required a good deal of research, I've read most of the Moonbat stuff and cross referenced it to the investigation. That said, the most important fact that I knew all alopnog was that the buildings vertical support was in its outer walls [the WTC was a hollow tube or pipe that was then "filled in"] and its lateral support was in individual trusses strung between the core and the outer structure. I've yet to see any of the Moonbat stuff hold up under "Cross examination". or the impossibility of a near free fall collapse It didn't...tehre was a 3-4 second difference in how the Towers collapsed versus Free Fall speed which, if you know anything about physics, is a HUGE time gap. but that hardly makes you an expert on this in any way. And you are?
These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning Kerosene melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the black smoke coming from the WTC indicates an oxygen starved fire - therefore not particularly hot - they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 degrees centigrade, without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics. Magickal Jet Fuel™. (Great post).
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Wha...chuckle huh...your just posted that they fell at a time at odds with Free Fall speed... Putting aside thatthey actually fell even slower than the times you provide, gravity works at 32 feet per second per second...those 2-3 seconds are HUGE in terms of resistence. For one, the steel core bore the majority of the weight Nope. The outer walls did. The core provided vertical stability. Bullshit. Even if true, WTC7 was internally reinforced. Does this look like undamaged to you?
Mine had gravity in it. Where were the Enron SEC filings stored? In a computer database. Oh and BTW, there were no "raging fires", there was a bit of a diesel fire inside but nothing close to a "raging fire". You're out of your fucking mind. Do I need to post yet even more pictures showing how stupid you are?
The collapse of 7 was directlyy attriibuted to one of three vertical support beams being compromised over 13 floors by the heat from the fires. The individuals listed as the hijackers are not said to be using aliases If they weren't who they said that then what else could they have been using?
There was no need for clarification...attacking spelling an' grammar isn't an argument...
ASked and answered...
I don't believe that the Moslems hate us for our freedoms. I believe that they hate us because we are one in a series of western powers who have invaded their lands to exploit natural resources for profit and in so doing have taken one side or another in long standing blood fueds.
They had the passenger manifests of the flights which included the hijackers who were here on visas that required a file photo.
Oddly enough no-one seems to be able to refute my "bullshit" either. Which is probably why you feel compelled to tell me to move on. The last thing a Moonbat wants to be told is...he's a Moonbat...
And to correct a wrong point of yours...it wasnt special materials it was the design of the building. And, the architects/engineers admitted that the 767 hits were outside of the parameters of their "707 scenario".
What I find dreadfully amusing is that after all of the mountains of evidence that have been dug up and presented that the shills keep trying to push the same discredited spin invented to keep people from concluding the deadly obvious: Always they use the same disinfo tactics - focus on one or two small elements that can be made to sound confusing, reference the government reports that have been repeatedly proven false or untenable (like paper and wood furniture burn hot enough to melt steel), and when again, for the gazillionth time shown to be false, the go through the "Fruit Loop" again. It would be really funny except that you have to step back and look at the reality: 3,000 people were murdered in a massive government PsyOp for Political purposes and to cow people into surrendering their freedom for security. To surrender their freedom for protection from the people who committed the mass murder. Anyone who would defend such actions and attempt to explain it away is despicable and a sadly repellant excuse for a supposedly sentient entity.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
And you can of course present evidence to support that lie? I didn't think so.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires. -Leslie Robertson, Lead Structural Engineer WTC
Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets.
They had the passenger manifests of the flights which included the hijackers who were here on visas that required a file photo. Another lie. The Flight Manifests were published and showed up on the Internet. NONE OF THE SUPPOSED HIJACKERS NAMES SHOW UP ON ANY OF THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS. NONE OF THE HIJACKERS WERE PHOTOGRAPHED BY SECURITY CAMERAS BORDING THE PLANES. SEVERAL OF THE HIJACKER WERE TRAINED AT U.S. GOVERNMENT INTSTALLATIONS. AT LAST COUNT 7 (if memory serves) WERE ALIVE AND ELSEWHERE THE DAY OF AND AFTER THE 911 PSYOP. At this point all you are doing is regurgitating the same discredited lines of bullshit that have been planted all over the Web to try to discredit the obvious conclusion: 911 was committed with the full and knowing complicity of elements within the U.S. Feral Government.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
WHAT EVIDENCE? EVery bit of evidence presented by you Moonbats doesn't withstand the most minimal amount of scrutiny. James Doofenbog keeps trying to claim that the government concluded that kerosense "magic jet fuel" brought the towers down. He says this in full face of me posting the final government report which SPECIFICALLY states that the jet fule did not. Tell me tha tthe government ignored warnings and was asleep at the swtich and I'll have an easier time believing you as I believe that ample evidence exists for that - Rice's perjury to the 9/11 Commission alone is compelliung. But, tell me that the government brought the Towers down without being able to ptovide even a minimal amount of evidence thereunto and I'll call you a Moonbat.
