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Title: 9/11 UAL 175 Plane on Radar AFTER It Has 'Crashed' Into The WTC; (MSNBC)
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Published: Mar 16, 2009
Author: msnbc
Post Date: 2009-03-16 13:04:41 by Artisan
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#178. To: litus (#166)
ASked and answered...
I don't believe that the Moslems hate us for our freedoms. I believe that they hate us because we are one in a series of western powers who have invaded their lands to exploit natural resources for profit and in so doing have taken one side or another in long standing blood fueds.
They had the passenger manifests of the flights which included the hijackers who were here on visas that required a file photo.
Oddly enough no-one seems to be able to refute my "bullshit" either. Which is probably why you feel compelled to tell me to move on. The last thing a Moonbat wants to be told is...he's a Moonbat...
And to correct a wrong point of yours...it wasnt special materials it was the design of the building. And, the architects/engineers admitted that the 767 hits were outside of the parameters of their "707 scenario".
What I find dreadfully amusing is that after all of the mountains of evidence that have been dug up and presented that the shills keep trying to push the same discredited spin invented to keep people from concluding the deadly obvious: Always they use the same disinfo tactics - focus on one or two small elements that can be made to sound confusing, reference the government reports that have been repeatedly proven false or untenable (like paper and wood furniture burn hot enough to melt steel), and when again, for the gazillionth time shown to be false, the go through the "Fruit Loop" again. It would be really funny except that you have to step back and look at the reality: 3,000 people were murdered in a massive government PsyOp for Political purposes and to cow people into surrendering their freedom for security. To surrender their freedom for protection from the people who committed the mass murder. Anyone who would defend such actions and attempt to explain it away is despicable and a sadly repellant excuse for a supposedly sentient entity.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
And you can of course present evidence to support that lie? I didn't think so.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires. -Leslie Robertson, Lead Structural Engineer WTC
Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets.
They had the passenger manifests of the flights which included the hijackers who were here on visas that required a file photo. Another lie. The Flight Manifests were published and showed up on the Internet. NONE OF THE SUPPOSED HIJACKERS NAMES SHOW UP ON ANY OF THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS. NONE OF THE HIJACKERS WERE PHOTOGRAPHED BY SECURITY CAMERAS BORDING THE PLANES. SEVERAL OF THE HIJACKER WERE TRAINED AT U.S. GOVERNMENT INTSTALLATIONS. AT LAST COUNT 7 (if memory serves) WERE ALIVE AND ELSEWHERE THE DAY OF AND AFTER THE 911 PSYOP. At this point all you are doing is regurgitating the same discredited lines of bullshit that have been planted all over the Web to try to discredit the obvious conclusion: 911 was committed with the full and knowing complicity of elements within the U.S. Feral Government.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
WHAT EVIDENCE? EVery bit of evidence presented by you Moonbats doesn't withstand the most minimal amount of scrutiny. James Doofenbog keeps trying to claim that the government concluded that kerosense "magic jet fuel" brought the towers down. He says this in full face of me posting the final government report which SPECIFICALLY states that the jet fule did not. Tell me tha tthe government ignored warnings and was asleep at the swtich and I'll have an easier time believing you as I believe that ample evidence exists for that - Rice's perjury to the 9/11 Commission alone is compelliung. But, tell me that the government brought the Towers down without being able to ptovide even a minimal amount of evidence thereunto and I'll call you a Moonbat.
Yeah, all that yammering about just regular stuff you would find in any office burning and melting steel is pretty sad. Only mind addled, tv-addicted zombies would believe such stupid stuff.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. **SIGH*** The Globe said according to the manifest, Mohamed Atta, one of the suspected terrorists, was assigned seat 8D in business class on American Airlines Flight 11, directly across the aisle from Hollywood producer David Angell and his wife, Lynn, who were in seats 8A and 8B, respectively. Seated next to Atta in seat 8G was Abdul Alomari. FBI investigators have searched Alomari's home in Vero Beach. The Globe reported the passenger list for United Air Lines Flight 175 shows that Marwan Alshehri got on the plane that left Boston and slammed into one of the Manhattan skyscrapers 15 minutes after Flight 11. An FAA pilot directory information spelled his name Marwan Alshehhi. ~snip~ How about we bet from here on out...?
The evidence is overwhelming the government was involved in the destruction of the WTC towers. The fact you can't see it says a lot about your intelligence level.
God is always good!
The Boston Globe September 13, 2001, Thursday ,THIRD EDITION ATTACK AFTERMATH / A NATION SEARCHES Shelley Murphy, Ralph Ranalli, Stephen Kurkjian, John Donnelly, Michael Rezendes, Wayne Washington, Sally Jacobs, Farah Stockman, and Judy Rakowsky of the Globe Staff contributed to this story. Globe correspondents Broward Liston and Fran Riley also assisted.; 12 SUSPECTS EYED IN HIJACKINGS; GRIM SEARCH FOR VICTIMS GOES ON 3 MEN TRAINED TO BE PILOTS ARE KEY TO PROBE BYLINE: By Kevin Cullen and Matthew Brelis, Globe Staff SECTION: NATIONAL/FOREIGN; Pg. A1 Three men who were trained as pilots have emerged as the central figures in the hijacking of two Boston-to-Los Angeles flights that were deliberately crashed into the World Trade Center towers. The trio are among a dozen men with Arabic surnames who were the focus yesterday of the massive investigation here trying to determine who commandeered the two Boeing 767s that formed half of the biggest terrorist attack ever against Americans. Sources close to the investigation said that investigators had recovered from a car rented by a suspected hijacker a so-called "ramp pass," which gives the holder access to restricted areas at Logan Airport. Evidence also suggests the rental car was used to case the airport during the week leading up to the attack. As investigators retraced the steps of the men, using an extensive list of Visa credit card receipts, evidence pointing to the plot having its roots in the Middle East was piling up. The names of the 12 men with Arabic surnames were not on a passenger list made public yesterday by American Airlines and United Air Lines, whose planes were hijacked Tuesday morning. But The Boston Globe obtained the complete list, and law enforcement sources confirmed that they were focusing on up to a dozen of the Arabic men as they piece together how the two Boston flights were hijacked. One of the suspects, Mohamed Atta, 33, is a Saudi national who trained as an airline pilot. The other two, Waleed Alshehri and Marwan Alshehri, are believed to be brothers from the United Arab Emirates, and are also trained to fly heavy commercial aircraft like the ones that were commandeered and flown into the World Trade Center towers in New York. Both Atta, who attended a flight school in Florida last year, and Waleed Alshehri received training that would have made them capable of flying American Airlines Flight 11 into the first of the two towers that later collapsed, killing what officials assume will be thousands of office workers and hundreds of their would-be rescuers. Marwan Alshehri, who attended flight school with Atta, was capable of flying United Air Lines Flight 175 into one of the towers, investigators believe. Atta caught Flight 11 off a connecting flight from Portland, Maine. Two bags with Atta's name tags were on the Portland flight, but did not get transferred in time to be loaded on the Los Angeles-bound flight that left Logan Airport at 7:59 a.m., about 45 minutes before it smashed into the World Trade Center tower. Acccording to the manifest, Atta was assigned seat 8D in business class on Flight 11, directly across the aisle from Hollywood producer David Angell and his wife, Lynn, who were in seats 8A and 8B respectively. Seated next to Atta in seat 8G was Abdul Alomari. The two remaining seats in Row 8, H and J, were unassigned. The passenger list for Flight 175 shows that Marwan Alshehri got on the plane that left Boston and slammed into one of the Manhattan skyscrapers 15 minutes after Flight 11. A Florida man, Charles Voss, yesterday said that Atta and a man whom he knew only as Marwan had stayed at his home last year while they obtained flight training at a Florida flight school. Voss, who used to work at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., told the Associated Press that the FBI agents who interviewed him Tuesday told him that the two men who stayed at his home were involved in the hijackings. Azzan Ali, a student at Huffman Aviation, said that Marwan Alshehri had stayed with Voss. Voss said the FBI told him that the two men who had stayed with him last year had been traced to a car found at Logan Airport. Law enforcement sources told the Globe that authorities had recovered from the car a a ramp pass issued by the Massachusetts Port Authority. Waleed Alshehri also held a commercial pilot's license and was rated to fly large, multi-engine aircraft. On Tuesday night, Massachusetts State Police detectives and the FBI seized a Mitsubishi sedan that a Hampden County law enforcement official said one of the suspected hijackers rented in Springfield and that was parked in a Logan Airport parking lot. When they reviewed videotape of the parking lot's surveillance camera, investigators found that the car had entered the lot up to five times between last Wednesday and Tuesday, according to sources. Those sources said the constant presence of the car over the last week suggested that the terrorists had scouted the airport, or performed dry runs for the daring attack. Sources familiar with the investigation said the ramp pass, found in the Mitsubishi sedan, gives holders access to restricted parts of the airport. Sources said at least five one-way tickets for the United flight and at least two similar tickets for the American flight were purchased at the last minute by suspected hijackers. The sources said at least four of the tickets were purchased with the same Visa card. One state official who spoke on condition of anonymity expressed deep regret that airline officials did not react more cautiously regarding the ticket purchases. "That is something that should jump out at you," said the state official. "One- way ticket, purchased by Arabic gentlemen; that should have been red-flagged." One source said the car had been parked at least "four to five" times at Logan since Sept. 5. Meanwhile, authorities in Florida were investigating the possibility that two suspected terrorists, including Waleed Alshehri, prepared for