Yeah, all that yammering about just regular stuff you would find in any office burning and melting steel is pretty sad. Only mind addled, tv-addicted zombies would believe such stupid stuff.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. **SIGH*** The Globe said according to the manifest, Mohamed Atta, one of the suspected terrorists, was assigned seat 8D in business class on American Airlines Flight 11, directly across the aisle from Hollywood producer David Angell and his wife, Lynn, who were in seats 8A and 8B, respectively. Seated next to Atta in seat 8G was Abdul Alomari. FBI investigators have searched Alomari's home in Vero Beach. The Globe reported the passenger list for United Air Lines Flight 175 shows that Marwan Alshehri got on the plane that left Boston and slammed into one of the Manhattan skyscrapers 15 minutes after Flight 11. An FAA pilot directory information spelled his name Marwan Alshehhi. ~snip~ How about we bet from here on out...?
The evidence is overwhelming the government was involved in the destruction of the WTC towers. The fact you can't see it says a lot about your intelligence level.
God is always good!
The Boston Globe September 13, 2001, Thursday ,THIRD EDITION ATTACK AFTERMATH / A NATION SEARCHES Shelley Murphy, Ralph Ranalli, Stephen Kurkjian, John Donnelly, Michael Rezendes, Wayne Washington, Sally Jacobs, Farah Stockman, and Judy Rakowsky of the Globe Staff contributed to this story. Globe correspondents Broward Liston and Fran Riley also assisted.; 12 SUSPECTS EYED IN HIJACKINGS; GRIM SEARCH FOR VICTIMS GOES ON 3 MEN TRAINED TO BE PILOTS ARE KEY TO PROBE BYLINE: By Kevin Cullen and Matthew Brelis, Globe Staff SECTION: NATIONAL/FOREIGN; Pg. A1 Three men who were trained as pilots have emerged as the central figures in the hijacking of two Boston-to-Los Angeles flights that were deliberately crashed into the World Trade Center towers. The trio are among a dozen men with Arabic surnames who were the focus yesterday of the massive investigation here trying to determine who commandeered the two Boeing 767s that formed half of the biggest terrorist attack ever against Americans. Sources close to the investigation said that investigators had recovered from a car rented by a suspected hijacker a so-called "ramp pass," which gives the holder access to restricted areas at Logan Airport. Evidence also suggests the rental car was used to case the airport during the week leading up to the attack. As investigators retraced the steps of the men, using an extensive list of Visa credit card receipts, evidence pointing to the plot having its roots in the Middle East was piling up. The names of the 12 men with Arabic surnames were not on a passenger list made public yesterday by American Airlines and United Air Lines, whose planes were hijacked Tuesday morning. But The Boston Globe obtained the complete list, and law enforcement sources confirmed that they were focusing on up to a dozen of the Arabic men as they piece together how the two Boston flights were hijacked. One of the suspects, Mohamed Atta, 33, is a Saudi national who trained as an airline pilot. The other two, Waleed Alshehri and Marwan Alshehri, are believed to be brothers from the United Arab Emirates, and are also trained to fly heavy commercial aircraft like the ones that were commandeered and flown into the World Trade Center towers in New York. Both Atta, who attended a flight school in Florida last year, and Waleed Alshehri received training that would have made them capable of flying American Airlines Flight 11 into the first of the two towers that later collapsed, killing what officials assume will be thousands of office workers and hundreds of their would-be rescuers. Marwan Alshehri, who attended flight school with Atta, was capable of flying United Air Lines Flight 175 into one of the towers, investigators believe. Atta caught Flight 11 off a connecting flight from Portland, Maine. Two bags with Atta's name tags were on the Portland flight, but did not get transferred in time to be loaded on the Los Angeles-bound flight that left Logan Airport at 7:59 a.m., about 45 minutes before it smashed into the World Trade Center tower. Acccording to the manifest, Atta was assigned seat 8D in business class on Flight 11, directly across the aisle from Hollywood producer David Angell and his wife, Lynn, who were in seats 8A and 8B respectively. Seated next to Atta in seat 8G was Abdul Alomari. The two remaining seats in Row 8, H and J, were unassigned. The passenger list for Flight 175 shows that Marwan Alshehri got on the plane that left Boston and slammed into one of the Manhattan skyscrapers 15 minutes after Flight 11. A Florida man, Charles Voss, yesterday said that Atta and a man whom he knew only as Marwan had stayed at his home last year while they obtained flight training at a Florida flight school. Voss, who used to work at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., told the Associated Press that the FBI agents who interviewed him Tuesday told him that the two men who stayed at his home were involved in the hijackings. Azzan Ali, a student at Huffman Aviation, said that Marwan Alshehri had stayed with Voss. Voss said the FBI told him that the two men who had stayed with him last year had been traced to a car found at Logan Airport. Law enforcement sources told the Globe