the attacks on New York and Washington while at Embry-Riddle Aeronautics University in Daytona Beach - one as a student and one while working as an instructor. In a statement yesterday, university officials said they are cooperating with the FBI and other investigative agencies and would provide no further information. But the Globe found Waleed Alshehri's name on a list of 1997 Embry graduates. The FBI Tuesday evening searched a Daytona Beach apartment where Alshehri lived during the time he is believed to have attended Embry. The Globe reported yesterday that inside the suitcase belonging to Atta, investigators found a Saudi passport, an international driver's license, a videotape on how to fly a Boeing 757 and 747, and "some kind of religious cassette tape." Atta has previously held an Egyptian driver's license. State Police and the FBI spent much of yesterday searching a unit of the Park Inn off Route 9 in Chestnut Hill, where at least two of the hijackers were believed to have stayed the night before the attack. At noon, more than a dozen law enforcement vehicles parked behind the hotel, and officers, some clad in bullet-proof vests and bearing shields, assembled on the third floor of the inn. The unit of the inn, formerly the Susse Chalet, is under renovation and only a few rooms were occupied, according to one of its managers. FBI investigators spent about 15 hours in Room 432 of the inn yesterday, painstakingly analyzing and removing evidence, including a recliner as well as several boxes and bags of material. The operation started at 6 a.m., according to other guests at the inn, who returned last night to find they were being moved to other buildings in the complex. All the guests were moved out of the building except Michael Arnold, of Nantucket, who was staying in the room next to 432 and was allowed to go in and shave last evening. Arnold had noticed the two men staying in the room next to his, where he said the FBI told him they found a flight schedule and a train schedule. But he said he had not noticed anything unusual about the men. While authorities were busy retracing the steps of Atta and his suspected co- conspirators, the fluid nature of the investigation was made evident as police aggressively followed any potential lead, sometimes catching up in their dragnet people who simply appeared suspicious to a jumpy public. In one case, three Arabs, including at least one with the same last name as one of the suspected hijackers, were taken into custody yesterday afternoon at the Westin Copley Place Hotel in a dramatic swoop by FBI agents, State Police detectives, and a heavily armored Boston police SWAT team. Several blocks surrounding the hotel were sealed off, and thousands of curious and nervous bystanders watched the police operation. But within a few hours, the three people who were taken in for questioning had been ruled out as being involved in the hijackings, sources said. An employee at the Budget Car and Truck Rental office inside the Westin said several Arab guests at the hotel who attempted to rent a car yesterday morning were considered suspicious, prompting the call to police. At about 3 p.m., Providence police stopped an Amtrak train heading from Boston to Washington, just outside the Providence train station. While police were looking for people wanted for questioning, Providence Police Colonel Richard T. Sullivan said a man taken from the train and arrested for carrying a large knife was not linked to the hijackings. Within hours of the second plane hitting the twin towers on Tuesday, the FBI was on the phone to Boston police, asking for all their files on licensing of Boston cab drivers and saying they were looking for information on all drivers, past and present, of Arabic descent, according to sources familiar with the investigation. The department's computerized database with the names of about 7,000 people who have been licensed as Boston cab drivers since the mid-1990s was provided. According to one source, the names of "hundred and hundreds" of people of Arabic descent are in the database. Boston police were told that authorities were not focusing on a particular individual or individuals for the terrorist acts, the officials said. However, the federal authorities said that since the names of several cab drivers with ties to Osama bin Laden had become known after the bombing of the USS Cole, they wanted to check to see if those whose names may come up in this investigation had any similar Boston ties, the officials said. In Washington, meanwhile, US officials were trying to determine whether the hijackers were linked to the Saudi-born, anti-American terrorist bin Laden. Asked if the hijackers could belong to other terror groups, one US official said, "Bin Laden's organization is a lot of different groups loosely aligned with him, so sure it's possible. But all the individuals are commonly linked to him." US officials were sorting through "thousands" of leads yesterday at the FBI, State Department, Defense Department, and various intelligence agencies. A second US official, based in the State Department, said they were also receiving an unusually heavy number of threats against US targets. "We're sorting out what may be real and what are just copycats," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We're looking at literally thousands of pieces of information, trying to establish one line that more or less makes the most sense." Search warrants have been executed in states other than Florida, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, but those warrants are sealed because they contain information investigators believe could hinder their pursuit of those responsible for Tuesday's attack, a Justice Department official said. Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official would not say how many warrants have been issued or identify the other states. Law enforcement officials have been slow to confirm information reported about the attacks.