that authorities had recovered from the car a a ramp pass issued by the Massachusetts Port Authority. Waleed Alshehri also held a commercial pilot's license and was rated to fly large, multi-engine aircraft. On Tuesday night, Massachusetts State Police detectives and the FBI seized a Mitsubishi sedan that a Hampden County law enforcement official said one of the suspected hijackers rented in Springfield and that was parked in a Logan Airport parking lot. When they reviewed videotape of the parking lot's surveillance camera, investigators found that the car had entered the lot up to five times between last Wednesday and Tuesday, according to sources. Those sources said the constant presence of the car over the last week suggested that the terrorists had scouted the airport, or performed dry runs for the daring attack. Sources familiar with the investigation said the ramp pass, found in the Mitsubishi sedan, gives holders access to restricted parts of the airport. Sources said at least five one-way tickets for the United flight and at least two similar tickets for the American flight were purchased at the last minute by suspected hijackers. The sources said at least four of the tickets were purchased with the same Visa card. One state official who spoke on condition of anonymity expressed deep regret that airline officials did not react more cautiously regarding the ticket purchases. "That is something that should jump out at you," said the state official. "One- way ticket, purchased by Arabic gentlemen; that should have been red-flagged." One source said the car had been parked at least "four to five" times at Logan since Sept. 5. Meanwhile, authorities in Florida were investigating the possibility that two suspected terrorists, including Waleed Alshehri, prepared for the attacks on New York and Washington while at Embry-Riddle Aeronautics University in Daytona Beach - one as a student and one while working as an instructor. In a statement yesterday, university officials said they are cooperating with the FBI and other investigative agencies and would provide no further information. But the Globe found Waleed Alshehri's name on a list of 1997 Embry graduates. The FBI Tuesday evening searched a Daytona Beach apartment where Alshehri lived during the time he is believed to have attended Embry. The Globe reported yesterday that inside the suitcase belonging to Atta, investigators found a Saudi passport, an international driver's license, a videotape on how to fly a Boeing 757 and 747, and "some kind of religious cassette tape." Atta has previously held an Egyptian driver's license. State Police and the FBI spent much of yesterday searching a unit of the Park Inn off Route 9 in Chestnut Hill, where at least two of the hijackers were believed to have stayed the night before the attack. At noon, more than a dozen law enforcement vehicles parked behind the hotel, and officers, some clad in bullet-proof vests and bearing shields, assembled on the third floor of the inn. The unit of the inn, formerly the Susse Chalet, is under renovation and only a few rooms were occupied, according to one of its managers. FBI investigators spent about 15 hours in Room 432 of the inn yesterday, painstakingly analyzing and removing evidence, including a recliner as well as several boxes and bags of material. The operation started at 6 a.m., according to other guests at the inn, who returned last night to find they were being moved to other buildings in the complex. All the guests were moved out of the building except Michael Arnold, of Nantucket, who was staying in the room next to 432 and was allowed to go in and shave last evening. Arnold had noticed the two men staying in the room next to his, where he said the FBI told him they found a flight schedule and a train schedule. But he said he had not noticed anything unusual about the men. While authorities were busy retracing the steps of Atta and his suspected co- conspirators, the fluid nature of the investigation was made evident as police aggressively followed any potential lead, sometimes catching up in their dragnet people who simply appeared suspicious to a jumpy public. In one case, three Arabs, including at least one with the same last name as one of the suspected hijackers, were taken into custody yesterday afternoon at the Westin Copley Place Hotel in a dramatic swoop by FBI agents, State Police detectives, and a heavily armored Boston police SWAT team. Several blocks surrounding the hotel were sealed off, and thousands of curious and nervous bystanders watched the police operation. But within a few hours, the three people who were taken in for questioning had been ruled out as being involved in the hijackings, sources said. An employee at the Budget Car and Truck Rental office inside the Westin said several Arab guests at the hotel who attempted to rent a car yesterday morning were considered suspicious, prompting the call to police. At about 3 p.m., Providence police stopped an Amtrak train heading from Boston to Washington, just outside the Providence train station. While police were looking for people wanted for questioning, Providence Police Colonel Richard T. Sullivan said a man taken from the train and arrested for carrying a large knife was not linked to the hijackings. Within hours of the second plane hitting the twin towers on Tuesday, the FBI was on the phone to Boston police, asking for all their files on licensing of Boston cab drivers and saying they were looking for information on all drivers, past and present, of Arabic descent, according to sources familiar with the investigation. The department's computerized database with the names of about 7,000 people who have been licensed as Boston cab drivers since the mid-1990s was provided. According to one source, the names of "hundred and hundreds" of people of Arabic descent are in the database. Boston police were told that authorities were not focusing on a particular individual or individuals for the terrorist acts, the officials said. However, the federal authorities said that since the names of several cab drivers with ties to Osama bin Laden had become known after the bombing of the USS Cole, they wanted to check to see if those whose names may come up in this investigation had any similar Boston ties, the officials said. In Washington, meanwhile, US officials were trying to determine whether the hijackers were linked to the Saudi-born, anti-American terrorist bin Laden. Asked if the hijackers could belong to other terror groups, one US official said, "Bin Laden's organization is a lot of different groups loosely aligned with him, so sure it's possible. But all the individuals are commonly linked to him." US officials were sorting through "thousands" of leads yesterday at the FBI, State Department, Defense Department, and various intelligence agencies. A second US official, based in the State Department, said they were also receiving an unusually heavy number of threats against US targets. "We're sorting out what may be real and what are just copycats," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We're looking at literally thousands of pieces of information, trying to establish one line that more or less makes the most sense." Search warrants have been executed in states other than Florida, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, but those warrants are sealed because they contain information investigators believe could hinder their pursuit of those responsible for Tuesday's attack, a Justice Department official said. Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official would not say how many warrants have been issued or identify the other states. Law enforcement officials have been slow to confirm information reported about the attacks.
Dude...the fact that YOU see shit that ain't even there says more...
No one said anything about "resisting" the impact. The buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 - which you can try to obfuscate but cannot refute. The difference is size between a 707 and a 767 is relatively small and the 707 had a larger fuel capacity due to a less efficient, earlier, design. The aircraft were not fully loaded with fuel, admitted in the FEMA report, as it is standard practice to load only enough fuel to make the scheduled flight plus 10% for a margin of safety. Thus the aircraft had about 10,000 gallons of fuel - less than their capacity. JP 8 (Kerosene) does not burn hot enough even under ideal conditions in a forced air furnace (for example a Jet Engine) to melt steel. Witness the fact that airliners don't crash because the fuel melted the engines. Paper and Wood are elements of a Class Alpha Fire and do not, even under ideal laboratory conditions, get hot enough to melt steel and there was insufficient quantities to even soften the steel as the steel girder framework acts like a heat sink dispersing the head throughout the structure and thus keeping the temperature down below the critical points. A localized fire cannot cause a uniform symmetrical simultaneous collapse. The normal failure pattern in a catastrophic structural failure is for there to be a point of greatest weakness. The failure occurs at the weak point first which results in an ASYMMETRICAL failure with the structure moving toward the point of failure. It does not occur simultaneously in 360 degrees causing a uniform symmetrical failure. The uniform symmetrical failure is itself evidence of controlled demolition. Further in true shill fashion once it was pointed out that the box column center of the building is the primary load bearing structure of the building design you simply followed the fruit loop pattern of avoiding it, denying it, and the trying to shift the debate away from that which you cannot dispute. You are a liar, are shown to be a liar, and intentionally so. You are either a Shill or an Idiot and at this point Shill is most likely given your repeated use of disinformation tactics.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
Let's see...am I to take the word of an internet Moonbat arguing with the words of the structural engineer or the word of the structural engineer, himself...hmmm...ah....uh...hmmm...what a ponderable...? [snicker]
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#160. To: war (#51)
So I hit the "p" key which is right next to the "o" key. Sue me...
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#161. To: wudidiz (#160)
Stupid is not spelled 'stoopid'.
#162. To: PSUSA (#44)
That doesn't bother me. IT's not like this is the first time it's ever happened.
"It is like a trance. So what can break a trance? The only thing that can break the trance is the light of truth."