Dude...the fact that YOU see shit that ain't even there says more...
No one said anything about "resisting" the impact. The buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 - which you can try to obfuscate but cannot refute. The difference is size between a 707 and a 767 is relatively small and the 707 had a larger fuel capacity due to a less efficient, earlier, design. The aircraft were not fully loaded with fuel, admitted in the FEMA report, as it is standard practice to load only enough fuel to make the scheduled flight plus 10% for a margin of safety. Thus the aircraft had about 10,000 gallons of fuel - less than their capacity. JP 8 (Kerosene) does not burn hot enough even under ideal conditions in a forced air furnace (for example a Jet Engine) to melt steel. Witness the fact that airliners don't crash because the fuel melted the engines. Paper and Wood are elements of a Class Alpha Fire and do not, even under ideal laboratory conditions, get hot enough to melt steel and there was insufficient quantities to even soften the steel as the steel girder framework acts like a heat sink dispersing the head throughout the structure and thus keeping the temperature down below the critical points. A localized fire cannot cause a uniform symmetrical simultaneous collapse. The normal failure pattern in a catastrophic structural failure is for there to be a point of greatest weakness. The failure occurs at the weak point first which results in an ASYMMETRICAL failure with the structure moving toward the point of failure. It does not occur simultaneously in 360 degrees causing a uniform symmetrical failure. The uniform symmetrical failure is itself evidence of controlled demolition. Further in true shill fashion once it was pointed out that the box column center of the building is the primary load bearing structure of the building design you simply followed the fruit loop pattern of avoiding it, denying it, and the trying to shift the debate away from that which you cannot dispute. You are a liar, are shown to be a liar, and intentionally so. You are either a Shill or an Idiot and at this point Shill is most likely given your repeated use of disinformation tactics.
""I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
Let's see...am I to take the word of an internet Moonbat arguing with the words of the structural engineer or the word of the structural engineer, himself...hmmm...ah....uh...hmmm...what a ponderable...? [snicker]
too bad for you that the WTC fires were not localized...but...suspending disblief for the momenbt and stipulating that they were...they were localized to an area already catostrophically damaged and vital to the structure's support...
You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane. The plane was vapourised by the fuel tank explosion, maintain these space loonies, but the people inside it were all but one identified by DNA testing. So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time. Magickal Jet Fuel™ AND Magickal DNA™! My goodness, who woulda thunk it?!?!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA test “DNA extractions were done on every one of the 19,906 remains, and 4,735 of those have been identified. As many as 200 remains have been linked to a single person. Of the 1,401 people identified include 45 of those aboard the hijacked planes - 33 from Flight 11, which struck the north tower, and 12 from Flight 175, which hit the south tower.”... ~snip~ Your penchant for accuracy is surpassed only by that of Wrong Way Corrigan's...
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=259178&Disp=6#C6
***SIGH*** Ground was broken on August 5th, 1966. The project began with excavation six stories down to bedrock where the towers’ footings would stand. Crews dug around the PATH train tubes within the site, removing one million cubic yards of earth that would eventually form Battery Park City. Site preparations were vast and included an elaborate method of foundation work for which a “bathtub” had to be built 65 feet below grade. The bathtub was made of a bentonite (absorbent clay) slurry wall meant to keep out groundwater and the Hudson River. Tie-backs were inserted through the wall and anchored at an angle in the earth behind them. The foundation construction was just a fraction of many innovations masterminded by Yamasaki and team. Among them were the Twin Towers’ high-speed elevators, sky lobbies, and a “hollow tube” building model that distributed weight from the inner core across floor trusses to the exterior’s closely spaced steel columns. The load-bearing exterior also served as bracing against wind. Floor trusses and exterior-wall panels were prefabricated before being lifted and bolted into place, speeding construction. The first tenants moved into 1 WTC, the north tower, in 1970, and two years later into 2 WTC. The Port Authority’s construction costs totaled more than $900 million. To supply power to the 10048 zip code—which was dedicated solely to the WTC site—Con Edison built an electrical substation across Vesey Street in 1967. Atop the substation developer Silverstein Properties built a 47-story, red masonry tower, known as Seven World Trade Center, in 1987.
Because the 767s were traveling at high speeds, were somewhat larger than 707s and each carried about 80 tons of jet fuel, Robertson said, “the energy that was absorbed by the impact was not less than three-times, and probably as much as six-times greater than the impact we had considered.
This revolutionary construction system was a major change from the conventional system that used steel i-beams throughout the structure with non-structural exterior curtain walls. Prior to this time, curtain walls were used primarily to keep the elements out and were non-load bearing. All wind loads were transferred through the floor membrane and supported by the core of the structure. This new hollow tube system design resulted in a light and economical structure using only half the amount of steel required in a conventional building. It also provided for the wind bracing to be placed in the exterior walls — the most efficient place. The exterior wall in this system would be load bearing and used to support the structure itself.
This revolutionary construction system was a major change from the conventional system that used steel i-beams throughout the structure with non-structural exterior curtain walls. Prior to this time, curtain walls were used primarily to keep the elements out and were non-load bearing. All wind loads were transferred through the floor membrane and supported by the core of the structure. This new hollow tube system design resulted in a light and economical structure using only half the amount of steel required in a conventional building. It also provided for the wind bracing to be placed in the exterior walls — the most efficient place. The exterior wall in this system would be load bearing and used to support the structure itself.
TAKE A LOOK AT THESE PICTURES OF THE BUILDINGS ON FIRE! Firefighters were murdered on 911. Their stories stuffed away, denounced. They heard bombs, they know it was a demolition, they know 'heat from fire' did not melt or degrade the steel columns. These reports prove there was not sufficient fire or heat to make the towers collapse with symmetrical precision.
The video above features a compendium of clips from Loose Change and Alex Jones' Martial Law which include voluminous evidence of bombs inside the twin towers - both eyewitness testimony and physical evidence.
How many of those buildings had 67% of the building's load in the exterior walls?
According to the Journal of Australian Fire Investigators, kerosene ignites at around 444°F. The temperature that the fire will eventually reach depends on both the combustion rate (based on O2) and the rate at which heat can be disbursed in the given scenario. Again, any firefighter can explain from experience and training that the black, sooty smoke (like that found on 9/11 at the WTC towers) were O2 deprived. Again, please contact professionals to verify this if you wish. In an oxygen deprived environment, higher temperatures cannot be reached. You can test this yourself by comparing a match in the open vs. a match in a bottle with a very small hole. T.C. Forensic: Article 10 - PHYSICAL CONSTANTS FOR INVESTIGATORS
A localized fire cannot cause a uniform symmetrical simultaneous collapse. The normal failure pattern in a catastrophic structural failure is for there to be a point of greatest weakness. The failure occurs at the weak point first which results in an ASYMMETRICAL failure with the structure moving toward the point of failure. It does not occur simultaneously in 360 degrees causing a uniform symmetrical failure. The uniform symmetrical failure is itself evidence of controlled demolition. BUMP!
Another scientific report....published, that is. Interesting.
www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_9-11.html Babel Fish Translation SPANISH SKYSCRAPER FIRE RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT 9/11 COLLAPSES By Christopher Bollyn American Free Press The fact that a Spanish skyscraper is still standing after an intense fire consumed the steel and concrete tower for 24 hours provides real world evidence that fire alone does not cause high-rise towers to collapse. As an intense fire consumed the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid's business district, the press reports all began with the words "fear of collapse." After 24 hours, however, the tower, which was a similar construction to the twin towers of the World Trade Center, remained standing. The fact that an extremely severe fire did not cause the Spanish steel and concrete tower to collapse raises serious questions about the events of 9/11 and how they have been explained. Why did the Windsor Building remain standing when similar towers in New York City collapsed completely after being affected by much less intense fires burning for considerably shorter periods of time? The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) sponsored engineers to conduct the World Trade Center Building Performance Study (BPS) to examine how the buildings of the WTC responded to the airplane crashes and fires that allegedly caused the collapses of the twin towers and WTC 7, a 47-story office building on the next block. "Prior to September 11, 2001, there was little, if any, record of fire-induced collapse of large fire-protected steel buildings," the BPS says in the chapter about the mysterious collapse of WTC 7, the third tower to collapse on 9/11. WTC 7 was not hit by aircraft or large pieces of debris and had only sporadic fires. At about 5:25 p.m., WTC 7, owned by Larry Silverstein, collapsed in what appeared to be a controlled demolition. It would be more accurate to say that no steel framed high-rise, like WTC 7, has ever collapsed due to fire. The fact that the Windsor Building is still standing is proof that fire alone does not cause properly constructed steel and concrete towers to collapse. Dr. W. Gene Corley, Senior Vice President of Construction Technology Laboratories (CTL) of Skokie, Ill., was