~ Canadian Philosopher John McMurtry as he comments on the psychological warfare that has afflicted us all
#163. To: wudidiz (#162)
Being told that I don't think things through with any objective sense by someone who doesn't think things through with any objective sense bothers me. I'm not exactly sure why it does or if it should or not but it does. Sometimes more than other times. It's hypocrisy. Like being told to stop fucking swearing. Or being screamed at to relax. It's everywhere. It's enough to drive a person nuts. Like everyone's talking about global warming but noone says anything about the chemtrails. Like there not there. But they are. I just don't get it.
#164. To: Original_Intent (#163)
"If I were going to construct a God I would furnish him with some ways and qualities and characteristics which the Present One lacks... He would spend some of His eternities in trying to forgive Himself for making man unhappy when He could have made him happy with the same effort and He would spend the rest of them in studying astronomy." ~ Mark Twain
#165. To: war (#136)
Many skyscrapers have had fires as intense
#166. To: war (#136)
How many of them had a 450MPH impact and catastrophic explosion prior to the fire?
#167. To: war (#133)
BTW, in case you handn't noticed, there is not one point that you have raised that has not been shown to be bullshit,
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#168. To: FormerLurker (#167)
I don't have time to waste with someone who is either playing stupid, or IS stupid.
#169. To: war (#131)
#170. To: RickyJ, ALL (#169)
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
#171. To: wudidiz (#162)
Being told that I don't think things through with any objective sense by someone who doesn't think things through with any objective sense bothers me. I'm not exactly sure why it does or if it should or not but it does. Sometimes more than other times. It's hypocrisy. Like being told to stop fucking swearing. Or being screamed at to relax. It's everywhere. It's enough to drive a person nuts. Like everyone's talking about global warming but noone says anything about the chemtrails. Like there not there. But they are. I just don't get it.
#172. To: RickyJ (#156)
Those core columns didn't do anything did they?
#173. To: Original_Intent (#165)
This Kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those Kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourised. And never again will I take Kerosene lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp - the next - kapow! Vapourised into nothing along with with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.
Lord Acton
#174. To: FormerLurker (#67)
They fell in about 10-11 seconds where free fall through air would have been a little over 9 seconds. So you're wrong.
#175. To: FormerLurker (#67)
Apparently we studied a different sort of physics.
#176. To: FormerLurker (#67)
You think that a structure such as WTC7 would simply collapse like a deck of cards due to a relatively small internal fire a bit of damage to an exterior wall?
#177. To: wudidiz (#160)
#178. To: litus (#166)
This skyscraper was SPECIFICALLY designed and built, with special materials, to withstand a direct hit from a plane....
#179. To: FormerLurker (#167)
That's about it though, other than your mastery of that character trait, you are nothing but a naive little kid who's all grown up and can't understand why those bad mooselums hate us for our freedom, yet swallows that tale as if it came from God Himself.
#180. To: tom007 (#168)
I mean Law Enforcement found the passports in the hundred million tons of flaming debris the next day and had photos of them the day after that in all the newspapers.
#181. To: RickyJ (#169)
#182. To: litus (#166)
#183. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, Wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#173)
911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB.
#184. To: war, litus (#182)
And, the architects/engineers admitted that the 767 hits were outside of the parameters of their "707 scenario".
#185. To: Original_Intent (#184)
And you can of course present evidence
#186. To: Original_Intent (#184)
#187. To: war, tom007 (#180)
I mean Law Enforcement found the passports in the hundred million tons of flaming debris the next day and had photos of them the day after that in all the newspapers.
#188. To: Original_Intent (#183)
What I find dreadfully amusing is that after all of the mountains of evidence that have been dug up and presented that the shills keep trying to push the same discredited spin invented to keep people from concluding the deadly obvious:
#189. To: Original_Intent (#183)
Anyone who would defend such actions and attempt to explain it away is despicable and a sadly repellant excuse for a supposedly sentient entity.
Lord Acton
#190. To: Original_Intent (#187)
NONE OF THE SUPPOSED HIJACKERS NAMES SHOW UP ON ANY OF THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS
#191. To: war (#188)
But, tell me that the government brought the Towers down without being able to ptovide even a minimal amount of evidence thereunto and I'll call you a Moonbat.
#192. To: All (#188)
#193. To: RickyJ (#191)
The fact you can't see it says a lot about your intelligence level.
#194. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#195. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#196. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#197. To: war, FormerLurker, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, tom007, litus, christine, all (#186)
#198. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#199. To: Original_Intent (#197)
The buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 - which you can try to obfuscate but cannot refute.
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