team leader of the engineers who wrote the BPS. CTL is a subsidiary of the Portland Cement Association and "provides structural and architectural engineering, testing, and materials technology services throughout the U.S. and internationally." According to its website, "CTL’s expertise extends beyond cement and concrete, encompassing virtually all structural systems and construction materials." WACO, OKLAHOMA CITY, AND WTC Corley served as expert adviser during the government's investigation of the 1993 fatal fire at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, Texas. In 1995, Corley led a Building Performance Assessment Team (BPAT) investigation of the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. In September 2001, once again, Corley was selected to head the team to study building performance after the attack on New York’s World Trade Center. In the executive summary of the WTC study, Corley wrote that secondary fires caused the twin towers to collapse: "The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses. However, as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the buildings, it ignited much of the buildings' contents, causing simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings," Corley wrote. "Over a period of many minutes, this heat induced additional stresses into the damaged structural frames while simultaneously softening and weakening these frames. This additional loading and the resulting damage were sufficient to induce the collapse of both structures." In the section that deals with the collapse of the twin towers, the BPS says: "Because the aircraft impacts into the two buildings are not believed to have been sufficient to cause collapse without the ensuing fires, the obvious question is whether the fires alone, without the damage from the aircraft impact, would have been sufficient to cause such a collapse…it is impossible, without extensive modeling and other analysis, to make a credible prediction of how the buildings would have responded to an extremely severe fire in a situation where there was no prior structural damage." The Windsor Building fire in Madrid provides an excellent real-world model to show how the twin towers should have responded to "an extremely severe fire" alone. The Windsor Building has central support columns in its core section, which is similar to the construction of the twin towers. This central core is what supported the gravity load of the towers. In the Windsor Building fire, the fire is thought to have started on the 21st floor late on Saturday night, Feb. 12. The upper floors were consumed by intense fire for at least 18 hours. The fire moved down the building and burned the entire structure. The fire is reported to have burned temperatures of at 800 degrees Celsius, or nearly 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit. There was a partial collapse of parts of the top 10 floors as the trusses, which went from the core columns to the outside walls, appear to have failed. It is important to note, however, that the lower floors did not collapse and the core section is still standing with a construction crane on the roof. The complete failure of the 47-central support columns in the twin towers of the WTC is one of the key outstanding questions about what caused their collapses. It would be expected that they should have remained standing even if some of the floor trusses failed. There is no explanation for what caused the huge box columns to fail. Two of the contractors who removed the rubble told AFP that they had found molten steel in the 7th basement level when they reached the bedrock where the columns were based. There is no explanation for what caused such intense residual heat to be found at the base of the twin towers, although some experts have pointed to powerful explosives. By press time, Dr. Corley had not responded to questions about the BPS findings and the questions raised by the Windsor Building fire. Corley's assistant told AFP that he had just gone to the airport and would not be returning to the office until Feb. 28. The Windsor Building was built from 1973-1979 in an area of Madrid where commercial property was developed on land owned by Rio Tinto, the international mining giant. This is thought to be the reason why the Windsor Building carries the name of the British royal family. The WTC towers were completed in the early 1970's. The Windsor Building housed the offices of Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, a multinational financial services company, which occupied 20 floors of the tower. The area where the Windsor Building stands is a mixed residential and commercial area known as the AZCA zone. Dubbed 'Madrid's Manhattan', AZCA contains a cluster of modern skyscrapers. The tallest one is the Torre Picasso, a 516-foot tower built in 1989. The Picasso Tower was designed by Minoru Yamasaki, who also designed the twin towers of the WTC. Unión de Explosivos Río Tinto, S.A., owns the land where the tower stands. Finis The Windsor Building (Edificio Windsor) in Madrid, Spain burned "like a torch" for more than 18 hours from Saturday night, Feb. 12. After burning in an uncontrolled inferno the tower's core columns remain standing with a huge construction crane on top of the roof. This evidence supports the fact that prior to 9/11 NO steel-framed high- rise had ever collapsed due to fire. On 9/11 the 47-story WTC 7, owned by Larry Silverstein, collapsed at 5:25 p.m. There is no explanation for why the WTC 7 collapsed except for the fact that Silverstein told PBS that the decision was made to "pull it" and "we watched it come down." See also: The Collapse of WTC 1: Madrid Exposes a Fundamental Flaw The 9/11 WTC Collapses: An Audio-Video Analysis What Really Happened
Credit for illustration: deesillustration.com
www.newworldpeace.com/coverup5a.html Professor of fire prevention engineering states the jet fuel could not have caused the collapse alone, and asks for a full investigation. We must try to find out why the twin towers fell. -------------------------------------------------------------- THE JET fuel fires in the World Trade Center towers did not bring down those two buildings. Indeed, the fuel burned up in minutes. Why, then, did the towers and their 44-story neighbor, WTC-7, which was not struck by a plane, collapse? It's a question that bears generally on fire safety, the safety of building occupants and firefighters and the vulnerability of our buildings to terror by fire. I expected the National Response Team of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would participate in an investigation that I surely thought would follow the Sept. 11 attacks. The ATF has the authority to investigate arson involving interstate commerce. Certainly, these horrendous attacks should be construed as arson. I later learned that the ATF was told it would not be needed. I expected the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to head the investigations. It's noted for its thoroughness, objectivity and know-how with respect to large-scale disasters. But it was relegated to flight issues dealing with the two hijacked aircraft and the aircraft debris. The buildings were not to be within the scope of their investigation. There is an ad hoc investigative group, which is sponsored by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the American Society of Civil Engineers. But it does not have the full resources that might be made available, nor does it control the site. I became increasingly concerned the more I learned about the investigative process, or lack of one. The site teams at the towers were focused on rescue, retrieval and cleanup, not investigation. The structural steel pieces, coded with chalk and stamped numbers to indicate their building location, were being sold as scrap metal. The evidence needed to identify the cause of the collapse and intensity of the fire was being lost. Had the NTSB or ATF been involved, the site would have been secured, evidence documented and protected. Remember how the pieces of TWA Flight 800 were brought up from the ocean bottom off Long Island and restored to preserve structural evidence essential to identifying the cause of the 1996 crash? WTC family survivors headed by Sally Regenhard last month urged New York City and federal authorities to launch a formal investigation into the collapse of the towers. As Ms. Regenhard said, her son did not die in a fire because of a collapsed building. High-rise buildings are required to survive the impact of a modern commercial aircraft. Why shouldn't that include survival from the fire that would erupt? Building codes require that the structural elements of high-rise building withstand a three-hour test in a furnace. Why did the buildings collapse in less time? Was this terrorist attack an isolated event that had no bearing on high-rise vulnerability or on the consequences of fire in general? The scrapping of steel debris should stop immediately, and all of it that has been sold should be impounded. The site should be controlled to conform to standard investigation practices. All records, video recordings and information about those killed and injured should be secured for analysis. We can learn a great deal from this catastrophe. Many died because they did not expect buildings to collapse. Firefighters should not be the guinea pigs for determining the structural dynamics of buildings caught in flames. The potential for a building's collapse should be known before it happens. Fire safety needs to be incorporated into the normal design process of buildings. The federal government has a role in developing the needed technology for fire safety. If there ever was a role for government that transcends political ideologies, this is one. At least let's start with a formal investigation of the WTC collapse. By James Quintiere Originally published January 3, 2002 Copyright © 2002, The Baltimore Sun James Quintiere is the John L. Bryan Professor of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland, College Park. . E-Mail Address: dgann@jhsph.edu Posted on the Independent Newswire on 4 January 2002 Ref: www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=114160 www.firescience.com/fires...ces/authors/quintere.aspx James G. Quintiere ...earned a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering in 1970. He has more than 25 years experience in fire research and its applications, is a professor in the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland. Professor Quintiere has conducted research in the study of fire growth in structures and on materials, has developed test methods for ignition and flames spread, studied smoke movement in full-scale and scale model systems, and has developed theoretical solutions and simulation models for fire behavior and material response to fire. He has more than 100 publications in the field, and is currently Chairman of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (the world organization for fire research and its applications). In addition to his research, he has helped to analyze a number of fire disasters including the Dupont Plaza fire and the more recent Branch Davidian Fire near Waco, Texas.
bumping that; for later read. Tnx
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThis skyscraper was SPECIFICALLY designed and built, with special materials, to withstand a direct hit from a plane....
#179. To: FormerLurker (#167)
That's about it though, other than your mastery of that character trait, you are nothing but a naive little kid who's all grown up and can't understand why those bad mooselums hate us for our freedom, yet swallows that tale as if it came from God Himself.
#180. To: tom007 (#168)
I mean Law Enforcement found the passports in the hundred million tons of flaming debris the next day and had photos of them the day after that in all the newspapers.
#181. To: RickyJ (#169)
#182. To: litus (#166)
#183. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, Wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#173)
911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB.
#184. To: war, litus (#182)
And, the architects/engineers admitted that the 767 hits were outside of the parameters of their "707 scenario".
#185. To: Original_Intent (#184)
And you can of course present evidence
#186. To: Original_Intent (#184)
#187. To: war, tom007 (#180)
I mean Law Enforcement found the passports in the hundred million tons of flaming debris the next day and had photos of them the day after that in all the newspapers.
#188. To: Original_Intent (#183)
What I find dreadfully amusing is that after all of the mountains of evidence that have been dug up and presented that the shills keep trying to push the same discredited spin invented to keep people from concluding the deadly obvious:
#189. To: Original_Intent (#183)
Anyone who would defend such actions and attempt to explain it away is despicable and a sadly repellant excuse for a supposedly sentient entity.
Lord Acton
#190. To: Original_Intent (#187)
NONE OF THE SUPPOSED HIJACKERS NAMES SHOW UP ON ANY OF THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS
#191. To: war (#188)
But, tell me that the government brought the Towers down without being able to ptovide even a minimal amount of evidence thereunto and I'll call you a Moonbat.
#192. To: All (#188)
#193. To: RickyJ (#191)
The fact you can't see it says a lot about your intelligence level.
#194. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#195. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#196. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#197. To: war, FormerLurker, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, tom007, litus, christine, all (#186)
#198. To: Original_Intent (#187)
#199. To: Original_Intent (#197)
The buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 - which you can try to obfuscate but cannot refute.
#200. To: Original_Intent (#197)
A localized fire
#201. To: Original_Intent (#165)
That's right, if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in New York, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourise a sixty-five ton aircraft.
Lord Acton
#202. To: James Deffenbach (#201)
even though nothing remains of the plane
#203. To: IndieTX (#170)
(Edited)
can someone please post the picture of the girl in the window..i saw it on another thread but can not find it
"If I were going to construct a God I would furnish him with some ways and qualities and characteristics which the Present One lacks... He would spend some of His eternities in trying to forgive Himself for making man unhappy when He could have made him happy with the same effort and He would spend the rest of them in studying astronomy." ~ Mark Twain
#204. To: Original_Intent (#197)
Further in true shill fashion once it was pointed out that the box column center of the building is the primary load bearing structure of the building design you simply followed the fruit loop pattern of avoiding it, denying it, and the trying to shift the debate away from that which you cannot dispute.
#205. To: Original_Intent (#197)
The buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a 707 - which you can try to obfuscate but cannot refute.
#206. To: Original_Intent (#197)
once it was pointed out that the box column center of the building is the primary load bearing structure of the building design you simply followed the fruit loop pattern of avoiding it, denying it, and the trying to shift the debate away from that which you cannot dispute.
#207. To: Original_Intent (#197)
once it was pointed out that the box column center of the building is the primary load bearing structure of the building design you simply followed the fruit loop pattern of avoiding it, denying it, and the trying to shift the debate away from that which you cannot dispute.
#208. To: war, Original_Intent, Wudidiz, FormerLurker (#200)
A localized fire
#209. To: war, Original_Intent, Wudidiz, FormerLurker (#200)
A localized fire
#210. To: war, Original_Intent, Wudidiz, FormerLurker (#200)
A localized fire
NYC firefighter stated there was a "bomb in the building ... start clearing out"
#211. To: TwentyTwelve (#208)
#212. To: war (#200)
A localized fire ...
PHYSICAL CONSTANTS FOR INVESTIGATORS. by Tony Cafe. Reproduced from "Firepiont" magazine - Journal of Australian Fire Investigators. ...
www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html - 69k -
#213. To: Original_Intent (#197)
Paper and Wood are elements of a Class Alpha Fire and do not, even under ideal laboratory conditions, get hot enough to melt steel and there was insufficient quantities to even soften the steel as the steel girder framework acts like a heat sink dispersing the head throughout the structure and thus keeping the temperature down below the critical points.
#214. To: TwentyTwelve (#212)
According to the Journal of Australian Fire Investigators, kerosene ignites at around 444°F. .....In an oxygen deprived environment, higher temperatures cannot be reached.
#215. To: war (#211)
#216. To: war (#211)
#217. To: litus, War (#214)
#218. To: TwentyTwelve (#217)
Why, then, did the towers and their 44-story neighbor, WTC-7, which was not struck by a plane, collapse?
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